________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:26:24 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: Maturing in Christ

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ!

Several times now I have tried to resign from the Sharpen List and I haven't
been very successful. Either my letter gets lost or broken or something: Or
the server changes or my e-mail address changes or I just change and don't
desire to be a part of the list.

I pray and hope that brothers and sisters in Christ have grown beyond the
need to have a "SECRET LIST."

It occurred to me that the secret list idea was merely a struggle in an
identity to find one's place in this crazy society that we call cobu. Those
who wanted their private conversations--perhaps they did not understand that,
another list was cutting and painful to those who were purposely excluded.
So, we as a (Fellowship?  Na), what ever we are--a group of dear lost
souls????Help me here Tom!!!! are struggling to understand still what we are
and who we are in Christ AND to each other.

So let's mature in Christ....Remember those who are weak among us, ---Neil...
Let us also remember to pray for one another, because we all have
distinguished weaknesses.
Honesty with one another takes a lot of courage!!!! But it is what God wants,
so we grow into honorable Christians.  How could one feel if they had a
secret society and excluded others they knew were good fellows in the Lord? I
believe my conscience would become so weak, that I would be delirious and
saying truly crazy things, like ">>>let us ignore them over there!!!!<<<"

Rather than chasing others off of this list perhaps we can gather others to
our selves and begin to become involved in each others lives. Don't try to
tell someone , "you love them in Christ," if you haven't seen of written to
them over the last ten years.

I hope that all of us continue to grow and love one another in Christ.


Love,
CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:51:19 -0500
  From: "racoonrr" <racoon99@pnpa.net>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson


Dear Carol and Tom,
    I must agree with the both of you.  There is much that I disagree with regarding Jesse's current politics but credit should be given where it is due.  It was a noble thing he and all others did in those freedom marches to pave the way for equal opportunity for all under-privileged Americans.   We as Christians should never rejoice in the down-fall of anyone regardless of their religious/political views.  We are to be a source of light, hope and encouragement, applying the balm of Gilead when necessary.  Compassion speaks volumes to those who would oppose Christianity.  Forgiveness breaks down the dividing walls of hostility.
In Christ,
Sister Darlene
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:54:37 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Office Vocabulary


From:  Owen
     Dear
    Thought you'd like these
Subject: Office Vocabulary

ADMINISPHERE: The rarefied organizational layers beginning just
above the rank and file. Decisions that fall from the adminisphere
are often profoundly inappropriate or irrelevant to the problems they
were designed to solve.

ALPHA GEEK: The most knowledgeable, technically proficient
person in an office or work group.

BLAMESTORMING: Sitting around in a group discussing why a
deadline was missed or a project failed and who was responsible.

BODY NAZIS: Hard-core exercise and weightlifting fanatics who
look down on anyone who doesn't work out obsessively.

CHAINSAW CONSULTANT: An outside expert brought in to
reduce the employee head count, leaving the brass with clean
hands.

CHIPS AND SALSA: Chips = hardware, salsa = software. i.e.:
"Well, first we gotta figure out if the problem's in your chips or your
salsa."

CLM: Career Limiting Move. Used among micro-serfs to describe
ill-advised activity. Trashing your boss while he or she is within
earshot is a serious CLM.

CUBE FARM: An office filled with cubicles.

DE-INSTALLED: Euphemism for being fired. Heard on the
voicemail of a Vice President at a downsizing computer firm: You
have reached the number of a de-installed vice president. Please
dial our main number and ask operator for assistance."

DILBERTED: To be exploited and oppressed by your boss.
Derived from the experiences of Dilbert, the geek-hell-comic strip.
"I've been Dilberted again. The old man revised the specs for the
fourth time this week."

FLIGHT RISK: Used to describe employees who are suspected of
planning to leave the company or department soon.

404: Someone who's clueless. From the World Wide Web error
message "404 Not Found," meaning that the requested document
could not be located. Used as in: "Don't bother asking him...he's a
404 man."

GENERICA: Features of the American landscape that are exactly
the same, no matter where one is, such as fast food joints, strip
malls, subdivisions. Used as in: "We were so lost in generica that I
forgot what city we were in."

G.O.O.D. Job: A "Get:Out:Of: Debt" job. A well-paying job people
take in order to pay off their debts, one that they will quit as soon as
they are solvent again.

IDEA HAMSTERS: People who always seem to have their idea
generators running.


IRRITAINMENT: Entertainment and media spectacles that are
annoying but you find yourself unable to stop watching them. The
O.J. trials were prime examples.

MOUSE POTATO: The online, wired, generation's answer to the
Couch Potato.

OHNO-SECOND: That minuscule fraction of time in which realize
that you've just made a BIG mistake. Like making the selection that
reformats your hard drive.

PERCUSSIVE MAINTENANCE: The fine art of whacking an
electronic device to get it to work again.

PRAIRIE DOGGING: When someone yells or drops something
loudly in a cube farm, and people's heads pop up over the walls to
see what's going on.

SEAGULL MANAGER: A manager who flies in, makes a lot of
noise, dumps all over everything and then leaves.


SITCOMs: What yuppies turn into when they have children and one
of them stops working to stay home with the kids. Stands for Single
Income, Two Children, Oppressive Mortgage.

STARTER MARRIAGE: A short-lived first marriage that ends in
divorce with no kids, no property and no regrets.

STRESS PUPPY: A person who seems to thrive on being stressed
out and whiny.

SWIPED OUT: An ATM or credit card that has been rendered
useless because the magnetic strip is worn away from extensive
use.

TOURISTS: People who take training classes just to get a vacation
from their jobs. Example: "We had three serious students in the
class; the rest were just tourists."

TREEWARE: Hacker slang for documentation or other printed
material.

XEROX SUBSIDY: Euphemism for swiping free photocopies from
one's workplace.

YUPPIE FOOD STAMPS: The ubiquitous $20 bills spewed out of
ATMs everywhere. Often used when trying to split the bill after a
meal: We owe $8 each, but all anybody's got are yuppie food
stamps."
 
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net  
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:44:32 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Second Meanings in the Psalms/ more


From:  Owen
     Dear Friends
    The following selection is from CS Lewis's book "REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS",
ch XII Second Meanings in the Psalms

In principle, then, the allegorical way of reading
the Psalms can claim the highest possible authority.
But of course this does not mean that all the count-
less applications of it are fruitful, legitimate, or even
rational. What we see when we think we are look-
ing into the depths of Scripture may sometimes be
only the reflection of our own silly faces. Many
allegorical interpretations which were once popular
seem to me, as perhaps to most moderns, to be
strained, arbitrary and ridiculous. I think we may
be sure that some of them really are; we ought to be
much less sure that we know which. What seems
strained, -a mere triumph of perverse ingenuity- to
one age, seems plain and obvious to another, so that
our ancestors would often wonder how we could
possibly miss what we wonder how they could have
been silly-clever enough to find. And between
different ages there is no impartial judge on earth,
for no one stands outside the historical process; and
of course no one is so completely enslaved to it as
those who take our own age to be, not one more
period, but a final and permanent platform from
which we can see all other ages objectively.

pg. 121

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
    Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net  

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:01:12 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

>      Dear Carol and Tom,     I must agree with the both of you.
>      There is much that I disagree with regarding Jesse's current
>      politics but credit should be given where it is due.  It was
>      a noble thing he and all others did in those freedom marches
>      to pave the way for equal opportunity for all
>      under-privileged Americans.   We as Christians should never
>      rejoice in the down-fall of anyone regardless of their
>      religious/political views.  We are to be a source of light,
>      hope and encouragement, applying the balm of Gilead when
>      necessary.  Compassion speaks volumes to those who would
>      oppose Christianity.  Forgiveness breaks down the dividing
>      walls of hostility.In Christ,Sister Darlene
>
>
Good to hear from you. You quite often add things I hadn't thought of.
You've heard the saying, "Christians are the only ones to kill their
wounded."
      It's easy to kick a man when he's down.
I just went on a rant in my book about "spokesmen" of the black
community.
(Who knows what I'll later delete) And once again, like Nixon - it's a
media contrivance.  I mean, if Farrakhan is actually a spokesperson for the
blacks then it's just as logical to say David Duke is a spokesman for the
"whites."  (if you're going to go the lunatic fringe route...)
  Is Colin Powell next for a dalliance?   I don't think so.
It is terrible what Jesse's done - it's not like it's when he was in
college, or an affair long ago like Dr J.  This happened while supposedly
ministering to someone else about the same thing.  I guess that's why it says "Look
to yourselves, lest you too be tempted..."
I get the feeling people won't be making jokes about this one.
You know, like SNL and the others.  The only one I did hear - Letterman
was talking about all the people moving right now - Bush to the White
House, Clinton to New York, and Jesse to the couch.
I think these won't go on for long - like others we've raked over
  the coals.  I've got that feeling about this.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:46:54 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: fable crow & rabbit


From:  Owen

Sitting

A crow was sitting on a tree, doing nothing all day.
A small rabbit saw the crow, and asked him, "Can I
also sit like you and do nothing all day long?"

The crow answered: "Sure, why not." So, the rabbit
sat on the ground below the crow, and rested.
All of a sudden, a fox appeared, jumped on the
rabbit and ate it.

Moral of the story is:
To sit and do nothing safely, you must sit very high up.    

No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
    Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net  

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:07:54 EST
  From: logbearer@aol.com
Subject: Missions in Haiti

In a few weeks, I will be taking a short term missions trip to the Dominican
Republic.  The primary objective is to refurbish the playground of a school
in Porta Plata.  A secondary objective is to travel to Haiti and establish a
foundation for missions work there.  Does anyone have information on the
whereabouts of Tim Ahmet, or other brothers and sisters who may be doing
missions work in Haiti?
                         thanks, Amy


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:21:41 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: Knock it OFF!!!!

YIKES!!!!

I'm sorry Mike!

CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:41:42 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: Maturing in Christ

>  So, we as a (Fellowship?  Na), what ever we are--a group of dear lost
>  souls????Help me here Tom!!!! are struggling to understand still what
> we are and who we are in Christ AND to each other.

I have to say I don't know about some of the stuff you're talking about
here. I don't know why you think I can help you.  I do have my point of view
which is pretty confused too.  And when I read what you wrote there:
"struggling to understand still what we are and who we are in Christ AND
to each other."

Not too long ago I would have put myself in the same boat.  But I found
it strange when I read that - that I don't feel that way at all.  Not that
you're wrong at all - I have felt that way too - and maybe will again in the
future. Right now, though, the way I'm thinking about "us" - we're a mixed
group. We were to start off with in Cobu - and even more so now -  20
odd years down the road in our relationships with Jesus.  We are
certainly not "cookie cutter Christians."  I hate to use the word "diverse"
because I don't particularly enjoy being "politically correct."  I feel sometimes,
myself  included - some have tried to make someone into a round peg,
and then force them into a square hole.
I enjoy passing along things that have enlightened me.  I find it
fascinating. Here again - I have to work at not being forceful.  At least we can
accept one another - to a certain extent.

This is one of the only aspects of a heavy shepherding movement that is
"good" in that it takes care of these things - you don't have to worry
about certain aspects of diversity - because they simply aren't allowed by the
leader.  So some stuff is sorted out for you - jump in line, or get out.
(that's a pretty bad good thing, isn't it?!)
Well - all of us here chose to get out for one reason or another in one
way, shape or form.  And that led us all to here.  Some eager to share, some
eager to dare, and some even to care,  where?
There - at the next signpost straight ahead - see it?
  It says, The Twilight Zone.
Sorry, couldn't resist.  Your post is very heartfelt, sister.
I don't think we have to worry about what other people write to each
other that we don't read.  I have written you off line before - and most
others who have posted on any sort of regular basis have gotten a note from me one
time perhaps.  No big deal.  No big secrets.  Just some things don't
concern everyone - and perhaps MOST things don't concern everyone.
Sometimes it's "fun" to read, but in the past sometimes, I have felt
like I was reading someone else's mail.
If there are any secrets, I suppose they should be kept a secret.
Otherwise, they're no longer a secret.
  But I admire your concern.
You're not lost.  You may be confused like I am from time
   to time. And did feel slighted at first when I thought about
    what some have been saying lately.  But if someone wants
to have their own intimate conversations - I see no problem at all.
That's the way it should be.  Our communication  should be free -
and that includes restricting it when we deem it appropriate.
I want to end here with something heavy about Jesus,
  but I can't really think of anything......
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:58:05 -0500
  From: "racoonrr" <racoon99@pnpa.net>
Subject: Re: Hello Ed

Dear Ed,
  I was thinking of your occupation as a post man today.  Do you ever
encounter ferocious dogs?  What is it like tromping through the snow?  Does
the Post Office supply you with foot gear?  I've heard that being a post man
is the coveted position of those who work for the U.S. P. O.  Is that true?
The postmen (suppose I should include women too) drive nice jeeps in our
area.  Did you ever have any other position at the Post Office?  Yep, I
realize these are a lot of questions but I'm curious, what can I say?  How
has your life been going lately?  John and I think of you often.  Please
know that you are always welcome to come for a visit.  God Bless you
brother!
Love in Jesus,
Darlene

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:25:18 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re:ANOTHER PRAYER REQUEST

Recently my 14 year old daughter contracted Strept Throat, unknown to us,
which the doctors believe developed into Rheumatoid Fever and damaged her
heart!
Now she has a heart murmur.

Please pray that Jesus heals her heart valve. She is going for testing in one
week. Also that she is not afraid.

Thankyou

CK
________________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:19:30 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 552
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:09:14 EST
  From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re:ANOTHER PRAYER REQUEST

Your daughter is first in my prayers today.  

cindy

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:55:16 -0500
  From: "Marva L Mckeython" <marva_l_mckeython@fanniemae.com>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

As much as I was disappointed concerning Jackson, A sister reminded me
that he without sin cast the first sin. She told me that all have sinned
and fall short of the glory of GOD!!!!!!!!


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:00:16 -0500
  From: "Marva L Mckeython" <marva_l_mckeython@fanniemae.com>
Subject: Re: PLEASE WELCOME

Tom I remember when we lived at 48th street, I also have some pictures of you!!!!!


________________________________________________________________________



Message: 5
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:08:55 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: PRAYER REQUEST

Dear Sis,
Will pray for your nephew and will ask our Tuesday night prayer group to
pray for Jonathon.
"What is impossible for man is possible with God."
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:23:22 -0000
  From: "Carol  " <cstutts@kih.net>
Subject: Re:ANOTHER PRAYER REQUEST

Just said a prayer Cathy.....
CS


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:22:55 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: 48th Street

I do have some memories of being there with Bill Plumber and
Renee Maynard.  - oh, and -what's her name - yes, Jane Doerr
and Tom Eckenrode?
I bet I look like a different person then. - just about.
If you can't post them - I'll have to see them sometime somehow.
Was there a bathtub in the kitchen?  I know we had to stay out
of the kitchen sometimes - was there an actual bathtub there?
Renee's mom used to visit, too.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:29:18 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: I got the flu!

> today I woke up and felt fine, but before I left the house I found the
> need to reach for Kleenex's like my life depended on them....the
> longer the day has gone on.. the worse I feel...  in other words..I
> don't feel good.Called the florist, the delivery person delivered it
> to the wrong house, and the person intended picked it up....and how
> was your day?


You may be getting what I had last week.
Last Tuesday my nose ran and I was sneezing all day in work.  The
Kleenexes piled up - but other than that I felt fine - till that night.
The next day I called out - and I knew it - there was no doubt
  I had a good bout with the flu  - I had an entire body ache.
My first day, even though I was posting and all - I was only up
for 2 two hour periods - the rest of the time I slept.  I slept less
as the week went on but it wasn't till 10 o'clock Saturday I could
feel the body ache had left me.  It felt great!
   Today was my first day back at work.
You may or may not be able to work through  what you've got.
I couldn't -  my job demands I remain alert at all times and
ready to key in information.  I was in no shape for that....
  At least the flowers cheered you up for a little while.
  They got double duty.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:59:00 -0500
  From: "Mark Loftus" <mloftus955@hotmail.com>
Subject: John Noe



Tom has been saying a number of things lately about Preterism in general and
John Noe's book in particular, and I must say that I find Tom's comments
refreshing and stimulating.  It's hard for me to resist jumping in at any
number of points; but there is one set of comments in particular, an excerpt
from a post Tan put up on Dec. 27th, that I believe deserves special notice:


"I'm not into end times and prophecy stuff.  To me it's a waste of time.  I
pass.  There's other ways to spin your wheels.  Biblically the life of Jesus
is more important- meaning- His living inside of me now."



To these remarks I say AMEN, and welcome to principle number one of Final
Christianity!  Boiling it down to its barest essential, that is what Final
Christianity is supposed to be - inner fellowship with Jesus!  All roads
lead to Rome, as the saying goes; and as it pertains to the Word of God, all
truth of Scripture ultimately brings us to one destination: "He who says he
abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." This is what
it's all about from the simplest things that a one day old lamb can
understand to the deepest and most cryptic figurative riddles.
I would not want to be completely negative toward the fascination Christians
have with "end time prophecy", because of the relationship that fascination
PARTLY has with looking past the things of this present existence to the
things that are eternal.  To put it another way, that fascination is bound
up with the relationship between faith and hope and the motivation that is
the immediate product of the interaction between the two.  But as always,
the flesh has a way of getting into the mix; and literalism lends itself to
the tendencies of the flesh.
There is just so very much in the traditional views about Bible prophecy
that is useless at least and presumptuous at worst.  Useless because it is
irrelevant to one's personal walk with the Lord, and presumptuous because of
the eagerness to see into things that supposedly are going to happen to the
outside world while failing to bear in mind that God's judgment always
begins with his own house.  It makes me shudder when I hear preachers say
such things as the following: "I can't wait!  Let it come (the
'Tribulation')!  I'm going to be out of here by that time!" I am reminded of
the verse, "Why do you desire the Day of the Lord?"
The value of the Preterist view is a matter of perspective.  It brings the
student of Scripture full circle and allows him to stand at a key vantage
point when he sees that the Bible story in its literal sense is a finished
product.  But the Preterist view is just as useless as any other scheme of
prophecy interpretation unless one considers, where circles are concerned,
that an end is also a beginning, and that the scroll is "written inside and
on the back." Sacred history reached its climax in the crucifixion and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, and its resolution at the end of that
generation; but Jesus, as the focal point of that sacred drama, like a prism
that both gathers light in from one side and disperses light out from the
other side, has graciously lent Himself to the figures along with everything
else.  The script has been written, the story has already been burned onto
the film, and no matter how many times you watch the movie it always comes
out the same.  The Word of God, as a seed, exists to reproduce itself; and
it remains living and active.  The only question is which part in the script
each actor is destined to play.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:33 EST
  From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: I got the flu!

I was also out last week.  I went back to work yesterday.  Two weeks ago, I
coughed a lot and went horse.  I felt better that Sunday.  Last Monday I got
the fever and the sneezes, then felt light-headed.  That's when I knew it was
time to take off.  I feel a lot better, but now I'm exhausted.  This thing is
hard to shake and it passes back and forth very easily.  My co-workers are
getting sick one-by-one, so I'll probably get it back.
Anyway, I'm praying for all who has this cold, it's a doozy!
Cindy
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:58:08 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: John Noe

Mark Loftus wrote: The Word of God, as a seed, exists to reproduce itself; and
it remains living and active.  The only question is which part in the script
> each actor is destined to play.

I was thinking of a few things - destined?  If someone is destined why question?

Just do.
I have heard of dogs - they're very good at being themselves.  And are not
ashamed one bit to run around and let you know how glad they are to see you.
I am still left with the
"you can't get there from here feeling."
I understand what you're saying - and then I get lost.
Am I destined to "play a different" part than you?
I hearken back to a meeting I went to - I don't know if you knew her from
Calvary Chapel - Dott (Connel?) and her sister moved to Washington State, before

they left, they had this "preacher" come visit their house.
After the "talk" I was speaking with a fairly old women, and I told her about
the latest book I was reading - only a few sentences when she bursts in
"Oh, you don't KNOW the Lord, do you?"
On the way home I told Sue what the old lady had said and she said
"I'm sure she didn't mean that..."
Well, what did she mean then?
I think  our relationships with Jesus are subjective.  And if I knew exactly
what subjective means, then maybe that's the appropriate word, I don't know,
sounds right...
Anyway - I know one brother who says smoking pot makes him think about
Jesus more.  What would you say about that?  (I'm not looking for an answer.)
But like Ellen going off and being refreshed - I think we would all agree
she was genuinely refreshed in the Lord.  But I bet all three of us can find a
lot
of stuff we wouldn't agree on.
(BTW, I just don't understand some things you're saying - just how would
I get there from here?  I'm not saying you're wrong or nuts or anything -
just that I for one don't follow at this point in time....was there a time you
felt like that?)
But I'm sure you, I and Ellen would agree that Jesus is refreshing.
Are we at Rome yet?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:00:08 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Animal Farm

To the brethren getting into Devastated Christian - another
book - that brings similar things to light in a different
light - (I think that's a correct sentence...) and I think
others will agree is Animal Farm by George Orwell.
And depending on the era you lived in fellowship - you can
notice what animal is playing which part.
Real eye-opener!



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:03:11 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: God's Funeral

Quote of the day.
'Science', equally, could no more explain the Universe than
a clock, left to itself, could tell the time.

So funny.
The book I am reading now was chosen by Publishers Weekly
as one of the best books of 1999.
It's called God's Funeral.  In this paperback version, in the
foreward she apologizes to people "on both sides of the fence"
as they both misunderstood the title.  (The title, BTW is the title
of a poem by Thomas Hardy. some guy from a long time ago...)
  "After a hundred years.. blah blah ...The spiritual hunger
of men and women does not merely disappear because so many,
in the churches and the universities, seem incapable of understanding
what is really at stake.  That is why it seems apporpriate, as our
century comes to an end, to revisit the Victorian experience of
faith and doubt."
To bring books into work - I have to get them stamped by the guard
so that they know we're not stealing them from Postal customers.
The guard saw the title - and he started making these faces and going
of in a preach that he must see his preacher do.
"Do you know that someone not saved of Christ is spiritually dead?"
It's 7:30 in the morning - the elevator is full of people waiting for
the door to close.
You should have seen the faces he was making and the tone in which he
was speaking - he was on the Sunday morning pulpit.  (I think he was
threatened by the title "God's Funeral.")  I wish I could remember all
the things he said.  One was, "Do you know not all flesh is alike?"
And I had been thinking about that one recently and tried to talk to
him about it - cause some flesh is for fish - some for animals.
He said the angels are different, cause some are ministering spirits
and some are warriors.
Then he was saying "you know God doesn't give His glory to
another!"  And he was looking at me, all fired up.
He finally said one thing, I forget, and he asked for an "amen"
which I gave him before I got on the elevator...
God's Funeral:
"Those readers and reviewers who thought it came down either on the side
of God or against Him missed its purpose.  It is intended as a journey
of imaginative discovery into the minds of our forbears; noble, brave
and honest men and women for the most part, who suffered something very like
a collective nervous breakdown in the 1840's through the 1860's.
The effects of that breakdown are with us today......"



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:26:33 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: For Maureen


Dear Maureen,

I will be mailing the MTC Employment Status card, and a letter from me,
tomorrow.  :)

Cathy B.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:31:01 -0500
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: Re:  47th & 48th Street

Hello Tom,

I lived on the 5th floor of 515 once. There was a bath tub in our
"kitchen". Then I think I moved to the 2nd or 3rd floor. Then 531. Funny
you don't remember me from there, but I remember you. I remember all
the people you mentioned too! (Pummer, Eckert (Rick had Fruits of the
Earth business with Tom) and Jane). What years? hmmm ... 77-82
probably. I was working on Wall Street.

I'm surprised you don't know the answer to the question about how much
515 was bought and sold for!

Mary R.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:20:11 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Missions in Haiti

Sister Amy,
That is great news! I trust the Lord will use you in a mighty way.
May He give you traveling mercies to and from.
Cannot help you regarding Tim's whereabouts.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:21:42 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: fable crow & rabbit

Brother Owen,
Thanks Asop : )
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:47:55 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: It's been quite a while

Sister Darlene,
Very good to have you back : ).
See how much Cobu toughened you up for this "past semester"?
And you thought all those hours sitting on milk crates was wasted...: )
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:20:23 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

Brother Tom,
I have come to believe (after quite a few years of listening to and observing him on various shows etc.), plus reading some insights on him from a biographer) that Jesse is a Martin Luther King wanna be, one of several of the 20th century slave owners or as JC Watts called them (before the Republicans made him say he was sorry-SHAME ON THEM) "Poverty Pimps", and that his "reverend" title has as much spiritual authority as a JW's. I once heard a woman call in to a TV show he was on (maybe Larry King) and asked Jesse point blank if he was born again. He danced around the question, or rather answered it like someone would who was trying to make it sound like he knew what he was talking about. He never once mentioned Jesus being his savior or anything close to it.
As for his adultery, and subsequent apology, God knows his heart. However, it is quite abysmal that at the same time he was "counseling" Bill Clinton for his adultery, Jesse was getting his picture taken with his quite pregnant lover with Clinton.
Yes King David sinned grievously with adultery and murder. God forgave him but also read what scripture says:"Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'
11 "This is what the LORD says: `Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.'"
Quite a price to pay for one whom God forgives.
I think of David's failure when my heart wanders. I also think of Joseph who resisted and am encouraged that he did not give in.
May God grant us strength to resist our flesh and the tempter in whatever our weaknesses are.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:34:44 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 553
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:26:27 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: 48th Street

529 had bathtubs in the kitchen.  John built a wooden board over it so I
had a place to drain my dishes.  Taking a bath was definitely a family
affair and all company had to leave or retreat behind the curtain over
the living room door.  531 had normal albeit tiny bathrooms.  my
strongest memory of 531 was the way the everyone communicated through the
kitchen windows that opened into some sort of pit.  anything could have
been down there.  teresa rogovsky and mary robinson and i think judy naik
were upstairs from me.  the inmans were across the hall.  most of the
other marrieds were in the front of the building.  i remember being very
lonely when i first got there.  i thought everyone was pretty strange at
first, and i didn't want to be there to begin with.  i used to feed the
pigeons until john told me that they were disease carriers and told me
not to anymore.  i was very pregnant so he was probably right, but i just
cried.  nyc was just such a culture shock all around. add cobu to that
and it's a pretty bleak picture.  i for one was very very happy to get
out of nyc even into nj.  just having grass was wonderful.  now i own a
tree!       love,   ellen

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:45:37 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: It's been quite a while

i still have my milk crates.  they're probably illegal or something  
ellen
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:44:07 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: God's Funeral

dear tom:

there are a number of books about that time and its affects--some of
which were devastating.  i can't remember the name of the one i read at
the moment.  who's the author of this one?    ellen
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:15:06 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: God's Funeral

LOL

CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:22:49 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: SPEAKING OF REUNION!

Dear Friends on Lists:

I was wondering if anyone was planning a reunion for this year. I remember
last years was canceled...But I thought maybe there would be enough interest
this year for us to have one. I certainly would consider going to one. I
never have been, because I never felt I needed to..But I have developed
friendships here and would love to see some of these wonderful people. I
would love to meet them and talk in person, too.

If it would not be too emotional for me..Because I am a very emotional
person. I may start crying or something sissy like that. :)

Hope you feel better Carol, I got what seems like a flu--but I am mostly
concerned about Joanna. She seems a whole lot better!!! Praise God!  But I
won't be sure until they test her heart and hear~~~~~~~~~>          bum
bump...right now they hear bump shish pah...

God Bless You All
CK


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:41:38 -0800 (PST)
  From: Dee Law-Jones <Musicheaven@yahoo.com>
Subject: Holy Relics from days gone by...

Hi Ellen -

Wow!  Milk crates!  "Holy Relics" from days gone
by!!!! Y'know...everytime I see them in the grocery
store I just laugh!!!  I think I had a million of them
but, alas, I had to leave them behind when I escaped
because they wouldn't fit into my mom's car.  I also
left all of my notebooks and tapes - a whole lot of
them - at the Staten Island house.  I hope somebody
burned those things!  LOL!

Over the years and multiple moves later, I have lost
most of my holy relics...Eusebius (covered with clear
contact paper for protection!)...foxes book of
martyrs...baby zee...my first rsv Bible with home made
denim cover and the 12 salvation verses highlighted in
blaring pink...favorite sleeping bag (ex-boyfriend
accidentally destroyed it in 1992 but I held on to it
for a long time!)...get smart get saved
button...little shepherd button..."I'm not really here
T-shirt" (there's a story behind that one!)...mega
bottles of No-Doze for surviving those extremely quiet
meetings!

I still have the T-shirt I got baptized in back in
1978.  It's the only "holy relic" that I haven't
parted with or lost.  Of course I don't wear it
anymore (probably can't fit it anyway!!! LOL!) but
it's back in style now!  I keep it because it reminds
me of my baptism and it makes me smile every time I
think of that old shirt.  Ahhh...the joys of
innocence...

- Dee

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:02:29 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: God's Funeral

> dear tom:
>
> there are a number of books about that time and its affects--some of
> which were devastating.  i can't remember the name of the one i read at
> the moment.  who's the author of this one?    ellen


A. N. Wilson.  I can't help think of AnnWilson, of Heart.
But this is a fellow.  He wrote biographies of Tolstoy, C.S. Lewis, Paul,
and Jesus - which is supposedly famous, but I never heard of it...
He lives in London.
Another quote - out of context of course, but puts  a twist on something...
"To one human mind Hume's arguments, lucid, witty, restrained, will make
perfect, even desolating, sense.  To another, they will seem like the attempts of a
blind man to describe colour."
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
  Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:38:39 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: re: A Canadian's perception of US


From:  Owen
     Dear Carol
    This is good and I have it on cassette, but this is about 30 years old.  It was recorded during the Vietnam war.


A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
    Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net 

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:31:30 EST
  From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: I got the flu!

In a message dated 1/24/2001 1:21:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cstutts@kih.net writes:


> Last night I took a generic form of contact along with using one of
>

Where were YOU last week while I was suffering? LOL.  Seems like you had the
answer.
Cindy.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:40:24 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: It's been quite a while

Carol wrote:

> visiting her daughter that she was so proud of.. she did tell me that
> often.. only to see her living out of milk crates.. what a shock. LOL
> I heard after that trip she was very concerned about what I was
> involved in.


What our parents went through.  My mom ending up throwing all my stuff
out which included a large baseball card collection from the 1960's.
I told "That's the house I could have bought for you...."
In this book I'm reading, in the 1800's (is that Victorian times? - I'm
not up on all terms like that) one should - well here it is -
"...in his own discussion of  whether it is ever permissible to dis-
semble about one's religious unbelief, he considers that the only
occasion where such cloaking of the truth could be morally justifiable is in the
matter of sparing the feelings of parents - the one area where he
himself had inflicted grievous pain by his honesty: 'one relationship in life,
and one only, justifies us in being silent where otherwise it would be
right to speak.  This relationship is that between child and parents. . .'
Morley thinks it is perfectly permissible, indeed desirable, that husbands and
wives should torture one another with displays of frankness in this
area." (that's what it says!) page 27


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:03:47 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

> Brother Tom, I once heard a woman call in to a TV show he was on
> (maybe Larry King) and asked Jesse point blank if he was born again.
> He danced around the question, or rather answered it like someone
> would who was trying to make it sound like he knew what he was talking
> about. He never once mentioned Jesus being his savior or anything
> close to it. As for his adultery, and subsequent apology, God knows his
> heart. However, it is quite abysmal that at the same time he was
> "counseling" Bill Clinton for his adultery, Jesse was getting his
> picture taken with his quite pregnant lover with Clinton.
> I think of David's failure when my heart wanders. I also think of
> Joseph who resisted and am encouraged that he did not give in.
> May God grant us strength to resist our flesh and the tempter in
> whatever our weaknesses are. Yours in Christ,
> Sola Scriptura,
> Steve Saxton


You left out "Heimi (sp) town" and he used to spit in white people's
food. But you are saying you saw this first hand - so I will take your
word for it - it is sad he fudged on the born again question.  Being
asked directly, though, maybe the other person sounded like they had an
agenda. (can you play it back in your head? perhaps not...)
Many born agains are interpreted as Jesus freaks or the next person to
blow up an abortion clinic.  But you think he would have at least
acknowledged Jesus somehow - point well taken there!
I've heard some of the bad things about Jesse - I think it also may have
to do with how the media just gives us sound bites.  You really don't know
what's up - just the spin the press puts on it.  Hearing Jesse rhyme
words - I'm sure there was more content to whatever he was saying at the time.
It has gotten so that, for myself personally, I put Jesse and Johnny
Cochran's rhymes in the same boat - and that's toward the edge of the
world where they'll fall off....
We can rejoice in our freedom to disagree with Jesse's politics.
(I'm getting up on my soapbox now)
But I defer to my sister Marva - I haven't heard that verse for a while
but it certainly applies here:  "Let him who is without sin cast the
first stone." (stepping down from soapbox)
Between me and you, I - I don't know how to say this - part of it is
the Bill Clinton thing and raking him over the coals - are we just plain
tired of tabloid journalism?  Or the other sensitive thing is - the race
card. The only reason I ask myself is, gee, I'm so quick to forgive and not
make a big deal out of it.  Why?
But in reality - somehow I feel this case is different.  I haven't heard
a word - I mean - him speak on TV or radio so I can't "judge" his
contrition - or how would my palate rate it?  I've just seen the
pictures of him looking out his window with his wife and what I've heard people
say on talk radio say.  I really think there is a respect for Jesse and he
will not be raked over the coals like Clinton.
You may have a lack of respect for his politics - and maybe I do too,
I'm not even exactly sure what his politics are.  But I get a real
feeling we're all willing and able to forgive Jesse.
Let's not hang a shingle out in front of our church:
        "No sinners allowed."
That would be the end.  That's what the world wants to see.
We're not winking the eye.  But let's face ourselves and our own ability
to forgive.
I think my dad has that sign on his desk -
"to forgive is divine - but it's not my policy" -
   something like that.....
All that being said - the fact that some of the things you have observed
are first hand  carries weight in consideration.
Why isn't life easier?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:28:51 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re:  47th & 48th Street

Mary wrote:

> I lived on the 5th floor of 515 once. There was a bath tub in our
> "kitchen". Then I think I moved to the 2nd or 3rd floor. Then 531. Funny
> you don't remember me from there, but I remember you. I remember all
> the people you mentioned too! (Pummer, Eckert (Rick had Fruits of the
> Earth business with Tom) and Jane). What years? hmmm ... 77-82
> probably. I was working on Wall Street.


So you remember me?!  Cause I don't remember much of those days.
I had forgotten about Marva - but did remember.  I'm sorry, but you don't
ring a bell.  I love our correspondence, but if we talked then - I have no
recollection whatsoever.  I used to leave a lot.  Blake said I was like
Bobby Whipple - in that - I didn't fake it, if I wasn't into Jesus - I left.
No false front (or so he said).
One time when I left, I came back with my girl friend to these same
apartments we're talking about.  I don't know who was there, but they
let me in to get my 100 watt Marshall head.  (an amplifier - a reddish
orange instead of the standard black - a rarity - and powerful!)
I was thinking about this today - there was another time I left - and it must
have been for longer - I was contacted by the same girl friend - she had a
boyfriend - but she was going into the studio and asked if I would play
guitar - I was an excellent lead guitarist.  I did.
I had only left Cobu a week before - and I still think that guitar playing on
that song is some of my best.  It wasn't overwhelming - sort of tasty Joe
Walsh.  It was me.
And later I joined a rock band - (when they heard I
was back in town they courted me like all get out.)
The bass player was Bob Griffiths - Jim Griffiths brother.  Jim was living
in the cult somewhere.  I spent a couple years playing rock music.
I didn't spend a long time at those apartments in NYC.  But if you say I was
there - I guess I was there.  (I'm being facetious...)

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:06:46 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: John Noe

Mark Loftus wrote:

> Tom has been saying a number of things lately about Preterism in general and
> John Noe's book in particular, and I must say that I find Tom's comments
> refreshing and stimulating.  It's hard for me to resist jumping in at any
> number of points; but there is one set of comments in particular, an excerpt
> from a post Tan put up on Dec. 27th, that I believe deserves special notice:
>
> "I'm not into end times and prophecy stuff.  To me it's a waste of time.  I
> pass.  There's other ways to spin your wheels.  Biblically the life of Jesus
> is more important- meaning- His living inside of me now."
>
> To these remarks I say AMEN, and welcome to principle number one of Final
> Christianity!  Boiling it down to its barest essential, that is what Final
> Christianity is supposed to be - inner fellowship with Jesus!  All roads
> lead to Rome, as the saying goes; and as it pertains to the Word of God, all
> truth of Scripture ultimately brings us to one destination: "He who says he
> abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." This is what
> it's all about from the simplest things that a one day old lamb can
> understand to the deepest and most cryptic figurative riddles.


I have to say Mark, I am wondering - my last post about "getting there
from here."  That's the way I've been communicating also sometimes.
(you who preach to others - yes, I've got to take a lesson myself...)
Sometimes we're talking about current issues, etc.
But when I talk about what "I'm into" - it's a road I started on in 1991.
How is anyone going to get there from here?  I don't know if anyone really
wants to.  Raymond read some of Gene's books and touted them.
But it seems everyone remains skeptical - and they should.
Like I said in another post - people are busy with their own lives.
But most of all - if you're happy where you are - then that is great!
I offer things I have found, and maybe something you would like too - especially
if you're "searching."  In this process - I have learned also - such as right
now - when Mark shares about his stuff - he seems so into it just like I am - but
something that took years to sink in for me - perhaps they took years for
Mark, too - and - well, we're not making the connection.
I know Mark is not nuts.  The jury may still be out on me.
I am not the best communicator in reality (in my own mind - I think I'm
great - but it's obvious I've got more to learn).  I'll bet you see what I'm
talking about, don't you Mark - like I think I said somewhere else - how
was it for you when you first embarked on these things you're talking about?
I mean, when I first heard of preterism - I thought I heard all the craziest
things there are in the world till I heard that.  You may as well have been
communicating with aliens as far as I was concerned.
I've turned the corner.  It ain't easy.  I didn't mean to hurt or belittle you
in any way, Mark - does this convey totally what I'm saying to you and everyone else
including myself?  (I hope so)  Aargh!

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:23:55 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: Please Welcome Scott Neuman

Hi Scott!

How are you doing? Glad to see you joined mike’s list.
What do you think so far?  
Let me know,

CK

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:29:05 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: re: A Canadian's perception of US

Great Article Carol!

I have often thought those very thoughts, and here is a man who is not even
an American putting them into words. Makes you feel proud to be American, at
least for a little while. I was always a patriot and still love America, yet
I am not so naive about the dream-


CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:36:36 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: A new sister in Christ!

Hey I just wanted to announce that we have a new sister in Christ Her name is
Tara, and she is the 14 year old friend of my daughters...three nights ago
she prayed and gave her life to Jesus and came over to our house to share her
experience. This morning she told me she was afraid she would fail a test
which would hold her back. So I suggested we pray to Jesus that she pass.
After school she came running out of the school and across the road to my car
to announce her teacher had told her she definitely passed the test. She was
so excited, thanking Jesus. I am so happy we have a brand new sister in
Christ. I pray for more to come!

CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 05:26:32 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 554
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:56:46 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Email Address

Dear Friends at Sharpen:

I am now adopting Net Zero for reasons one might guess:

It's Free--:)

My new address will appear on sharpen from now on as:

ckmezzz@netzero.net

Thanks for taking note!


CK(Cathy Kirby Miller)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:22:03 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Kutztown, 6-23-00, Olde good things report,

Hi Mary, she didn't get specific about the dates & times & locations of the
meetings, which led me to believe that they didn't really want me to come.
She did confirm that they still had some kind of meetings.
                                                              Herm 


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:51:54 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: Re: the "world"

Hi Lori, the words of the Bible should be interpreted in the context of its
passage. there fore you will find e.g. the word "world" used to mean
different limiting scopes. A careful word study on this word will show this
to be true, even when it is used in connection with the word "whole" as in
ROM 1:8. For anyone to assert that the faith of the believers in Rome is
being proclaimed even to the American Indian at that time is absurd. In ROM
1:8 the whole world should be interpreted to mean the whole known world at
that time. the fulfillment of this verse will be realized at a future date
when the elect from all tribes, people & tongues will hear the gospel, & that
date has not yet come.

                                                                      Herm
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:07:24 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Hi Maureen, I have more than 50 tapes given to me by Dorothy Stout. They are
tapings of meetings we had as early as 1972. they were recorded by her
daughter, Diane Stout. Do you want them? if so, send me your address so I can
ship it to you.
                                                                      Herm 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:50:50 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: 48th Street

Hi Tom, Jane Doerr Is now married to Tom Eckert. Bill Plumber & his wife are
missionaries to Romania, last I heard.
                                                              Tom
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:41:54 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: vacation

Hi everyone, I just got back from a vacation to Ormond Beach, Fla. (next to
Daytona Beach) to visit my younger brother Ed, Wendy, his wife, & my nephew
Alex , 7. It was kind of a last minute decision made available by a visit
from Germany by my niece, Tammy & her husband Eric. they have been
vacationing in the States at least once a year since 1992 & have been to 34
States thus far. They decided to drive to Florida & asked if I wanted to go
along. They paid for much of my trip there & back. I had not seen my brother
for 7 years & never met his wife & my nephew. I remarked on the phone a month
ago how I longed to see them next year, finances permitting. then the Lord
granted my request & made a way. Praise His Name! We left on the 12 th &
returned on the 21st. we left Pa. in freezing weather & arrived with sunny &
80's weather. We had this the whole time there. what a difference!
We even went in the ocean to body surf, it was cold at first, but you soon
got used to it.
Our beachfront hotel had a heated pool, so after a swim in the ocean it was
wonderful to get in the heated pool. We had fun playing a pool game called
Marco Polo with my nephew & the others. We visited St. Augustine, the
alligator farm, Kennedy Space Center, Daytona Speedway, & a very large flea
market on day trips. early January is the best time to go to because the
hotel rates are so low, $40 a night as compared to $200 in the peak season.
It washed the winter doldrums away. No wonder so many people travel from the
North there.
                                                                  Herm


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:45:21 -0500
  From: "Walker, Michael S, PERSCOM" <walkerm@hoffman.army.mil>
Subject: Care for new members...

Dear 'listers,
I have been corresponding with a dear sister that recently got on the list,
then got right back off after the response she received from someone. The
'lister that responded to her actually questioned her motives!
Caution: flaming, scathing tirade follows.
I thought this list was primarily a safe place for ex-members of COBU to
comfort one another that leaving COBU was the right thing to do. I'm sure
that many newcomers to the list still hurt from their years "in," and are
very cautiously joining the list. They are feeling it out to see if its a
"safe" place. Remember that when you respond! If you don't agree with some
small point of doctrine that they may have mentioned, give them a break!
They've had enough criticism during the COBU to last a lifetime. They don't
need any more. This list should be a place of healing. Kindly leave your
doctrinal disputes at the login screen (i.e.: door).
This list should be more like a hospital than a boxing ring. If you picture
the newcomers as emotionally battered and bruised, (as I was when I came
here) then you may treat them a little more gently. End of flaming, scathing
tirade. Thank you for listening.
Mike

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:44:42 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: milk crates

I still have my milk crates.  they're probably illegal or something.  -Ellen

From:  Owen
      Dear Ellen
     I was told by Peter T that those were all purchased from some dairy company.


A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net  



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:51:09 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Jesse Jackson

So what do you say... shall we pray for Jesse?   Carol
From:  Owen
      Dear Carol
     Absolutely!  But not that he gets away with it.  Rather that he repents and becomes saved.
  I worry that husbands who see their wives defending Clinton & Jackson, will think "hey she'll love me that much if I fool around, and she'll stand by me just like Jackie and the Doormat".

A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net  
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
  Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:22:34 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: 515

I'm surprised you don't know ...how much 515 was bought and sold for!     -Mary R.
From:  Owen
      Dear Mary
     I remember clearly that it was said that 515 was bought for $30K and sold for     (~)$430K.  


A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net  

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:04:29 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Care for new members...


Dear Mike, Certain member(s) just will not comply with this request.  They
have their own list now, so even though I protested giving the left boot of
fellowship earlier, I am beginning to see the necessity of it.  Ed


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:01:23 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: vacation

That sure sounds like a great time, Herman; I'm glad you got to enjoy a
mid-winter's vacation.  Ed


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:24:12 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: vacation

Brother Herm,
Welcome back to "northern climate reality" : )
That sounds great, bro.
I remember when my wife and I were in Hilton Head, SC many moons ago
(bh-before house).
It was in February and we kept watching the Weather Channel show us pictures
of the NE getting socked with a big snow storm while we were enjoying 70
degree days-sigh.

Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:33:40 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A new sister in Christ!

Sister Cathy,
That is wonderful news!
May the Lord use you to help disciple her.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:59:55 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: re: A Canadian's perception of US

Brother Owen and Carol,
You are right about the time period bro. I was going to high school and they played a tape every morning on the radio for a while. Gordon Sinclair was speaking and it was very powerful. I graduated in 1966.
I just read a timeline on the net and anti-war protests were going on early in 1966 so Sinclair must have been responding to them. France was very vocal about the US pulling out of Viet Nam.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:03:14 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Re: SPEAKING OF REUNION!

Sister Cathy,
Would love to attend. : )
The last two were...can't describe how wonderful.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:26:34 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Jesse Jackson

Sister Carol,
I agree with Owen's comment of how to pray for Jesse.
Pray that he repents and gets saved.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:33:18 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Re:ANOTHER PRAYER REQUEST

Sister Cathy,
Will do.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:31:47 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: PLEASE WELCOME

Sister Marva,
Welcome to the list sis!
It was great to see you at the reunion but I hope we get to talk a bit more
the next time.
May the Lord bless you dear sister.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:41:43 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: You and I must act quickly !

Sister Carol,
The answer is in John 15:"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me
before it hated you.
19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are
not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world
hates you.
20
Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his
master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my
word, they will keep yours also.
21
But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him
who sent me.
22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they
have no excuse for their sin.
23
He who hates me hates my Father also.
24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not
have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.

Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 02:56:07 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 555
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:14:17 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: NOW HEAR THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

okay...there is a misconception floating about concerning sharpen and
another list existing outside of sharpen. Darlene Griffith wrote and said
she tried to send an email to the other list. I can only assume that Darlene
meant the list that existed last year or the year before when we all had the
big fight and some wanted a list that was non-debate. I created that list a
while back...when others felt bad about not being on the list...i erased
it....it has not existed for months if not a whole year. THERE IS NO OTHER
LIST. Fred Mitchell has a list and anyone can sign up just by going to
cobu.org   there are about 30 on his list and about 75 on this Sharpen.
There are no other lists. I have learned my lesson trying to make everyone
happy and it is impossible. It seems as though everyone wants to be on one
list and come fight flight or faint they want to stay on one list. That is
what's happening now. ONE LIST   ONE SHARPEN LIST.  I can understand if some
don't trust me as I did create a list some time back mainly to separate two
warring factions....I have not chosen that remedy since. Even though there
are times when certain individuals choose to not overlook the chance to send
barbs at each other, I still have not nor will I ever make another list.

I will send a copy of the lists I run on egroups. I did not answer Carol
Stutts question about other groups because 1) I'm in digest mode and get all
the emails at once at the end of the day. 2) Carol has asked me to edit out
her emails from the web page version of the sharpen discussions. Hence I cut
all of her emails out before reading them. I do read large cap sub. lines
and her great wit which is obvious when I am editing. Wish I could include
your comments on the web version Carol, there are some real corkers
there...but as we all know..Carol has posted things and has gotten..shall we
say..unfavorable treatment....and so I am abiding by her wish not to have
her posts on the WWW.

I hope this clears up the confusion...if you can read attach files I will
copy my egroups roaster.

Mike

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:22:08 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: mike montoya

dear mike montoya:

how do i reach you privately?   love,  ellen

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:12:02 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: You and I must act quickly !

dear carol:

being a Christian in this country--particularly if you are  white  and
middle-class, but it is reaching to all nowadays---has not been popular
for a long time.  There has been a dramatic breakdown of godly men in
leadership over the last 50 years and a just a dramatic upsurge in
humanistic leadership instead.  and it's not just in government; it's
everywhere.  it actually began first in education which makes sense.
anyway being a Christian has been cause for discrimination for a LONG
time now.  perhaps it's getting more obvious now, that's
all.       love,  ellen
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:24:18 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SPEAKING OF REUNION!

the last 2 were put together by the willis'  but i don't know if they are
still interested in dong that.  what exactly does it entail to organize
such an "event"?  who knows?    ellen

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:17:43 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: vacation

we call them snowbirds.  part of our population--the smarter and richer
part---leave chilly Watertown and its 155" of snow every winter and
return in the Spring with the birds.  oh, to be a bird.   ellen

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:20:41 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: 515

dear owen:

whre did you get those figures?  that's a lot of
money.       ellen
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:19:39 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: milk crates

does that mean they are legally mine.  oh, what transport!  you have
freed my conscience from its silent burden of --oh, so many years.  God
bless you, Owen!       ellen
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:50:42 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: THIS IS FROM>>>
>  From: IHSMAINT@aol.com
>  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:03:48 EST
 
>  
>  MIKE:  I WAS A MEMBER OF COBU FROM 1975-1978.  SPENT YEAR AND A HALF OR
MORE   AT M.T.C.  IT TOOK ME SEVERAL YEARS AFTER TO SEE CLEARLY ABOUT WHAT I WAS
 INVOLVED IN, BUT, PRAISE THE LORD, WHAT MAN MEANT FOR EVIL, GOD HAS USED
FOR   GOOD.  I AM NOW A MEMBER OF A LOCAL BAPTIST CHURCH AND HAVE BEEN SERVING
GOD  FAITHFULLY FOR YEARS.  RECENTLY MY WIFE, CHILDREN, AND I VISITED THE
>  PHILADELPHIA COBU SIGHT (MAY 2000), AND TALKED WITH MEMBERS FOR QUITE
SOME  TIME.  HAVE KEPT IN CONTACT WITH SOME MEMBERS.  IF ANYONE WISHES TO
CONTACT   ME, MY ADDRESS IS:  ED HALFERTY,  BOX 44, HUTCHINSON, PA 15640-0044.
THANKS  AND THANKS FOR YOUR WEB-SITE.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:41:44 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: SWITCH OVER

Hi...it's Mike Montoya.....Attention...I have noticed that Yahoo.com bought
egroups.com  so here's the plan...if I need to switch over manually then I'm
in trouble because I forgot my password. What I will do in just a few
minutes is print out all the email addresses of the lists(ours, the poetry
list, the religious studies list etc) and if Yahoo rejects me, I will sign
up fresh and we will be sharpen2 or xboo or something...but we will be
onelist.

Mike M

P.S. Please stand by

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:24:10 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: Hi again

it's Mike M.  I cannot get into egroups which means I cannot add people to
the list. So I am going to add everyone to a new list hoping to duplicate
this sharpen. If you can read this::: then egroups is still being honored by
yahoo. Soon it will not be which will mean nobody can fix problems on the
list. So I am now going to construct the new list. Hang on.

Mike M

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:57:21 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: CONVERTED

okay...i just converted the whole egroups account to yahoo and have all the
lists back(meaning Sharpen is now back) So IF YOU ARE ON SHARPEN stay here.
And if you were not on sharpen and got subscribed today onto
x-cobu@yahoogroups.com then email me at xboo2002@yahoo.com and tell me to
get you onto Sharpen.
I apologize for this trouble. This is the first time I have been able to get
into egroups as ving3 in a year. So now I can add people.

MM
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:33:56 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Care for new members...

"Walker, Michael S, PERSCOM" wrote:

> Dear 'listers,
> I have been corresponding with a dear sister that recently got on the list,
> then got right back off after the response she received from someone. The
> 'lister that responded to her actually questioned her motives!


I hope you were referring to me.  Because then there is no other
instance of this around - just a misunderstanding on my part...
If you weren't referring to me, I still would like to pass this along.
But I think you are referring to me - and I don't blame you for
being upset with what you learned of what happened - but I think
  you should hear this from my point of view:

Since I have a web site that has ex-Cobu stuff on it, I sometimes
get correspondence from people - and I usually don't know who
they are.  A couple months ago, a brother, who said he knew me,
but I don't know him, wanted to know if I could help him get in
touch with Paul Sostak, because that's who led him to Jesus and
he was getting nostalgic.  We had a few messages back and forth.
  A few weeks ago - someone sent an e-mail saying their girl friend
went back - and he was asking for help.  He did start his message,
"Hi, my name is..."  But I don't know him.  And there was another name
at the bottom of the message I didn't know either.  In the message
he even mentioned the possibility of kidnapping her and hiring a
deprogrammer.  Well, I don't know who this message is from really,
and no one in their right mind will advocate something like kid-
     napping - especially on the www.
I told him that perhaps this spirit can only be gotten out through
prayer and fasting - insinuating this is one tough cookie.  He had
a poignant line in his letter: "She's chosen to hate herself if she
doesn't have their approval."  How about that insight!

We come to last week - I get another e-mail - and keep in mind -
this is the e-mail address from my web site - not the address you
can readily get off my list stuff - you have to go to my web site
and respond there - where people surf and respond sometimes.  This
is from my web site e-mail - it has in the "subject" box:
  Past F.F./Cobu Member's reaction to Ann's Testimony
- which I thought a bit odd.  The person writing does say "hi" and
that's it.  I am then asked a bunch of questions like "Are you in
contact with the "Survivor's web page?" (does that sound like some
one who's "in the loop?" "You said you're an original founder?"
And some more questions about do I know others out or others in
and if I'm in contact with any of them.  And would I be willing to
     talk about my experience?
     It was signed by a woman.
The e-mail address was "msn.com"  Now you may be suffix savvy, but
I'm not.  What came to mind was Msnbc - the TV network.
So I'm thinking this is in the Primtime vein - you know, Diane
Sawyer was so much into doing a thing on Cobu someone visited Ms
Rubin's office (the writer of the Ex-Cobu Philly Mag article).
Evidently, we don't have anything tragic enough to catch viewers
attention like they would like.  I guess. Who knows, maybe they're
still working on it.  They do work on some things for a long time.

But anyway - put yourself in my shoes.  An unsolicited letter comes
from someone I have never heard of - with a strange title in the
subject box like someone trying to keep track of things under
"member's reaction to Ann's Testimony."  Wouldn't you be suspicious?
And when someone asks me all these questions out of the blue - and
I was kind enough to answer them - you can believe I'm going to ask
    some questions of my own.
And, I was assuming this was a journalist.  I ended my letter with
"What are you trying to do; what are you seeking?"

The reply a couple days later was "I'm not seeking anything."
And that was it.
It was then I realized this wasn't a journalist - and I had freaked
somebody out - so I sent back a conciliatory note - I forget exactly
what I said - but the person said they felt like the old days - like
I was drilling them and that perhaps I was one who was still in there!
(and the same header was still in the subject box!)

In this forum - there is etiquette, and I'm not saying I'm perfect
because I know I'm not.  Hopefully we learn from our mistakes.
She didn't start of, "Hi, my name is" - or "I'm a fellow ex-member."
  So - to me - the message was coming out of nowhere.
I still wouldn't have known who she was cause I don't know her.  But it
certainly would have taken the edge off.  And I would have given her
     a lot more benefit of the doubt.
In the future, I have to say that anything sent to me from my site
that is similar in content - I will treat it pretty much the same
way.  I am not talking to just anyone about anything.  There is a
sanctity to my past that I share with others.  I don't just throw it
    around.
Excuse me - I got another message...
  (What's that - how much?!)
Okay, I'm back.  I've got to go - I've just thrown ethics out the
window and I think I have the down payment for a house.  See ya...

She seems like a very nice person - I admit I was the one who was
paranoid - but can you blame me?  This is a different medium.
No faces, no voice inflections, can't "hear the spirit in which
things are said."  Can't necessarily notice the "tongue in cheek."
It's all the written word.  I find it challenging and fun.
But sometimes we hit bumps in the road.  Such is life.
Sorry for any grief I caused anyone - it wasn't intended.

> This list should be more like a hospital than a boxing ring. If you picture
> the newcomers as emotionally battered and bruised, (as I was when I came
> here) then you may treat them a little more gently. End of flaming, scathing
> tirade. Thank you for listening.
> Mike


Good points.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:30:37 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: great web site for rapture info

Here is the best site I have found for rapture information
www.raptureready.com 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:23:49 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: my 2 cents on jesse

I do not want to sound judgmental but when someone uses the office of a minister of God to promote their own agenda rather than God's agenda and creates division ,does not that bring into question what gospel this person represents ?,Have you ever heard of Jesse leading people to Christ ? I do not think that jesse is in the same category as Billy Graham or Richard Wurmbrandt and wonder exactly what category he is in. I do not know but I will say that I am not comfortable following jesse as my leader.  

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me ALL the days of my life. Psalm 23
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:23:42 -0500
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: Re: Care for new members...

Hello Tom,

I think .msn stands for microsoft network, an isp or internet service
provider. I understood your message, and I have some reservations of
my own concerning things I've even posted on the onelist ... I mean
it's hard to be personal and yet know this may all appear on an
ex-cobu webpage ... and I don't like to mention full names sometimes
... but I guess the only thing to do would be to keep things as light
as possible until you know somewhat who you are talking to, or just
refer someone to some of the other ex-cobu pages and Mike's lists ...
so they have the possibility of connecting with someone they actually
knew. I could see how asking the question "What are you seeking?"
could sound like back there ... I would not bring up Biblical
references right away.

Just my opinion,
But I didn't think it was you Mike was talking about anyway, and it
may not have been,

Mary
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:04:57 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: forgiveness


From:  Owen
      Dear
     If someone borrowed money and refused to pay it back, even if I forgave them I would not lend them $ again.  


A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo NY    dococ@surferz.net  

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 22:07:51 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: forgiveness

Absolutely.  When I sold drugs - if I "fronted" someone $20
I was told by my dealer to look at that as an "investment" -
don't "front" to them again.  (when they didn't pay that back)
And in my case - it was their loss - because what I had - they
weren't going to get anywhere else.  So they were only hurting
themselves - but it was an investment.  In other words -
it was really their loss - and they knew it.  So if anyone did do
that - they were only hurting themselves.  (This is a "drug world"
way to look at it....)  the guy I got crank off of then - it was cut
with pro cain - the stuff dentists use to kill pain which is very much like
the name it is - "caine" - yes, like cocaine.  To this day, before a
dentist gives you  a needle - they give you a shot of procaine -
or even more pronounced - how about Cholaseptic - to make your
throat feel better.  That's procaine - unless they've changed it.
(this was before the advent of coke - not that coke wasn't around -
but it wasn't popular.  The crank was like "medicine."
In the 1980's, when the Feds decided to get rid of the crank and
let the coke run free (to supply money for the contras)
There was only coke readily available - and they got rid of the
crank.  Philadelphia was even dubbed "the crank capital of the
world."   - till they got rid of it - to help the contras - which is
another reason the "war on drugs" is a myth.  When they wanted to get rid
of the crank to help the contras - they did it - no problem.
I used to buy coke - no problem on the streets in the 1980's.
It's now - or I know personally - in the early 1990's - virtually
impossible - they finally cut down - because of public opinion,
I suppose.  I got stories about that.............

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
  Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:48:52 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: Re: A new sister in Christ!

This is encouraging news, Cathy!

"But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whose hope
is in his unfailing love" Ps. 33:17).
Bob San Pascual
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:23:03 EST
  From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Jesse Jackson

I agree with Owen's comment of how to pray for Jesse.
Pray that he repents and gets saved.

This comment is classic COBU, sounding judgmental.  What makes one think
that Jesse Jackson is not among the saved?  I haven't committed his sin, but
I have sinned from time to time, whether in thought or actions. Sin is sin,
but there is repentance for the "saved" also.
I do not agree with what Mr. Jackson has done, I think it's horrible, and I
would probably not have been as understanding as his wife.  But then again,
that's the point; if she forgave him, who are we to judge.  I thank God that
some of us are not in the power to give eternal life because with all the
judgment, no one would make it.
(this is only my opinion, not meant to hurt, but food for thought) Cindy.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 04:33:24 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: It's been quite a while

Carol,
I remember when my Mom came to visit me when I was living in the Bronx---I
was praying she wouldn't see the roaches running for cover in the kitchen,
which we all saw everytime we entered the apt and put the light on.  She
came a couple times.  She always liked everyone but Stewart.  And I remember
how happy I was when I had finally "found" enough milk crates to make a bed
off  the floor.  Ahh, the simple pleasures!  :-)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:49:33 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 556
_______________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:10:12 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Care for new members...

Brother Tom,
Here are your unknown contact's questions:
"Are you in contact with the "Survivor's web page?" "You said you're an
original founder?"
> And some more questions about do I know others out or others in
> and if I'm in contact with any of them.  And would I be willing to
talk about my experience? "member's reaction to Ann's Testimony


Here is your question:"What are you trying to do; what are you seeking?"
Who is "grilling" whom in all this correspondence?

NOT YOU BRO.
It sounds like you handled it quite rightly (as a Brits older rock song
goes)
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:57:37 -0500
  From: "Mark Loftus" <mloftus955@hotmail.com>
Subject: John Noe

TOM  wrote  -  (24 Jan 2001, 2106)
I'll bet you see what I'm talking about, don't you Mark - like I think I
said somewhere else ? how was it for you when you first embarked on these
things you're talking about? I mean, when I first heard of preterism - I
thought I heard all the craziest things there are in the world till I heard
that.  You may as well have been communicating with aliens as far as I was
concerned.  I've turned the corner.  It ain't easy.  I didn't mean to hurt
or belittle you in any way, Mark - does this convey totally what I'm saying
to you and everyone else including myself?  (I hope so)  Aargh!

MARK  responds  -  (26 Jan 2001)
I have also read many of Gene Edwards books years ago, I forget who
recommended them to me, may have been Jim Griffiths.   There were some
things he said that helped at the time, not that I agreed with everything.  
Incidentally, it was the same weekend that Gene was in our area last
September, I was at a preterist bible conference that same weekend.

I have been through a lot since COBU, first listening to Wayne Monbleau and
Bruce Morgan as early as 1982.  Through their teaching I drank in much about
God's grace.  The danger was drinking in someone's bitterness against
fundamentalists.  I listened to Bruce for a while until he got heavily into
psychology and Karl Jung.  Bruce did have many interesting spiritual
interpretations, and was on Wayne’s show back in the early 80?s until Wayne
also didn’t agree with Bruce’s change in direction.  As the saying goes,
"eat the chicken and spit out the bones".

Speaking of 1991, that was the year I first heard about preterism, from
Arthur Melanson  (Joy Of The Lord Ministries, Audubon, NJ).  I heard him on
WTMR (800 AM at 10AM weekdays) and when I first heard this stuff about
preterism, I thought he was losing it, because he had been amillenial for
years.   Now I think it was a courageous stand for him to take, no doubt he
lost a lot of listeners and he struggled with keeping the show on the air
for a while, but apparently the giving came back up.  I was quite skeptical
for a few years, but I realized much of what he said was true.  A couple of
years later, I had heard this same idea from Rob, Wayne Jones and Neil; but
was still not convinced, but I had to do some homework.  I remember
comparing notes with the pastor from the Bible Study Center as late as 1997
on this issue, though I was already admitting I was at least a partial
preterist. By the end of that year I was convinced about preterism, but I
was a bit apprehensive about going public about it, or about giving Bible
Studies at all, since many Christians would view me as into false doctrine.  
It was humbling in a way, reading the scriptures all those years and missing
something obvious.  It’s the power of a preconceived idea.  Finally I went
public about it on the COBU onelist, while still learning.  I also figured
it would be good for me to face tough questions about the preterist view and
see if there was something I had overlooked.

Ever since I was newly saved, I could never buy that pre-trib rapture idea
and literalist interpreting.  There are too many examples in scripture where
the literal view makes no sense, even contradictions that can’t be
explained.  I was left with too many questions with the currently popular
view.  If the earth is destroyed, why are there still nations at the end of
Revelation?  Where do these nations come from?  When I asked these type of
questions, no one had answers except to say doctrine is not important?  I
viewed that as avoiding the truth, but so many just want traditional
religion.  If doctrine isn’t important, why not be Catholic?

In the 1800?s postmillennialism was the popular view, even in the days of
Calvin who was postmillennial that was much more popular than the pre-trib,
dispensational view that was unheard of centuries ago.  There was a
historical premillenialism that dated back further.  It’s beyond me how the
pre-trib/dispensational view can now be touted as orthodox?

It takes a while to see all this, and this is not an open-minded age, but
there are still open-minded individuals.  I don’t think I’ve arrived yet,
what else will come up that I haven’t seen?  I can say with confidence I’m
on the path.  Tom, like you say about us being the sum total of our
experiences, those experiences are interwoven into our lives in such a way
to set us on our path.  I was pleasantly surprised when you turned the
corner.  I think it’s an adventure to read through the New Testament from a
preterist point of view.  Seeing the preterist view is just the beginning of
the adventure.

I think you are getting through here, I understand where you are coming
from. By the way, Tom, I don’t feel belittled by anything you said?

Mark 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:32:14 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: Care for new members...

Steve,
I didn't consider this, but you're right!  I don't know if I'd call either
grilling.  Personally, I thought maybe it was me Mike W. was talking about:
A sister I'd known well joined this list and publicly took a stance on a
controversial subject.  I never "questioned her motives" (I'm not sure what
the motives would even be) but I did write her personally and asked her
about her stance.  I didn't get a response, so maybe I went too far and if I
did, I'm very sorry.   I'll try to be more careful in the future and I also
promise to address more of my doctrinal questions in a private forum.  I
really like to hear a variety of opinions on things---seems more rounded to
me.  But it also has become apparent to this hard head of mine that, for
reasons I don't quite understand, doctrine period (not disputes) makes a lot
of people uncomfortable.  Sorry to take so long to accept this.  I take my
solace in scripture many times so I think I will have to pay attention to
how this is done in other ways.   Lori

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:15:48 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Jesse Jackson

In a message dated 1/26/01 11:25:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CindyWG404@aol.com writes:

<< I agree with Owen's comment of how to pray for Jesse.
Pray that he repents and gets saved.


This comment is classic COBU, sounding judgmental.  What makes one think
that Jesse Jackson is not among the saved?  I haven't committed his sin, but
I have sinned from time to time, whether in thought or actions. Sin is sin,
but there is repentance for the "saved" also.
I do not agree with what Mr. Jackson has done, I think it's horrible, and I
would probably not have been as understanding as his wife.  But then again,
that's the point; if she forgave him, who are we to judge.  I thank God that
some of us are not in the power to give eternal life because with all the
judgment, no one would make it.
(this is only my opinion, not meant to hurt, but food for thought) Cindy.
>>

Forgiveness from Jesse's wife should not include allowing Jesse to continue
on with his mistress(es) so that wife and girlfriends become coffee clutch
pals with one another.  Jesse should repent, that is, turn from his sin and
re-embrace monogamy so that his wife's forgiveness may not be in vain.  
Otherwise though she may forgive him, she should also exercise tough love and
no longer remain with him as a wife while she is being treated in the way he
has been treated by him.
   This sin of his shows why he has been stirring up racial strife and
promoting grossly liberal causes for some years:  He has invited demons into
his soul and they are using his position for their purposes.  Let us all pray
for the Jackson family.  Ed


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
  Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 22:01:51 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: 515

where did you get those figures?  that's a lot of money. Ellen
From:  Owen
      Dear Ellen
     From my memory of JG & ST speaking.  (So there's 2 weak links in that chain.)


A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo NY    dococ@surferz.net


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:54:52 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: John Noe

Mark Loftus wrote:I think you are getting through here, I understand where you
are coming from. By the way, Tom, I don’t feel belittled by anything you said?


Good.
I appreciate your testimony of how you got here from there.
It helps a little.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:09:38 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Care for new members...

tledonne wrote: But it also has become apparent to this hard head of mine that,
for reasons I don't quite understand, doctrine period (not disputes) makes a lot
> of people uncomfortable.  Sorry to take so long to accept this.


Wayne has said often "doctrine divides."
If we hold fast to the Head, which is Christ, we maintain the unity
of the Spirit.  I like to talk about doctrine - or I would like to talk
about doctrine in a "Hey, have you ever heard this?!" way.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 04:48:36 EST
  From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Matthew 10 as Final Christian Mission 

Sister Lori,
Regarding your following comments and questions:"Whoa---I just went to look
up something and was stopped dead in my tracks by a verse in Matthew 10 >>


Neil writes:

Matthew 10 Paraphrased

   When Jesus's christs have gathered their fellow founders to themselves,
they give them power over Christians' fetishes, to shame them out, and to
retrieve all kinds of depression and all kinds of dissolution.
   Now the identities of their fellow founders are known.........including
the insincere, who also betray them.
   These foremost they send out, and command them, saying, "Do not go into
the churches of marginal Christians, and do not enter a church of the
heterodox. But go rather to the wayward sheep of the evangelicals, spiritual
Israel. And as you go, proclaim, saying, 'The authority of true
interpretation has come.' Cheer the depressed, deliver the obsessed, retrieve
the failures, expel wrong attitudes. Freely you have received, freely give.
Fear neither poverty nor failure nor incompetence in your mission, nor
privation of your needs, nor ill equipment, nor instability; for as servants
you will be cared for.
   "Now whatever church or fellowship you enter, find out who is worthy
there, and accompany him until you go out. And when you go into a fellowship,
greet it. If the fellowship is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it
is not worthy, let your peace return to you. Whichever Christians will
neither receive you nor hear true interpretation, when you depart from that
fellowship or church, signal them your freedom from their fate. Assuredly, we
say to you, it will be more tolerable for the ancients in Jerusalem and Judea
in the Day of Judgment than for that church.
   "Behold, we send you out as weaklings in the presence of predators.
Therefore be subtle as devils, and harmless as angels. But beware of
churchmen, for they will deliver you up to councils, and denounce you in
their assemblies. And you will be brought before pastors and bishops for our
sake, as a testimony to them and to their adherents. But when they deliver
you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given
to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but
the Spirit of imitating Jesus Who speaks in you.
   "Now Christian will deliver up Christian to excommunication, and a
teacher his disciple; and converts will rise up against instructors and cause
them to be excommunicated from fellowship. And you will be hated by all for
our reputation's sake. But he who endures to the end will be vindicated.
   "But when they persecute you in one church, flee to another. For
assuredly, we say to you, you will not have visited all the churches of
evangelicals before the sons of Jesus visit.
   "A trainee is not above his trainer, nor an employee above his employer.
It is enough for a trainee that he be like his trainer, and an employee like
his employer. If they have called the owners of the enterprise 'cheaters',
how much more will they revile those serving the enterprise?
   "Therefore do not fear churchmen. For there is nothing concealed that
will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be disclosed. Whatever we
showed you by parabolic speech, explain in perfect detail. And things we only
hinted to you, proclaim in Christians' hearing. And do not fear churchmen who
execrate your names, but cannot affect your persons. But rather fear Jesus,
Who is able to destroy both person and name by fire.
   "Aren't some Christians' plans dismissible for their meager worth? But
not one of them fails in its purpose apart from Jesus Christ's curse. But the
finest details of your lives are accounted for. Do not fear, therefore; your
plan is more valuable than many plans.
   "You who acknowledge us before Christians, you we will also acknowledge
before our Teacher Who is in authority. You who deny us before Christians,
you we will also deny before our Teacher Who is in authority.
   "Do not think that we came to establish unity in church. We did not come
to establish unity, but rather schism. For we have come to set a Christian
against his teacher, a church against its denomination, and a
church-in-alliance against another church-in-alliance, and a Christian's
enemies will be members of his own fellowship. Christians who love pastors
and elders more than us are not worthy of us. And churchmen who love
assistants and congregations more than us are not worthy of us. And
Christians who will not wear apparent contradiction and follow after us are
not worthy of us. Christians who secure their places will lose them, and
Christians who lose their places for our sake will secure them.
   "Christians who welcome you welcome us, and Christians who welcome us
welcome Jesus Who sent us. Christians who welcome a preacher because he comes
as a preacher will receive a preacher's reward. And Christians who welcome a
righteous Christian because he comes as a righteous Christian will receive a
righteous Christian's reward. Christians who give any of you youthful
missionaries even the merest token of refreshment because you come as our
representatives, assuredly, we say to you, they shall by no means lose their
reward.


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 06:11:56 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 557
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:51:44 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: CONVERTED

dear mike:

i read my mail backwards and am confused.  i am not on the internet and i
have changed my address to the x-cobu@yahoo one.  is that what i should
do?  love,  ellen

ps  i got your address./  thanks.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:47:34 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: forgiveness

dear tom:  you certainly do.  i just wanted to encourage you to write.
if you need a proofreader/editor person let me know.  have a nice day.  
ellen
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:36:05 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: forgiveness

At the time, I don't know if I should've gone that far off on a
tangent about ancient history.  Thanks for the offer - I will
certainly keep it in mind - I've got fifty pages on a disc so far...
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:04:40 -0000
  From: n8vzl@qsl.net
Subject: Archives

I think we could all remain members of this list just for the sake of
the archives, unless of course all can be converted to the ex-boo
list.

Ray
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:58:17 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: re: great sight

I clicked on it when you sent it back and it went through this time--must have been a glitch.  Was this a prophecy?  Just wondering because of the signature.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:17:09 EST
  From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Jesse Jackson 

But then again, we don't know what kind of arrangements that he and his wife
have as far as other folk are concerned, they may have a "special"
understanding (yecchy thought).
Cindy.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:21:50 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Jesse Jackson 

But then again, we don't know what kind of arrangements that he and his wife
have as far as other folk are concerned, they may have a "special"
understanding (yecchy thought).
Cindy.
>>

The Jacksons may have such an arrnangement, but Jesus will not be part of it.
Ed


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:03:21 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [x-cobu] Digest Number 0
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:25:21 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: [sharpen] Care for new members./for Steve..

Hey Steve!

I saw your posts and I wanted to respond to your comments but I was in the
midst of switching my e-mail server. I appreciate yours and Carol and
Cindy's prayers and anyone else who prayed for Joanna.. She is a whole lot
better but she still has to see the Dr. to have that heart murmur checked. I
believe though, because of everyone praying, the doctors are going to hear
what is normal..

As far as our new sister in Christ, she is actually 15, not 14 and she
seems to love Jesus. As far as me discipling, I really don't know how..I
mean is, I am not a church goer or a teacher. I would like to see her faith
grow, but as of yet I have no place I have found where I would trust to
send her..So I am confused. I made her a certificate for her spiritual
birthday and I plan on giving her a new bible and encouraging her to read.
Perhaps you may have a suggestion as to what I could do as far as her faith?

Also I wanted to respond to the letters below.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:37:54 -0500 (EST)
  From: James Regan <lampoilcan@juno.com>
Subject: Christian website

Hello fellow brothers and Sisters

This Jim Regan speaking.  I live in Texas and I have a wife and one boy.  We
are presently in beautiful church, and am learning about Jesus more and
more.

One of the things that fascinates me about this church is that there are
altar calls for prayer, and the Pastor will come to you
and lay hands on you and you can feel the Holy Spirit envelop you
in his kindness.  One time I was so depressed from the past I asked Jesus to
show me he still loves me. Even though I knew in his word I felt I needed him
to show it.  And He did.  The Holy Spirit enveloped me and I felt like a
blanket of warmth was all over me.  I then could feel somehow, don’t ask me
to explain it, but somehow he gave me and internal hug in my soul.  I could feel him
squeeze me in my soul, I broke out into tears, and was in awe at how loving
he is.  We need to remember brothers and Sisters Jesus knows what we have
been through. I pray that each of you be strengthened in the name of Jesus.
Each of you be lifted up, each of you burdens be carried now in the name
of Jesus.  For Jesus knows our hurts and our sorrows.  Surely He has borne
our griefs and carried our sorrows.  Isa 53  Its past tense he has already
done it We just need to let him carry our hurts and trust him he does not
condemn us.  Father in the name of Jesus help each one of us begin to trust
you more deeply that you love as your children and you do not want to cast
us away at all.  Your sacrifice of your Righteousness, your Blood Covers us,
there is nothing that we can do to prove our worth.  It is you that is
worthy.  Worthy is the Lamb. Praise God.

Please if you want to checkout a website one stop Christian reference
website it is for us and other bros and sis the web
address is www.lampoilcan.homestead.com

You will enjoy it.
God bless, send me your feedback in the guest book.
God bless Jim Regan
Lampoilcan for the Lord.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:02:05 -0800 (PST)
  From: Michael Montoya <xboo2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Christian website

Good to have you on, Jim. And thanks for telling us
about your relationship with Jesus.

Mike

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:45:10 MST [Show full headers] 
Subject: [x-cobu] Digest Number 1
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:22:18 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: christian website

Brother Jim,
I remember you well, my dear brother from 515 : ).
I was one of the brothers in the wheelchair and repaired the carpet cleaning
equipment. My heart rejoices to hear how God has blessed you with a family and a
church. I too am married. My wife Karen and I live in NY State and have been married
for almost 12 years. I have been a member of the Sovereign Grace Baptist church since about 1985.
The Lord has been pleased to heal and restore my spirit and soul from the
ill effects of Cobu. I trust He is doing the same with you and one of the great things about this
list is how we all have been bonded thru what we went thru while in Cobu and
we can really help each other.
God bless.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

_______________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:04:58 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [sharpen] Care for new members./for Steve..

Sister Felicia,
Praise God for how He answers prayers! So glad to hear of Joanna's progress
: ).
As for how to begin discipling. Pray for her. Pray with her. Read the Bible
with her. Start in the Gospels.
Ask the Lord to help you acquaint her with the "sacred writings" as Paul
told Timothy, "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have
firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you
have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you
for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.All scripture is inspired by God
and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training
in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every
good work."
I would also urge you to learn basic doctrines like justification (Rom 4),
atonement(Rom.3), sanctification(Rom.6), to start with. These will
strengthen you and her in the faith.
Pray that the Lord helps her find a good church. And sis, if I may be so
bold, you need one also. God has called us into fellowship with Himself and
with other believers in churches of communities we live in or near. "and let
us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,not neglecting
to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and
all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
And keep in mind that our walk of faith is a process, one day at a time,
moment by moment.
May the Lord help you in all these things and more.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:21:24 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <letochef@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?

Cathy,
I think this is more what Mike W. was talking about, the hospital outlook.
David Wilkerson used to call Times Square Church that, and our time there
was very helpful.  I lose sight of who is on this list because we don't hear
from many--that is not a cut, BTW.  I've been back and forth many times here
myself, questioning if it's a healthy place or not.  Some are hesitant
because of the roughness.  But, on the other hand, some are afraid of
something too docile and orthodox I think because Stewart frowned on
anything too easy or pleasant.  They're scared it won't be real.

I left two times when I lived in, once from Brooklyn and once from 515.
Snuck away both times.  I took the subway to Manhattan from Brooklyn by
myself--it was a frightening experience (I was a small town girl), made more
frightening because, strangely enough,  a bum taunted me saying there were
no busses today.  The busses were running and I made it home.  But I cried
and cried all the time--my mother was really concerned.  Then Faith gave me
a call--she was always kind to me and some brethren from Syracuse (were you
there, Steve?) stopped by my home and took me back to NYC.  They sent me to
Stewart's home in Teaneck and I remember consciously thinking , "Yeah, throw
me to the lions."  But, even thinking that, I felt like I was due whatever
was going to be dished out to me.  Actually, my time at Teaneck opened my
eyes to a few things and I didn't get a verbal beating--just a "Did you gain
weight?" and a "Why don't you and Sissy go on a diet together?"  (Well, we
all realize these days how much Stewart was into women's bodies, don't we?)
But what I did see was how different his lifestyle was and those
"privileged" enough to live there. (That's how I looked at it then, but I
know now differently.  There was never any respite for them--always under
that condemning eye).  But Teaneck was suburbia and a far cry from those
roach-infested apts we lived in.  People woke up when they woke up---no, "be
at the garage by X-time early in the morning, or suffer for it).  They still
slept on the floor, but they could go outside by themselves, take walks,
etc.  Though I would make excuses for the differences in living style, it
was one thought that stayed with me.  Another was his rudeness.  I would
make excuses for that too.  I don't think we realized it when we were
younger, but as I got older (culminating in that Stone Mountain Meeting I
think) I realized sometimes he would be groping a bit, trying to find the
words that would turn the tide to his favor.  I saw this in his public
conversation with Patti Daniels then.  And he would always be right because
he could find something wrong with us to discount our stance.  But, since
we're all sinners saved by grace, I don't think that's the way to to get to
the truth.   Well, this is longer than I'd planned so I'll quit for now.


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:10:08 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: christian website

Dear James that was such a beautiful description of your church! I am glad
you have found a place that you can rest and feel the love of God and Jesus!

Thank you!

CK
_____________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:31:26 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <letochef@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: christian website

Jim,
Were you in Brooklyn?  I think I know you, but I'm not sure about the last
name.  It is great to hear from you.  I know these internal hugs you're
speaking of.
Lori (Briggs) LeDonne
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:27:14 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I think it is great but if it is not we can go back to the old or try something else .It seems every day there is something newer available on the internet. Knowledge shall increase .isnt that an end time prophecy?
Love in Christ  
Rich Farretta

____________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:40:21 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?


Dear Lori,
I appreciate your response here. I wanted to say I was having trouble
with my mailbox again...I feel stupid  :?/ ...I got it fixed now. I got a
watch checking those little boxes in the tools section, chick a chick a,
and click on and I am messed up--LOL I got check crazy.

Anyhow that was cool what you wrote Lori. I never knew that about your
scary ride on the bus!! Poor kid! ST preyed on the younger..What a wimp and
a creep! He didn't even have the guts or the strength to deal with older
people..only the young and innocent..
And he had the gall to call our brothers in Christ LAZY! Jeesh...I was
tortured in those meetings as I watched him tear down one after another
after another. I was sick!!!!

Anyway I enjoyed what you wrote here. I was thinking of asking Mike if he
had a copy of  those notes from that meeting--maybe he could post them for
all to read. They really helped me understand, and began to chip away at
the spiritual bondage I lived constantly.

LOVE

ck
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:31:43 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: Is anyone hooked up with Calvary Chapel or Vineyard

I spent years looking for a church where I felt somewhat normal and found that The Vineyard and Calvary chapels which are nationwide were able to allow me to experience the love of God .Does anyone on the board have any comments on either of those Church organizations? I present attend a Calvary Chapel in Ft Lauderdale that has about 20,000 people attend on any given weekend  

Love In Christ
Rich Farretta 

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:38:32 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?

Sis ,
Forgiveness is good for the soul. I know Stewart did bad things to us but remember Corrie Ten boom and Richard wurmbrandt they were able to forgive and went through far worse than us.
Love In Christ
Rich Farretta
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:16:00 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Is anyone hooked up with Calvary Chapel or Vineyard

Hey Rich,
My ex-husband and I went to Calvary in Ft. Lauderdale. They have the
Baptism in the ocean and they are huge. I think it is a very good church.

CK

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:15:23 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is anyone hooked up with Calvary Chapel or Vineyard

When did you go there ? Did you know you can listen to Sunday services on the internet?
cool
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:23:44 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?

Dear Rich,
I have to agree with you on one point that forgiveness is right!! But at
this point, I find it hard to forgive him.. Other times I have....But new
stuff about him just keeps cropping up!
At any rate, thanks for your concern for me..

The second point is this---I doubt that Corrie Ten Boom or Richard
Wurmbrand suffered any more than any one of us. Our sufferings are all
different...Theirs came in physical prison.....my suffering has been both
physical and emotional...If you compare your sufferings to anothers, and
say you have no right to feel this way, that you suffered then  may be
demeaning your own sufferings and trials as unimportant..Don't do that to
yourself!
Corrie or Richard would tell you the same, Rich, I am sure!

Your sister in Christ

CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:32:56 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Is anyone hooked up with Calvary Chapel or Vineyard

Yes  Rich, every Sunday!   :)
We attended Pastor Bob's church about 9 or 10 years ago, then it was
smaller, about 10,000. LOL
I think we were there when the brother came in from CA to dedicate the new
building. I lived his testimony, and the things he spoke of. Were you at
that meeting?
CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:18:44 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Fw: [sharpen] Care for new members...

Got them both.  Thanks for the confirmation.
Eventually all the mail will be "yahooed"
Were the Yahoos those little people that tied up Gulliver?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:30:26 -0000
  From: rng777@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?

-Sis you cannot think that forgiveness is optional it is not. it is
mandatory do not let the devil  hurt you with that lie. Forgiveness
will set you free .-I was using Richard and Corrie as examples of 2
people who have forgiven much I am not comparing myself to them-
forgiveness is not a feeling it is a decision and i believe that
Stewart became deceived and is not in his right mind  he became
influenced by lying demons.

I hope you can
make a decision today to forgive him in your heart , he desperately
needs your prayers.
love in Christ
Richard Farretta
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:34:00 -0000
  From: rng777@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [sharpen] Care for new members...

--I think they were lillaputans-
_____________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________ 

Message: 19
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:37:38 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is anyone hooked up with Calvary Chapel or Vineyard

Felicia .I found a new free service that beats net zero by light years let me know if you want to try it.
Rich
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:48:16 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?

Thanks ,

You're a good brother and I hear your heartfelt response! I pray one day I
will fully forgive the man...But right now I am struggling..Yours is a good
reminder.

Love your sister in Christ
CK

_____________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:48:24 -0500
  From: "Raynard Merritt" <AFA1LQ@HOME.COM>
Subject: Re: ITS WORKING

Could we re-post all the messages from Sharpen to get the archives here?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:00:42 -0500
  From: "Raynard Merritt" <AFA1LQ@HOME.COM>
Subject: Snake

Subject: A Green Grass Snake


A couple in Sweetwater, Texas had a lot of potted plants, and during a
recent cold spell, the wife was bringing a lot of them indoors to protect
them from a possible freeze. It turned out that a little green garden grass
snake was hidden in one of the plants and when it had warmed up, it slithered out
and the wife saw it go under the sofa. She let out a very loud scream.
The husband who was taking a shower ran out into the living room naked
to see what the problem was. She told him there was a snake under the sofa.
He got down on the floor on his hands and knees to look for it. About that time
the family dog came and cold-nosed him on the leg. He thought the
snake had bitten him and he fainted. His wife thought he had
a heart attack, so she called an ambulance. The attendants rushed in and
loaded him on the stretcher and started carrying him out. About that time the
snake came out from under the sofa and the Emergency Medical Technician
saw it and dropped his end of the stretcher. That's
when the man broke his leg and why he is in the hospital. The wife still had
the problem of the snake in the house, so she called on
a neighbor man. He volunteered to capture the snake. He armed
himself with a rolled-up newspaper and began poking under the couch. Soon he decided it
was gone and told the woman, who sat down on the sofa in relief. But in
relaxing, her hand dangled in between the cushions, where she felt
the snake wriggling around. She screamed and fainted, the snake rushed back
under the sofa, and the neighbor man, seeing her laying there passed out tried to
use CPR to revive her. The neighbor's wife, who had just returned from shopping at the grocery
store, saw her husband's mouth on the woman's mouth and slammed her
husband in the back of the head with a bag of canned goods, knocking him out and
cutting his scalp to a point where it needed stitches. An ambulance
was again called and it was determined that the injury required
hospitalization. The noise woke the woman from her dead faint and she saw her neighbor
lying on the floor with his wife bending over him, so she assumed he had been
bitten by the snake. She went to the kitchen, brought back a small
bottle of whiskey, and began pouring it down the man's throat. By now the
police had arrived. They saw the unconscious man, smelled the whiskey, and
assumed that a drunken fight had occurred. They were about to arrest them all,
when the two women tried to explain how it all happened over a little green
snake. They called an ambulance, which took away the neighbor and his sobbing
wife. Just then the little snake crawled out from under the couch. One of
the policemen drew his gun and fired at it. He missed the snake and hit
the leg of the end table that was on one side of the sofa. The table fell
over and the lamp on it shattered and as the bulb broke, it started a fire in the
drapes. The other policeman tried to beat out the flames and fell
through the window into the yard on top of the family dog, who startled, jumped
up and raced out into the street, where an oncoming car swerved to avoid it
and smashed into the parked police car and set it on fire. Meanwhile the
burning drapes had spread to the walls and the entire house was blazing. Neighbors had
called the fire department and the arriving fire-truck had started
raising his ladder as they were halfway down the street. The rising
ladder tore out the overhead wires and put out the electricity and
disconnected the telephones in a ten-square city block area.

Time passed ----------------- Both men were discharged from the
hospital, the house was rebuilt, the police acquired a new car, and all was right
with their world -------

About a year later they were watching TV and the weatherman announced a
cold snap for that night. The husband asked his wife if she thought
they should bring in their plants for the night.
She shot him!

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________ 

Message: 25
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:43:48 -0500
  From: Felicia Miller <ckmezzz@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Is anyone hooked up with Calvary Chapel or Vineyard

I think it came in two parts...Because their services are so large they
have to break them down into two meetings--I was at the one in doors--I
don't remember if it was Chuck Smith though...No I think it was both Chucks
and Bobs senior pastor.

Any rate it was a beautiful service.
CK
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 02:12:07 MST [Show full headers]
 Subject: [x-cobu] Digest Number 2
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
  Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:50:43 -0000
  From: Yacov Prasch <jacob@moriel.org>
Subject: RE: Fw: [sharpen] Care for new members...

Greetings in Jesus from England.

Bro Steve Saxton,

Are you the guy who is confined to a wheelchair?

(James Jacob Prasch, Moriel Ministries)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________ 

Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:30:42 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Some Answers?

In a message dated 1/27/01 11:50:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ckmezzz@netzero.net writes:

<< >Stewart became deceived and is not in his right mind he became
>influenced by lying demons.
> >>

Amen.  And certain others have been passed this same problem by him.  Ed


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
  Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:34:54 -0500
  From: "richard farretta" <rng777@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Cathy ,
  do not panic give yourself a couple days to get used to the new yahoo thing , I am struggling a little with it as well but we will figure it out relax sis.
Love In Christ
Richard Farretta
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________