Rice Noodles & Shrimps

Friday, July 13th 2001: The lady executive chef comes into the kitchen with a clear plastic bag. In it, supposedly, there was some Fresh Rice Noodles. I refuse to let it in, and said: "we cannot use it here". The lady gets upset, and as always, she calls my boss at the Kashrut organization, to get a Yes. My opinion is usually doesn't count. (I hardly say No with out discussing a matter with my superiors); rarely, I was back-upped. Even in events that it was clear I have the right decision.
As long I said Ok to things - I was a Good Mashgiach.
Back to the noodles, I explained to my boss what I am suspicious and concern about, and for my surprise he told the chef not to use the product.

Some background: dealing often with Asian products, we somehow got a WebSite, created by Rabbi Raphael Meyer, who said to be countable and reliable. His lists became a guide for us. Nothing was questionable.
http://asiarecipe.com/kosher1.html:

Rice Noodles
Thin, dried rice noodles are made from rice flour and can be found in Asian groceries. These noodles come in two thickness: one is the size of cellophane noodles and the other even thinner. You need only to soak them in water before stir frying with other foods. The noodles are sold in one pound packages separated into four bundles.(kosher without supervision but is has to be made of plain ingredients like water salt, bisulphate's, rice or wheat.)

Rice Noodle Sheets
Fresh or dried rice noodles are made from ground rice and water spread on a flat surface and steamed into sheets. Rice noodle sheets are found in Chinese grocery stores; they must be kept refrigerated. (recipe found on the Chinese page)(kosher without supervision but is has to be made of plain ingredients like water salt, bisulphate's, rice or wheat.)

"Kosher Without Supervision" it says. Base on that I was told to allow things like it ("made of plain ingredients") into the kitchen. It is also important to re-mention that I struggled, almost, daily with problems the chef caused; and almost always, my decisions were ignored. What brought tension to the working area, and I could not perform my work properly. Even my limited experience was disregarded. I felt pretty often in self-defense, Both from the chef, and from my own boss. As I used to say: We suppose to protect the Kashrut from the Chefs; But we are actually protecting the chef from the Kashrut.

Here is an Email I sent to my boss (edited):

Rice Noodles & "OTHER" products @ "Fong Inn Too Inc." (Sun, 15 Jul 2001)

Rabbi, Shavua Tov

As the Rabbi suggested, I had some good & productive time in China Town today. The main mission was to check this place: "Fong Inn Too Inc.", which J. said they sale ONLY Rice Noodles, And... to the Rabbi's Question She said, the is no "Treif"(?)...

The Store address is: 46 Mott St. (Between Bayard St. & Pell St.) Tel# 212-962-5196

My Findings:
In addition to all their Beans (Soft, Hard, white Dry, Fried, Soy, Sprouts) Products. And, In addition to all their Rice (Cake, Noodle, Sweet Powder, Plain)... Etc. Etc. Etc.....
(For my Questions, The Small Chinese Lady said) They Cook in the same pots - SHRIMP NOODLES. "But there is no taste of it in the Rice Noodles". The Shrimp Noodle are made Rice Noodle + pieces of Dry Shrimp (She showed me the product, & said it is very good).

Other products they make and pack on premises, we probably got (according to J.) products from there before...; And those plain innocence Rice Warps/Noodles & other prdcs. That Basically do not need Hashgacha, are being made in those privately stores' kitchens, where they are cooked with OTHER stuff, in absolutely Non-Kosher environment.

What should we do NOW?
& In the Future, with this kind of Problems &/or Products?



PS.

It is not my way, to talk not favorly about anyone, without a bit of "Caf Z'chut". But, I won't be impressed, if "She" will say she didn't know....
First... Just because, I don't believe her.
Second... Specially in this business (Kashrut)... If you care - You ask! (Allow me to doubt, she asked).
Third... Rabbi! would you like to guess which product is printed, in the invoice (as part of the all product list), RIGHT UNDER our "Rice Noodle"??? Correct!!! "Shrimp Noodle" (here is the ** receipt)**.

Oh! Maybe I did find a small "Caf Z'chut".
She ALWAYS get a way with everything... in her Nice way of putting things.

(Sigh)


PS2
The other "Noodle" store J. mention, & I went to check, "on the SouthEast corner of Lafayette/Canal", I couldn't find.

After this incident, we had a triple meeting (my boss, another Rabbi (said to be an expect in ingredients and processes), and myself). It was the first time the Rabbi saw Rabbi Meyer's lists. The rabbi was surprise to see we really count on Rabbi Meyer. Even my own boss wasn’t sure exactly how do we know Rabbi Meyer. But anyhow, The guest rabbi allowed continue using Dry Rice Noodles without Hashgacha. And in the same time marked few question marks, and "Xs" on other product on Rabbi Meyer's lists.

Conclusion: Not everything that said to be Kosher – IS.
It is not the product. It is the way it is being made.

During my research to find other sources who talks about "Non-Kosher Rice Noodles", I found "Tsue Chong Co." from Seattle, Washington. for most of their products they are under the supervision of Va’ad HaRabanim of Greater Seattle.
Check the Vaad's supervision product/company list; Under the title "Miscellaneous Products" you will see that Tsue Chong Co. produces various kinds of noodles*. On the right column there is a note: "*The rice noodles are not Kosher".

[I actually saw it for the first time on the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle's website, on the "Guide to Jewish Washington" - KASHRUT INFORMATION's page.


I was very very curious to know what is the problem with these Rice Noodles?
I called the Vaad, and spoke with the Executive Director: Rabbi Aharon Brun-Kestler (Dec 16 2003), who agreed to be quoted.

Rabbi Brun-Kestler said that even though other Colleagues and the OU are saying Rice Noodles are Kosher without Hashgacha, the Rabbi's impression is that there IS a problem. And the problem is that where they cook Rice Noodles, they also make Shrimps noodles in the same equipment. Rabbi Brun-Kestler said that even Mr. Lee, from Tsue Chong Co. says: cooking shrimps noodle in the same equipment IS Common.

I told Rabbi Brun-Kestler my own experience. We both agreed that we are probably in the minority in this regard. What a pity.

I also asked if there is a different between Fresh and Dry, and Rabbi Brun-Kestler said that in Tsue Chong Co. they make Both!

In today's Kashrut business, it is beyond my comprehend WHY there are Rabbis that insist Oking items that there is a doubt about them. See also the Morrel problem.



[A Chinese shrimp rice noodle soup]

It's a simple bowl of rice noodle with deep pork fat - It also worth looking at the pictures this guy took

The combination of traditional "Pad Thai" (rice stick noodles + large cooked shrimp)

Pumpkin Rice Noodle - Clean pumpkin... Soak dry shrimps... Soften the rice noodle with hot water...

***

"Spring Rolls" are similar product [How Does it looks] [Solar power doing the work (Drying them)] [Mostly handwork and rice husk fires]


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