Erik: How did you first become involved in political organizing?

Marv: I got drafted in 1953 out of my senior year at Macalaster (College). And I had experiences in the Army that radicalized the shit out of me.

I was a DFL liberal...I'd never met a radical in my life. I hardly knew that they existed -just like the young people of today. I have to say when I'm teaching, after I get to know (the students) -wherever they are... I have to say to them the educational system has worked perfectly: you're totally ignorant. Totally ignorant of what really happened in American history and the history of dissent... And it ain't your fault.

Everybody's got deep private thoughts and feelings about justice, peace, spirituality... And the problem then becomes how you live out these deep yearnings for truth and justice in a public way. That's a real problem in America -otherwise you grow up schizophrenic.

So I was schizophrenic, I didn't know anything, and in the U.S. Army I got radicalized. I acted on my beliefs -such as they were at the time. To be moral in America is to be subversive. And they were forcing me to be subversive if I wanted to be a moral human being.

I did nineteen months...the last month in a stockade -first time in prison- and they threw my ass out, which was a wonderful day for me. It was one of the most exciting days of my life -to be thrown out of the Army. Absolutely liberating! And I've been looking for those liberating moments ever since.

I returned to Macalaster where I'd gone for a little over three years, and the Dean wanted to see me...And he said "We understand you had some difficulty in the Army. Would you like to tell us about it?"

(And when he said 'We' I knew they weren't including me in the "we" -and there was only one of "them". So I knew that the institution was speaking through the Dean.)

So I told them what had happened, and at the end of an hour long story he (the Dean) said "Wouldn't you like to go to Hamline, or St. Thomas, or the U? -very good schools...If you wish to come back to Macalaster, we suggest you go to the Veterans Administration and see a psychiatrist."

I was thinking "I thought they only did that in the Soviet Union!" but I discovered that they do it here, too. At any rate, I went out and saw a psychiatrist who listened to my stories, and he wrote a letter to the Dean which said that had he been subjected to the same circumstances that I was in the Army, he hoped he would have had the courage to do what I did. So they let me come back to Macalaster. And I never paid them for that summer. They took that out of my soul and I figured let them pay for it.

I transferred to the U in '56, and I was in a class called political psychology. The professor gave a test to all his students which he had given to avowed socialists in the 1930's. I was the only one in the class who scored the way the socialists did -and I didn't know I was a socialist! (Laughs.)

Then I joined the Student Peace Union, Students For Integration -took a couple of courses with Mulford Sibley (who's dead now)- and started hanging around the East Hennepin Bar, which no longer exists. Poets, artists, writers, Beats -Minnesota Beats. That's what we were. Reading Kerouac, Ginsberg...Black and white group of people. Women. Men. (Bob) Dylan, Dave Ray, Tony Glover -young musicians started to hang out with our crowd. It was a pretty interesting time. The 60's were about to happen.

In 1960 we were picketing Woolworths downtown, because of the student sit-in (for racial integration) in Greensborough, North Carolina. A number of us went downtown to lay some pressure on Woolworths, because they were getting the shit kicked out of them every day sitting at the lunch counter at Woolworths.

When the Freedom Rides happened in June '61, I thought "How come the Kennedys don't send Federal troops down there to protect those people?!" And I began -as a DFL liberal- to question that. The answers were coming fast. The Kennedys were much more interested in the Space Race than they were in RACE... racial justice. Camelot was a big myth.

I happened to be hitchhiking from St. Paul, walking through the campus at the U...a friend of mine who was the first hippie in Minneapolis was sitting on the steps of one of the buildings...and I said "What are you doing there? " He says "Going to a meeting on the Freedom Rides. Why don't you come in?" So I walked in.

Had I been a moment later, or earlier, I would have missed it -and I'd probably be selling shoes or something, who the hell knows? Which is what happens in everybody's life: you're at the right place at the right moment, and your whole life changes. So I went in, and a couple of days later I was on a bus with six other white Minnesotans headed for Jackson, Mississippi.

A hundred people had been busted already and they were in a variety of jails. We had an orientation in Nashville done by John Lewis who was SNCC president at that time, and Diane Nash...John's now a U.S. Congressman from Atlanta. And that night we were on the bus to Atlanta...six of us walked into what was then called the "Negro Waiting Room" at the Greyhound terminal in Jackson. Got arrested within fifteen minutes, taken out to the Jackson City Jail. We had a black lawyer defending us, a guy named Jack Young. And twelve white men -ten Baptists, one Methodist and one Presbyterian- found us guilty within fifteen minutes.

So we were convicted and sentanced to four months and a two hundred dollar fine -which we wouldn't pay. We did a week in the Jackson City Jail. And then a week later we were taken up to Mississippi State Penitentiary and put in Maximum Security where there were already forty-five black and white guys. Women were brought up three weeks later, and I had another watershed experience. Or what you might call a mountain-top experience.

I was lying in my cell the first night... I had a Quaker roommate... people were singing Freedom Songs and I was lying there listening because there were some incredible voices. (The SNCC Freedom Singers came out of that experience, and they toured the country.) For the first time in Mississippi history, they had integrated a cell block because of us. Because we were political. They wanted to isolate us...to punish us, and so-on. And as the people were singing I was crying -not because they were punishing us, but because of the nobility of everybody in there. And I thought there's no other place on Earth that I should be but right here, in this cell sharing the risks with these people... And that feeling was so profound that I've been doing it forty-two years now.

Erik: After you'd been radicalized, how did things develop from there?

Marv: After the Freedom Rides, I had an interest in Cuba -which I still have. I've been there three times and I teach a section about Cuba and Cuban-American relationships. So I joined an integrated Canada-to-Cuba Peace Walk for 17 months in '63 and '64. We walked 2,700 miles from Quebec to Miami. Got beat up, cattle-prodded, shot-at, jailed...And then one of our supporters bought us a boat, and we learned how to maneuver it on the ocean. The Coast Guard followed us wherever we went -stopped us for inspections. The FBI and the CIA were watching.

Finally after 17 months seven of us got on the boat and headed for Havana. The Coast Guard stopped us and confiscated the boat under orders from Secretary of State Dean Rusk. The next day and we went into the U.S. Attorney's Office for a sit-in, and they carried us out. We were exhausted by that time. So they grabbed the boat and removed us.

In 1987 I went to Cuba with the wife of Tony Bouza (who was police chief then) and a woman from W.A.M.M., and we were there for 13 days. Then I went again in 1993 with 175 North Americans from all over the U.S. And Castro met with us for four-and-a-half hours. And we looked at the institutions of the Revolution.

By 1964 I got seriously involved with Vietnam. (And this lasted) until the war ended in '75. I worked in Berkeley with the Vietnam Day Committee -with Jerry Rubin and many others. Then I went to L.A. and helped organize draft resistance, burning draft cards and so-on, which by 1967 was a Federal Offense. And we'd light 'em up every place we went!

And then I came home and started-up the Honeywell Project: Dec. 1968-1990. And in between, I worked with Minnesota farmers who were resisting a high-voltage power line...Helped start Northern Sun Alliance, which confronted NSP on nuclear power. (Started) a cultural group...who brought in visiting Chilean exiles and New Song groups. And there were many other things. Its all connected. Its NEVER single-issue.

So in late 1990 we started M.I.S.T. (Midwest Institute for Social Transformation) to do educational work, and that's what we're doing now.

Erik: The Honeywell Project was started to protest the manufacturing of cluster-bombs?

Marv: And other weapons systems. But we focused on cluster-bombs. Steel ball bearings inbedded in a steel shell and when it explodes the steel ball bearings shoot-out 2,200 feet-per-second. It's ariel terrorism.

(While we are talking, Marv hands me a piece of shrapnel. I turn it over-and-over in my hands trying to imagine pieces of metal cutting into human flesh.)

Marv: During Vietnam, we mobilized people all over the world against production of these weapons -focusing on executives and management. And then we had a lawsuit started in 1977 by the American Civil Liberties Union, because FBI informants were in our group for a three year period. And in groups associated with us. The White House was interested.

This (period of surveillance) went from 1969-1972. They admit to that. And since they are usually lying, you can guess it went further...

So there were FBI and Honeywell informants for a three year period that they admit to. So we had a lawsuit charging the management of Honeywell and the U.S. Justice Department / FBI with abridgement of our civil liberties. Settled in 1985 when the U.S. Government and Honeywell -never admitting thay they did anything wrong- gave us $70,000. Much too cheap. Really, we should have asked for $300,000, or half a million. To get us off their backs, they might have given it.

We took the entire $35,000 that Honeywell gave, and we sent it to the Quakers -the American Friends Services Committee- which had a SHOVELS FOR LAOS project. Because to this day peasants will put a hole in the earth in Indochina -North and South Vietnam; Cambodia; or Laos - and blow themselves up. And with a ten dollar shovel they can dig slower, and when they hit metal, they can STOP. So we saved lives.

Neither Honeywell, nor the U.S. Government would do anything about de-mining. And thousands of people have been maimed or killed by landmines and cluster-bombs.

I was just reading, there's an area in Vietnam that the Vietnamese are de-mining, and Vietnamese and Americans work side-by-side to plant trees. So we'll be involved with that somehow.

Honeywell tried to sell their entire conventional weapons division in 1989. I told the New York Times "Whoever buys it gets us in the deal." And they printed that -they had it in the Business Section in a little box.

So, six years after we stopped at Honeywell, we're at Alliant Techsystems in Hopkins. They couldn't sell their conventional weapons division, so they spun it off, and created a seperate business legally: Alliant Tech. They do over a billion dollars a year in business. They're the biggest producer of landmines in the U.S. Anti-personnel landmines that are connected to anti-tank landmines. And they say that they're doing it to "protect U.S. troops." We say, "What the hell are U.S. troops doing around the world?" They're not protecting the United States and its people! They're protecting corporate rape and plunder of other peoples' societies. And even generals -like Norman Schwartzkopf- say landmine production ought to be stopped!

Editor's Note: In 1997, The U.S. Federal Government sued AlliantTechsystems for exaggerating costs for a 1990 weapons contract. Alliant-Techsystems (formerly Honeywell) is accused of having fixed prices as the sole source of AT-4 Light Anti-Armor bazookas.

Marv: Alliant management says that they need to service their workforce. And we say that's a crock of shit! When you started Alliant, you had 1,400 Teamsters doing production. You only have 400 left -you threw away 1000 people, creating misery in 1000 Minnesota families. You don't give a hit about those people. The only thing YOU care about is the dollars.

And these are cost-plus contracts, which means [Alliant Tech] comes to a cost, whatever it costs them, and they add a profit. There's no risk. And the taxpayers pay for this. Its nothing more than a transfer of wealth from the Middle Class and poor people to already rich people. Its a subsidy to high tech industry. And the purpose is to protect corporate rape and plunder around the globe...And we stand in the way of that.

We're there every week at their headquarters in Hopkins. Seven to eight AM every Wednesday... In October we're going to block every door.

Erik: The Pentagon would like us to believe that it only uses "smart mines", and that these are perfectly safe. What is your position with regards to smart mines?

Marv: Well, you would have to say that dumb people make smart mines. And they claim that its 99% certain that (the mines) will self-destruct -by battery power. And I ask them are they thinking about human error?, and some of them say "yes", and some are just quiet.

A landmine that's self-destructing -or exploding- can't detect whether its [killing] a combatant, child, peasant, or what-have-you. They're scatterable. No one knows exactly where the mines are. And in certain areas...there's no such thing as a "safe" landmine with anti-personnel components.

Its all lies and obfuscation, as usual.

'Cause [Alliant Tech] are in it for the bucks, and they'll justify it anyway they can.

Besides, if the U.S. -the Number One power on Earth, and the only one truly GLOBAL power that the world has ever known- if the U.S. would ban the proudction, sale, and export of mines, other nations would follow.

Clinton's a Centrist; a Republican really. He says he's with us -but not until 1999 - with exceptions. That's centrism. He's a MORAL ZERO, as Daniel Berrigan would phrase it... I wouldn't vote for him if Jesse Helms were winning. 'Cause we already have Jesse Helms' foreign policy. And part of Jesse Helms' domestic policy -all in the name of the Democratic Party...

Erik: Do you think that The Honeywell Project played a part in Honeywell's decision to get rid of its conventional weapons plants?

Marv: There were a number of factors. Weapons production -what they call "defense production", we call it WAR production- is cyclical. It goes up and down...

In 1968, Honeywell had over 100,000 people. I went to their spring Shareholder's Meeting -they only had 50,000 left. I got up at the free microphone part and said "I noticed that you threw-away 50,000 or 60,000 people since '68. Have you ever thought about what happened to them? Did you ever give it a thought? And we were talking to you THEN about Peace Conversion with NO LOSS OF JOBS. Had you listened to us then, you'd probably have 150,000 people employed now, instead of 50. Making socially useful products."

They don't give a shit about the people they throw-away. Not for a moment!

[The Honeywell Project] were a factor...When Jim Ranier replaced Spencer in 1980 as CEO, he was interviewed by a business reporter at the Star-Trib, who said "What do you think of the Honeywell Project?" And he said "I've assessed this situation. After many years of repeated demonstrations at Corporate Headqarters, the moral of the people who work at Headquarters was SO LOW that my way of healing that was to increase Honeywell Foundation gifts to the community -to try and raise the morale."

The day that Honeywell announced that it was reducing its dependence on the weapons business, I heard it on the radio and I drove to our office -quickly- "the phone's going to be ringing with media." There were only three calls...

So I then called everybody, and eleven news sources came by to do interviews. And every one of them said "You people didn't have any effect on this decision, it was a business decision." So I would say "Do you routinely interview marginal radicals? How come you're here today? If we had no effect, how come everybody's here?" Blink. Blink. Blink. They didn't know what to say.

We WERE a factor. I'm going to do a book about this one of these days, because I've got a lot of documents. And memories...

So what we're doing at Alliant is an extension of what we started in 1968, so 28 years later...we're gonna WIN this one. We're going to deprive them of their sexual kick -or whatever kick it is that management gets from blowing the legs off little kids and peasants.

Erik: You said that you were involved in the Northern Sun Alliance. What exactly was the issue with the power lines, and how did that develop?

Marv: Well, the farmers began protesting around 1976 or '77 as rural electrification co-ops, the REA's, were pushing the line from North Dakota across western and central Minnesota towards Mankato. NSP was involved at the southern part of it. We didn't understand why so many farmers...

(At this point the phone rings.)

Marv: Where was I? Oh, yeah, the farmers...So finally, a friend who lived in St. Cloud called and said "Its an incredible movement up here, you should send somebody to check it out." And so we did, and we got involved. In 1977 we started Northern Sun Alliance. And during that period -until about 1981- we were involved with the farmers, helping to resist that line. I got busted twice on that.

Democratic and Republican governors forced the line through. And even the EPA has agreed that high voltage power lines are a danger to human and animal health. The farmers knew that. We put together a little coalition of American Indians -AIM people (the American Indian Movement), farmers, and ourselves. And got to be members of the family up there.

Its the same conflict: you're confronting corporations wherever you go, wherever you turn. America exists to maximize corporate profit -especially Fortune 500 companies. And nothing serious in America is going to change in terms of peace and justice until that fact is changed and dealt with seriously by millions of people. THEN we'll see some REAL changes. Not until then.

I was involved with Northern Sun Alliance until about 1980-81 when we revived Honeywell Project. It worked the way radical groups work everyplace: a small group of people get together... you do research. You begin to do actions. You raise a little money. Make your decisions democratically and just go do it.

Erik: So the Honeywell Project had stopped for a while?

Marv: Honeywell Project fell apart three times during the 22 year history: 1971, 1975...and we put it together each time and went on. Because the average staying power of protest is maybe six-eight months and what it takes is a lifetime. Many, many people taking a little part of the wheel and then turning it.

Erik: What were some of the major actions with the Honeywell Project?

Marv: Well, we were building carefully. In '69 [we held] small demonstrations that kept going. One with about 40 people, and then about six months later we had 65, and then 200, then 2500-3000 people at their annual Shareholders' Meeting of April, 1970.

Then it falls apart and we reconvene until the war ended. And then in the 80's with the creation of the big nuclear weapons movement we revived (the Honeywell Project) and started small...started blocking doors. In November 1982 the cops arrested maybe 36 people. In April '83, they arrested 150 -including Erica Bouza the wife of the Chief. October '83, just before deployment of the Euro-missiles (Pershing and Cruise) maybe 2000 people were at an action and police arrested 577.

We had about 100 trials. 16 acquitals -which is a pretty high rate.

And that went on until 1990. The cops made 2,100 arrests at Hoenywell Headquarters from 1982-1989. But that put some real pressure on them.

The CEO ran a piece in the Tribune which was reprinted in Newsweek where he urged that the US and USSR consider dismantling the Pershing and Cruise. Well we wrote his piece for him. And then Honeywell spent half a million dollars putting on a forum called "Prospects for Peacemaking" -after 1,100 arrests. And they spent 3 or 400,000 dollars on it.

So where we act there's a reaction. You have to sustain it, but there is a reaction. They're tender about their image and we were putting their image in focus for people to see.

Some people quit. But we forced them into a position of urging (the government) for the dismantling of some of the nukes. Its a major accomplishment -all done with very little money. Management people I knew couldn't figure it out. How can they go at it year-after-year without getting paid? 'Cause they're all making BIG BUCKS! How can they do it for nothing? We understand them better than they understand us.