Site hosted by Angelfire.com: Build your free website today!

THE FANTAIL PIGEON HOBBY/new* bottom-ARGALL 1955 MODELS!!

THE RUMOR BIN!

My Favorite Web Sites

Angelfire - Free Home Pages
JIM ERVIN/THE DIXIE FANTAIL CLUB AND THE NATIONAL GENEPOOLE
ESTATE LOFTS, HOME OF RARE & STANDARD COLORED FANTAILS
ESTATE LOFTS on NETSCAPE
D Y N A M I C L O F T S AND THE CANADA CONNECTION/PAUL POLLY/ CCFC
FANTAIL FIRE TALK PAGE TWO..COMING SOON ANOTHER ARENA RENDERING....
HERE YOU WILL SEE A PICTORIAL OF "ATTITUDE" by BOB VINCENT,and, TEXT EXPLANTION by POLLY/VINCENT


THE IDEAL FANTAIL OF THE FUTURE.

The birds have the answers; We expect that the breeding pen is where the bottom line lies?

The 'pieces analogy' applies to our present attempt to access a meat & feather production?

The ability to SELECT properly, to understand 'Prepotency' and the equations required can easily explaine ones ability to produce meat and feather, as so far, depicted in the 'Futera 2000'!

The Ideal is something we want to strive for;Not, something we have already produced. Futura, means exactly that ... The Future...Fantail. We must endeavor to shoot for what ever we see in minds eye...WE should not rest on our Laurels.. but, forge ahead.and, as well, our young people..Ervin said it...Too the moon...

The Genepoole has several, very significant concerns; but, like everyone else; does LIKE the latest drawings! His concerns , are those of others, which will be addressed by the Board Chairman!

The Genepoole, however has concerns that are beyond the scope of the present drawings. IE No one is in a position to give a HYPOTESIS, and then substantiate it, with a scientific report. Because, we have documented only for outcrosses to make fantails in Rare colorations!

The fact that ERVIN is carrying this into the body and type requirements, is Phenominal. Just because we cannot back up what we are doing to the meat, does not justify our younger fanciers, or anybody else; to say "IT CANNOT BE DONE"

The Genepoole, will not step aside; but endeavor to create something which we can substantiate.We will either do it as a piece project, which we are doing; OR, we will do it showing how, the interdependence of the requirements, therefore, the dependence of the individual pieces to produce an effect, which, has NOT been seen in any other AVES PIGEON BREED TO DATE! (ERVIN STUDY)

The Genepoole has selected pieces from the genepool of several breeds, and selected, in this endeavor for some years.

I don't expect that anyone presently can say , exactly what they used, or how they POINT blended those pieces derived from meat & feather of other breeds. but, We can say, for, our own 'MINDS EYE", that we maybe have put the puzzle together, or closely, enough to realize; that it can be done.

But, we would ask, that fanciers at large, give us a bit more time to prepare , what has been asked? OR maybe we can just Show what can be done with: "PREPOTENCY AND SELECTION"! The, bottom line here is that we can take the pieces of genome and select or manipulate phenotypes with the statistical possibilities within the genepoole!This means, what ever we see in minds eye can be achieved; Even if we DO NOT see the requirements;We can see pieces from such breed crosses ! THE 'PIECES , at present, from other breeds; cannot be easily identified; still, we can select, through our own definetion , or identification Of these , said "PIECES; which when added together, in a very specific way{like the isulin molecule/which has chemical properties correct/still did not work when injected/Salk got the Nobel Peace Prize , because he got the molecule to work..by correcting the physical properties} This is parallel to ERVINS "ATTITUDE" THEORY, AND THE WORK OF LANCE CHRISTIENSON ON PHYSICAL PROPERTIES OF MEAT AND FEATHER , WITHIN THE CONFINES OFANATOMY OF 'AVES" }(defined by the laws of genetics) We can produce the Arena Futura!!

It is here, that Jim Ervin would like to set to notes, and verify, maybe one requirement with Scientific type of proof.

Again, ERVIN, has placed this thought :A concern of Ervin's;that, the low body's that are produced from the Genepools' crosses(both for color & structure)are reversions to 'wild type'!That, said reversions, also have a horizontal plane of wild type; that legs do not lock in;as well are far more incorrect than those on fantail today in the smaller body size..

Now, then..:What is the next step, to put away such a concern, realized in the early crossing to Modena?And, yes there is also the concern as to how the "refiners will handle this new look..? Yes! But, it is the responsibility of the genepoole to NOT hand over the reversion genotypes for color or type; until the pieces we want are set in our Family; and the unlocked legs and horizontal line is corrected to fantail type Requirements! hence, the Forefathers saying: Use your best for such crosses! As well, I want to see the good ones, not some crossed thing, We don't know how to handle; nor, do we want too!Bottom line, Partner, They won't use them til they are there! This 'CONCERN is hereby nullified?

The second 'Concern', is that we cannot scientifically verify that OUR 'NEW TYPE' (ARENA RENDERING') can be produced! I can see, and understand, that if we are in the earlier stages of developement; that this would be a primary concern? And, we used to say:" it depends where we are in a Project? IE What we can presume later on , is, not presumable earlier on?

Still, until someone produces a 70 pointer, over the present 55 pointers(a quote from the Messiah) As well, there has been said to be some 70 pointers around? Still, until they are placed in the Show, with a bit of competition, a Judge; why then..We may be able to assume the Futera is possible; but, til we see it.. I wouldn't believe it either!

But, if there are those who would further challenge the ability for one to produce such fantails from color crosses; then we direct their attention, to the FOREFATHERS. And, be taking a look at the history of the developement of the Fantail fro m Hindi forward to date. Now, tell me! WE CANNOT DO IT!

To those who seek the answer, from a scientific standpoint;We cannot direct you! You see, this was done in a quest for coloration,...NOT type! It just happened...and, they had no such notes when the Germans developed the colors in them 'FIELD PIGEONS' The proof is in the Pudding! Which flavor do you like....?? MCK



Below is Bob VINCENT's in line VIEWS!
Bob has worked with Bill O'Dell in the past on getting a proper drawing. It is Bob's hope that with the 'techno era' at hand ;we will go from mechanical drawings to '3 Dimension'!!NICE JOB FANCIERS!! We love it! Now, to produce one to inspire the Fancy at large..Someone said it would take one hundred years? OK, so it may, but, then, there's the 70 pointers the "Messiah" says exists, still, there is 'REVERSION" or what you sow, so , shall you reep..." IE crosses in to other breeds... To the 100 years :we say, god willing, We may do it after 46 years?? McK

Here's a thought, I might have know: Bottom line, ......At this point in my Life; at this point in my breeding programs, we think we might know more than what we are telling. IE IT is not the 40 plus years of breeding, selection, that makes us think we know more; it is the fact that we have made four modena infusions( and one more on the way) (the larktails and blond tails are separate 'enity's', at this point, but very interesting for the refined lines and head, wings etc. But, let us speak of fact one! No body has been able to locate a breed that might contribute to our General Requirements. The pieces, however, must be there to do anything they have done in the past 100 year(the forefatheres) I expect that, we expect to utilize pieces from the "FOUR" Modena infusions, and, in time, add the dainty refined characteristics of the Lark, which are wild type phenotype; which are clearly defined in the Fantail Standard. (refined, beak, cere, wattles, smallness: without loss of undercarriage!; which Undercarriage is NOT that of wild Type, nor are the Legs, that of wild type; nor do we want parallel to the ground, rather, perpendicular to the ground! )

It is then a Selection process, a family building Process...from the genepool at hand today, that will establish a genetic combination of the General requirements in the Fantail Standard. The dream, the reality, is nothing but all the pieces we want, with the discarding of those we DO NOT want(But, here is where, the greatest have , all but stopped their continued improvement/refinement; because, they maybe, discard pieces they DO NOT recognize??

It is our contention, That, we can take Fantails, pure, unadulterated, fantails and cross them to the several different families, which contain outcross blood, and, produce The FUTERA. You see, that is what is in mind's eye, always has been..and deeper pockets, peak crests, feathers on their feet, bad color are all part of the mix. Now, we will, also, use the same theory to produce recessive reds, whose color will be representative of a quality not seen in fantails, as well, any color or marking so desired! After all, Is this not how this all started? MCK To my Non friend: I definetly don't know any more, at this time: but, should I show, no amount of showmanship will put us under!


Vincent's "NEXT STEP" It is a big one...Mechanical drawings!!SCALE below=12"=0.5 inches?/ and heading for "TECHNO"!!

More comparison studies from Paul POLLY
View of the "BERG YELLOW" as amended, by JOHN ARENA's Creativity; and National Board Chairman's B Vincent & Mr Paul POLLY!!
BOB VINCENT ON his personal image OF THE ideal SEE LATEST STUDY GUIDE ON ESTATE Lofts LINK. !!
THE OVERVIEW of Vincents'
THIS ideal fantail(ideal12.jpg) is named "SENATOR" HOWEVER, confirmation is a requirement! Do we think that this is showing some of the "ATTITUDE" that the DIEMER CHAMPION , shows US!You know this shows us what a show fantail should be doing! I mean, it is up on it's toes! How many fat ones get up on their toes? How many small 'up types'? We did not touch out the neck protrusion, nor did we the thigh lines! This is a "classical BULL" WE think that the comments made by several(we can name if you give permissions)Fanciers

For what its worth here's my 2 cents worth. This is what I would do to the last version of scott's yellow to approach the ideal,,1) GET SOME BODY THAT CAN DRAW BETTER THAN ME 2) incorporate the following changes...... WHY MUST WE THINk OF THE FANTAIL AS A BALL WITH A TAIL GLUED ON THE END<<<< THATS AN ABOMINATION IN MY OPINION<<<< THE TAIL SHOULD BE SLOTTED INTO THE BIRDS BACK AT ABOUT 1:30 O'CLOCK, not bolted on at 3 PM O'Clock ,,, I love the information being excanged,,,, its GREAT,,,, keep up the good work ARENA!!!!!!! Maybe you will get a concensus that has NEVER been achieved in the fancy!!!!!!!!! Even Ostrander and Bolton lamented not having a picture with the standard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An earlier comparison study..

This is JOHN Arena's g-version!
This is the DIEMER GRAND CHAMPION WHITE from page 80, the 1985 FANTAIL SPECIAL.(UNTOUCHED) This Fantail shows us a power mode. up on its toes. More comments above with the picture above..ideal2.jpg...
Thank you for visiting my page at Angelfire. Please come back and visit again!

WATCH THIS PAGE for more FROM JOHN ARENA and his Picture Rendering of the Ideal fantail in meat and feather, verses the previous Sketches!(A POMMER CHAMPION is ARENA"S next adventure in Rendering) O"dell says: 'WE are on a ROLL BOYS'!!!

Subject: Re: Brian...Pogue... Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:38:19 -400 GMT From: "BPOGUE" Organization: Beef Improvement Ontario To: Jim Ervin , R T McKee WOW I'VE MISSED A LOT. I MANAGED 2 BIG BULL SALES THE END OF MARCH AND FIRST OF APRIL, SO I HAVEN'T TAKEN THE TIME TO READ THESE EMAILS UNTIL NOW. I KNOW THAT JIM USED MY BLACK JUBILEE 950 HEN AND MADE SOME CHANGES. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE CHANGES, BUT CERTAINLY "WAS NOT OFFENDED" THAT HE USED MY BIRD. UNTIL I SEE WHAT HE HAS DONE, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO COMMENT. JUBILEE IS A LONG WAY FROM PERFECT(ALTHOUGH SHE WAS THE BEST FAN AT THAT SHOW AS DECIDED BY THE JUDGE). I MAY TAKE SOME ISSUE WITH THE CREEPER COMMENT, BUT, THAT ONLY GENERATES GOOD DISCUSSION FROM WHICH WE CAN ALL LEARN. WE KNOW LOTS MORE ABOUT FANTAILS THAN OUR FOREFATHERS - JUST LOOK AT HOW MUCH THEY HAVE IMPROVED, BUT THERE IS LOTS TO LEARN YET. I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THE FANTAIL THAT SCORES MORE THEN 80 POINTS! HAVE FUN AND KEEP THE DISCUSSION GOING YOURS IN THE FANCY BRIAN POGUE
Here's more 'discussion'! Subject:TIM KVIDERA on DEEPER POCKET & POLLY on NEW TYPE! THE STANDARD HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED BOYS! IT IS ALL A MATTER OF ROUNDER APPEARANCE FROM ANY ANGLE; as well, SMALLER! ENJOY, this is good stuff here...THANKS TIM. KVIDERA is REKNOWN in FANTAIL GENETICS. Plus he has won many a class with rec reds & Classical Almonds. We have always looked to HIM...and still do!
Re:UPDATE--head pocket etc!! Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:55:05 -0400 From: Paul Polly Organization: Polly Enterprises To: "Kvidera, Tim" CC: vincentbob@aol.com, jude@hhs.net, bob@georgian.net, jmervin@mindspring.com References: 1 Tim>> good morning-- working from home office myself today trying to catch up!!--re head position you are 100% correct --however--as you move tail geometry up to provide for the max toptail as stated plus get the correct body roundness--ie all dimensions equal fore to aft etc>> the placement area or pocket is squeezed because the angle is diminished moving the head up somewhat in the pocket and effectively still at the base of the cushion/tail as stated!!you will also have to compensate by having a shorter neck yes and the truly refined snake head yes to do this correctly>> now I agree with you we could hollow the back to jam it(the head) right down into the diminished angle--or v area/pocket>> but when this is done the "visual"(not the actual now!!) for whatever reason appears that the bird is more or less not as round- more up & with less body depth fore to aft!!>>"again this is only a visual" MY PERSPECTIVE here!! but then tough on the lay fancier to seperate same here --and Tim the trouble I find is that then people(many people) start to accept the shallower body depth (and not square(true round) dimensioning on the body as manditory for so many other cridical issues on our fantail per the standard)!!!! and im sure you have seen this too!! Tim round is mentioned so many times --under body, and carriage etc in our standard --I have always felt it had priority over the real deep headset issue!!and over the last say thirty years up here I have judged our major shows and tried for the round factor first in that/the particular segment of the total fantail pointing etc--- as I feel it is critical to correct leg to body and various other points as per standard!! this is not an easy issue to resolve BUT GOOD TO HAVE EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT --thats why I feel all must chip in & provide input and I truly thankyou Tim ...WE ARE ALL LEARNING FROM ONE ANOTHER!!--just great to share gut feel input!!! I truly hope you can get connected at home soon --I believe the level of not just interest in our hobby but people sharing ideas etc by Pc --is taking the hobby by storm!!!---and adding for everyone not just a new dimension but increased interest & fun--at all levels --a big win for our hobby have always loved & admired the trememdous colour in your almonds & colours etc!!! take care, yours always in fans --Paul PS --TIM --HOPE YOU DON`T MIND THE FORWARDS BUT THIS IS very IMPORTANT INPUT FROM YOU!! AGAIN many THANKS!!--PAUL "Kvidera, Tim" wrote: Paul, RE: Head position Although the standard does not use the word "deep" it does say it. "at the base of the tail" does not mean an inch, 1/2 inch or even 1/4 inch up on the tail. The "base" is the where the tail starts - the rump which is the tail end of the back (no pun intended, well, maybe it was intended). It is not enough that the head be centered, it needs to be down at the base of the tail, not up on it. To be able to get it there one needs a refined, small head and the right combination of back to neck length. Feel free to copy any of my comments to those appropriate. Until we get connected at home I try to refrain from too much "extra" computer involvement here at work so will not be involved much in the fireline type stuff for a while yet. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Polly [mailto:polly.enterprises@sympatico.ca] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 5:56 PM To: Kvidera, Tim Subject: Re: fantail pic>>DIEMER INPUT!!&UPDATE tim --notes in red "Kvidera, Tim" wrote: Paul, Thanks for the come back. The drawing is pretty close to the one that Bob Vincent has sent me a couple times that I have commented on. I too think that it is very close.we are hoping from all the fine fanciers to get close!! I would like to see the haed slightly lower in the pocket.yes some feel this jim ervin and others but you start to lose the balanced look !!! Bob did one version trying to show that, but all he did was rotate the head a little getting rid of a little back scull fluff and pointint the beak up a bit. The eye stayed in the same spot, but the head really looked to be deeper in the pocket. My feeling is with the drawing we have pushed the amount of front body, small wings to the point where they may not be achievable in conjunction with the huge looking tail,yes this also was a topic of discussion--today I don`t believe we have the pieces to construct the bird as pictured but maybe with outcross to other varietys of pigeon`s ---im messing with modena for body front& mass and wing to body etc why not hollow the bach enough to get the head down to the base of the tail. We are not out to draw the bird as we have it, but an ideal that we want to strive for. And I think that a little lower head might be nice. But if you guys have already drawn that and it did not look right then I may be barking up the wrong tree.well we did try and it did not look as smooth as what we have but still requires more thought hear --however --im wondering why such a deep headset --it does not state depth anywhere in the standard?? a discussion i had with jim ervin--but need more thought `s tim --your input here why deep if not specified ??? we believe as long as the head is below the body line in the front visual this confroms but thats only my thoughts!!! but also several others to date as well!! Birds are off to a start, albeit slow. Did not put them together until early April. Got maybe a dozen banded and none of them are more than two weeks old. im at about 18 banded now not bad for 11 pr alot of blacks poping-- but started early and had some chilled young etc early on re weather inconsistency--my modtail crosses are ugly >man oh man not counted in above total but im having fun!!! trying some trick stuff just for the heck of it got 4 of em so far using a black modena cock!! Have some pairs that I am really excited about seeing what they can do, but of course they are the ones shooting blanks so far.yep had a couple of young cocks do that too --remated and working em!!HOPING!!!!!! have you tryed getting firetalk downloaded--!!!!!!!!!!! go to www.firetalk.com download is free---about 20 of us now in the fantails worldwide on firetalk!! you take care---Paul Best wishes, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Paul Polly [ mailto:polly.enterprises@sympatico.ca ] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 5:00 PM To: Kvidera, Tim Subject: Re: fantail pic>>DIEMER INPUT!!&UPDATE Paul Polly wrote: HI TIM----ALMOST ALL BILL D HAD INPUT`D RE THE DRAWINGS WERE INCORPURATED INTO THE ARENA 2000 PIX NOW ON THE PAGE LINKED BELOW HERE!! DISCUSSED AND WORKED ON BY BOB VINCENT AND JOHN ARENA ETC --FOR THE MOST PART BILL D WELCOMED THE DRAWINGS AND WE MADE CHANGES PER HIS SUBTLE SUGGESTIONS TO GET TO ARENA2000---HOPE YOU LIKE IT AS WELL!! BILL AND VINCENT A FAIRLY LARGE NUMBER OF FANCIERS FEEL IT IS DARN CLOSE -----AND WE CERTAINLY NEED ALL INPUT HERE--- GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU>>> HOW ARE YOUR FANTAILS!!!---PLEASE EMAIL ME ANYTIME --SORRY I DO NOT THINK JERRY MIRAGLIA IS ONLINE AT LEAST I DON`T HAVE THE INFO PERHAPS MIKE SODA OR JAMIE PURPURA!!! KNOW!! ANYWAY HERE`S THE NEWEST FANTAIL WEB PAGE LINKRE ALL THE HUBBUB!! < http://www.angelfire.com/nt/fantailfiretalk/index.html yours in the fancy---Paul Polly!!! "Kvidera, Tim" wrote: Everybody keeps forwarding this on with the subject line saying "Diemer Input." Somehow I never ever got or saw whatever Bill had to say about the drawing attempts. Anyone out there able to share it with me???

WILL THE GENEPOOLE PROMUGATE THE COLORATION & TYPE OF THE FANTAIL?

Shall we proceed to cut the color points of a white? There are no color points alloted to whites? T, F, +, or zero?

Will we have more breeders?

When will our "SMALL" fantails take the lead? Why Big fantails are OUT? CAN a Medium Fantail be picked over a small fantail? How small? How Big?


Co ordinating Members of the National BOARD, through FIRETALK CONFERENCING; The following has been contrived, and, presented as a GOAL to solve the SIZE question!

Simply, that the smallest possible fantail, with the closest to roundness appearance from "any angle"; as well, any & all the other Qualities defined by the General Requirements of the present STANDARD of PERFECTION!

This, conclusion is well within the confines of the present Standard. IE Medium shall be chosen over small dificient in other fantail qualities. IE. wing lines,body depth,rump setting, wing setting, leg setting,underbelly dimension;tail size;condition, which brings out the "ATTITUDE"(which, is a bull up type in premoult,after breeding, stress of disease/worms or any such , that proves stressful ) and, the ability to perform!

That, the working skeleton of Lance Christienson's is the actual proof, of a previous Hypothesis. IE HEALTH & WELL BEING, give a sense of ATTITUDE.This attitude creates a Balance that is second to none, and, we constantly watch in amazement.




RESULTS of FANCIER INTERPRETATIONS!
12d.gif has NO leg line break!See,above with break lines; 12g.gif(Arena) Notice, upper, leg line, on this O'Dell sketch!!
Subject: Fwd: Argall Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:49:03 EDT From: Vincentbob@aol.com To: jude@hhs.net, polly.enterprises@sympatico.ca, jarena@wn.com.au (John Arena) I requested that Dwight Crewdson send me these photos. Dwight will forward me some historical perspective later today. This model was done in 1955 by Jim Argall. That was 45 years ago!!!!! Now it portrays many of the qualities of Futura. Note the major changes in my estimation are that the tail is again "glued on the back" rather than slotted in hence Futura has a much higher set tail which allows a more vertical angle and hence more top tail to show. The body is very similar with the exception that Futura has much more "rearward" wing and narrower from the side exposing the fullness of the body. Mr. Argall was definitely a visionary!!!!!! Subject: Re: Argall Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:13:19 -0700 From: "Someone on Jim's Computer" To: Vincentbob@aol.com References: 1
1955 model
We have a verbal description of the ARGALL verses the FUTURA 2000 models. I think, to further define these few differences; that somebody might give us the same 'VIEWS' as the ARGALL MODEL? This will provide a "VISUAL" THAT WILL PLAINLY DEFINE OUR PRESENT TEXT FROM BOB VINCENT.