Solid conservative Christian male, with personality and full time job and
car.  Decent looking, fun and active and over 5'8", between the ages of 37 -
48.  I fit all of the above with the exception that I'm female and 5'8".
Open to relocating.

I'll take any leads and lots of prayer.

From: "Richard Laverdure" <>

 Praise Jesus Beth,
 I got just one question would you be submissive for him and call him
 In Christ
 Richard (Christ) LaVerdure
 son of God
Tom pierron wrote:

The only place you're going to find that is through mail order to a third world country. And then, once they learn our language, you can't let 'em get "Americanized" and talk with other women. Eddie, Eddie, half Eddie.  I want half. Anyone see that?
I love humor, and Eddie is harsh, but it's funny. I mean, you can watch Gallagher on VH1 and get all the salt cut out.
At this time, I think I'll share my salt discovery: When I worked in a bakery, 1980-82, I mostly mixed the bagel dough.  A large batch.  Gallon of eggs and a gallon of oil, bag of floor and a bucket of water. Then there were seven ingredients I would put on the scale.  But the guy that taught me told me to keep the 1lb.1/4 of yeast away from the salt - because the salt would "eat up" the yeast sort of like pouring salt on a slug.  (I'm sorry I did that growing up) But, from here, you can make up your own teaching.
Leaven, yeast, salt......
From: "Diana Clarke" <>

Baaah Humbug!...
Whoops,...wrong holiday!..Cult personality y'know

And the referee throws the penalty flag.  15 yards for flagrant going over
the bounds of Xcobu etiquette.
From: "Michael Montoya" <>

((((Mike Montoya...taking Tom P and Rick L's heads and cracking them
together))))) You brother should be more sensitive...Period!!!

Hi Tom P - I thought that was fascinating about the salt-yeast thing.  I
do have to kill snails in my garden.  I can't feel sorry for them when I
work hard to have roses and snails want to eat my plants at the roots.
Salt's not so good for roses either, so I have to be careful and wait for
them to be on the cement or something. Hope you are doing well bro.  I
always get something out of your posts... even if its between the lines
type stuff... happy Easter....I made my traditional ham and fresh
asparagus.  I love fresh asparagus and it is usually so expensive, but it
is a special treat.  Last night the girls colored about 50 eggs, and we
took them to church to give out at the break time.  See, at our church we
take a donut break about half-way through for a fellowship coffee time
for about 7 minutes, but it always goes for at least 10... anyway people
liked the eggs.  gotta go.. . Nancy C.
From: lori <>
I agree with your explanation of faith.  I see in myself that desire to
want to figure it all out. Get everything straight on the table before
taking another step. It was there before I met COBU and is there even more
now. But faith and God's plans go so far beyond our understanding of
circumstances, scripture, and human hearts.  I know that and still.....
I am also curious where Gayle stands in all of this. On the one hand, she
was very young when she met him.  And remember how she "wasn't doing well"
when they first married, which I wonder if it was more a time of him
putting her in her place to prevent "thinking." On the other hand, she's 40
plus now.  We know some of the things she's aware of and I'm sure there's
plenty more that she's aware of that we have no idea of.  And then (where's
that other hand?) there's the possibility that they're two peas from the
same pod and always have been.  I don't know.
From: "Rod Huffman" <>

As my wife will readily attest, I'm not the world's most sensitive guy,
but even I know that this is not a subject to be treated offhandedly.

I was surprised to see Beth's post, but applaud her courage in doing it.
She shared her desire with us in hopes that we would be helpful and
supportive.  What did she receive?

If we can't help with any introductions, let's join in prayer that the
Lord will grant her this honest and absolutely normal request.



Rod, regarding Beth's e-mail, good for you.  That was quite sensitive of you.
If she can't inquire among friends, what else is left - the gym or the bar



Good for you Rod, and good for you too Beth. (Nancy C) I have always been
so glad that Jim and I were both out of COBU together.  I can't imagine
what it would be like to try to explain any of our "stuff" to anyone
without them thinking any number of things... that's why its sometimes
hard to even tell people in a church - Hmmm, X-cult member, eh?  Well,
I've got this bridge in Brooklyn that my cousin is trying to sell... good
investment, he says...  so, it is difficult to be vulnerable - nobody's
really been like that to us, but we have feared that people would
certainly think we were X-Moonies or something... most intelligent
Christians, however, do seem to be empathetic about how in your search
for Truth, you can allow yourself assent to an idea for a while, and then
in the time between when you do so, and when you need to pull out and
abort the experiment, you will have been deceived or allowed yourself to
be led away from Truth without your own meaning to do so. (But praise God
you woke up!)  Especially when you are told to turn off your mind...  And
even now, I have found that sometimes Faith requires that I don't spend
as much energy as I am humanly prone to want to,  figuring it all out
first.  Sometimes there is a risk.  Basically, Faith involves a risk
beyond Reason, it has always been how it works. It doesn't always make
sense in the short term, but that's where we broaden our Christian
worldview to the Big Picture of an afterlife, a loving, all knowing God
and judgment.  And so, in Cobu, we invested in something that seemed like
a good investment at the beginning, seemed to hold steady, then began a
decline we couldn't stop due to circumstances beyond our control... that
doesn't mean we should never invest again. Anyway, I have to laugh at the
old "hoping in house and home" stuff when I think of Gayle's condo.  Do
you think she sleeps on a mattress on top of milkcrates there?  Is her
bathtub in the kitchen or does the plaster fall in?  Does she find that
converse sneaker get-up just so irresistible?  What about Gayle
sightings? How's her tan there in FL?  Do you think she is in denial
about the darkroom escapades, or just clueless?  If she raised a concern
about this, what answer would she get?  Just curious.
From: Dee Law <>

From: wrote;

 Good for you Rod, and good for you too Beth. (Nancy C) I have always been so glad that Jim and I were both out of COBU together.  I can't imagine what it would be like to try to explain any of our "stuff" to anyone without them thinking any number of things...

Hmmm...interesting...I'm the complete opposite.  I
never wanted to marry someone who had been in COBU for
fear that he'd have a "relapse" and try to drag us
back! That was always scarier to me than trying to
explain the madness...

And speaking of explaining the madness - I find that
most other Christians I've talked to get a glazed over
look if I get too detailed about COBU. However,
sometimes those who've survived a church split can
hang on until I launch way out into the deep darkness
of COBU.

As far as explaining things to my husband...he listens
and seems to understand.  But, then again, he is an
ex-Mormon!  X-boos and X-Mormons unite!  LOL!

- Dee


Thanks to all for your private and public notes of encouragement.

COBU shaped my views of marriage, dating, and relationships and kept me good
and isolated during my prime dating years.  Even after I left, I wasnít in
any shape for marriage for another 3 years.  Unfortunately, I am not alone.
There are quite a few of us reaching our 40ís who are still single, and hope
to one day fall in love, get married and have a family, although the
prospects of children grow dim by the day.  Please pray for not only me but
all of us who are still struggling with this issue.
On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:18:40 PDT "Richard Laverdure"> writes:
From: "Richard Laverdure" <>

Praise Jesus,
I still like to wear the pants in my family (I think it's God ordained. Last time I checked He referred to Himself as in the male gender.)
In Christ
Richard (Christ) LaVerdure
son of God

Praise God Rick L, I'm glad I wear the skirt in my family.  Last time I
read Proverbs the beautiful imagery inspired by the Holy Spirit referred
to Wisdom as female, as I recall.  And with all the wonderful hope of the
End Times Church becoming the Bride of Christ, and how the NT says that
we are to SUBMIT ourselves to ONE ANOTHER as He did for the Church, I am
just pleased as punch to be a sister, and have a wonderful Christian
husband who loves me, and encourages me to be all I can be in Jesus.  And
last time I heard your dear wife sure has done a lot of childbearing,
which is definitely a gender specific task, and she is worthy of my
respect, that is for sure.  LOL - Nancy C. (daughter of the Most High
God, Who honored humanity by His presence, taking on the form of a
servant, even to death on a Cross, honoring especially women above all
other religions of the world, not requiring them to be in bondage to
legalism, but encouraging them to become whole people, even to His
service to them in Love etc, etc, etc).
good for you; I picked up that you answered about 4-5 e-mails in one fell swoop.
Great comebacks.  Beth's not your type.

From: (Doris Petini)

Amen Nancy :)

Let me tell you..there is POWER in the unity of a christian couple when
they walk side by side in serving the Lord. Why do you think the enemy
tries to destroy so many christian marriages? I believe the husband is the
head of the household and also that he is to love and serve the wife as
Christ did the church and they are to submit to one another. I have found
when my husband and I both have our focus on the Lord and serving HIM no
one is concerned who is in "control." God's order in marriage naturally
develops if both are focused on and seek the Lord. I am not a gender basher
nor will I ever be...remember God created us both :)


From: "" <>

A big Amen to that! Unanimity is the key.


In response to your question asking if I were married would I call my husband
ďLordĒ, My answer is no, I would not.

You also asked me if I would submit to his authority.  I half hesitate to
answer only because from the tone of your question, Iím not sure that your
definition of submission and mine are the same thing.

If I do get married I will submit when there is a need to submit (not that I
donít think this will be a challenge when the time comes), just as I will
encourage him when he needs encouraged, laugh when itís time to laugh and cry
when weíre in pain.  I believe a healthy marriage is a marriage of equals,
not a union of superior and inferior, or boss and servant.  If I do marry
anyone, he will have to be someone who respects and honors me, just as Iíd
respect and honor him.  I believe our ability to work together and deal with
issues in mature manners will make it easier to submit when itís necessary.
From: (Doris Petini)


That is what it is all about :)

I couldn't have said it better!

From: Dee Law <>

Has anyone looked at the old documents on "John the
Apostles" web site?  I just skimmed through "The Book"
(couldn't stomach much of it!) and wonder no
one got married!  If I were a man, I would never marry
a woman who fit the description of The Book!  Too
schizophrenic and bordering on psychotic, in my

And to think that I helped to write that madness.
But, then again - I was 19 years old, too "wise" in my
own eyes, and very brainwashed!  So that's my excuse
for contributing my share of the nonsense!  LOL!

- Dee

BTW, John - why do you call yourself "John the
Apostle"?  I'm not trying to spark a debate on who
should be called what, I'm just curious.

From: Jeff Benninger <>

Dee: In my view the BOOK made marriage seem dull and dry. Two many hoops to
jump through. Love may have been mentioned but when you got to the part
about approaching a sister, a brother had to become a pretzel to do that
nonsense right. Non human, I couldn't take the requirements but I think the
really hard thing was making a speech that all the brothers would agree is
good enough for you to proceed with this sister. Now talk about jumping
easier to train a seal to do it than the brothers cuz the hoops always

By the way Melanie Arakalien got hitched a week or two ago. Shazam.
the lucky husband was Bluck Owens.(Blake) You remember that guy don't you

.From: Dee Law <>

Agreed.  I think the BOOK made the sisters look like
raging emotional maniacs!  Ha! Ha!  No thanks for the
jumping through hoops.  Thank God you and LuWonda
finally were able to hook up without the hoops!

And, yes...I definitely remember Blake Owens!  He was
in the Baltimore Park Heights fellowship when I lived
there.  He has always reminded me of "Radar" from the
old tv show "MASH"!  Good to hear about Blake and
Melanie - both really great people! you know that Blake was kidnapped by Black
muslim extremists while he was taking me to see a lamb
not too far from the Park Heights house?  I wonder if
he remembers it?  Now, to make a long story even
longer (just kidding!), here's what I remember:

We walked a few blocks down from the Park Heights
house to see this lamb.  I went inside and talked to
her and Blake waited outside because we didn't want
her mom to get upset about our racial mix (do you
remember the racial tension in Baltimore at that
time?).  Anywho, when I came out of the house Blake
was nowhere to be found!  I went to the corner store
to call to see if he was at the house (maybe he left
me?) but no one had heard from him.  So Lenny
Weddington came to pick me up.

About an hour later Blake showed up looking whiter
than a sheet and out of breath!  He said these muslim
guys had seen him standing around, started harassing
him and finally kidnapped him.  Turns out the KKK had
recently burned crosses in that neighborhood (at least
that's what these guys said) and they were wondering
why a white guy was standing out there.  Wanted to
know if he was part of the KKK!  Blake started telling
them about Jesus - I think they roughed him up a bit.
Blake said there was a woman there too that these guys
were roughing up.  He kept saying that he was so glad
that I wasn't with him because of the way they treated
this woman.  They finally let him go...said he was too
dumb to be one of the KKK people!  Thank God he was ok
(besides being a little shaken up)!

Now here's the dumb part - none of us in our great
"spookiality" ever even called the police! Duh!  Maybe
in our excitement to see Blake, we "forgot"!

I think I have enough stories for a "made for TV
movie"!  Whaddya think?

- Dee


From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Absolutely have enough stories for some
sort of movie - truth is stranger than fiction.
We have a lot to draw on.
and to be Thankful for.
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Do you know how many stories just went through
my head?
Blake and I played in two bands together before we
got saved.
In 1993,4 or 5, my brother treated us to a play
in New York called "Being Blown Sideways Through Life"
After the play, while waiting on the subway platform
across the way (you know how there's six platforms
at some stops) was Melanie and another sister.
I shouted over but they didn't seem to hear.
I could write for the next two hours - telling
Congratulations to the new couple!
From: lori <>
Haven't been over to John's site yet but plan to get there soon. As to the
book:  Stewart has seen it necessary to reorder God's word into various
"koolaids" to make the people drink. Long for the pure spiritual milk. No
way. Wave this recipe over your head and click your heels together three
times.  Repeat these words exactly when you witness. Did you depart from
the _______? (can't remember the lingo-help me out, Owen. You were around.)
Shame on you. And the poor institution of marriage. What did all those
married people do without him these past 2000 years?
From: "Leo Magpoc" <>

I have a copy of "the Book" My wife and I have been married now for 20
years, I attribute part of it to the "book", and also part of it to
some advice that brother's And sisters had given me. I don't believe
all the teachings COBU had were wrong, I still hold many of the
teachings as valuable parts of my Christian life. I do though believe
alot of their teachings were wrong, and some of the right teachings
that they  did have were discarded and not followed by them any way.
Many of their teachings I had found were not exclusive to them, some
of the teachings were common sense, and taught in other churches.


Hi Dee - you missed that one - John has chosen to stay anonymous as he
works for several secular computer companies and doesn't want his name
out on the Web in association with a cult.  I don't blame him, in his
position, and have come to accept that  is his way of dealing with Cobu
for now.  He is really okay and a good bro. and although at first it
seemed weird, it is just his way, and his reason is certainly valid.
Nancy C.
From: "Michael Montoya" <>

And if anyone is checking for my consistency , Yes I fought Brother John on
his name choice too. Read the Mars Hill accounts. We had a time and then we
became friends after he buckled under the weight of my superior intellect..
Hahaa......okay John...your turn!

From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Yes but don't you think his
"anonymity compromises his veracity"?
Had to quote what another brother said.
I like saying a lot with few words - and
in simple terms - but sometimes I like to
be sent to my dictionary.....
From: Dee Law <>

That makes a lot of sense to me.  Thanks much!
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Pardon moi.
I can't play at your level.
Time for a nap.
(A more fruitful experience)
As for your cheap shot on Mike,
he wears his heart on his sleeve -
we don't wonder what it is he's thinking
or how he feels.  And not only that,
knowing his heart - we know his name
Mr comp wiz, (time for my cheap shot)
do you care that when you write, we have
to scroll over?
Very far.
It's funny how people who are annoying
and give you a hard time can do it in so
many ways.
Remember Mask?
no, not Jim Carey,
the one with Rocky and his poem at the end.
"These things are good
(I forget the next few lines)
and the sun on my face.
These things are a drag:
(a few lines)
and the sun on my face."
From: "John Apostle" <>

Hi Dee, Nancy, Mike, and Tom,

Dee, Nancy said it better than I have explained it myself.  As for "Why John Apostle?" it's pretty simple.  I wanted "John the Baptist" but it was already taken on, so I took the first alias that popped in my head -- "John Apostle."  The reason I wanted "John the Baptist" was because of Stewart's allusions to him being John the Baptist or Elijah.  It went over everybody's head, but it's too late to change the alias now.

As for Mike's observation:  "And if anyone is checking for my consistency , Yes I fought Brother John on his name choice too. Read the Mars Hill accounts. We had a time and then we became friends after he buckled under the weight of my superior intellect... Hahaa......okay John...your turn!"   Now Mike, I don't think anyone has ever accused you of being consistent, have they?  If so, let me know who it is, and I'll come to your defense right away.  As for buckling under the weight of your superior intellect, I willingly concede, although there is the risk that doing so may ingnite a flame war with Fred, who jumps on me when I put myself down.  You know, "Be all you can," and etc.

And finally, Tom writes:

  Yes but don't you think his
  "anonymity compromises his veracity"?
  Had to quote what another brother said.
  I like saying a lot with few words - and
  in simple terms - but sometimes I like to
  be sent to my dictionary.....

Now Tom, you know that quote is one of the fallacies of substantive distraction -- the fallacy of argument ad hominem_ -- and is as foolish as it is unfair.  Truth is independent of the vessel which it passes through.  (Not that I have ever even claimed any veracity, that I remember.)  Who was the widow that fed Elijah?  Who was the martyr who prophesied against Jeroboam in 1st Kings 13?  Who was the woman at the well who gave the testimony, "He told me all that I ever did"?  What was the donkey's name that spoke to Balaam?  By such reasoning we ought to distrust the books of Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, etc., for we don't know who wrote them.  You should know better.  Suppose my real name turns out to be "Tom Pierron," how can that possibly change the "veracity" of anything that I have every said?  In fact, I don't understand how "veracity" can be "compromised" anyway.

'Cuse my soapbox; nothing personal, of course.

Yours truly,


    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
From: "Michael Montoya" <>

You know John, I miss our little squirmishes. When you smart bros talk that
smart logical stuff, I get goose bumps. I need to take more units.
From: "John Apostle" <>

Hey Tom,
Ask Mike
where you
can find
a sense
of humor.
I know
*your* name
but *your*
heart I've
never seen
on a
sleeve or
anywhere else
and if
you think
before speaking
you can't
tell it
by me.
Cheap Shots
are worth
what you
pay for them
so quit
belly aching
and get
a life.

Taking you
seriously so
you don't
have to
do it

From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Thank you for not scrolling.....
A little effort isn't hard, now, is it?

From: Dee Law <>

I'm glad you were able to salvage something from COBU.
Except for my contact with x-booers, I have tried to
throw out everything I learned and believed in COBU.
That might be extreme but my rationale is that there's
no sense in drinking the water...even if it's only
half poisoned.  And it was all too jumbled for me to
figure out which part was poisoned and what part
wasn't so I pitched it all out and started over from
ground zero.

I think the Book is very patronizing and degrading to
women.  There's probably a statement or two in there
that I wouldn't argue with but for the most part I
find it insulting.  And the bad thing is that we
sisters wrote the crazy thing!

For example, I find this statement inaccurate and
demeaning:  "All sisters are alike, as one drop of
water is the same as the next."  I have four sisters.
We have the same parents.  We grew up together in the
same house.  And we are all complete opposites of each
other.  What bothers one sister doesn't even phase the
other one.  Different things discourage and motivate
us.  We have four different outlooks on life and
operate from four different perspectives.  In other
words, we are unique individuals carefully fashioned
by God.

The Book says, "A sister will often be "stirred up" by
a feeling, whether consciously or unconsciously.
Almost anything can trigger such a
feeling--insecurity, a bad experience, a wrong thing
she has done or even her own appearance, to name a
few."  Now doesn't this sound like someone who is
psychotic to you? "Excuse me, but, I have no control
over myself whatsoever because I am a fugly, weak,
manuevering Eve number who is hooked on phoenics and
stirred by vague and unconscious feelings..."  Gimme a
break!  Poor girl needs a doctor! LOL!

The Book says, "When two sisters are close to each
other, there is a force to be goofy and to hide in one
another."  Huh?

The Book says, "... seeing couples walking arm-in-arm
down the street...make her dwell on wanting a
relationship of her own, which will only make her
unhappy if she indulges it."  Well, just about
anything you "indulge" will make you unhappy whether
male or female.  But I contend that there is nothing
wrong with wanting a relationship and wanting to get
married. Some of us wouldn't be here today if our
folks hadn't gotten married!  (And for those of us
whose parents never married, hopefully they saw
something in each other if ever so briefly!)

And the Book further states "A sister willingly comes
to the light (Jn. 3:21); it is only when she is acting
as a physical woman that she chooses to hide."  Can
anyone translate this from COBU-speak into English?
What in the world does "acting as a physical woman"
mean?  I am a physical woman!  Should I go around
acting as a physical man?  Or maybe I should act as a
physical giraffe?  Now, does that sound appealing to
anyone?  Sorry, but, this one really baffles me!

Another quote from the Book, "When a sister is
speaking, it is not even unusual for her to worry and
think that she is seeking wrong attention..."  This
was probably true in COBUland.  I mean, with the "Eve"
spirit constantly on the never know when
someone would think you were

And more from the Book, "A sister is naturally driven
by emotions and is changeable and unpredictable...
Quickly changing circumstances and pressures often
render her helpless"... Changeable, unpredictable, and
helpless?  Puuuhleeeeze!  Have you never met "XENA the
Warrior Princess"?  Oh, sorry, I can't user her
because she's a mythical character on tv!  Well, have
you never met "DEE the X-Boo Warrior Princess"?
Faster than a speeding Art Show!  More powerful than
the Eve spirit!  Able to squash all maneuvering in a
single bound!  Ha! Ha! Ha! NOT!

Anywho, I could go on and on and make a long story
even loooooonger but I won't!  I hope you folks aren't
taking me too seriously because I am laughing my head
off right now!

Leo, congratulations on being married for 20 years.
My hat's off to you and your wife. I just got married
this past October and I am very happy and looking
forward to a life time of love and happiness (yes, I
know the tough times will come, too...)

- Dee
From: "Leo Magpoc" <>

To Dee
  Dee, I never really studied "the book" that closely. I did however
get some good basic points out of it. I was married before I got
saved and didn't realize the amount of control my wife had on me,
until it was pointed out by some sister's, and from reading the book.
Reading alot of the emails on the one list, I do realize that most of
you all went through a lot more than I did. being married with a
child when I first got saved, I never really lived in. I was pretty
much able to look at the things they were teaching with a certain
amount of skeptism. The brothers and sisters in Cleveland also didn't
seem as controled as the others in different centers, in fact the
ones in Clev, were always being accused of being there because they
wanted to hide. I do sympathize with all of you for haveing to go
through all that you did. I really feel that I was able, because of
my circumstances to take some of the good basic teachings, and
discard the false ones. The center in Clev seems like it was a whole
different church from what I've read about other centers, yet some of
it did go on in Clev, so I can understand what you all are talking
  Also my wife and I have a good relationship, I don't view her as
doing"eve numbers" all the time, but I do understand that God has
made the man the head of the woman, and that she is the weaker
vessel,(It does not mean that she is any less). This is something I
had no Idea about before getting saved, and before I was saved she
was always doing "eve numbers" and I was definitely being like a
"dumb Adam" But now because we are both saved we know to treat each
other with love, we still fall in to the "Adam and Eve" once in a
while, but because we are saved we both guard against it.
  what I do see some of your points that you mentioned about the
"book" but I also see that the way some of the points in the "book"
were used seemed more of a problem than the statements themselves.
I definitly didn't agree with many things in Cobu, I at many times
wrote st, tried to call him, but never got anywhere, I also went to
Philedelphia and opposed JG at a meeting, and walked out on it
From: "Rod Huffman" <>

>From: Dee Law <>
>Another quote from the Book, "When a sister is
>speaking, it is not even unusual for her to worry and
>think that she is seeking wrong attention..."  This
>was probably true in COBUland.  I mean, with the "Eve"
>spirit constantly on the never know when
>someone would think you were

COWBU sisters?


Dee, Rod - regarding man-ooo-vering and cowbu....I remember a statement about
sisters that ST said, but it was not included in  "The Book".  He said it
while we were in a meeting in the 51st St. loft "Sisters have to be kicked
off the cowpath" understanding of that is that we want routines, house
and home and a husband is supposed to "pull the rug out"....I guess the
premise is that if she is unbalanced enough, she won't be able to use her
mind to realize she is being oppressed.