Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:51:23 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 539

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Message: 1
  Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:50:40 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: humor
 

From:  Owen
       Dear
 
Signs in Front of Churches

 *  You are not too bad to come in.  You are not toogood
    to stay out.
 *  Come in and let us prepare you for your finals.
 *  A miser is a rich pauper.
 *  Ask about our pray-as-you-go plan.
 *  We hold sit-in demonstrations every Sunday.
 *  No matter how much you nurse a grudge it won't get
    better.
 *  If some people lived up to their ideals they would be
    stooping.
 *  Everything you always wanted to know about heaven
    and hell but were afraid to ask.
 *  Patience is the ability to stand something as long asit
    happens to the other fellow.
 *  [At an Arizona church in August] You think it's hot
    HERE?
 *  I was going to waste, but Jesus recycled me.
 *  Our arms are the only ones God has to hug His
   children.
 *  K-mart is not the only saving place.

 Submitted by Doc  [NOT ME]

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 2
  Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:17:33 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Fw: rat race

>  This puts the rat race into perspective...

Puts it in excellent perspective.
BTW - the rat race is over.
The rats won.

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Message: 3
  Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:32:37 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: God ordains...

> Which also means Clinton reigned 8 years because of God.  IsGod
> really in charge? From: Owen
>         Dear Tom
>        Here's how I handle it:  God gave free will to sinners.  Thus
> sinners will choose to do bad, and the results will be.
The scriptures say something like "those putin office are put
there by God."
So to say 'hurray' God chose one is moot - practically.
We always hope a new President will bring better things.

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Message: 4
  Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:28:38 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: Bush...  a Christian...

> I would say that Bush and Gore have really notmuch knowledge of the
> real world being raised in the bubbles theywere.      Do I have any
> argument there?From:  Owen
>         Dear Tom
>        Itdepends what you meanby the real world.  If you mean
> cleaning carpets and fighting in the playground, then I suppose you're
> right.  But if you mean how the insidersmanipulate things then I
> suggest that they are the experts on the realworld.

Obviously, the real world would be cleaning carpets.
I tend to think of the real world as the "school of hard knocks."
The real world of career politicians is Disneyland - but with makeitor
break it implications.  In Lincoln's day a boy could grow up tobe
President.
Today, your dad can pick the people who'll pick you.
If the scales would have tipped toward Gore it would have been thesame
exact thing - only the other side would be losers looking for fault.
I have an article - it's long - but one of those "ties" for Pres. went
on for months -and every decision that had to be made everywhere bywhatever committee
went straight down partisan lines also.  Only thing is - thatonewas
muchuglier.The real world - in the case of the politician today - thecareer
politician -they are people who never had to "work" for a living. I thinkthere's
somethingwrong with that.  How can Clinton "feel my pain?"!
And people today - most are so busy working, getting the kids fromday
care,planning supper and getting the laundry done - they don't havemuch
chance tocheck into what's going on.  What's going on is themstruggling to  make
endsmeet.  Is that the real world?  Both spouses workingandstill can't pay
the bills....

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Message: 5
  Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:40:15 -0400
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Kutztown, 6-23-00, Olde good things report,

Hello Herm,

Sometimes I wish I were that far behind in reading posts! Actually,
this message somehow got stored in my outbox and when Rick was fixing
my mail it was resent.

Maybe it's a sign you should follow up on that meeting...

Mary
 
 

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Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:03:53 -0400
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: movies

Hello Tom,

Rick & the kids loved The Matrix but I don't usually care for action
movies ... Jackie Chan ones are fun though.

Mary Robinson

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Message: 7
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:46:32 -0500
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: old messages

Hello Everyone,

Sorry about the last 2 messages ... they had been in my queue for a
while ... and were inadvertantly sent!

Mary

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 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:16:27 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 540

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Message: 1
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:03:48 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: old messages

> Hello Everyone,
>
> Sorry about the last 2 messages ... they hadbeen in my queue fora
> while ... and were inadvertantly sent!

Were you waiting for another cue?

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Message: 2
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:08:15 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: 15 yrs out of COBU

> Congrats Carol...I will be married 13 years on January 30.  Ihad prepared
> everything for my wedding but forgot that I'dneed something overmy wedding
> gown for the outside because it was winter.  January 30 endedup being one of
> the warmest days of winter 55 degrees and wasI ever grateful.

Some people say the government controls the weather.
Some people say the weather is as predictable as the weather.
Some say God controls the weather.
On your wedding day, it seems to me God let the desires of your
heart control the weather and He pulled some strings just for you.

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Message: 3
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:35:09 -0500
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: Re[2]: old messages

Hello Tom,

Thank q.

That message to Herm just won't die. It is on its 3rd or 4th q.

Mary

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Message: 4
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:54:41 -0500
  From: "Eric Fetterolf" <fetterof@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: old messages

Q from Star trek says hello
eric

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Message: 5
  Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:22:40 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: humor
 

From:  Owen
       Dear
 
7. When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
 9. Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:28:17 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: this goes on to the end

just curious.  haven't been here for awhile and won't be baCK for about 4
more days.  hannah and i are going away to pray for 3 days. i really
need to hear from God so please pray for me right now.  i wasjust
wondering what this is all about.  what newly discovered teachingare you
guys referring to?  be back this weekend.   ellen

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Message: 7
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:49:23 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: poem

why do people insist on calling our nation a democracy when it is
supposed to be a republic?  you know....for the republic for whichit
stands...?       ellen

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Message: 8
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:31:32 -0500
  From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
Subject: Gasp!

 
 
Ashcroft's Crime? He's - Gasp - a Christian
 Jack Thompson
 Wednesday, Jan. 10, 2001
If President-elect Bush was not up to speed on the Democrats' cleveruseof "bipartisanship" as an excuse to strip his Cabinet of conservatives,heis now.
Linda Chavez's withdrawal has now heightened the stakes, exponentially,for both sides in the looming fight over John Ashcroft's attorney generalnomination. If 1) radical left interest groups and 2) their Democraticfellow travelers in the Senate, aided by 3) biased media cover (the threegroups comprising what I call the "persecution triangle") do to Ashcroftwhat they did toChavez, the Bush presidency as a force for reform willhave been abortedbefore the oath of office is even administered.

The persecution triangle knows it cannot take out Ashcroft on policygrounds. There is absolutely no precedent in American history for that,and the criticism of his distinguished record has not gotten traction.

Therefore, the persecution triangle will not try to "Bork" Ashcroft.The triangle, fresh from what Clarence Thomas might call "the high-techlynching of an uppity Latino," is poised to use the "C" word (Christian)to takeout Ashcroft.

The "C" word is already being used in hushed voices on the left. Whispers, which will become shouts, are being uttered, in the Village Voice and elsewhere, that Ashcroft's Christianity is an "extreme" Christianity. My decade ofefforts against obscenity and violent entertainment has taught me thatanti-Christianity is the first and last refuge of the scoundrels on theleft.

That is why, when I met Sen. Ashcroft in Tallahassee, Fla., more thana month ago outside Judge N. Sanders Sauls' courtroom, the first thingoutof my mouth was: "Senator, I am a Christian, and I am proud of youas mybrother." His eyes got wide, then they got wider, along with hisgentlesmile, when I told him I ran against Janet Reno.

He understood, without my telling him, the price of doing the Lord'swork in Miami, because he has been doing the Lord's work on the nationalstage. He has paid a price, but he would be the first to tell you thatthe blessings have been greater still.

The Apostle Paul writes, "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, butagainst the powers and the principalities of the air." In other words,our dailystruggles are really spiritual warfare. That is precisely whythe goodness,the selfless charity, of Linda Chavez was not abided by theanti-God Squadof the persecution triangle.

And that is why the fight over Ashcroft means so much and will be stunning - and a revelation - to watch. Al Gore said on Nov. 5, "This election isabout good versus evil."

Mark that down as one of the true things Al Gore said.

So go ahead, persecution triangle. Throw John Ashcroft into the Christianity briar patch. Make this Christian president-elect's day. Let the spiritual warfare begin.

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Message: 9
  Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:39:35 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: old messages
 

That's qute...

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Message: 10
  Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:20:19 -0500
  From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: One for the sisters

1. Don't imagine you can change a man unless he's in diapers.

2. What do you do if your boyfriend walks-out? You shut the door.

3. If they put a man on the moon -- they should be able to put themall up
there.

4. Never let your man's mind wander -- it's too little to be out alone.

5. Go for younger men. You might as well, they never mature anyway.

6. Men are all the same -- they just have different faces, so that you can
tell them apart.

7. Definition of a bachelor; a man who has missed the opportunity tomake
some woman miserable.

8. Women don't make fools of men -- most of them are the do-it-yourself
types.

9. Best way to get a man to do something, is to suggest they are tooold for
it.

10. Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye-opener.

11. If you want a committed man, look in a mental hospital.

12. The children of Israel wandered around the desert for 40 years.Even in
biblical times, men wouldn't ask for directions.

13. If he asks what sort of books you're interested in, tell him checkbooks.

14. Remember a sense of humor does not mean that you tell him jokes,it
means that you laugh at his.

15. Sadly, all men are created equal.

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Message: 11
  Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:29:42 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: poem

In real terms  - it obviously makes a difference.
In my mind, since I am not aware of the difference,
it's just semantics.  Who has the daffynitions?
( then you can tell me how the people control
the government and all the other highfalutin things that I
guess used to be way back in the day)
 
 

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 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:36:44 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 541

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Message: 6
  Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:28:28 -0500
  From: "Eric Fetterolf" <fetterof@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: old messages

Very Creative- What is your I............Q?
Eric

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Message: 7
  Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:51:03 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: poem

dear tom:

it's really not at all semantics.  actually democracy is supposed to be a
people-controlled government as you put it.  a republic is a government
controlled by those elected or appointed to the task depending on the
culture you refer to.  the federalists--like madison for example&
hamilton & others-- never thought to have a government run by the
people--only by the educated and appointed few.  they would neverhave
trusted anything run by the masses.  anyway, it's not a semantic
difference, but somehow today the two terms have become almost synonymous
even though they are not.  just like so many things.
       love,  ellen

ps--just got back.  hannah and i had a really really great timetogether.
we both feel rejuvenated; i almost feel like i did when i just gotsaved
only i'm not headed for cobu.  my perspective is much clearerthanit was
when i left.  nothing beats some time with jesus.       e

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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:27:12 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 542

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Message: 1
  Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:53:18 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: humor

Brother Owen,
Good one-heh, heh, heh-Reminds me of the old Roger Miller song, "Youcan't roller skate in buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you've a mindtoo".: )
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 2
  Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:38:49 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: not semantics

> it's really not at all semantics.  actually democracy is supposedto be a
> people-controlled government as you put it.  a republic is agovernment
> controlled by those elected or appointed tothe task depending onthe
> culture you refer to.  somehow today thetwo terms have becomealmost
> synonymous  even though they are not.  just like so many things.
>  ps--just got back.  hannah and ihad a really really great time together.
>  we both feel rejuvenated; i almost feellike i did when i just got saved
> only i'm not headed for cobu.  my perspective is much clearerthan it was
> when i left.  nothing beats some timewith jesus.               e

Thank you for the definition.  I knew they were different.
It's just that around the election debacle people were calling in
the only talk station left in town and saying "We have a republic"
and the host would hang up on the people because he had heard
enough of that.  I mean over and over.  But indeed yes -you're
absolutely right - and it is sort of "wrong" to say we're a democracy
and it seems so strange.  That's what I remember being taughtinschool.
But you gotta remember, the government runs the schools and knows how
they want us indoctrinated.  This sort of ties in with interpretation.
Meaning,
the meaning of words changes and grows or in some cases withers. Like
this situation.  Democracy and republic - who even uses the word'republic'
- and that's what we are!
I think Paul used alliteration and all kinds of interesting stuff whenhe
wrote and communicated with those he loved.  After all, Paul quoted
pagan poets when trying to get his message across to others.
What sayings and twists and turns of speech did he incorporate and
have been lost to us?  Probably nothing earth shattering. Steveaptly
showed us John 3:16 stands up no matter how you say it.
It's good you could get away and be refreshed in Christ.
It does my spirit well just to hear you're refreshed.

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Message: 4
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 02:24:43 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: poem
 

From:  Owen
       Dear Ellen
      I forwarded the poem from ___. I wouldnever make that mistake myself.

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:44:29 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 543

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Message: 3
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:19:07 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Richard Stands

why do people insist on calling our nation a democracy when it is
      supposed to be a republic?  youknow....for the republic for which it
     stands...? Ellen
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Message: 4
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:30:24 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: AFTER CALVARY

That picture up top looks like Thomas being told
"Do not be faithless, but believing."
Which shows how great Jesus is.
Can you imagine the long silences and the grinding
of the spirits if Stewart were in charge of someone
who made a statement like Thomas did eight days before
Jesus landed Thomas?
I always wondered how Thomas went about living those
eight days in-between his "bold" statement and Jesus
saying, okay, here you are...
Did Thomas have a smug, pouted look on his face
for all that time?
Did he think his brothers and sisters were crazy or trying
to pull some prank on him saying they saw a resurrected
Jesus?
Was Thomas avoided, chided, ridiculed, consoled -
perhaps all of those things.
Just wondering...

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Message: 5
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:49:00 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: the "world"

Mark,
Hi.  I read through your letter once and now am going throughagain,but it
will take me a while to check things out and reply.  I haven'thadmuch time
for writing lately.
Hope you don't mind if I just reply to a few things here.

YOU SAID
> So when Paul spoke of the gospel being preached throughout the whole world
> (as I cited in the last letter from Col. 1:23and Rom.16:26, Rom.10:18),
> don't you think that Paul was writing underthe inspiration of theHoly
> Spirit?  If we're saying that Paul waswrong, that puts us inthe same
> predicament as C. S. Lewis. If the gospel hasbeen preached intoall the
> world as Jesus said then surely "the end" must have come!  Jesus certainly
> did not indicate a long delay between fulfillment of the World Commission
> and the end; he said "the gospel will be preached in all the world,then
> comes the end."
ME
Mark, as I understand it and using my understanding of "world," thegospel
has not yet reached the whole world, though we're approaching thattime.
Did you ever check out Jeff Bernstein's newsletter and that "window"that
still exists where they haven't heard the gospel?  And I think,oncethis
gospel has been preached around the world as a testimony to "all nations",
then the end WILL come.  With the increase in technology, thiswillcontinue
to speed up.

> >YOU
> If the gospel has been preached into all theworld then the modernclaim
> that Jesus' prediction has never been fulfilled is false.  IfJesus'
> prediction has been fulfilled then Jesus isvindicated as the Sonof God,
wecan trust the Bible as true, and salvationhas come to reality.
>
> Looking at Jesus use of the term "world" (Gk."Kosmos"), here Heis
> addressing the high priest;
> John 18:20  - "Jesus answered him, 'Ispake openly to the world; I ever
> taught in the synagogue, and in the temple,whither the Jews wouldalways
> resort; and in secret have I said nothing'."(KJV)
> Jesus spoke to the world, yet He never travelled very far, stayingwithin
> the world of Palestine; and thus speaking tothe "world of Judaism".
There  were men of many nations and languageswhom Jesus never addressed, He was
> sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
ME
But remember how it was "too light a thing" in Isaiah?  True,Jesusdid not
personally address the whole world, but He knew where His word wasgoing.
Remember the woman at the well?  "How is it that you, a Jew,..."

>YOU
> Matthew 13:38 - "the field is the world", v24the man sowed goodseed in
> "his field" which is a specific plot of ground which is cultivatedand
> separated from other areas of the earth.  Isaiah 5 ties in here, the world
> is God's cultivated field, in the parable ofthe vineyard which hada
hedge  around it.  Matt.13:41 identifiesthe field as "His Kingdom", which is the
> world, here limited and finite in scope.  The New Testamentisn't coming
> from the 20th century rationalistic mindset.
ME
I think you're kind of mixing things inappropriately here.  Ifyou're saying
the world is the field, how can you say it's a specific plot of itself?  How
about the earth is the field, a specific plot of the universe?   And the
Spirit might hedge us in?  Just some thoughts.

> YOU
One good example of traditional teachings thatdon't work is the dividing of
> Matthew 24.  Most will agree that verses1 to 28 apply to thefirst
century  destruction of Jerusalem. Then comes verse 29:
> "Immediately after the tribulation of thosedays shall the sun be
darkened,  and the moon shall not give herlight, and the stars shall fall from
heaven,  and the powers of the heavens shallbe shaken".
>
> Modern dispensationalists want to have verse29 as only dealing with the
> future, thus a gap theory of 2,000 years andcounting between verse28 and
> 29.  One problem is that the language,"Immediately after thetribulation
of  those days." does not lend it self tosuch division, and sounds likeit
> stays in that context.  "Immediately"does not mean 2,000 years later.
> Later in the same chapter Jesus points outthat "all these things"will
> happen to "this generation", which leaves noroom for a gap.

ME
How I've understood this is that Jesus knew His audience was more thanthose
He spoke to at that time.  I still feel His written words weremorefor us
than those who heard Him personally.  This is why the scripture"speaks" to
me.  When I read the Bible, I don't feel like I'm reading historybecause
I'm not.  Time is an earthly thing, and Jesus was not limitedbyit.
Whoa---I just went to look up something and was stopped dead in mytracksby
a verse in Matthew 10 where Jesus told His disciples that they wouldn'tget
through all the towns in Israel before the Son of Man comes. So nowI'm
confused.  I've read that verse many times, how many, but somehowwith the
mindset of "He hasn't come back," I thought He was talking to the generation
that saw the gospel preached around the world.  Did those apostlesactually
make it to all the towns of Israel?  I guess that might be mootsince, even
with my mindset, somebody must have.  Unless "towns of Israel"meansmore
than it seems.  Well, I'm confused.  What do others say aboutthat verse?
This is jumping ahead because I need to check out a lot of things,butjust
where does this preterorist view leave Christians of this age? Whatare you
hoping for?  I think I'll post this to the list because I'd likeothers'
input as well.  Maybe I'm just so dull I'm missing something obvious?
                               Lori
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Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 14:05:02 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: john's father

dear all:

please pray for john's family right now as his father is in the later
stages of bone cancer.  tomorrow we will know exactly how baditis.
please pray specifically that:
---John's father would accept Jesus as His savior
---John would know when he should go down there ( the PO is sendinghim
to OK on the 21st for a week)
---a release of Jesus' Spirit over the whole family.  some areCatholic
believers, but others were brought up Catholic and do not know theLord.
---comfort and help esp. for John's mother
---closure for John's father with his family.  joseph called himon
Friday and Elijah last night, but it is a very large family and manyare
far away.

       Thank you very much and may Jesus bless you.

              love,  ellen
John's family is a very UNemotional family so this may be particularly
difficult for them all.
 

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Message: 7
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:56:13 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Richard Stands

i remember the palms up thing.  my kids try to get me mad whenitell them
to do something by using the nazi salute.  they think that becauseiam
german this will really get under my skin and it did at first, butihave
overcome and now i laugh at them and tell them i have attained onlytomy
"evil mom lady" badge, but that i'm working on "wicked"  theyhavesince
given up the salute. whew!  am i glad, but don't tell
them.       e

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Message: 8
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:44:37 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: not semantics
 

there is so much that we lose.  i think that's why so many American
Christians have turned to studying the ancient traditions and practices
surrounding the high holy days of the Jews, and seeing the fulfillmentof
them in the life of Jesus.  studying that gives you a much greater
appreciation and understanding of what He was all about and what Hewas
actually saying. i recently heard that in Eastern culture when a manand
woman are betrothed that he goes away and builds her a home. whilehe is
away he sends periodic gifts to his betrothed.  when she receivesagift
of gold, she immediately gets herself ready because she knows he'scoming
very soon.  that brought a whole new understanding to john 14forme.

as for this country-- we are acting as a democracy even though thatis
not what we are supposed to be.  i pray we will be returned totheother,
but i honestly have little faith that that will happen.  we neednational
repentance aND NOTHING less. sorry---hit the caps thing.  wasn'ttrying
to underscore that.

i was feeling rather dry when we left.  i found myself in the Presence of
God full of my ideas and agendas and stuff, and He just wanted to bewith
me.  it was a great relief to lay them all down again and spendtimewith
Him alone without anyone bothering me or demanding anything from me--like
a diaper change.  i bless john and andrew for letting us go andtaking
care of the little guy so well while we were gone.  hannah hascomehome
with a renewed hunger for God like i have never seen in her before.
speaking of john, please pray for his family.  his father is inthelast
stages of bone cancer and as far as we can tell, is not saved. joe
called him the other night from school and elijah was gong to calllast
night.  his father is getting a test done tomorrow that will tellhow bad
it is and what options there are.  i have a feeling his fatherdoesnot
intend to explore any of them.  please just pray for all of them.  they
are not an emotional family compared to mine, but they are
tight-knit--some Catholic believers among them and others not believers
so pray.

it was nice to hear from you.  have a happy Sunday.  love,  ellen

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Message: 9
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:52:46 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: poem

i knew you didn't write that, owen.  just had to put my two cents in.

       love,  ellen

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Message: 11
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 15:44:35 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: "Wanted"

     I am in the middle of organizing thematerialI have from COBU
(spanning from before I joined, through the time I was there, to probably
most of the few things they have put out since I left).  MikeMontoya had
passed on to me material sent to him and besides my own stuff (I saved
EVERYTHING from my time there lol) I have some material others havesentme
as well.  I have organized the tapes, re-recording ones that wereinbad
shape and am almost done organizing the bible studies, workbooks,
questionnaires, brochures, announcements, etc., etc..  I havealwaysfelt it
was necessary to preserve this stuff...so many of us worked hard andlong
within COBU and I feel that a memory needs to be preserved.
     However, I realize I'm missing somethings.  If anyone has any extra
copies of the following and would be willing to send them to me, letmeknow.
Rescue and Develop Haiti Brochure
Brochure advertising the Stone Mountain Manor plus anything relatingtothat
     Big Meeting
Big Meeting brochures or flyers in general.  I probably have mostofthese,
but think
     I'm missing some...particularly beforeJanuary1976 (the first Big
Meeting I attended)  and after 1985 (January 1986 was the lastBigMeeting I
attended).Lamb ledgers from 1979-1981 (and beyond but I think thereweren't anyafter
1981.  I have 1977 and 1978 lamb ledgers)
Shepherd buttonNewspaper clippings on COBU (I probably have most ofthis, but don'tknow for
sure)The "homemade" Get Smart Get Saved button (I still have the original one I
earned,  but by the time I joined in November,1975, they werealready being
"massproduced")
"Announcement sheets"  in the form of daily or weekly generalmessages.  I
have  a lot of these, but there may be more
Audio tapes...I have hardly any tapes from after 1977-78...and theremaybe
tapesfrom before 1976 that I don't have.
Anything else that anyone feels would be important to be preservedinarchive
form.
     I have found some interesting itemsI had forgotten about such as the
"Kidnapping Handbook," the lamb course (I managed to save all 20 lessons), a
letter Randy Tausch wrote to COBU after he had been "deprogrammed,"The10
Evils, a sheet I typed up from a Spring Street Sister Loft meetinginwhich
Stewart sounded so generous in suggesting that the sisters get beds...and as
you can imagine I could go on and on.
     I'm sure it will come as no surprisethat Iam on school break right
now.  Last semester was so much less stressful as I had normalprofessors
(for a change) and took 9 credits instead of 14 as I had done lastyear.
     Anyway, anything anyone could send wouldbemuch appreciated.
     Many thanks.

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Message: 12
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 19:53:49 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: john's father

Ellen...I will keep John's father, as well as your whole family, inmy
prayers.

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Message: 14
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 19:37:36 -0800
  From: "shenri" <shenri@sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

I HAVE A COPY OF THE LAMB LEDGER (JUNE 77 VOL1,NO=10) AND THE RESURRECTION WORKBOOK GIVEN TO ME FROM Debbie Young[it has her name on the cover}ifyou are interested,let me know and I have a French version of the shepherdtrack witch was full of typing errors{I remember that controversy,but wegavethem away anyway}.Sylvain
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Message: 15
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 21:50:28 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: john's father
 

Dear Ellen,

I will pray tonight (Sunday), as requested.

Love,
Cathy

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Message: 16
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Dear Maureen,

I have a "Gospel of John in Colors" and also an "Employment Status"card
from the MTC, which was a daily report card that we had to complete.  It
asks questions such as, "Lead anyone to Jesus today?"  "Lead anyoneto
rededication today?"  "Turn in lamb cards?"  "Did you moveintoan apt.
today?"  "Did you get paid today?"  "Did you turn in paycheck?"  "Did you
turn in pay check last week"?   "Did you gain or lose a jobtoday?"
(Just a little piece of paper which speaks volumes, now that I'm readingit
again.)

The rest I sent to Mike last year -  NYC loft meeting transcripts, etc. and
a letter which is on his site.

Love in Christ,
Cathy

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Message: 17
  Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:44:50 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: the "world"

>  Unless "towns of Israel" means more
> than it seems.  Well, I'm confused.  What do others sayabout that verse?
> This is jumping ahead because I need to checkout a lot of things,but just
> where does this preterorist view leave Christians of this age?  What are you
> hoping for?  I think I'll post this tothe list because I'dlike others'
> input as well.  Maybe I'm just so dullI'm missing somethingobvious?
>                                  Lori

You are not dull at all.  I don't think anyone on this list isdull.
And, though you might say, gee, it's as plain on the nose on your
face - we can't see right now.  We've donned the glasses we'vebeen
 given and a veil has lain over our eyes for all this time.
We're virtually powerless to see but that which has been handed down.
Like the Jews views of the news of the Messiah.
 Jesus obviously was not it.   (in their mindset)
Even the disciples doubted.  John the Baptist questioned.
And so should we question what we've been handed on a silver
platter now.  ("pun" intended)
We're the product of our environment - our matrix that
produces out mindset.  That cannot be said enough.
        And, as they
say, "the best place to hide is in plain sight."  We're not dull.
But I do think what I am is a victim.  First of Stewart and thatwhole
mindset that came from that matrix - and now 20th century practices
and beliefs.  The book I just read recently and talked about alittle was
introductory in nature and easy to follow and mind opening like youcoming
across that verse in Mt 10.  It's hard to go at this subject askingquestions
like was John still alive then? and things like that, that I reallydon'teven
         think come into themix.
But I think we're all victims of our present matrix which I would haveto
say is extremely dull.  Case in point, without writing anotherthesis -
elders.  They're all over the place.  But are they? Accordingto some
churches they are - because they "make" them.

Bear with me - an example:  A boy's mom
would have in the fridge a hard boiled egg marked with an "X" on it
that he loved to eat after school every day.
One day the boy came home, and for some reason the mother never
got around to making that egg for her son.  ( I know, you boilabunch
      and leave 'em in there...)  Sohe went into the
egg carton, went over to the drawer with the marker in it, and proceeded
 to put a large "X" on the egg so that he could eat it. We knowwhat
   happened next.

Just because you label something something doesn't mean that's what
it is.  Stewart can say he discovered grace - but I wonder whathewas
    really up to.
Someone can say dominee dominee you're an elder now - but that
really doesn't make you one.  Where ever Steve is I'm sure isagood
place and all - but someone labeling him elder doesn't make him one.
He was one already.  Who didn't carefully weigh his words evenwhile
in Cobu?  I don't know if it was cause he was in a wheel chairorwhat,
 but whenever he spoke we all listened  like it was EF Hutton.
    We bent our ears.   At least I know Idid.
  That's what makes him an elder; not a label.
That's a minor point but indicative of the whole shebang.

Colossians 1:23 in my Bible ends with
     "...the gospel which you have heard, which
     has been preached to every creature
     under heaven, and of which I, Paul,
     became a minister."
In Paul's mind - as he says here - the gospel had been preached
to every creature.  Pretty all encompassing.

One last point - in all of those "end times" prophecies - notice how
Traill kept us in Mt 24.  The version in Luke goes into "and when
you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..."
Harder to reconcile and deal with statements like that.
                All I can tell you is,
when you reform your view of prophecy, and allow a paradigm
shift to occur - which is already happening when you say "whoa"
- things actually start falling in place and making sense.  Nowonder
we called it pie in the sky.  I'm not sold hook, line, and sinker.  But
it does make more sense than anything Hal Lindsey or Harold Camping
came up with.  I just told one brother about this book I readandhe
is really interested.  I said this'll answer some of the stuffofwhy
Camping was so wrong in 1994 - (his wife hung on Camping's
every word and the brother had to hear "the latest" every day)
Well the brother told me, oh, she got really upset over that.
She won't listen to anyone on the radio  or watch anyone on TV
any more.  She says she knows what she believes and that's it.

   Where do we go from here?  Good question.
Like I always knew - one day I will die and see Jesus.
        That doesn't change.

  "Have you believed because you have seen me?
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

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Message: 18
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:15:07 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

I have a number of copies of "Notre Vrai Berger" and have the Resurrection
workbook...I'll get back to you on the Lamb Ledger, but I'm almostsureI
have that issue as well.  Thanks for the offer though...you maybeinterested
in knowing that I have the first three lamb lessons in French as wellasthe
lamb workbook in French and the "Deviens Sage Sois Sauve" button. (Iwas the
first English speaking person to "earn" the button in French). I alsohave
some tracts that we handed out (one side English, one side French)whenI had
been in Montreal (1976-1977)

Thanks for your offer...again, I'll let you know about that lamb ledger.

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Message: 19
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:19:52 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Cathy:  I have the Gospel of John in Colors, but not the Employment Status
card.
Mike went through the material that was sent to him by various brothersand
sisters.  After making copies of some of it, he sent it on tome.  I guess he
saw I had more motivation to go through and archive everything. The last
time I got anything from Mike was in May, 1999, so if you sent himanything
after May, 1999 I don't have it and will try to contact him--let meknow.  If
you could send me a copy of the Employment Status Card, I would appreciate it.

     I hope all is well with you.
Maureen

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Message: 20
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 02:18:40 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: john's father

Ellen,
I'll be praying.  Lori

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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 07:10:41 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 544

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  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:15:53 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: john's father

Sister Ellen,
Will pray as you requested sis.
God is able to do more than we ask or think.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 3
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:25:08 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: not semantics

Sister Ellen,
Regarding your comment about studying the ancient traditions and practices:
I remember reading (I think while I while still in Cobu) Zola Levitt's
description of a Jewish Passover. It blew me away! God gave the Jewssuchan
amazing picture of Christ thru the imagery of the Passover.
It does us very well indeed to study these things.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 4
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:27:56 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: new contact

Brother Mike,
Doesn't ring a bell bro.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 5
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:30:19 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Sister Maureen,
I have some colored workbooks, would you be interested in them?
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 6
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:31:35 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: not semantics

Sister Ellen,
Regarding your comment about studying the ancient traditions and practices:
I remember reading (I think while I while still in Cobu) Zola Levitt's
description of a Jewish Passover. It blew me away! God gave the Jewssuchan
amazing picture of Christ thru the imagery of the Passover.
It does us very well indeed to study these things.

Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 7
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:32:19 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: not semantics

Sister Ellen,
Regarding your comment about studying the ancient traditions and practices:
I remember reading (I think while I while still in Cobu) Zola Levitt's
description of a Jewish Passover. It blew me away! God gave the Jewssuchan
amazing picture of Christ thru the imagery of the Passover.
It does us very well indeed to study these things.
 

Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
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Message: 8
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:31:53 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Re: the "world"
 

Brother Tom,
Greetings in Christ : )
I am doing a little study on the term "elder" and thought you mightfindthis as interesting as I have:
This was from Easton's Bible Dictionary.

Elder: a name frequently used in the Old Testament as denoting a person clothed with authority, and entitled to respect and reverence ( Gen 50:7). It also denoted a political office ( Num 22:7). The "elders of Israel"held a rank among the people indicative of authority. Moses opened hiscommission to them ( Exd 3:16). They attended Moses on all important occasions.Seventy of them attended on him at the giving of the law ( Exd 24:1). Seventyalso were selected from the whole number to bear with Moses the burdenof thepeople ( Num 11:16,17). The "elder" is the keystone of the socialand politicalfabric wherever the patriarchal system exists. At the presentday this isthe case among the Arabs, where the sheik ( i.e., "the oldman") is thehighest authority in the tribe. The body of the "elders" ofIsrael werethe representatives of the people from the very first, andwere recognizedas such by Moses. All down through the history of the Jewswe find mentionmade of the elders as exercising authority among the people.They appearas governors ( Deu 31:28), as local magistrates ( 16:18), administeringjustice( 19:12). They were men of extensive influence ( 1Sa 30:26-31).In New Testamenttimes they also appear taking an active part in publicaffairs ( Mat 16:21;21:23; 26:59).

The Jewish eldership was transferred from the old dispensation to thenew. "The creation of the office of elder is nowhere recorded in the NewTestament, as in the case of deacons and apostles, because the latter officeswerecreated to meet new and special emergencies, while the former wastransmittedfrom the earlies times. In other words, the office of elderwas the onlypermanent essential office of the church under either dispensation."

The "elders" of the New Testament church were the "pastors" ( Eph 4:11), "bishops or overseers" ( Act 20:28), "leaders" and "rulers" ( Hbr 13:7;1Th 5:12) of the flock. Everywhere in the New Testament bishop and presbyterare titles given to one and the same officer of the Christian church. Hewhois called presbyter or elder on account of his age or gravity is alsocalledbishop or overseer with reference to the duty that lay upon him( Tts 1:5-7;Act 20:17-28; Phl 1:1)Ex

I looked up most of the references and they seem to be right on.

I also checked out Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words and found the following:

an adjective, the comparative degree of presbus, "an old man, an elder," is used (a) of age, whether of the "elder" of two persons, Luk 15:25, ormore, Jhn 8:9, "the eldest;" or of a person advanced in life, a senior,Act 2:17; in Hbr 11:2, the "elders" are the forefathers in Israel; so inMat 15:2;Mar 7:3,5; the feminine of the adjective is used of "elder" womenin thechurches, 1Ti 5:2, not in respect of position but in seniority ofage; (b)of rank or positions of responsibility, (1) among Gentiles, asin the Sept.of Gen 50:7; Num 22:7; (2) in the Jewish nation, firstly,those who werethe heads or leaders of the tribes and families, as of theseventy who assistedMoses, Num 11:16; Deu 27:1, and those assembled bySolomon; secondly, membersof the Sanhedrin, consisting of the chief priests,"elders" and scribes,learned in Jewish law, e.g., Mat 16:21; 26:47; thirdly,those who managedpublic affairs in the various cities, Luk 7:3; (3) inthe Christian churches,those who, being raised up and qualified by thework of the Holy Spirit,were appointed to have the spiritual care of,and to exercise oversightover, the churches. To these the term "bishops," episkopoi, or "overseers,"is applied (see Acts 20, ver. 17 with ver. 28, and Tts 1:5,7), the latterterm indicating the nature of their work, presbuteroi their maturity ofspirtual experience. The Divine arrangement seen throughout the NT wasfor a plurality of these to be appointed in each church, Act14:23; 20:17;Phl 1:1; 1Ti 5:17; Tts 1:5. The duty of "elders" is describedby the verbepiskopeo. They were appointed according as they had givenevidence of fulfillingthe Divine qualifications, Tts 1:6-9; cp. 1Ti 3:1-7;1Pe 5:2; (4) the twenty-four"elders" enthroned in heaven around the throneof God, Rev 4:4,10; 5:5-14;7:11,13; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4. The number twenty-fouris representative ofearthly conditions. The word "elder" is nowhere appliedto angels.

Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve

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Message: 10
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:22:32 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"
 

Will do.  I joined the list in May of 1999, so it was definitelyafter May
that I sent it.  Most of it was notebooks of big meetings, centermeetings
and NYC meetings, which I had transcribed from shorthand.

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Message: 11
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:37:14 -0500
  From: tony ledonne <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: new contact

Mike
I knew Chico very well, but haven't seen him in 15 years Steve Evansmight
know where he is.

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Message: 12
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:38:57 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: the emperor's old clothes

I appreciate your effort.  But defining what bishops and deaconsare -
it may as well be a Jewish custom that perfectly portrays Christ but
the persons participating haven't a clue.
So we, in our 20th Century matrix have been sold a bill of goods.
Many things we regard as orthodox didn't even exist one or two
hundred years ago.
The research you are doing is admirable but it will never get to
the bottom of what a couple things I have read.  Most of the
commentaries aren't even soft boiled eggs, much less hard boiled,
and putting an "X" on them just won't do it.
I have literally started writing a book called "Matrix and Mindests
- The Emperor's Old Clothes."  I have been writing about my
experience of being born anew, establishing a relationship with
Jesus, and then discovering I was in fact following Moses -
even after Stewart "discovered" grace.
So far, I have tried to keep to my own stories and not get into
"details" - for after reading Rethinking Elders - there's no
turning back - and most of the ground work is laid out therein.
A good introduction to this way of thinking is the book
"Rethinking the Wineskin" by Frank Viola (not to be confused with
the guy who used to Pitch for the Mets)
This fellow gets into the greek and really makes some sense -
and dons a new pair of glasses.  It's Gene Edwards without the
edge.  He even quotes from the King Jimmy.  Mr. Viola hashis
own experiences with "church life" that he draws from.  I don't
even know if he and Gene ever spoke.
I started on "this road" around 1991 when I heard a tape set
"Christian practices aren't" - and there was no turning back from
that.  The strange thing is, in ways Cobu followed the model
of Christianity back then.  At least the camaraderie were there.
Yes we were arrogant.  But not all the time.  The whole head
was sick - but we had our moments and situations.
And we elected King Saul and suffered the inevitable fate.
You see how easy it is to communicate using these terms and
references - matrix, if you will - and you can readily understand
them.
Take any other Christian on the planet and all they could do is
guess at best what exactly I'm getting at - but I have full confidence
that the one I am communicating with now, if not fully, at least
mostly understands what I'm saying.
And so it is with the scriptures.  They were speaking in their
matrix - and I sound now like I'm just beating a drum over and
over.
...the Hebrew scriptures with only the consonants
they had the oral tradition passed down along with that.  So
that reading from the scriptures would be sort of like following
the teleprompter today.
Suffice it to say that most of what is available for us to read is
in the mindset of  the old wineskin.
Frank Viola's Present Testimony Ministry is accessible at
http://www.home-church.org/present/
and you can supposedly order his book there if you like.

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Message: 13
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:24:37 -0800
  From: "shenri" <shenri@sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

I was in the Montreal group in 78-79 so I probably missed you by a few months,I would not be interested in more materials from back then.I didnot know they translated the lamb books in French,they gave me one in English.maybe you would know,what was the name of the leader in 78,I know they were acouple,real nice people,I think his name was John,he had a mini afro hairand she hadglasses holed together with scotch tape,and I like to knowwhat happenedto them,thanks,bye.Sylvain.
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Message: 14
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:01:27 -0500
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Hello Maureen,

How about an OR (Official Reprover) button from big meetings? I keep
one around for when I want to ream someone out. Of course I can't seem
to find things around here when I'm actually looking for them.

What about a scrapbook of postcards from the edge (I mean from Gayle
T.)? Some of mine say some choice things ("Obviously Rick doesn't makelife
interesting for you!") Or would they be too personal?

Just some suggestions for Maureen's Museum of Cult Memorabilia.

#1 space cadet,
Mary R.

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Message: 16
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:10:18 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Mary:  I would welcome anything you could contribute.  Sofar only my
"postcards from the edge" (lol...that's a good one) have made it amongthe
memorabilia so it would be good to see that I was not the only onetoget
them.  I totally forgot about the OR button.  If you wouldbewilling to part
with that too, I would really appreciate it.  As I said before,somany of us
worked long and hard there.  I don't have much else to show forthattime
except all the material I accumulated and now what I have gotten fromothers.
I feel that by saving it and organizing it as I am it can be a sortof
memorial or whatever the right word is for us "veterans."  I thinkImake my
husband laugh, but I tell him if something happens to me I want tomakesure
my books (I have an extensive collection on cults [a few date backtothe
1800's], abusive religions as well as books written in the '50's and60'son
techniques used by the Chinese to coerce people) and the stuff fromCOBUgets
preserved and becomes part of some library where they could be puttogood
use.
     I was looking over some of my old notes...Sooften Stewart would be
telling us how awful we were and I would write in the margins thatIneeded
to repent because of the sin in my life.  If the handwriting wasn'tmine, I'd
think someone else wrote that stuff.
     Anyway, here's my address...and manythanksagain!

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Message: 17
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:22:26 -0500
  From: "Eric Fetterolf" <fetterof@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Handwriting on the wall.

Hi Maureen:
I have a bunch of stuff-boxes and binders and buttons and I believeavintage "Egg Tract"
I used to cut the egg tracts up to be passed out at the Viewmont MallinScranton, Pa.
I look at some of my handwriting from back then and I think-"a crazyperson wrote this!"
Then I realized it was Stew'S words.

I also would like to see a Museum of Cults, Sects, Etc- one on the East Coast and
one on the West Coast.

Anyone ever hear/remember Eric Pement of the Jesus People of Chicago,Ill.?
Anyone know whereabouts of Bill Alnor, Christian author (he did ParadeSection cover
story) in Philadelphia Inquirer about Lamb House in Philly.

How about Bill Lauzus?

David and Karen Poli- please e-mail me.

checkout ericfetterolf.com
Comments please.

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Message: 18
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 05:48:16 -0000
  From: kb8kfm@earthlink.net
Subject: Biblical Blasphemy

It's funny how this post ended that thread isn't it? Fact is
this one post that I found somewhere on the net following a searchof
Thomas Paine has done more damage to my own belief by adding more
unbelief and doubt all by itself. I looked in the Word and sure enuff
it is there bigger than life. Now I surly can recite Lord help my
unbelief.

brother ray
 
 

>       Biblical Blasphemy
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
> [THIS ESSAY WAS PUBLISHED AS ONE OF THE "PROSPECT PAPERS" WHICH
PAINE CONTRIBUTED TO ELIHU PALMER'S JOURNAL THE PROSPECT, OR VIEW OF
THE MORAL WORLD IN 1804]
>
>
>
> The Church tells us that the books of the Old and New Testament are
divine  revelation, and without this revelation we could not havetrue
ideas of God.
>
> The Deist, on the contrary, says that those books are not divine
revelation;  and that were it not for the light of reason andthe religion of
Deism,  those books, instead of teaching us true ideas of God,would teach
us notonly false but blasphemous ideas of Him.
>
> Deism teaches us that God is a God of truth and justice. Does the
Bible  teach the same doctrine? It does not.
>
> The Bible says (Jeremiah xx, 7) that God is a deceiver. "O Lord
(says  Jeremiah) thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Thouart
stronger than  I, and hast prevailed."
>  Jeremiah not only upbraids God with deceiving him, but, iniv, 10,
heupbraids God with deceiving the people of Jerusalem. "Ah! Lord God
(says  he), surely thou hast greatly deceived this people andJerusalem,
saying, yeshall have peace, whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul."
>
> In xv, 18, the Bible becomes more impudent, and calls God in plain
language,  a liar. "Wilt thou (says Jeremiah to God) be altogetherunto me as
a liar  and as waters that fail?"
>
> Ezekiel xiv, 9, makes God to say - "If the prophet be deceived when
he hath  spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."All thisis
> downright blasphemy.
>
> The prophet Micaiah, as he is called, II Chron. xviii, 18-21, tells
another  blasphemous story of God. "I saw," says he, "the Lordsitting on
His throne,  and all the hosts of Heaven standing on His righthand and on His
left. And  the Lord said, who shall entice Ahab, King of Israel,to go up and
fall at  Ramoth Gilead? And one spoke after this manner, and another after
that  manner.
>
> "Then there came out a spirit [Micaiah does not tell us where he
came from]  and stood before the Lord [what an impudent fellowthis spirit was]
and  said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, wherewith? And
he said,
> I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his
prophets. And  the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thoushalt also prevail;
go out,  and do even so."
>
> We often hear of a gang of thieves plotting to rob and murder a
man, and  laying a plan to entice him out that they may executetheir design,
and we  always feel shocked at the wickedness of such wretches;but what
must we  think of a book that describes the Almighty acting inthe same
manner, andlaying plans in heaven to entrap and ruin mankind? Our ideasof His
justice  and goodness forbid us to believe such stories, and therefore we
say that a  lying spirit has been in the mouth of the writersof the books of
the Bible.
>
> -Thomas Paine
>
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++
>  R a y n a r d   M e r r i t t
>       n8vzl@q...
> ++++++++++++++++++++
 
 

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Message: 19
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 06:37:41 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: Handwriting on the wall.

Alnor did "The Christian Sentinel" on and off in recent years.
He had a "Bible Study" at Calvary Chapel in northeast Philly
in the early nineties that he called "Mars Hill"
Alnor always struck me as a bit strange.  I know you teamed
up with him way back when and all - but I always wondered
what's his motivation?
You can understand us and Maureen - we're personally involved
and understand this stuff inside out.
What was Alnor really up to?
He was even on the TV news a couple years ago with Jim Griffiths
when there was some cult stuff going on.  I forget what it was...
This is fresh in my mind because I just related one of my experiences
in one of Alnor's Mars Hill sessions.
They were talking against all kinds of things (which I think is
immediately
suspect) and they were on their anti Catholic stuff.
His wife was raised Catholic and was doing the speaking.
She's definitely his better half.
She should be in charge of keeping it real.
Alnor lives in Philly in the 19124 zip code.
He sent me Cliff Gayle's manuscript - albeit it took a year copiedon
theback of his correspondance.........

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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 04:27:49 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 545

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Message: 1
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:23:37 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Handwriting on the wall.

dear eric:

karen and dave don't have e-mail at home. Dave has it at work
though----Popcarpet@aol.com.

love,  ellen

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Message: 2
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:35:01 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Biblical Blasphemy

dear raynard:

do not despair, my dear brother.  only look a little harder.  i am sure
mr. paine did not sweat much to find his incontrovertible proof ofthe
injustice of our God.  you can depend upon it that he never didmorethan
scratch the surface, never asked the Holy Spirit to help his mind
understand what he found.  his life bears that out.  butyou can look.
each one of those statements has a story to tell.  for some ofthem,they
are the mindset of those who wrote them and not true statements ofthe
character of the Lord--rahter they are brought forth our of the
impassioned fervor of the man's heart.--jeremiah.  God neverwillingly
deceives us.  we choose the path we take.  I have sometimeswondered
about my heart---you know, desperately corrupt, etc, etc and all the
judgments i have made.  oh, but for the grace of God... Jesus faithfully
pursues but He does not compel those who would turn from Him and follow
the leading of their own sinful hearts even when they think it's his
leading.  then He just waits for me to return again.  atleast that has
been my experience.  anyway i'm getting way far away from my purpose in
writing here.  every one of the verses in this little essay areonesthat
need to be dug into.  a look at the hebrew verb used over Pharoahwill
show you that the choice was Pharoah's.  God Himself tempts noone with
evil.  In jeremiah, God showed Himself to not at all be a waterthat
failed or a deceitful stream.  it's in man's understanding thatthe fault
lies--not in God's.  joe says in college that there is a termfor those
verses but i can't remember what it is.  they remind me of the
perfunctory outbursts of David that you find in the Psalms.  search
harder, dear raynard.  God is ALWAYS FAITHFUL, NEVER DECEITFULWITH THOSE
WHO LOVE HIM, AND HE LOVES YOU.      YOUR SISTER, ellen

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Message: 3
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:46:11 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: the "world"

>  Brother Tom,Greetings in Christ : )Iam doing a little studyon the
> term "elder" and thought you might find this as interesting as I
> have:This was from Easton's Bible Dictionary.

I was reconsidering - - perhaps sending you the website where
you might be able to get that book may not be the best thing.
I really don't have to "prove" my point as I already have my
proof.  But what I've been reconsidering also is telling other
 people.  I sort of become more like a bull in a china shop.
  My "insight" is appreciated like that of the psychologist at
dinner, who, when he's asked for the salt "sees" something and
     must tell everyone there:
"You say 'pass the salt.'  What I'm hearing is 'I need love...'"
Well,  genius, # 1.  We don't need your "insight"
 and # 2.  You're totally off the wall.
     JUST PASS THE SALT, NIMROD.

 What I've also considered is "sound bites" just don't get it
done.  And that is why I suggested the book - which is introductory
  in style and a good starting point to get a point of reference.
The book paints a picture that's easy to see.  It plainly, clearly
and straightforwardly makes sense.
    But
reading this book I suggested would be letting the genie out of
the bottle.  There's no going back.  Once you open this doorit
 can't be closed.  It's like finding out Rock Hudson is gay.
(ruined Macmillan and wife for me; well, not totally...)  It'slike
finding out there's no santa.  It's like thinking for the longest
time Stewart's a great father figure and the best shepherd you
could ever have been blessed with - to the eye opening realization
       you were duped by an abusive tyrant.
Like getting out of your once beloved Cobu and now, Jesus has
healed and changed your mind so that you look back and it's odious.
 In other words - where you are now - you may not be later.
    And you may not want to do that.

I myself, have always been restless about the formality of "church
services" and stuff like that.  Cobu seemed like a viable answer-
 and it was for a while.  I think, and others have said thesame
thing - who else could have gotten a hold of them?  And the road
we were on - we probably wouldn't have live through our 30's.
When I went back for my last stint in 1989 - my first roommate in
Brooklyn was a newly saved brother about my age.  He was approached
 by someone in Philly as he was on his way to the bridge to jump
off and commit suicide.  Those things happened fairly often ifyou'll
recall.  Or often enough to think God was working through us to
  save lives.
The dilemma or debate within me - is do I share this stuff?
        (I'm stuck on a mantra ofmatrix)
I mean - it has to do with this forum.  It's so easy to sit andtype
at one's leisure.  And we have shared all kinds of things. I suppose
    I do get a bit reactionary.  But it's causeI care.
            (is that a good enough excuse?)
I don't do this stuff on the street.  If I meet a brother - that's
all well and good.  If he's a deacon or an elder, well God bless'im.
  I've been in a few of my brother's Kingdom Halls. (JW's)
I don't have to tell them where they're wrong and here's what's right.
The last time I was there was for my brother's wedding.  Theycare
about God - but it's sad I know the pressure they're under.  Iguess
they're glad to be saved though. I mean - they're probably glad that
they "found God."  Funny to hear that?  What do you thinkthey think?
  And they think I'm the one in the dark.
     And so it goes.
(One time I did "debate" with the JW's - when I had left Cobu for
good in 1990 - the first place I lived was at my brother's.  Iwent
 to a Bible study night - and I debated them with fury - withthe
good old Cobu techniques.  I probably had all my Stewart voice
inflections honed.  They were frustrated and one brother complimented
 me as he looked at me in amazement and said, "I've never talkedto
   anyone like you before!")

Since I have read things that have really meant something to me -
I willingly pass them along.  But it may not be the best thing.

I also realize not everyone can drop what they're doing and read my
"stuff."  I myself know this one well - because I find it hardto keep
up with the list quite often - and I have been sent tapes and letters
 - they don't always get looked at right away.

  If people are happy where they are, then that's great.
People are busy with their own lives and that's well and good.
       We're told to "occupy until Icome."
  But I did think you would like to be aware of this stuff.
I'll tell you, I'm shocked by the other recent "discovery" -
  This preterism (I don't like that word -
I don't know exactly why) has been around for a while.  And hereI
thought I had just about everything checked out.  That was a BIG
door for me.  Never saw it coming - and it's been around for years.
Did you see that list of books Mark posted?  I just glanced atit
and was a bit overwhelmed.  I would rather be taken by the hand.
That's why I liked the Noe book.  He took me from here to there.
Talking sound bites and hit and miss - well, you just can't get there
from here....
  An introduction is what's needed. That's what Viola is too.
So they're great for what they offer - but you may not be in the market.

( Kind of a strange phrase there...)

            One last thing:
(and what made me think of this was a blackout in a section of
Philly last night.  Us city folk don't know darkness.  Lastnight
I was caught in it.  I almost walked into somebody as I didn'tsee
them.  Funny thing, too - I had just made a chance stop at myhouse
and donned my mini mag light - putting the holder onto my belt. I used
to wear it all the time - but now that I work day shift in a room with
computers - I have no need for it...)
    the story:
A man was visiting a friend (this was a long time ago - in some
Oriental place).  It was time for the friend to go home. He was
 blind, and he was used to finding his way - nighttime
    was of no consequence to him.
But the host insisted he carry a candle - (they made a papyrus
lantern that people could carry a candle with them and therefore
   have light to see where they are going).
"But I am blind - the light is not needed by me!"
"But my brother - it is not for you - it is so others
     can see you coming."
And so the man was persuaded, took the papyrus lantern, and
 started home.
He was going along fine, trusting others could see his lantern
and wouldn't bump into him in the dark, when suddenly, bam!
Getting up and gathering himself he said to the other traveler
      "You base fellow!  What is thematterwith you?!
What are you doing, bumping into me; can't you see my candle?"
"But my dear old man," the traveler said,
 "Your candle had gone out."

              moral of the story:
It is better to walk in your own darkness
        than in someone else'slight.

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Message: 4
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:42:42 -0500
  From: "Mark Loftus" <mloftus955@hotmail.com>
Subject: resurrection - final answer

HERM  -  (08 Nov 2000, 1121)  Hi Mark, Let me make this clear to you & all.
The verses I post are there for anyone to check out to see if whatI saidis
sound. I have repeatedly asked everyone to check every teaching carefully to
see if these things are so. The reason I do this is because the Wordtells
us that this is the best course to take according to ACTS 17:10-11.it also
is humanly very reasonable to check out a teaching or any proposalcarefully
before committing to it. Any commentator I know of when citing hiscommends
on a teaching of the scriptures uses the addresses of the scriptures.It is
implied that a person reading these addresses should look them up.Very few
commentators write out every address they quote. You say that whatI'm doing
is wrong. my comments are proxy (the authority to act for another)for the
actual words of scripture.  Proxy is the wrong word to use inmy case. I
have never claimed infallibility for any of my comments. As you yourself
stated, (unless one is diligent to check his strings of referencesby paging
through one?s Bible while reading a given post). My hope is that theywould
indeed do that.

As for Mark's assertion that the passage in 1 COR 15:51-54 Is not speaking
directly of physical death.
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: forthe
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, andwe
shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortalmust put
on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and thismortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the sayingthat
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What does "corruptible" mean & refer to in Vs 53 & 54. Whatdoes "the dead"
mean & refer to in Vs 52? It is obvious that these words are referring to,
namely the physical body. The corruptible physical body is what's goingto
be changed. the spirits of the dead in Christ (which are made aliveat the
new birth, EPN 2:1) are already with the Lord. Because "To be absentfrom
the body is to be present with the Lord," for the believer. see 2 COR5:1-9
for the same theme.
Vs 4, For indeed while we are in this tent (earthly tent in vs 1),we groan,
being burdened because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in
order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.  Herm
 

MARK  responds -  (16 Jan 2000)
Dear Herm; I did not say that what you?re doing is wrong, but simplythat
your style of presentation is potentially misleading when you tellus in
your own words what scripture references you are listing (but not actually
quoting) say.
   This is the second of two recent posts in whichyou addressyourself to 2nd
Corinthians 5:8.  You utilize quotation marks as follows: ?Tobe absent from
the body is to be present with the Lord?.  (You use the same wording twice
in an earlier post).  In this form, however, this is not actuallya
scripture quotation, but rather it is an expression commonly used among
Christians which is derived from the words of Paul:  We are confident, yes,
well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present withthe
Lord?.  It is clear from his language that Paul is saying thisby way of
contrast to something else, the statement two verses earlier, So weare
always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body weare
absent from the Lord!.  As per your recommendation, I have lookedat2nd
Corinthians 5:1-9 as a whole and in conjunction with 1st Corinthians
15:51-54.  One theme that I notice is that two things are being
contrasted, and in 2nd Corinthians 5:1-9 this is so from the very beginning
of the passage, where our earthly house, this tent is set againstour
habitation which is from heaven?.  Your interpretation requiresthatwe
understand Paul's expression, to be absent from the body and to bepresent
with the Lord. as referring to a third and intermediate condition. But I
see no evidence in this context that he is referring to any more thantwo
states of being, the same two that he contrasts in 1st Corinthians15.
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Message: 5
  Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:26:22 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: humor
 

From:  Owen
       Dear
 
When the office printer's type began to grow faint, the
office manager called a local repair shop where a friendly
man informed him that the printer probably needed only to
be cleaned. Because the store charged $50 for such cleanings,
he said, the manager might try reading the printer's manual
and doing the job himself.

Pleasantly surprised by his candor, the office manager asked,
"Does your boss know that you discourage business?"

"Actually it's my boss's idea," the employee replied. "We
usually make more money on repairs if we let people try to
fix things themselves first."

Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 6
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:48:21 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Handwriting on the wall.

Eric:  I would welcome anything you could send.  I have finished the process
of retaping deteriorating tapes as well as putting each document inan
archival safe plastic holder (the kind that can go in notebooks) sothat the
paper would not deteriorate any further (as you can imagine, some ofthis
stuff is showing its age).  At my job we got sent about 20 3"notebooks for a
study we never did.  I was able to bring about 15 home. By this weekend, I
hope to have everything in notebooks.  When I said that I wantthis to be a
sort of memorial to all of us...something that hopefully will an appropriate
home after I am gone...I'm quite serious.
      Please send me anything you can. I've written my name and address on
here a couple of times, but here it is again:

      Eric Pement is no longer with JPUSA--heleft 2-3 years ago.  Ron
Enroth wrote Recovering from Churches that Abuse.  Apparentlymany former
members of JPUSA came forward and spoke of some abuses by that group.  Even
Ron Enroth would not put JPUSA at the same level of COBU, but he feltthat
there was a wide enough range of people contacting him to include themin
this book.  As you might imagine, this stirred up quite a controversy within
the Christian counter-cult world.  JPUSA has long been known tobe a
whistle-blower about cults and now the tables have turned. Unfortunatelythis
has caused a split among very caring people but who have strong butopposing
views on cult involvement vis a vis salvation.  Eric struggledwith leaving
for probably a few years before he actually did.  One big hurtle,and I know
we can relate to this, was how he was going to be able to do some ofthe
simple things that most people take for granted.   If youwant to get in
touch with Eric I might be able to get an email on him...let me know.
      I had talked to Bill Alnor about 7 yearsago.  I had just left a
fringe church and had a lot to be confused about.  While I thoughthe was a
nice person, he was not someone with whom I felt very comfortable talking to
about cult related issues.  He belongs to EMNR (Evangelical Ministries to New
Religions).  While they may be appropriate in reaching JehovahWitnesses and
Mormons, they don't know what to do with people like us....ones whotruly
accepted Jesus but who also were in a high demand/control groups. The first
meeting I ever went to even remotely related to cults was the EMNRmeeting in
fall, 1994.  I unfortunately felt very out of place and a rarityof sort to
even be an ex-member of a bible-based group at a conference like that.  A lot
of people in that camp would like things to be black and white (e.g.if
you're in a cult you can't be saved) so they feel uncomfortable withthose of
us who don't fit their view.
     Thanks again.

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Message: 7
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:13:37 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: WOW

Stephanie Sydney just wrote me on line,  Marva McKeython wrotemeon line,
Kevin from New Brunswick wrote,  Darlene Bruce just dumped 5 notebooks and a
pack of pixs in the mail to me. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!!!!!! PraiseGod and
wow and great.

I might get a job teaching High School English. Pray for me. I'm inDigest
mode so It will be a while before I get back to ya.

Mike

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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 06:08:15 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 547

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Message: 1
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:49:04 -0500
  From: "Mark Loftus" <mloftus955@hotmail.com>
Subject: resurrection in the old testament part III - Pharisee andSadducee

The following material is the belated final installment of a three-part
response to a post put up back in August by Darlene.  Part 2 included the
beginning of a hypothetical dialogue between a Pharisee and a Sadducee.
Most of what follows is the conclusion of that dialogue contributedby
Robert Machell.  The first two parts of this series are includedas an
attachment for those like me with a short memory. Mark
 

PHARISEE:    I will acknowledge, Rabbi, that you havearguedpersuasively that
Moses is preeminent among all of the prophets that God has raised upin the
history of our nation, and that his words are of primary importance...asif
I did not already believe this!  But you have failed to convinceme,sir,
that Isaiah was a false prophet!  Or Daniel, or Ezekiel, or Hosea!  No, but
if I take what you have said and boil it down, you have ADMITTED thatthe
Torah points beyond itself!  I do not agree with the arbitrarylimitations
you have set in this regard, placing conditions on what God may do.I do not
accept what you say, that the Torah must "directly specify" any andall
areas of divine revelation.  Moreover, if this is what you sincerely
believe, then you still have a problem with the temple; for the scriptures
you have cited from the book of Moses say only that the LOCATION ofGod's
dwelling place would later be revealed, not that the tabernacle itself
should be REPLACED!  So you will excuse my candor, if I feel thatI must
speak my mind; but I am ready to conclude that you are nothing morethan an
artful dodger, and that your polished speeches are the means by whichyou
are avoiding a direct and simple answer concerning Isaiah!

SADDUCEE:    You want a direct and simple answer, doyou?  Then allow me to be
perfectly blunt!  You Pharisees with your cut-and-paste approachto the
scriptures don't know what you're talking about!!  You pervertthe
scriptures and you delude the children of Israel, for you imagine inyour
vain conceits to discover meanings in the words of the prophets thatare not
intended!  For the writings of the prophets must be interpretedin the light
of their immediate contexts, as well as in a manner consistent withthe
overall framework of the Word of the Lord, as scripture answers to
scripture.  It is the path of error to be selective, as you Pharisees are
wont to be!

In your misguided zeal for your pet doctrine, has it completely escaped your
notice that there is a device which is commonly used in the writingsof the
prophets that may be referred to as quasi-resurrection?  Rememberthat I
already said to you that a man lives on through his descendants, andhear
the sense of the scriptures as they are meant to be understood! Since you
persist for an answer concerning the prophet Isaiah, I will begin withhim;
for it is Isaiah who wrote the following words: "There shall come fortha
shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
(Is. 11:1)" This is clearly a reference to the Davidic line; and whenwe
look at the passage in which this is found, we can see that it refersto the
time when God was to check the Assyrian invasion and bring healingand
restoration to the remnant of his people, which took place in the daysof
King Hezekiah, fourteen generations after Jesse, the father of David.  This
scripture has much in common with the words of Job when he ponderedhis
mortality saying, "For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down,that it
will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.  Thoughits root grow
old in the earth, and its stump die in the ground, yet at the scentof water
it will bud and put forth branches like a young plant." The root ofJesse
had been in decline, and the tree of David's kingdom had been truncateddue
to sin; but renewed glory and prosperity came forth during the reignof
Hezekiah.

The prophet Micah likewise spoke of the future in terms of the pastwhen he
said, "But you, 0 Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among theclans
of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler inIsrael,
whose origin is from,of old, from ancient days." obviously, David wasthe
ruler in Israel who was born in Bethlehem and who put Bethlehem onthe map
more than a dozen generations before Micah uttered this saying as aword of
prophecy.  The irony Micah spoke of makes no sense, therefore,unless we see
that he meant to allude to David's kingdom as archetypal and thatthe
prophetic aspect of this scripture merely has to do with one of David's
descendants.  So just like Isaiah, Micah spoke of the house ofDavidbeing,
as it were, RESURRECTED!

But this would come as no surprise to you, my dear Pharisee, if youonly
knew the scriptures!  For there are many such examples, and evenmore
dramatic ones than these, in the writings of the prophets.  Hoseaspoke of
David by name AS THOUGH HE WERE TO LIVE AGAIN, saying, "For the childrenof
Israel shall dwell many days without king or prince, without sacrificeor
pillar, without ephod or teraphim.  Afterward the children ofIsraelshall
return and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and theyshall
come in fear to the Lord and to his goodness in the latter days. (Hos.
3:4,5)" Even later than the three prophets I have already quoted, Jeremiah
said: "'For it shall come to pass in that day', says the Lord of hosts,
'that I will break his yoke from your neck, and will burst your bonds;
foreigners shall no more enslave them.  But they shall serve theLord their
God, and David their king, whom I will raise up for them. (Jer. 30:8,9)1"
Likewise, through the prophet Ezekiel, it was proclaimed, "And I, theLord,
will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them;I, the
Lord, have spoken. (Ezek. 34:24)"

All of this is consistent, first of all, with the covenant God madewith our
father Abraham which shows that a man's posterity is his greatest reward.
So it is that a nation bears the name of its progenitor. or a tribe,or a
clan, or a family.  And yes, there is precedent in the Torah forthis device
I have traced in the Prophets!  When Moses knew that the timeof hisdeath
was near, he blessed the children of Israel, speaking of the tribesof
Israel as if he was speaking of the sons of Jacob themselves. Of Reuben,
the firstborn of Israel's sons, he said, "Let Reuben live, and notdie, nor
let his men be few. (Deut. 33:6)"

It is against the background of these overarching truths that we must
interpret that diminutive morsel of scripture you have set apart fromthe
book of Isaiah, and that you wish to hang your feckless invention upon.  For
the passage in question is a passage that speaks of the deliveranceof a
remnant of Israel from foreign oppression.  It uses images thatallude both
to the Passover in Egypt and also the Exodus, images frequently encountered
in Isaiah, especially in the first half of the book.  Isaiah hadprophesied
that Jerusalem would find itself a solitary bastion "like a booth ina
vineyard, like a lodge in a cucumber field (Is. 1:8)", that the armyof the
king of Assyria would be like the waters of a river flooding over itsbanks
and that would "sweep on into Judah, overflow and pass on, reachingeven to
the neck. (Is. 8:8)" Indeed, it is written that Sennacherib king ofAssyria,
in the fourteenth year of Hezekiah, came up against all the fortifiedcities
of Judah and took them (Is. 36:1; 2Kings 18:13), and then set siegeagainst
Jerusalem itself.  The possibility must have seemed very realindeedthat
Israel's posterity was doomed, that Judah as a nation would not survive.

What then was the miraculous deliverance wrought by God on behalf ofhis
chosen remnant but life from the dead?  Figuratively speaking,Israel DID
receive back his dead, and his body DID therefore arise on that day;as this
scripture which you have misapplied puts it from the perspective ofthe
patriarch: "Your dead shall live, with my dead body they shall arise."Itis
not some future resurrection that is being referred to in this scripture,
but the redemption of the memorial name of our forefather through the
preservation of his seed!  Remember that Jonah was similarly ASGOODAS DEAD
when he prayed to the Lord from the belly of the fish, and said, "Outof the
belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice... I went down to theland
whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you have brought up my lifefrom the
pit, 0 Lord, my God."

Is it hard for you to accept that this is what is meant in Isaiah?  Then I
should remind you of what was prophesied in a later generation, afterthe
holy city WAS in fact overwhelmed and despoiled by Nebuchadnezzar kingof
Babylon, and the corporate body of Israel had been destroyed from theearth
as a nation.  For Ezekiel was taken by the Spirit of the Lordto thevalley
of dry bones, and he was asked, "Can these bones live?" And to whomwas
Ezekiel told to prophesy, and who did he say would live again? It is
written, as you know, "These bones are the whole house of Israel. (Ezek.
37:11)" It was a symbolic resurrection, my friend, (-concerned withthe
restoration of our nation-- a prophecy that was fulfilled seventy years
following the exile according to the word of the Lord.

PHARISEE:    Enough!  Enough!  I am beginning to feel as if I am under siege
myself, and that YOU must be Sennacherib or Nebuchadnezzar, and thatyou
would batter the precious walls of Jerusalem to pieces if you could!!  I
will concede that you are better at word battles than I am, becauseyou are
able to pile up more scriptures in the cause of your doctrine. But I must
wonder how you could possibly enjoy your victory, if that's what youthink
it is, since your aim is to destroy my hope along with your own!

SADDUCEE:    The rancor of a sore loser does not become you, my dear son of
Abraham!  Remember, it was you who initiated this exchange! And if I am
better at word battles, as you say, it is because the truth is on myside!!
Believe me, that is something for which there is no substitute, nomatter
how proficient one might be at piling up scripture references. thescripture
references would not have been there in the first place, I might add,had
the truth been on the other side.

And you are wrong if you really believe that I am seeking to destroyyour
hope.  I have done nothing more than respond to your inquiriesregarding
your FALSE hope, which I would REPLACE with the truth if I were able.  I
would encourage you to be content with the Abrahamic covenant whichis your
birthright, and to give up your pie in the sky!  What is more,I feel that I
must admonish you to beware; for I perceive that you are on the vergeof
blasphemy, ready as you seem to be to revile the inheritance that hasbeen
determined for you by the Almighty, like an ungrateful and foolishchild!

PHARISEE:    Keep your condescending admonitions to yourself, you pompous
windbag!  I'm not buying your phony personal concern for a moment!  Try it
on somebody else!

SADDUCEE:    Yes, that's it!  Show your true colors!  This way we all can see
why it is that you Pharisees are the also-rans, and why we Sadduceeshave
been entrusted with the most exalted things of God-- why we Sadduceesare
the principal caretakers of the ageless Dwelling Place of God and ofthe
abiding rituals that belong to it here and now and for all time tocorn!
 
 

It is here that we must leave our champion, having leveled his opponent with
the pavement, but realizing not that he himself is hurtling towardthe edge
of a cliff.  The foregoing dialogue is a fictional account, ofcourse,
intended to be historically plausible.  The author has attemptedto portray
what a Pharisee and a Sadducee prior to 70 A.D. could potentially havesaid
to each other.  But a footnote is appropriate, since historical
documentation exists to authenticate one of the key exchanges betweenour
pious contenders; and it pertains, remarkably enough, to Isaiah 26:19.
It is recorded in the Talmud that Sadducees confronted Gamaliel, challenging
him for scriptural proof of the resurrection of the dead.  Asthe story
goes, he offered them citations "from the Pentateuch, the Prophets,and the
Hagiographa", four scriptures in all.  Two are from Deuteronomy,onefrom
the Song of Solomon, and "from the Prophets, for it is written, 'Thydead
shall live; my dead bodies shall arise.  Awake and sing, ye thatdwell in
the dust, for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall castforth
the dead."' The Sadducees are said to have replied, "Perhaps this passage
refers to the revival of the dead described in Ezekiel (chapter 37)."
It is interesting that in her original post, Darlene referred to Ezekiel37
in support of her cxxmients about Isaiah 26:19.  Ironically, thehistorical
evidence just cited suggests that the Sadducees made precisely theopposite
use of the same passage of scripture.  Not that the aforementionedincident
from the Talmud is concerned, as was Darlene, with questions aboutthe
physical bodies of the saints at the Resurrection; but the degree of
coincidence seems to justify presenting the material that I have. An
additional incentive is my desire to present certain things from theOld
Testament according to a first century Jewish perspective.  WeChristians
are so accustomed to working backward from the New Testament that wehavea
tendency to overlook a variety of things and to omit them from the
interpretive process, particularly things having to do with the contextsof
Old Testament prophecies.  A case in point is Darlene's remarksabout
Ezekiel 37:

"In Ezekiel chapter 37 the Lord God is prophesying to His people thatHe
will raise them from their graves.  'Behold, I will open yourgravesand
raise you from your graves, 0 my people; and I will bring you homeinto the
land of Israel.  And you shall know that I am the Lord, when Iopen your
graves, and raise you from your graves, 0 my people.' Ezek. 37:12&13.  Is
this not a foreshadowing of what is to occur for ALL who believe inthe Lord
God of Israel?  This foretelling was to encourage our heart andour faith
that He will raise us, His children, from our graves."

But it is possible to see how a Sadducee might have rebutted Darlene's
interpretation of Ezekiel 37.  I must imagine that he would havepointed to
the context, observing that the chapter as a whole, along with theentire
Book of Ezekiel as background, and even one of the two verses Darlenewas
quoting, establish the fact that the reanimation of Israel as a nationand
the restoration of that nation to its homeland are the basic conceptsin
view in these verses.  And to that extent he would not have beenwrong.

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Message: 2
  Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:22:12 -0500
  From: "Mark Loftus" <mloftus955@hotmail.com>
Subject: the "world"

LORI  wrote -
Whoa---I just went to look up something and was stopped dead in mytracksby
a verse in Matthew 10 where Jesus told His disciples that they wouldn'tget
through all the towns in Israel before the Son of Man comes. So nowI'm
confused.  I've read that verse many times, how many, but somehowwith the
mindset of "He hasn't come back," I thought He was talking to the generation
that saw the gospel preached around the world.  Did those apostlesactually
make it to all the towns of Israel?  I guess that might be mootsince, even
with my mindset, somebody must have.  Unless "towns of Israel"meansmore
than it seems.  Well, I'm confused.  What do others say aboutthat verse?
This is jumping ahead because I need to check out a lot of things,but just
where does this preterorist view leave Christians of this age? Whatare you
hoping for?  I think I'll post this to the list because I'd likeothers'
input as well.  Maybe I'm just so dull I'm missing something obvious?
                                Lori

MARK  -  Hi Lori; I appreciate your honesty here, and I seethat Tom has
given you an excellent answer.   As far as our hope, thatdoesn't change,
its our going to be with the Lord.  Soon, we shall all experienceour own
last days, the destruction of our temple, so that then we may experience
resurrection.     

No, I don't think you are dull any more than I was for years.  It's a
natural thing to read ourselves in to all the scriptures, and thusexpect
these things in our future.  Revelation was written to seven churches that
existed in the first century, Paul wrote to churches that no longerexist,
and to brothers that have long since gone on to be with the Lord. The New
Testament writings were written to first century christians and forus, like
we are reading someone else's mail.

I see your questions here as very natural questions, and I quote something I
wrote beforeWe're not reading about a drama that's over, which iswhere
preterism stops.  This can cause a feeling of anticlimax becausepreterism
just left hanging leaves christians hanging.  It's not like wemissed the
drama, which preterism makes you feel like.  There is within usa built in
expectation of something to look forward to.  The Word of Godis living and
active, filled with images of what will be played out in our christian
lives.  This is where my views differ from full preterism?.

The new creation within us is given us a natural sense of longing and
anticipation.  It is natural for us to feel "born out of time"at this
point.  Preterism is just a starting point, a doorway into something.  It is
our understanding of prophecy that changes, literalism falls by thewayside.
 The whole story is poised for re-application.

You can't say too much about an incomplete picture, or a movie you just saw
part of; but when it is finished then you can talk about it, and applyitto
our lives, having seen the whole movie.  It is the spiritual meaning, that
is to say, what the bible story represents figuratively for us thatis
important to our spiritual lives..

Mt.10:23 -  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:
for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities ofIsrael,
till the Son of man be come.
As far as the towns of Israel, the indication of Matthew 10 was thatthey
all wouldn't be reached though I couldn't verify that historically.  It's
verses like that which forced me to think and re-examine things. Jesus
began that chapter by sending the disciples two by two.

And there are other verses like that:
Mt.16:28 -  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,which shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mt.26:64 -  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: neverthelessI sayunto
you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right handof
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven
John 21:22 -  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry tillI come,
what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23: Then went this saying abroadamong
the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said notunto
him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, whatis
that to thee?
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Message: 3
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:30:33 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Sharpen.


>
>  By the way, in case anyone is interested, Rev. Evan Williamsdied
yesterday
>  at the age of 85. For those in the New Brunswick Fellowships,Rev
Williams
>  was the owner of the One Way Bible Bookstore that used to next door
>  the COBU Coffee house. An honest and loving person. He'll bemissed.


 

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Message: 4
  Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:22:53 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: Re: Net Zero

Thanks for this post, Diana. I am now using netzero regularly.

"But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do" (1
Peter 1:15).
Bob San Pascual

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Message: 5
  Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:17:34 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: Biblical Blasphemy

Beautifully said, Ellen.

"But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do" (1
Peter 1:15).
Bob San Pascual

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Message: 6
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:48:27 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: That was then, This is Now!

Congratulations, Carol.   In retrospect, being "not trusted" and knowing
your character, he was probably more worried you'd be blowing the whistle on
him some day.  Lori

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Message: 7
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:57:06 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: "Wanted"

Maureen,
I think at this point, after all our moves, the only thing I have leftfrom COBU is my little baby Z and memories.  Lori

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Message: 8
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:42:36 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: from Nancy C

Dear Brethren:
Although I don't write I do get to read the Sharpen List after thefact on
MM's site.  I am praying for the many issues and those who areill (or have
broken bones - hi Mary R., or Math traumas, LOL.)  I do miss you,(although
I confess to not reading each and every word of our brother Tom P.or Mark
L's lofty tomes).  I put my shields up just to approach the subjectmatter
of the Curved Sword. (Personally, I prefer a straight-blade any day).
Obtuse?  Now let's see, how black is that kettle again, and who'sdoing the
name calling?  I'm glad there are the healing words and quickeningmedicines

of Steve the Elder (congrats bro) and Herman the Wise, Owen the
Cautious(also known as the Star-gazer) and Bob SP the Contrite.  Love is the
only healing for us X-boos, or for any of us humans.  (Glad tosee Cathy B.
finding a place of fellowship too).  The Real Jesus, (of the Real
Christianity) is still Lord.  I celebrated my spiritual birthdaylast week
(Jan. 12, 1976 in the New Brunswick Fellowship).  I prayed forthosewho
were there for me then.  We've all come a long way on the Pathsincethen,
haven't we children?
The lady of the House of Coogan greets you.
Love Nancy C.

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Message: 9
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:57:00 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: the "world"

Tom,
I agree with almost everything you said here. I don't buy preterism,but the questions are there. When I read Mt 24, even considering this view,I still get the feeling it is for us.  I guess it just makes me sensethere is a lot more to search for. Just because I don't understand theunfolding of things, I still know who my Savior is and I know He bodilywas raised.  I think time is a different thing with God than withus (Before Abraham was, I am, for example).  As for the worth of a"label", it depends on who is bestowing it I think.  Steve knows hiscongregation and they knowhim, and we know him.  So, congratulations,Steve.  On the otherhand, we know now not to head to "Rev" JesseJackson for counseling or a bunchof others who've preceded him.  I guess it's always been like that though.  So, yes, it's all in themix and the mix is here till the end when the weeds get yanked.
If anyone can tell me what Christians have said about Mt.10, I'd appreciate it.  My amplified Bible had a notation about some scholars sayingthis was talking about Pentecost.   Lori

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Message: 10
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:28:58 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: PLEASE WELCOME

Please welcome  Lynda(Givens) Powers to the sharpen list.
Please welcome Marva McKeython to Sharpen.
Please welcome Kevin to Sharpen.
Please welcome Scott Neuman to Sharpen.
Please welcome CAthy Miller back to Sharpen.

Pictures on coming too!

MM

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Message: 11
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:46:35 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Jesse Jackson
 

From:  Owen
       Dear Folks
      These are the top ten things that JesseJackson wanted to say to reporters:
)Don't lose your head, cause you caught me in bed.
)Don't go hogwild, cause I have a love child
)It don't mean a thing that I had me a fling
)Don't get obsessed, about the girl I caressed
)Don't make yourself ill, cause I'm acting like Bill
)Don't get in a rage, cause she's way underage
)I won't talk to the press about my personal mess
)Don't make no strife, 'bout how I cheat on my wife
)Me and this miss, should've stopped at the kiss
)Don't get yourself sick, cause I knocked up* some chick

*slang for got her pregnant
 
 

A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net
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Message: 13
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:00:43 EST
  From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jesse Jackson

Was this under the humor category?  I think this flu has attacked my "funny
bone".
Cindy.

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Message: 14
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:17:44 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: from Nancy C

Hearty, long time no see (hear) greetings in Jesus, sister Nancy : )
Amen, Jesus is still Lord.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 15
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:37 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: That was then, This is Now!

Sister Carol,
A hearty WELL DONE!
Imagine how great it will be to hear our Lord say that to us one day: ).
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:59:15 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 548

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Message: 1
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:13:04 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Richard Stands

I leave stuff sometimes - cause even though I know I read it -
it really didn't sink in yet - maybe I should read it again later.
That's a really funny story there.  It sunk in this time.

> i remeber the palms up thing.  my kids try to get me mad wheni tell them
> to do something by using the nazi salute.  they think that because i am
> german this will really get under my skin and it did at first, butihave
> overcome and now i laugh at them and tell them i have attained onlyto my
> "evil mom lady" badge, but that i'm working on "wicked"  theyhave since
> given up the salute. whew!  am i glad, but don't tell
> them.          e

 
 
 
 

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Message: 2
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:32:05 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Biblical Blasphemy

Ray, I was wondering how on earth these shallow, "Fred-like,"
(Fred could do better, I hope) would cause any one to tilt any
which way.  That's what I thought initially.
We all have good days, sometimes great days, and sometimes
downright lousy days.  Like David said, "Till I went into the
sanctuary of God, then I perceived their end."
Not that you have to go to the sanctuary or something - but
on any other given day - go after these verses with a fresher
perspective and they're not so intimidating.  That being said,
perhaps some specifics would be nice, eh?  I'm not going to go
there.  But I will admit I have those days too where God seems
very far away and not in control, etc.
Remember that saying? - something like this - "my worst days as
a Christian are better than my best days when I was unsaved."
We're not ready for the cabbage stew.

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Message: 3
  Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:44:34 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: That was then, This is Now!

Congratulations, Carol!

"But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whosehope
is in his unfailing love" Ps. 33:17).
Bob San Pascual

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Message: 4
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:41:18 -0800
  From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Richard Stands

dear tom:

i read stuff and let it sit sometimes too.  some i never replyto--others
i get to.  no big deal.  what was funny that right afteri toldyou this,
andrew did it to me!!  kids are spiritually attuned I think to
everything---the good and the bad.  it was kind of funny though.  because
of talking to you, when i told him to clean his room NOW and not later,
and he did that, i burst out laughing and well, he went and cleanedhis
room.  hopefully that will be the end of that for awhile.  my kids are a
witty bunch.    love,   ellen

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Message: 5
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:03:11 -0500
  From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Re: Biblical Blasphemy
 

> Ray, I was wondering how on earth these shallow, "Fred-like,"
> (Fred could do better, I hope) would cause any one to tilt any
> which way.

Hmm not sure what you mean here bro. II Chronicles does indeed have
the appearance as if the Lord were having dealings with a lying spirit,
and my faith is not in question, but rahter the writer of the book
perhaps. I do not doubt God, but I do doubt that He would use a lying
spirit for whatever means.
 

> Remember that saying? - something like this - "my worst days as
> a Christian are better than my best days when I was unsaved."
> We're not ready for the cabbage stew.
>

Yes I agree to this and I am reminded of a verse of song...

Better is one day in your house
Than a thousand elsewhere

brother ray

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Message: 10
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:59:05 -0500
  From: "Bluebird" <popsbaby1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Gene Edward's Books

Hi,
   My time at the F.F./COBU (73-77) set me up to spend 13yearsin an
almost identical situation...the control and authority thing. I wasreading
John the Apostle sight and there was a recommendation to read GeneEdwards'
"Letters to a Devastated Christian." Just read the synopsis on-lineand
ordered two different titles also! Sounds like an answer to prayerfor me.
   Anyone on the list who was in Balto. in 73-77 that wouldlike to chat?

  Lynda Givens (nka Powers)
 
 
 
 

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Message: 12
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:25:51 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Biblical Blasphemy

> Hmm not sure what you mean here bro. II Chronicles does indeed have
> the appearance as if the Lord were having dealings with a lying spirit,
> and my faith is not in question, but rahter the writer of the book
> perhaps. I do not doubt God, but I do doubt that He would use a lying
> spirit for whatever means.

One thing that came to mind was God sending upon them a strong
delusion to make them believe what is false because they refused
to love the truth and so be saved.  Sort of a similar non conclusion
though.
I always thought it was unfair - should I or anyone be hard hearted
- why then does he find fault - "he who fashions the hearts of themall."
I think theses are things too high and wonderful for us.
Some things that some don't have the luxury to ruminate.
I don't get it either...

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Message: 13
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:27:51 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Richard Stands

Wow, that's even funnier.
Laughter can be a scary thing!

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Message: 14
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:29:28 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re:Please welcome....

You have bragging rights!  I just thought after a few other replies
I wasn't going to chime in, too - but I guess I should have.
Congratulations.  Good work.

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Message: 15
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:36:11 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

> I'm glad he is at least supporting the child and the mother of the
> child. That is more than many men in hiscircumstances would do.

To the tune of that much a month?  For a man "without" a job?
But this is where our Christianity can be tested.  In that -
do we forgive?  Cause he has apologized - I've only heard what
others have said - but it is pretty much incumbant upon us to love
Jesse.
One lady said that she respects Jesse because back in the 1960's
they weren't just "walking in a march," - you were risking your
life.  And Jesse did that.

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Message: 16
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:43:53 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Gene Edward's Books

I was in Philly '76 and then the MTC.  My final Cobu stint wasin
1989 also in New York.  A little in Philly.
Wait'll you read the Silas, Timothy, and Titus Diaries.
Don't get me started!
I just saw Gene in person last year.  He's tall.  And thevideo's
I've seen can't catch all the kindness.
There was a reunion of ex-Cobu member in Balt in 1995 if
my memory serves me - I attended.  After the park we went to
Rudy's beautiful house.  They're in Pennsylvania now last I
heard.

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Message: 17
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 04:05:11 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: PLEASE WELCOME

Welcome!  I'm not sure I knew any of you.  (well, Cathy, ofcourse) I think
I know who Marva is though.  What is Kevin's last name? I was Lori Briggs
way back when.  I lived in NYC (Brooklyn, Bronx and Manhattan)from summer
77 to September 78 with a short stint in Boston around January 78,but I met
the group earlier, in fall of 76.  I went on some of those vancaravans out
to Detroit--actually enjoyed those.  Tony and I will have beenmarried 22
years in about a week.  We have five children:  Marie 21,Gabe 19, Janelle
16, Justine 11, and Aubrey Lynn 8.

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Message: 18
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 04:09:26 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: from Nancy C

Hi, Nancy.  Good to hear from you.  Ready to return yet?  All is quiet on
the western front.     Lori

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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:34:52 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 549

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Message: 1
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:03:38 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: PLEASE WELCOME

Welcome to the list, everyone. Look forward to hearing from all of you.
May you be encouraged in the Lord by the other members of this list.

"But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whosehope
is in his unfailing love" Ps. 33:17).
Bob San Pascual

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Message: 2
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:11:01 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: from Nancy C

Good to hear from you again, Nancy. I've been especially busy lately
because I've been in Hebrew class every weeknight for the last coupleof
weeks and it's been very difficult for me. Language studies are notmy
thing. If you get a chance, please pray that I'm able to adequately
translate Hebrew and Greek.

"But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whosehope
is in his unfailing love" Ps. 33:17).
Bob San Pascual
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Message: 3
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:41:52 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: the "world"
 

Sister Lori,
Regarding your following comments and questions:"Whoa---I just wentto look
up something and was stopped dead in my tracks by a verse in Matthew10
where Jesus told His disciples that they wouldn't get
> through all the towns in Israel before the Son of Man comes. So now I'm
> confused.  I've read that verse many times, how many, but somehow with the
> mindset of "He hasn't come back," I thought He was talking to the
generation  that saw the gospel preached around the world.  Did those apostles
actually  make it to all the towns of Israel?  I guess that might be mootsince,
even  with my mindset, somebody must have.  Unless "towns of Israel" means more
> than it seems.  Well, I'm confused.  What do others sayabout that verse?"

I have looked at Matthew 10:23 and submit the following which I believe
addresses what Jesus was referring to. This chapter records Jesus sending
out the 12 and warning them that they would face many persecutionsas they
did as He commanded them. I believe he was simply saying that this
persecution would prevent them from going to all the cities in Israelbefore
He returned a 2nd time.
Also, the part of verse 23 that says "before the Son of Man comes"may also
be referring to the upcoming transfiguration event. I submit the following
verses to prove this belief I have come to hold.
 

Matthew 10  (NKJV)
23When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly,I
say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel beforethe
Son of Man comes

Matthew 16:27-28

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels,
and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not tastedeath
before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

I think Jesus is speaking of two separate events in verse 27 and 28of
Matt.16. Verse 27 is speaking of His 2nd coming, and verse 28 is referring
to the "vision" transfiguration event that is about to occur 8 daysfrom the
time He spoke these words to the disciples, the 12, that He was sendingout.
Remember that Peter, James and John were among those 12 and it seemsvery
clear that they are the "some standing here" He was referring to.

Matthew 17

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brotherof
James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun,and
his clothes became as white as the light.
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking withJesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If youwish, I
will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one forElijah."
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and avoice
from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well
pleased. Listen to him!"
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground,
terrified.
7 But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid."
8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don'ttell
anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised fromthe
dead."

Mark 9
 

Jesus Transfigured on the Mount
 

The Transfiguration of Christ
* 1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some
standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom ofGod
present with power."
2Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led themup ona
high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.3His
clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer
on earth can whiten them. 4And Elijah appeared to them with Moses,and they
were talking with Jesus. 5Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi,it
is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one forYou,
one for Moses, and one for Elijah"-- 6because he did not know whatto say,
for they were greatly afraid.
7And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of thecloud,
saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" 8Suddenly, when they hadlooked
around, they saw no one anymore, but only Jesus with themselves.
9Now as they came down from the mountain, He commanded them that theyshould
tell no one the things they had seen, till the Son of Man had risenfrom the
dead. 10So they kept this word to themselves, questioning what therising
from the dead meant.
11And they asked Him, saying, "Why do the scribes say that Elijah mustcome
first?"
12Then He answered and told them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and
restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man,that
He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13But I sayto you
that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished,as it
is written of him."

Luke 9
 

Jesus Transfigured on the Mount
27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall nottaste
death till they see the kingdom of God."
28Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that Hetook
Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29As Heprayed,
the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and
glistening. 30And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and
Elijah, 31who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He wasabout
to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32But Peter and those with him were heavywith
sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the twomen
who stood with Him. 33Then it happened, as they were parting from Him,that
Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; and letus make
three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah"--not
knowing what he said.
34While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; andthey
were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35And a voice came out of thecloud,
saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" 36When the voice had ceased,
Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in thosedays
any of the things they had seen.

I believe the following verses in 2 Peter 1 confirms all of this. Peter says
"we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"-heis
not referring to the 2nd coming. He said 'we were eyewitnesses of His
Majesty". Again, Peter is talking about this incredible sight he sawwith
James and John on the mountain when Jesus, Moses and Elijah appearedwith
Him. Read the 3 different descriptions:
His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as thelight

His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no
launderer on earth can whiten them.

the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and
glistening
What else could this be but a glimpse of the Glorious Christ as Hewould
appear when He returns a 2nd time?

2 Peter 1

The Trustworthy Prophetic Word
* 16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made knownto
you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnessesof
His majesty. 17For He received from God the Father honor and glorywhen such
a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son,in
whom I am well pleased." 18And we heard this voice which came fromheaven
when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well toheed as
a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning
star rises in your hearts; 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of
Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21for prophecy never cameby the
will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy
Spirit.
I hope this helps clarify some of these things.
Thank you for your kind comments sis : )

Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton
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Message: 4
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:03:49 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: the "world"

Steve,
Thank you very much.  I think what you put forth makes a lot ofsense.  I
never considered the transfiguration; I just assumed this to mean thesecond
coming.  But the verses you speak of "fit."  As I said, whenI read Mt 24, I
cannot shake the notion that this is speaking to us (or, I should rather
say, to the generation that sees all those things).  On the otherhand, I
think it's good to examine all this and know what I believe and why.  The
problem for me with this whole preterism issue is that it is so enormous, I
don't quite know how to go at it.  It's not really one point ofdiscrepancy,
but encompasses everything.  I think Mark and Neil are sincere,though, and
I can understand how all "the sky is falling" misinterpretation cando
damage to people's faith.  When too much ground is covered atonce with
this, I don't possess the ability to sort it all out at once and questions
hang in the recesses of my mind.  (Ahh, old age!).  Thankyou again for the
time you took here.    Lori

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Message: 5
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:23:17 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: PRAYER REQUEST

Dear Mike - please immediately forward this request to the Sharpen List.  We
found out just a few hours ago that our nephew, Jonathan Coogan, 17,is in a
coma in a hospital in Buffalo, NY. Jon is a great kid, a senior in high
school, recently accepted to three colleges.  (He is the son ofJim's
brotherJohn, who "got saved" back in the Fellowship, but Jim's parents discouraged
him from joining back then).  All of his life he has gone to aliberal
Presbyterian church where the family attends, but we don't know howmuch he
has actually heard of the gospel.  Mostly, we haven't had timewith him in
the past 7 years or so, he has missed some of the family get-togethers.

Jon took a bunch of animal tranqualizers that he got at the vet wherehe's
had a part-time job lately.  He came home in a stupor and hisdad was in
process of asking him what was wrong when he passed out.  TheEMT arrived
andfound he wasn't breathing so they had to intubate.  He has beenin the coma
since Thursday; it is now Sat. night.  Please ask everyone youknow to pray
for him.

We think it is preformance anxiety, because a lot is expected of him,and
Jim's family is very "stoic" and doesn't discuss real issues. Gosh,
unconditional love is so important to kids!  Please pray thatJon wakes up
very soon, can breathe on his own, doesn't have any memory damage andthat
God will turn this situation around and redeem it in the family.  Also pray
for our girls who are very very upset at all this.  Thank youfor your
concern, and I'll let you know what happens.
love in Jesus, Nancy C. and family

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Message: 6
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:05:40 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: PLEASE WELCOME

This has to be the same Marva I saw at the reunion last year.
She can tell you, when she said her name - I at first didn't have aclue.
And then my jaw dropped.  She still has that same smile - and
absolutely beautiful voice.
It had been - a little over twenty years.  And some people, forwhat
ever reason, hadn't crossed my mind.  But this was certainly a
pleasant surprise.  I'm glad I remembered.  I hope there'sothers
I haven't forgotten.

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Message: 7
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:05:15 -0800
  From: "shenri" <shenri@sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: PRAYER REQUEST

we will pray,that sound so much like my nephew in a way,he o.d. on jimson
weed and was in a sort of coma and acted totally irrational for 4 days,but
he came back ok,it was a long recovery after that,he was acting "beside
himself "for weeks after that episode.All for a thrill!

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Message: 8
  Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:36:35 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: the "world"

> Steve,
> Thank you very much.  I think what you put forth makes a lotofsense.  I
> never considered the transfiguration; I just assumed this to meanthe second
> coming.  But the verses you speak of "fit."  As I said,when I read Mt 24, I
> cannot shake the notion that this is speaking to us (or, I shouldrather
> say, to the generation that sees all those things).

No, you said "to us" and I think you meant it.  Or, forgive me,Iknow that's
what I would have been saying - so don't let my feelings cover yours.
We read that chapter so much sitting in that circle in Washington Square
Park.  And not a lot on the list here can relate to that - becausethe circle
onlyheld about 100 - so we are a few.  (Darlene was there; Jeff Seif was there;
who on the list was there?  Steve and Herm - you were there, weren't you?)
          Some of thosewillremember the night
the wind swept the trees in front of us like it was another Pentecostor
something.  (It certainly was the wind!)
But when you say "I cannot shake the notion" I thank you very muchfor those
words.
That is the primary reason I have started my book "Matrix and Mindsets-
The Emperor's Old Clothes (You were rethinking your Christianity anyway,
weren't you?)
That's the whole title there - the working title for now.  I havefifty pages
typed.  Anyway - I'm hoping it will keep me busy and away fromlong posts.
(did I hear a Hallelujah?)
But that's the whole point about mindsets - we CANNOT shake them -
and I thank you for your honesty.

> On the other hand, I
> think it's good to examine all this and know what I believe and why.  The
> problem for me with this whole preterism issue is that it is so enormous, I
> don't quite know how to go at it.  It's not really one pointofdiscrepancy,
> but encompasses everything.  I think Mark and Neil are sincere, though, and
> I can understand how all "the sky is falling" misinterpretation cando
> damage to people's faith.  When too much ground is covered atonce with
> this, I don't possess the ability to sort it all out at once andquestions
> hang in the recesses of my mind.  (Ahh, old age!).  Thankyou again for the
> time you took here.

That's why I would recommend the book I received a post card about inthe
mail - oh, maybe a year ago.  I stuff stuff away - hoping to gooverit later.
I used to subscribe to Christianity Today and that Angels thing; Archaeological
Today - but I justnever read them - so I let them run out and have thrown out the oldissues.
I'll never get to them.  Be real.  Anyway - I did run acrossthis post card -
and I don't know whose mailing list I was on that they bought - butthis thing
did interest me a little when I read it - so when I finally found Arlen
Specter'sbook in a store for my dad for Christmas, I looked up this book, andthere it
was - so I bought it.  I recommend it, as it is introductory instyle - just
what Ineeded.  It takes you by the hand.  You don't have to goif you want, but I
personally recommend "Beyond The End Times" by John Noe.
And like the stuff I said about with Steve and all - don't read itif you're
challenged or want to stay where you are - because opening this door-
you may rejoice like I have - but there's no closing it!  As Ihave compared
it to many things - there's the one - "You see that consummate 'ladies'man in
MacMillan and wife?  Well..."  And things can be differentthanwhat they
have formerly seemed. (Rock Hudson turned out to be gay - shatteredsome
illusions of mine, to say the least...)
This, for me, has brought so much more to consider, and considering
Jesus' admonition "Seek, and ye shall find." - I'm wondering - whereit all
ends?
There is a limit to all perfection; but thy commandment is exceedinglybroad.
Wow - think about that - David is saying he has seen a limit to ALLperfection.
So, - you see something that is perfect - it's limited.  If youcan see the
limitations
as David did...
Concomitantly he saw God's commandment as open ended.
Heavy, eh?
"...even though a wise man claims to know, he cannot find it out."

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Message: 9
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:41:22 -0500
  From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
Subject: Re: PRAYER REQUEST

Hello Nancy,

Will pray for Jon and all the Coogans.

Mary

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Message: 10
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:03:46 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse Jackson

Was this under the humor category?
From:  Owen
       Dear Cindy
      Absolutely.
 

A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 11
  Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:25:29 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Biblical Blasphemy/lying spirit,
 

From:  Owen
       Dear Ray
      The solution is this: God only deceivesthose he is planning to destroy.  God destroyed Ahab because he usedthe legal system to murder Nabioth(sp).  In 2Thess 2 There's anotherreason.
 

A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 12
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:39:46 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

TOM:  In that -  do we forgive? Cause he has apologized
From:  Owen
       Dear Tom
      He didn't sin against me.  Nowif I had looked up to him and he let me down, or if I gave money or timebecause of him then....  But I have always disagreed ideologicallywith him; and because he defended Clinton (I have no respect for him and)I'm not surprised.
 

A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 13
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:02:35 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Song of Solomon

It is recorded in the Talmud that Sadducees confronted Gamaliel, challenginghim for scriptural proof of the resurrection of thedead. he offered themcitations from Deuteronomy, one from the Song of Solomon,and ...
From:  Owen
       Dear ?
      I find this interesting because whenI wasreading someone's notes/commentary on Songs, they said that it wasnever usedto settle a question of doctrine.  That may be true aboutmodern (last500 years) scholars, yet Gamaliel does make use of it.
 

A family tree is worth bragging about only if it produces good  timber and not just nuts.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 06:10:27 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 550

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Message: 2
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:18:15 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re: Jesse Jackson

> TOM:  In that -  do we forgive?  Cause he has apologizedFrom: Owen
>         Dear Tom
>        He didn't sin against me.  Now if I had looked up to him and he
> let me down, or if I gave money or time because of him then....  But I
> have always disagreed ideologically with him; and because he defended
> Clinton (I have no respect for him and) I'm not surprised.

I suppose there's a difference between not respecting someone and
"having an unforgiving attitude toward them" - (and just exactly what
 does that mean?!)  I think as US citizens we're too emotionally
      involved.  The rest of the worldhas a better perspective.
Having recently read that humungous book Modern Times - there's
what world leaders did - and then there was what was said about them,
and what was written about them - the media picks and chooses their
battles.  There's a story that makes Whitewater look like kindergarten
but I don't know if the media is going to choose to attack Bush ornot.
 They haven't yet, per se.  It's been out there - like manythings -
    but it's when they take on a life of their own.
 And this one obviously hasn't and maybe never will...
President Nixon was elected with the most popular vote ever in US
history.  Know when that happened?  AFTER the watergate break-in
was exposed.  But then it took on a life of its own and ruinedhim.
They didn't like him to begin with, but then they built him up -( so
muchso that, like I said - more popular vote than ever).  And thenwhen they
choseto "get him" - they did.  And that's why, I said it before, hechose the
words"You don't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore."  Because he was
    the proverbial political football they were toyingwith.
    It's like riding a wave or something.  A lifeallits own.

As for foibles  - ever consider the man who was "after God's ownheart?"

(Don't blame the messenger, I'm just telling you what it says in the
scriptures.)
Why did he have - or more appropriately HOW did he have that many
wives and concubines?  What kind of a schedule does thatinvolve?
   And then he has to lust after someone else's wife?!
       Houston, we have a problem.
Of course, the scriptures do call this sin.  And as Nathan's storyends
up - 'that man is you!'
So with Jesse, and anyone else - there's the way we talk about them.
Taking a photo of someone's life in a certain situation isn't theirlife
in  total.
And it isn't right.
If we can't forgive and forget - rightly (eeks, a Cobu word!)
then what hope is there?  One of the horrible things about thethought
stopping clichés Stewart would label us with - once he calledyou an
"anxious" brother, it was over.  We knew you were anxious forlife.
Have we moved on from that? 

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Message: 3
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:13:22 -0500
  From: "racoonrr" <racoon99@pnpa.net>
Subject: It's been quite a while

 Dear Mike, Brothers and Sister on Sharpen,
    It was necessary for me to take a break from Sharpenfor a while.  This
past semester was the busiest time of my entire life, or so it seemed.  I
didn't have one day off so you can imagine what my house looked likeby the
time December came rolling around.  The courses I took were beyond
challenging and time consuming as well.  There were times I thoughtI would
have a nervous break-down due to poor rest and sheer exhaustion.
Delightfully I must say I have been tested and tried and have survivedwith
just a few singes around the edges.  This semester will make thelearning
experience seem fun and enjoyable in comparison to what I just endured!
Recently I visited my brother in LaGrange, Ohio just 30 miles from
Cleveland.  This trip was long in the waiting.  Much healingthrough shared
memories took place of which I am so grateful.  I visited thecemetery where
my parents and two brothers are buried.  Of course I was surprisedto have
seen all the architectural changes in the down town area of Cleveland.  Two
new stadiums were built and the Terminal Tower received such a facelift it
hardly resembles its former self.  We took footage of the outsideofthe
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and saw the new Science Center from theoutside
as well.  Time seemed to fly by rather quickly and a few extradays would
have been appreciated.  It always seems vacations are never longenough,
agree?  I read many of your posts from time to time but I'm sureI missed
many in the past few months.  I will respond to some of your postsas time
permits.
    May our Lord richly bless each and every one ofyou and fill you with a
sense of His presence.
In Christ,
Darlene Griffith

P.S.:  Mike, I tried to send this post through the non debatinglist but it
would not go through so I piggy backed off your e-mail.

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Message: 4
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:26:23 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: from Nancy C

>  I celebrated my spiritual birthday last week
> (Jan. 12, 1976 in the New Brunswick Fellowship).  I prayed forthose who
> were there for me then.  We've all come a long way on the Pathsince then,
> haven't we children?
> The lady of the House of Coogan greets you.
> Love Nancy C.

Good to hear from you.  Happy birthday.
We've all come a long way, baby.

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Message: 5
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:30:18 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: It's been quite a while

Welcome back to activity on the list.
 

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Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:00:31 -0800 (PST)
  From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: Fwd: Forward to Sharpen/Update

THIS IS FROM NANCY C....respond to her email address..she is NOT on
SHARPEN...thanks.mm
----- Original Message -----
>  From: Nkcsigner2@aol.com
>  Message-ID: <c9.c86e203.279d0175@aol.com>
>  Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:22:29 EST
>  Subject: Forward to Sharpen/Update
>  To: mikemontoya2@excite.com
>
>  Dear Mike- thank you for forwarding the prayer request forJonathan our
>  nephew.  He came out of the coma today, around 2-3 pmEST.  We really
feel it  was because of prayer.  Thank you Jesus.  He wasable to speak, but he is
very groggy.  It was really touch and go there for a while,a matter of
life  and death.  His heart and breathing had stopped at onepoint.  This is a
>  matter of a good kid never feeling "good enough," and a lotofpressure
for  worldly success.  We are so glad God has given him a second chance at
life.  The family attends Presbyterian church, but we don't thinkJon has heard
a   clear Gospel message.  We ourselves haven't been aroundwith any chance
on   that either.  This has really sobered our kids about their cousins, as
you   may well imagine.  Please continue to pray that God restores him to
health.   I have also been so impressed that others who don't even know us were
kind   enough to pray through prayer chains; we believe that trulyturned the
tide   and moved the hand of God.  It is a big relief to knowhe has pulled
through   now.  Got to go get some sleep. Thanks again - writemeat home anyone
who  wants to say hi.
>  Love your sis, Nancy C.

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Message: 7
  Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:21:37 EST
  From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Cryptic Nancy

In a message dated 1/19/01 8:10:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sharpen@egroups.com writes:

Nancy writes:

<<  I put my shields up just to approach the subject matter
of the Curved Sword. (Personally, I prefer a straight-blade any day).
Obtuse?  Now let's see, how black is that kettle again, and who'sdoing the
name calling?  I'm glad there are the healing words and quickeningmedicines
 >>

    Symmetor is not a scimitar. Symmetor establishessymmetry.
    Which of us is not being straight here?
    The obtuse woman so called is a denizen of anotherlist on eGroups,
whose obtuseness has nothing necessarily to do with her womanhood;I suppose
that by some obtuseness of their own, women on other lists might havefelt
obliged to take offense.
    Lightly you heal the hurt of God's people, saying,'Peace, Peace' when
there is no peace. Truth rudely sqeezes out pus, and burns antiseptically.
Afterward the balm and the bandage are appropriately applied.   - Neil
 

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