this is the first thing i believe should be said: that no one knows if they are saved. indeed the Lord said that we need faith in Him in order to be saved, then indeed only those who believe in Christ as Lord [the promised Messiah (plz read Psalm 22. maybe then u will c)] will be saved. however, this does not preclude *your knowing* that *you* are saved... this is only known by the Lord God Almighty.

Ecclesiates 9:1 "So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's Hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him."

Harmonizing verses with Ecc. 9:1 - All Glory to God!

Old Testament:
2 Samuel	12:12-23
Psalms	31:24, 33:20, 119:147
Proverbs	11:7
Proverbs	23:17-18
Ecclesiastes	9:1-4, 9:12-17
Isaiah	40:31
Isaiah	42:1-4
Jeremiah	29:11
New Testament:
Acts	23:6, 24:15, 26:6-7
Romans	4:12, 4:18, 5:2, 6:4-5, 6:16, 8:9-11, 8:19, 8:24-25, 12:12, 15:4
1 Corinthians	10:12, 13:12-13
2 Corinthians	1:10b, 5:21, 12:3-4
Galatians	2:20, 5:5
Ephesians	2:12, 4:4, 4:12-14
Philippians	3:12-14
Colossians	1:4-5, 1:23, 1:27
Titus	3:4-7
1 Thessalonians	1:3, 5:8
2 Thessalonians	2:16
Titus	1:1-2

All of these speak of our hope in the Lord - He did do all the work, of this there is no doubt (I am not boasting - I mean that this is a fact that is certain and independent of whether I, or you, or others believe - it has happened - He did do all the work of Salvation) - and so we have hope that since the LORD opened our eyes to His Son, then we hope that He is doing a good work in us. Can the clay see what the Potter is doing? (Of course there is evidence of this work - we grow in the faith, and more importantly, we start to obey! ("Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Cor. 7:19) How I keep sinning, and yet know that Jesus is Lord is an indication of my "leprosy" - but only God can cure me of this "disease." ...and I mean for all time - i.e. to be forgiven. So if I stop, then I am obeying, and so my hope may grow to a level of assurance - but not of certainty. How can I know?? Am I the Judge? And aren't we told not to judge? Indeed... all we know is whether we, or others, are on the right track. But where or whether that track eventually leads to the LORD's rest (aka Salvation = His Sabbath) *only* the Lord God Almighty has decided that. He is Sovereign - ALONE.

This is a condition we (believers) must meet in order to be saved. This condition is given soley by God. There are two births: one in the flesh, and the other, for the elect of God, in the Spirit.

2/14/04

Acts 23:6
Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

Paul was being persecuted for standing for the Lord Jesus Christ. In his witness he clearly states that believers have hope. This is the only real hope there is. In Christ is found reality. (Col. 2:17) And so all other hope is fake, empty, and leads to death.

Philipians 3:15-16 "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."

A few days ago i got intot his discussion and was told that that person does KNOW that they are saved. They quoted 1 John 5:13:

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

I looked at it and looked at it until it struck me, the author said "may know." I realized that this was in fact in alignment with how God has opened my eyes. So I replied to them (this was all posted in a Christian newsgroup) and so far no reply to my comment has been given. Maybe they are now ignoring me? I don't know. If they reply I will post that here as well.

Now it's been a few days and so I thought maybe I should look into the ancient Greek words that were used to communicate the meaning "may know."

My look into "may know"

1 John 5:13

tauta egraya umin ina eidhte oti zwhn ecete aiwnion, toiV pisteuousin eiV to onoma tou uiou tou qeou.

My transcription to English:

Tauta egrapsa umin ina eidete oti choen exete aionion, toiv pisteuousin eiv to onoma tou uiou tou theou.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT):

These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.

NIV Translation:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Bibleworks 95 Information:

pisteu,ousin verb part pres act dat masc 2nd per pl , from pisteu,w impf. evpi,steuon� fut. pisteu,sw� 1aor. evpi,steusa� pf. pepi,steuka( pass. pepi,steumai� plpf. pepisteu,kein� 1aor. pass. evpisteu,qhn (1) as primarily an intellectual evaluation believe; (a) w. what one is convinced of added as an obj. believe (in), be convinced of (JN 11.26b); (b) as an evaluative orienter, using o[ti or the acc. and inf. believe that (AC 9.26; 15.11); (c) as having confidence in what is spoken or written, using the dat. believe, give credence to, think to be true (JN 2.22); (d) as having confidence in a pers., using the dat. believe, give credence to someone (MK 16.14); (2) as primarily a relig. commitment, esp. w. God or Christ as the obj. of faith believe (in), trust; (a) w. the obj. in the dat. have faith in, believe (AC 16.34); (b) esp. denoting the exercise of saving faith, w. the obj. expressed by using eivj or evpi, and the acc. believe in or on (JN 3.16; AC 9.42); (c) as denoting relying on God for help have confidence, believe (MT 21.22); (3) as committing someth. to someone entrust, trust (LU 16.11); pass. as having something committed to someone be entrusted with (RO 3.2).

I also have a page on election as further evidence of our status as believers. We are assured -> allowed some measure of confidence -> we have trust and faith in the Lord that we are saved -> which yields some measure of emotional security. But no where is there given to us, absolute certainty: for many are called, but few are chosen. May God richly bless you, in Jesus' name, amen.

Sabbath, July 30^th @ 4:24 PM EST USA
Indeed if there is any verse that makes it clear then this one speaks volumes. The LORD blessed me to find it today [in fact Romans 8:19-25 had a plethora of supporting (encouraging) verses].

Romans 8:24

24. ... but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

This is clearly speaking about those who say they know they are saved. Aren't they really saying that they have, in their possession, the faith that God gives to an elected person which makes them saved? Yes indeed. But clearly Romans 8:24 says that this is not hope. It can't be since they already have it! No one can hope for something they already have! (Also commented on with respect to "hope.")

This is why I always say:

Saturday evening, 10:41 PM EST USA
I always wondered about whether my understanding of the word "righteous" (in Ecc. 9) does indeed mean those who have come to faith in Christ. Recently the LORD blessed me to remember this verse: "The righteous shall live by faith." So I did a check and found it in Romans 1:17, but it is also a reference to Habakkuk 2:4.

So it is abundantly clear - no more proof is needed. From Ecc. 9:1-4, about the righteous not knowing if they are saved or not - this means no Christian knows whether God is saving them or not ... for we live by faith.