>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 531
>Date: 3 Jan 2001 11:17:00 -0000
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:14:46 -0500
>    From: bsp15@juno.com
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>
>Happy anniversary, Maureen! Should we call it an exodus anniversary?
>Maybe someone can come up with a good name for this event.
>
>"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven andthe
>first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea" (Rev.
>21:1).
>Bob San Pascual
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:44:58 -0500
>    From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>
>
>Hi Carol & All,
>
>I'm sorry for not writing in such a long time, these past two monthshave
>been very busy, and also very special ones.  On Nov. 12, I wentto church
>for the first time since COBU days...and said the Sinner's Prayer,a
>rededication...and have been attending Bible study and fellowshipever
>since.   It is so good to be worshipping with brothers andsisters again.
>  In so many ways, He has set my life right once again and answered my
>prayers.  There are just no words adequate enough to describeit.
>
>Thanks for missing me, Carol!  Diana, I've been praying for your father,
>and had been for some time since we e-mailed when I first found thislist.
>  Hard to believe it's almost two years since I joined Onelist/Sharpen.
>
>Happy 2001 to all of you!
>
>Love,
>Cathy B.
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 20:55:47 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: broken wrist
>
> > Rachel auditioned at Ithaca College on Dec. 9 on violin
> > and 4 days later broke her right wrist in 2 places (her life seems to
> > have come to a grinding halt ... can't work at the theater, but they
> > call her in every once in a while to tear tickets). She shouldget her
> > cast off ... in mid-Feb ... I guess that's it for auditions.
>
>A musicians nightmare.  I remember when I would just jam my finger
>a little playing sports I could put my whole band in jeopardy.
>But you can't live in a bubble.
>I winced when I read that.  That's horrible.  Fortunatelyshe's young
>and it'll probably heal well and fast.  And I'm assuming she'sright
>handed so that her left wrist on the fingerboard is still fine.
>I always thought if I had a major accident - as long as I could put
>a pick in my right hand somehow - I could still play.
>I hope she fully recovers quickly.
>This will certainly give her another perspective on her
>music and performing.  All things work for the good.
>I hope plenty good comes out of this.
>BTW - I never heard the online stuff.  I'm just not that goodwith
>computers.  My brother did some brilliant work on his Weekend
>at Bernie's website (that's the band he's doing sound for now)
>I saw it on his system.  When I tried to watch online on my
>computer - I had to download Flash 5.  And well, that was the
>end of it.  I mean you go to this page, and to that page, and
>download this - to what file and I'm lost I tell ya.
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:05:50 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>
>Sister Cathy,
>My heart rejoices over your wonderful news.
>"Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!"
>"and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,not
>neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one
>another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
>Welcome back to the list and may the Lord continue to bless you asyou
>fellowship, and pray and study God's Word in the church you now attend.
>"Thou hast multiplied, O LORD my God, thy wondrous deeds and thy thoughts
>toward us; none can compare with thee! Were I to proclaim and tellofthem,
>they would be more than can be numbered."
>Happy New Year sis.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:14:45 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
>
>Sister Lori,
>Thanks for the kind words sis. I am greatly encouraged that the Lordhas
>given you such a love and confidence in His Word. I have always found your
>handling of scripture to be most edifying.
>Pray for me that my obedience and willingness to obey His Word matches my
>confidence and trust in His Word.
>Brother Herm is a great warrior of the Word and I am honored to be
>mentioned
>with him.
>Stay the course until our Lord returns, beloved sister.
>Happy New Year.
>
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:16:57 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
>
>Sister Lori,
>Well said sis.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton

>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 7
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:19:08 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
>Subject: Re: DOSland for MEusers
>
>Brother Ray,
>Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not in a proverb or a riddle:)
>Thanks bro.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
______________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 8
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:21:33 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
>Subject: Re: precision
>
>Brother Owen,
>Sounds logical to me.
>Happy New Year bro. : )
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 9
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:56:45 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
>Subject: Re: this goes on to the end
>
>Brother Tom,
>Regarding your comment, "but there's still more to be mined from what was
>originally written down for us"
>If you mean that God will often give us deeper insights into His Word as we
>cry out to Him as in Proverbs "My son, if you receive my words andtreasure
>up my commandments with you,making your ear attentive to wisdom and
>inclining your heart to understanding" I concur..."yes, if you cryout for
>insight and raise your voice for understanding,if you seek it likesilver
>and search for it as for hidden treasures" His promise of giving usdeeper
>understanding in the scriptures is very true..."then you will understand
>thefear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD gives wisdom;
>from his mouth come knowledge and understanding".
>If you are speaking of receiving knowledge that God has hidden inHisWord
>Iagree to this degree..."My purpose is that they may be encouragedinheart
>and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete
>understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely,
>Christ,in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.I tell
>you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments".
>I am not concerned with any supposed newly discovered message withinthe
>Word that has now been revealed in these last days.
>Jesus told a parable in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man-theupshot
>was this: "Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send
>him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to
>them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham saidtohim,
>"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said,"No,
>father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
>But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither
>will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."'
>If they read hidden messages between the verses but do not hear Moses and
>the prophets, neither will they be persuaded by these things.
>I don't think we will ever mine it all out before Jesus comes back.Ialso
>don't believe there is a separate source of Godly knowledge basedupon a
>between the lines approach. Simply put, God gives wisdom when youaskHim.
>James 1:5.
>God bless you bro.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton

>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 10
>    Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 00:28:45 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <mloftus955@hotmail.com>
>Subject: list of preterist sources - lengthy message
>
>ED  G.  wrote  -  (04 Dec 2000, 1940)   Gjude20@aol.com;
>Are there any books about your view which you would recommend besides John
>Bray's booklets? I have his. Ed
>
>MARK  writes  -
>Ed, I promised you a list of sources on preterism for you to checkout a
>while back when I was in Florida, so here it is.  What followsis a large
>bibliography on preterist sources compiled by Ed Stevens.  Myfavorite so
>far is ?The Spirit Of Prophecy?, by Max King
>
>Bibliography
>PRETERIST  SOURCES  -  COMPILED BY ED STEVENS
>1. BOOKS WHICH TEACH A SIMILAR VIEW:
>
>-      Beeson, Ulrich R. The Revelation,published by the author, 1956.
>-      Bell, William H.,Jr.  EschatologyIn The Book Of Galatians, Memphis,
>TN,   William H. Bell Jr., 1992
>-      Blessing, William L. Showers of Blessing, Feb. 1979, (698th issue).
>-      Bray, John L.  Matthew 24 Fulfilled,Lakeland, FL: John L. Bray
>Ministry, Inc., 1996., Memphis,
>-      Brown, Alexander (of Aberdeen). TheGreat Day Of The Lord; Eliot
>Stock, 1894.  London:
>-      Camp, Franklin.  The Work oftheHoly Spirit In Redemption; Roberts
>&Son Publications, Box 1807, Birmingharn, Alabama. 1974.
>-      Canon Press, And It Came To Pass;Third Annual CEF Symposium,
>Moscow,ID: Canon Press, 1993.
>-      Chilton, David. The Days of Vengeance,Ft Worth: Dominion Press,
>Texas. 1987.
>-      Chilton, David. The Great Tribulation;Ft. Worth: Dominion Press,
>Texas. 1987.
>-      Chilton, David,. Paradise    Restored, Ft. Worth: Dominion Press,
>Texas. 1985.
>-      Clarke, William Newton, An OutlineOfChristian Theology, Charles
>Scribner?s Sons, 1903, 12th Edition, Originally Published in 1894
>-      Cowles, Henry (1803-1881) (of Oberlin,USA)  The Revelation Of John;
>New York: Appleton, 1882-1890.
>-      Crews, David P.,  Prophecy Fulfilled? God?s Perfect Church; Austin,
>TX: New Light Publishing, 1994.
>-      Dale, R. W.,  The Coming Of Christ,  1878 sermon - out of print,
>-      DeMar, Gary.,  Last Days Madness,  Obsession of the Modern Church,
>Atlanta, GA; American Vision, 1994.
>-      Desprez, Philip S.,  The ApocalypseFulfilled; Longmans: 1861.
>-      Fadeley, Gene. H.,  Revelation:Kingdoms In Conflict;  Charlotte,
>NC;Anchor Publishing, 1996.
>-      Fadeley, Gene. H.,  Hebrews:Covenants In Contrast;  Charlotte, NC;
>Anchor Publishing, 1996.
>-      Farrar, F. W., The Early Days Of Christianity;Cassell and Company,
>Ltd., London, Paris, New York and Melbourne, 1905.
>-      Goodhart, C.A, The Christian?s Inheritance;Nisbet, 1891.
>-      Groh, Ivan., Jesus Returned To PlanetEarth; Pub. by Inspirational
>Publications, Peterborough, NH 03458,1984
>-     Grotius., Annotations, 1644.
>-      Hall, Michael L.PHD, Apocalypse Then(Not Now), Indexing The
>Apocalypse;  Grand Junction, CO: Empowerment Tech., 1997
>-      Hamilton, James,  Light On TheLast Days; Printed by K & R Davidson,
>Ltd., Glasgow, Scotland, 1962
>-      Hammond, Henry (1605-1660), A Paraphrase& Annotations Upon The
>N.T.;(1st Edition ?1653), London; J. Macock & M. Flesher for Richard Royston,
>1681 (5th Edition Corrected)
>-     Hampden-Cook, Ernest,  The Christ HasCome;  London:  Simpkin,
>Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co., Ltd.  (Third Edition ? 1905), (1st Edition
>?1894).  Was reprinted by Old Paths Publications, Lancaster,CA
>(1978 ? Out Of Print Now)
>-      Harris,  J. Tindall; The WritingsOf  The Apostle John,  Hodder
>-      Herder, Johann Gottfried Von (1744?1803); Maranatha, Das Buch Von
>Der Zukunft Des Herrn, Des N. Testaments Siegel; Riga, 1779. It is also in
>a work by the author called, Sammtliche Werke, pub. In 1877 &1909.
>Stuttgart & Tubingen, 1852
>-      Hinds, Samuel.   The Catechist?sManual,  1829
>-      Hurte, William,  The RestorationNT Commentary in Question & Answer
>Form ? A Catechetical Commentary; Old Paths Publishing Co., Rosemead, CA,
>1964
>-     James, Timothy A., The Messiah?s Return:Delayed? Fulfilled? Or
>DoubleFulfillment?  1982
>-     King, Alexander,  The Cry Of ChristendomFor A Divine Eirenikon.
>       King, Max R.,  The CrossAnd The Parousia; Warren OH, Parkman Rd
>Church Of Christ, 1987
>       Kimg, Max R.,  The McGuiggan-KingDebate; Warren, OH: Parkman Rd
>Church Of Christ, 1975
>       Kimg, Max R.,  The Nichols-KingDebate; Warren, OH: Parkman Rd
>ChurchOf Christ, 1973
>       King, Max R.,  Old TestamentIsrael; New Testament Salvation; Warren
>OH, Parkman Rd Church Of Christ,1987
>       King, Max R.,  The SpiritOf  Prophecy; Warren OH, Parkman Rd Church
>Of Christ, 1971
>       Leonard, Janice E.. Come OutOfHer My People; Chicago, IL;
>LaudermontPress; 1991
>       Leonard, Richard C. and JaniceE.;  The Promise Of His Coming,
>Laudermont Press; 1991
>       Lightfoot, John,  A CommentaryOn The New Testament from the Talmud
>and Hebraica; originally written In 1675, reprinted by Baker Books,Grand
>Rapids, 1979
>      Mandrell, J.I.  and Fly, Earl.  The Fly-Mandrell Debate, Newbern, TN:
>1955. (unpublished).  Mandrell affirmed 70 AD fulfillment
>       Mattill, A. J., Jr. Luke andtheLast Things, Dillsboro, NC: Western
>North Carolina Press, 1979.
>       Maurice, F. D. The Apocalypse,1861, also The Kingdom of Christ, (2
>vols.) London: 1958 (edited by A. R. Vidler).
>       McRay, Ron.  The Last Days,Bradford, PA: Kingdom Publications,
>1990.
>       McRay, Ron.  Through TheWater, Through The Fire, Mineola, TX: pub.
>byauthor, 1992.
>       Mills, Jessie E. Survey of theBook of Revelation, Bonifay Florida:
>Route 2 Box 308.  Daniel and Zechariah also available.
>       Morris, Marion.  Christ'sSecond Coming Fulfilled, Winchester,
>Indiana: Wm. Mitchell Printing Co., 1917.
>       Murray, J.O.F. See CambridgeCompanion to the Bible, 1893.  Newton,
>Bishop Thomas.  Dissertations on the Prophecies, (3 Volumes)1754-1758.
>       Nisbett, N. (of Ash-Next-Sandwich,Kent) The Triumph of Christianity
>Over Infidelity, Rivingtons, 1802.
>       Noe, John.  The ApocalypseConspiracy, Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth &
>Hyatt, Publishers, Inc., 1991.
>       Noyes, John Humphrey.  TheGreatest Secret in the World, (pub. By
>G..N. Miller, 188 W. Houston St., New York), also The Berean.
>       Otto, Randall E. Coming In TheClouds, An Evangelical Case for the
>Invisibility of Christ at His Second Coming.  Lanham, MD: University Press
>of America, Inc., 1994.
>       Paher, Stanley W. If Thou HadstKnown, Nevada Publications, Las
>Vegas,1978.
>       Pigeon, Albert R. The Time ofChrist's Return, Norristown, PA: pub.
>bythe author, 1994.
>       Pigeon, Albert R. The What-To-Do-While-Waiting-for-the-Rapture Quiz
>Book, Norristown, PA: pub. by the author, 1994.
>       Preston, Don K. Into All TheWorld, Then Comes The End, Ardmore, OK:
>pub. by the author, 1996.
>       Preston, Don K. Seal Up Visionand Prophecy, A Study of the Seventy
>Weeks of Daniel Nine.  Ardmore, OK: pub. by the author, 1991.
>      Preston, Don K. Second Peter Three:The Late Great Kingdom, Ardmore,
>OK: pub. by the author, 1990.
>      Rattray, Thomas (of Toronto). The Regal Advent, 1878.
>      Russell, James Stuart.  The Parousia,A Critical Enquiiy Into the
>N.T.Doct. of Our Lord's Second Coming, Bradford, Pennsylvania: Kingdom
>Publications, 1996.
>      Sotak, Max H., Th.  D. PropheticBible Studies, Denver, CO: pub. by
>theauthor, 1993.
>       Stephenson, J. A. Christologyofthe Old & New Testaments, 1838.
>       Stevens, Edward E.  ResponseTo Ken Gentry, Bradford,PA: Kingdom
>Publications, 1997.
>       Terry, Milton S. Biblical Hermeneutics,Grand Rapids: Zondervan,
>1974.
>   Originally published by Hunt & Eaton, New York, 1883.
>       Urmy, Wm. S. Christ Came Again,New York: Eaton/Mains, 1900.
>       Vanderwaal, Cornelius. Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophecy, Paideia
>Press, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, 1978.
>       Warren, Israel Perkins. The Parousia, Portland, Maine: Hoyt, Fogg
>andDohhany, 1879.
>       Wettstein (Wetstenii), JoannisJacobi.  Novum Testamentum Graecum,
>Amsterdam. 1751. Reprinted by Akademische Druck - U.Verlagsanstalt,Graz,
>Austria. 1962.  Available in Calvin College Library.
>       Weymouth, Richard F. New TestamentIn Modem S12cech, Grand Rapids:
>Kregel Publications, 1978.
>       Wright, Gerald.  SecondPeter Three: Jewish Calamity or Universal
>Climax?  Star Bible and Tract Corp., Fort Worth, Texas, 1976.
>       Young, Robert (1822-1888).  Commentary on Revelation, pub.before
>1885,and Concise Commentary on the Bible, London: Pickering &Inglis.
>       Ztillig, F. J. Die Offenbarunglohannis (The Revelation of
>John),Stuttgart: 1834.  Republished in two volumes in 1840.
>
>
>11.    FIRST-CENTURY FULFILLMENT OF REVELATION:
>
>       Adams, Jay.  The Time IsAtHand.  Pres./ Ref., Philadelphia, 1966.
>Balyeat, Joseph R. Babylon, The Great City of Revelation, Sevierville, TN:
>Covenant House Books, 1995.
>       Beeson, Ulrich R. (Listed Above).
>       Chilton, David. (Listed Above).
>       Clarke, William Newton. (ListedAbove).
>       Cowles, Henry. (Listed Above).
>       Dollinger, Dr. First Age of theChurch, vol. 2, pp. 79-96.
>       Farrar, F. W. (Listed Above)
>       Gentry, Kenneth L., Jr., Th.D.The Beast Qf Revelation, Tyler, TX:
>Institute for Christian Economics, 1989.
>       Gentry, Kenneth L., Jr., Th.D.Before lerusalem Fell, Tyler, TX:
>Institute for Christian Economics, 1989.
>       Hampden-Cook, Ernest. (ListedAbove)
>       Hartwig, F. G. Apoligie der Apocalypsewider falschen Tadel and
>falsches.  Lob.  Anonym.  Freiberg: 1780-83.
>       Hawk, Ray.  The Book ofRevelation and Hal Lindsey, 1978.  He also
>wrote an article on Armageddon.
>       Herder, Johann Gottfried Von.(ListedAbove).
>       Hurte, William. (Listed Above).
>       James, Timothy A. (Listed Above).
>       King, Max R. (Listed Above) .
>       Lightfoot, John. (Listed Above).
>       Maurice, F.D. (Listed Above).
>       McDonald, James Madison (1912-1876).  The Life and Writings Of St
>John, New York: 1877.  New Edition in 1880.  Edited by J.S. Howson, Gordon
>Press Publications, P.O. Box 459, Bowling Green Sta., NYC, NY 10004.1977.
>       Michaelis, John David. (Cambridge:Archdeacon, 1793-1802),
>Introduction To The New Testament, vol. 4, pp. 503,504.  HisSacred Books
>ofthe New.Testament is also good.
>       Mills, Jessie E. (Listed Above).
>       Ogden, Arthur M. The Avengingofthe Apostles And Prophets;
>Somerset,
>KY: Ogden Publications, 1991.   Second Edition.
>      Ogden, Arthur M., The Development ofThe New Testament, Somerset, KY:
>Ogden Publications, 1995.  Second Edition.
>      Russell, James Stuart. (Listed Above).
>      Stuart, Moses.  Commentary OnTheApocalypse;  (2 vols.), pub. by
>Allen: Andover, Mass., 1845.  New Edition with extra materialspub. in
>1864.
>   Also see his Commentary On Hebrews.
>      Terry, Milton S. (Listed Above).
>      Vanderwaal, Cornelius. (Listed Above).
>       Wallace, Foy E. The Book of Revelation,pub. by the author,
>Nashville,
>TN, 1966.
>      Wettstein, J. J. (Listed Above).
>       Wordsworth, Charles (Of Cambridge).Commentary on the Bible, mult.
>vols., 1866? and Lecture on the Apocalypse, (available from AMS Press,
>Inc.-, NYC, NY).
>      Young, Robert. (Listed Above).
>      Zollig, F. J. (Listed Above)
>
>
>111. TEACH A PRE-70 DATE FOR BOOK OF REVELATION:
>
>      Abauzit, Frank.  Essay Sur LApocalypse.  Geneva: 1730-1733.  He also
>wrote: Discours Historique Sur L'Apocalypse, trans. Into English in
>Miscellanies of ... Abauzit, London: 1774.
>      Adams, Jay. (Listed Above).
>       Auberlen, Karl August. Daniel and Revelation in Their Mutual
>Relation, Andover, 1857.
>       Bahnsen, Greg L. "The Book ofRevelation: Its Setting" (unpublished
>research paper; 1984)
>      Balyeat, Joseph R. (Listed Above).
>      Beeson, Ulrich R. (Listed Above).
>       Bleek, Friedrich(1793-1859).Lectures on the Apocalypse, edited by
>Hossbach, 1862. It was translated into English, 1875.
>      Camp, Franklin. (Listed Above).
>      Chilton, David. (Listed Above).
>      Clarke, William Newton. (Listed Above).
>      Cowles, Henry. (Listed Above).
>      Davidson, Samuel.  The Doctrineof the Last Things, 1882.  He also
>hasa good article on "The Book of Revelation" in John Kitto's two-volume
>Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, New York: Ivison & Phinney,1855.  See
>also his: An Introduction to the Study of the N.T. (first ed. 1848-1851),
>and his Sacred Hermeneutics, Edinburgh, 1843.
>      DeMar, Gary. (Listed Above).
>      Dollinger, Dr. (Listed Above).
>      Edersheim, Alfred.  The TempleIts Ministry and Services, Grand
>Rapids:
>Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1972 reprint, pp. 141-2.  Farrar, F.W. (Listed
>Above).
>      Field, Grenville O.,  Opened Seals? Open Gates. 1895.
>       Gebhardt, H. The Doctrine oftheApocalypse.  Eng.  Trans.
>Edinburgh:
>1878.
>      Gentry, Kenneth L., Jr. (Listed Above).
>       Glasgow, James.  The ApocalypseTranslated and Expounded.
>Edinburgh:
>1872.
>      Guericke, -. Einleit, ins. N. Test.
>      Hamilton, James. (Listed Above).
>      Hammond, Henry. (Listed Above).
>      Hampden-Cook, E. (Listed Above).
>      Hartwig, F. G. (Listed Above).
>      Hawk, Ray. (Listed Above).
>      Henderson, B. W. The Life & Principateof the Emperor Nero. pub.1903.
>Also, Five Roman Emperors,
>                    Cambridge: 1927.
>      Herder, Johann Gottfried Von. (ListedAbove).
>      Hort, F. J. A. Judaistic Christianity,Cambridge & London, 1894.
>Also,
>The Apocalypse of St. lohn, 1908.
>      Hurte, William. (Listed Above).
>      James, Timothy A. (Listed Above).
>      King, Max R. (Listed Above).
>      Lightfoot, J. B. Biblical Essays, 1867-1872.  See his other writings.
>      Lightfoot, John. (Listed Above).
>      Lucke, F. Finleitung in dee Offenborungdes Johannes, 2 Aufl., 1852.
>      Maurice, F.D. (Listed Above).
>      McDonald, James M. (Listed Above).
>      Michaelis, John David. (Listed Above).
>      Mills, Jessie E. (Listed Above).
>      M'Llvaine, Charles Pettit.  TheEvidences of Christianity.
>Smith,English & Co., Philadelphia: 1861.
>      Neander, August.  History of thePlanting & Training of the Christian
>Church. (2 vols.) 1889.
>      Ogden, Arthur M. (Listed Above).
>      Peake, A. S. The Revelation of lohn,London: Holborn Press, 1919.
>      Renan, J. E. L'Antechrist, Paris: 1873.
>      Reuss, Edward.  Histoz:y of ChristianTheology In The Apostolic Age,
>Strasburg: 1880.
>      Robinson, Edward (1794-1863). Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 3, pp. 532,
>540ff, 1843.  Also Harmony of the Four  Gospels.  Boston: 1853.
>      Robinson, John A. T. Redating the NewTestament, Westminster Press,
>Philadelphia, 1976.
>      Russell, James Stuart. (Listed Above).
>      Salmon, G. Introduction to the NewTestament.
>      Sanday, William.  Bampton Lectures,1893.
>      Schaff, Philip.  History of theChristian Church, Vol. 1, Grand
>Rapids:
>Eerdmans, 1910.
>     Selwyn, Edward Condon.  The Authorshipof the Apocalypse, and also The
>Christian Prophets & The Prophetic Apocalypse, both pub. in Cambridge,
>England, 1900.
>      Simcox, William Henry.  The Revelationof St. John the Divine,
>Cambridge, 1894.
>      Stuart, Moses. (Listed Above).
>      Terry, Milton S. (Listed Above).
>      Torrey, Chas.  C. The Apocalypseof lohn, New Haven, Conn.  Yale
>Univ.
>Press, 1958.  Also, The Four Gospels, New York, 1947.  Vanderwaal,
>Cornelius. (Listed Above).
>      Wallace, Foy E. (Listed Above).
>      Westcott, B. F. The Gospel AccordingTo St.John, London: 1902. Also
>Epistle to the Hebrews, London: 1889.
>      Wettstein, J. J. (Listed Above).
>      Wordsworth, Charles. (Listed Above).
>      Young, Robert. (Listed Above).
>      Zfillig, F. J. (Listed Above).
>
>
>
>V.    ALL N.T. BOOKS WERE WRITTEN BEFORE AD 70:
>      Beeson, Ulrich R. (Listed Above).
>      Camp, Franklin. (Listed Above).
>      Chilton, David. (Listed Above).
>      Hawk, Ray. (listed Above).
>      James, Timothy A. (Listed Above).
>      King, Max R. (Listed Above).
>      Mills, Jessie E. (Listed Above).
>      M'Ilvaine, Charles Pettit. (ListedAbove).
>      Ogden, Arthur M. (Listed Above)
>      Robinson, John A. T. (Listed Above).
>      Russell, James Stuart. (Listed Above).
>      Vanderwaal, Cornelius. (Listed Above).
>
>
>
>VI. 2ND PETER THREE FULFILLMENT IN AD 70:
>         King, Max R. (ListedAbove).
>         Lightfoot, John.(Listed Above).
>        Mills, Jessie E. (ListedAbove).
>        Owen, Dr. "Sermon on 2Pet. 3: 11 " in Works, folio, 172 1.
>        Preston, Don K. (ListedAbove)
>        Russell, James Stuart.(Listed Above).
>        Terry, Milton S. (ListedAbove).
>        Vanderwaal, Cornelius.  Search ffie Scril2tures, Vol. 1 0, Paideia
>Press, 1979.
>        Wright, Gerald. (ListedAbove).
>        Young, Robert. (ListedAbove).
>
>VII.  OTHER HELPFUL BOOKS:
>
>      Beasley-Murray, G. R. A CommentaryonMark 13, New York: St. Martin's
>Press, 1957.  Also Jesus & The Future, London: Macmillan,1954; and his
>commentary on Revelation.
>        Bray, John L. Israel InBible Prophecy, Lakeland, FL: John L. Bray
>Ministry, n.d.
>        Briggs, C. A. "The Originand History of Premillenarianism",
>Lutheran Quarterly, IX. 1879.
>       Brown, Dr. John.  ExositoryDiscourses On First Peter, Edinburgh:
>Haddington (1722-1787).
>       Church, Alfred John (1829-1912).  The Story of the Last Days of
>Jerusalem, From Josephus, (with illustrations), London: 1880.
>       Cohen, Abraham, Ph.D. Everyman'sTalmud; New York: E. P. Dutton &
>Co.,
>Inc., 1949.
>       Daley, Brian E., Sj.  TheHope of the Early Church, New York:
>Cambridge University Press, 1991.
>       Derenbourg, -. Histoire De LaPalestine Depuis Cyrus Jusqu?a Adrien,
>Paris: 1867 (first part of his "L'Histoire et la geographic de laPalestine
>d'apres les Thalmuds et ]es autres sources rabbiniques"), pp. 255-295. (A
>history of the Jewish War from Rabbinic sources).
>       Edmundson, G. The Church In RomeIn The First Century;  1913.
>       Eusebius.  The EcclesiasticalHistory, Trans. by Cruse, Grand
>Rapids:
>Baker Book House, 1971.
>       Farrar,F.W. History of lnterpretation,NewYork:E.P.Dutton,1886.
>       France,R.T. Jesus & The O.T.,London: 1971.
>       Fumeaux, Rupert. The Roman SiegeOf Jerusalem,  New York: McKay,
>1972.
>       Gould, E. P. The Gospel According To St. Mark.  Edinburgh: 1896.
>       Gulston, Charles.,  Jerusalem:The Tragedy & The Triumph, Grand
>Rapids: Zondervan, 1978.
>       Harris, Murray J. From GraveToGlory, Grand Rapids: Zondervan
>Publishing House, 1990.  Fine explanation of the nature of Christ's
>resurrection body and ours.
>       Harris, Murray J.  RaisedImmortal, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans
>Publishing Co., 1983.  Ditto the remarks above.
>       Israel, Gerard and Lebar, Jacques.  When Jerusalem Burned, New York,
>William Morrow & Co., 1973.
>       Josephus, Flavius.  CompleteWorks, Trans. by Whiston, Grand Rapids:
>Kregel Publications, 1960.
>       Kelly, J. N. D., F.B.A. EarlyChristian Doctrines, San Francisco:
>Harper Collins Publishers, 1978.
>       King, Max R. The Living Presence,Warren, OH: Living Presence
>Ministries, 1989.  Periodical dealing with preterist view.
>       Lewin, Isaac (?).  The Siegeof lerusalem By Titus, London: 1863.
>Shengold (N.Y.) or Hebrew Publishing (N.Y.).
>       Neander, Johann A.,  GeneralHistoiy of the Christian Religion &
>Church, Boston: Wiley & Putnam, 1870. (9 vols.) rev. ed. by Joseph Torrey;
>trans. from German; reprint of 1858 ed., AMS Press Inc., 56 E. 13thSt.,
>NYC, NY 10003.
>       Owen, Dr. John (1 72 1). The Works of lohn Owen, ed. by William H.
>Goold, New York: Robert Carter, 1851-1853.  See especially his"Sermon on 2
>Peter 3:11 " in the same book.
>       Pieters, Albertus.  "Chiliasmin the Writings of the Apostolic
>Fathers", The Calvin Forum, IV., 1938.
>       Silver, Daniel Jeremy. A History of Judaism, Vol. 1, New York:
>BasicBooks, Inc., 1974.
>       Stevens, Edward E. Kingdom Counsel,Bradford, PA: Kingdom
>Publications, 1989.  Periodical dealing with preterist view.
>       Stonehouse, N. B. The Apocalypsein the Ancient Church, 1929.  This
>book presents evidence from Patristic sources of the first six centuries
>forthe 70 AD application of Revelation.  Available from CalvinCollege or
>Westminster College (libraries).
>       Sweet, J. P. M.   Revelation,Westminster Press.  Also published in
>London:    SCM Press, Pelican Commentaries, 1979.
>       Swete, Henry Barclay.  TheApocalypse of St. lohn.  Eerdmans: 1951.
>       Tacitus.  The Histories,Trans. by Kenneth Wellesley, Baltimore:
>Penguin Books, 1972.
>       Wood, James D. The Interpretationof the Bible: An Historical
>Introduction, London: Duckworth, 1958. (first edition).
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 532
>Date: 4 Jan 2001 10:24:06 -0000
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 06:49:10 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: this goes on to the end
>
> > Brother Tom,
> > Regarding your comment, "but there's still more to be mined from what
>was  originally written down for us"
> > If you mean that God will often give us deeper insights into His Word as
>we  cry out to Him as in Proverbs "My son, if you receive mywords and
>treasure  up my commandments with you,making your ear attentiveto wisdomand
> > inclining your heart to understanding" I concur..."yes, if youcry out
>for  insight and raise your voice for understanding,if you seekit like
>silverand search for it as for hidden treasures" His promise of giving us
>deeper  understanding in the scriptures is very true..."thenyou will understand
>the  fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.For the LORD gives
>wisdom;  from his mouth come knowledge and understanding".
> > If you are speaking of receiving knowledge that God has hiddenin His
>Word Iagree to this degree..."My purpose is that they may be encouraged in
>heart  and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete
> > understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God,namely,
> > Christ,in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.I
>tell  you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-soundingarguments".
> > I am not concerned with any supposed newly discovered message within the
> > Word that has now been revealed in these last days.
> > Jesus told a parable in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man-the
>upshotwas this: "Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, thatyou would
>send  him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, thathe maytestify
>to  them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham saidto
>him,  "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'And hesaid,
>"No,father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will
>repent.'But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither
> > will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."'
> > If they read hidden messages between the verses but do not hear Moses
>and  the prophets, neither will they be persuaded by these things.
> > I don't think we will ever mine it all out before Jesus comes back. I
>also  don't believe there is a separate source of Godly knowledge basedupon a
> > between the lines approach. Simply put, God gives wisdom when you ask
>Him.  James 1:5.
>
>So, the question is - do we stay where we are right now;
>or do we still ask questions?
>I wrote on the list probably two years ago - I remember reading -
>and as usual, I can't remember where - but the Vatican wanted to have
>their priests more well trained.  This was around 1900. So they showed
>them the apparent contradictions in the Bible and the answers to them.
>Well, these young men weren't aware of these discrepancies.
>And once they found out -  half of the young men were outta there.
>So, do you really want deeper understanding, or do you wish to keep
>to old way which others have trod - and an old trodden path it isindeed.
>Cobu has only slightly modified it.
>Depends on if you're open minded or not.
>Wasn't but a half a year ago that I suggested reading the
>facts of the translation of Noah - and only one sister took me
>up on it.  Everyone else stuck to what was between their ears.
>And right now, it's evident how much that is.
>(I don't mean to be curt - but I don't have a whole lot either - butwhen
>doors are opened and glory is revealed - you would think others would
>rejoice instead of running for cover)
>Just my opinion - I suppose you think I'm wrong.  I'd like tothink
>both my eyes and ears are open.  I was hoping other's were too.
>Not always the case.
>I mean - more pointedly - when you say something, and people say
>"Oh, no, brother, it's not like that at all!" And then I simply say-
>well I read these things here - here, you read them - and then you
>don't.  Well, what is there left to say?
>I've moved on.
>You're "taking your stand" - but there is a firmer foundation should
>you "seek it like silver."
>I don't want to sound "elitist" at all.  Just open to readingwhat
>- - -  whatever.  It's early morning - I gotta run......The Jonah stuff.
>But - it's there if you want to read it and see it - I suppose I should
>just shut up and let you see it if you wish one of these millenniums.
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
>    Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:11:36 -0500
>    From: Mary <mary@readaloud.com>
>Subject: Re: broken wrist
>
>Hello Tom,
>
>Thanks for your commiseration. What's the address to the Weekend at
>Bernie's website?
>
>I wince a bit when I hear Rachel's web video but it doesn't soundtoo
>bad if it's not too loud. She's come a long way, and the violin we
>bought in Oct. helps too. It always seems like she's a "work in
>progress" with a few good notes but ... well you probably understand
>how that can be discouraging sometimes. She played the 1st movementof
>the Bruch violin concerto for the audition, and that is one that can
>really sound like cats fighting ... very difficult technically, but
>beautiful, try to hear it if you can (Napster?)(in G minor I think).
>
>When she first broke her arm I think she was more upset because she
>worried about how upset I'd be, but once something is done, what can
>you do but accept it and hope for the best. The doctor said it will
>take long to heal because she has "adult" bones and she has a whole
>arm cast that she's getting sick of, but yes, it may give her a
>different outlook. I miss hearing the violin so much I took it outand
>tried to play ... which gives me extreme appreciation of her talent!
>
>Mary
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:00:06 -0500
>    From: bsp15@juno.com
>Subject: Re: precision
>
>Hey, Owen. Just curious -- do you have the exact title of the book?
>
>"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven andthe
>first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea" (Rev.
>21:1).
>Bob San Pascual
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
>    Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:02:31 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
>Subject: settled
>
>Hello Sharpen,
>
>it's Mike M. really here in CA. unpacked all the stuff...packed upall my
>sister and brother-in-law's books..about 20 boxes and then unpackedMom and
>Dad's stuff to make room for my stuff. Mostly done....can't get intomy
>Hotmail boxes so I can't gather the sharpen files to make them webready.
>
>Jocelyn is doing well....after the holidays...everyone goes home andmy
>parents went off visiting so we have the place to ourselves. The children
>are good. They like the "bigger" house. More running room.
>
>Looking for a job now. Pray for me. the idea is to move from hereto
>wherever in 2 months.
>
>mm
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________

>Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 19:11:22 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: broken wrist
>
>Mary wrote:
>
> > Hello Tom,
> >
> > Thanks for your commiseration. What's the address to the Weekend at
> > Bernie's website?
>
>You're welcome.  Got up this morning and went on a rant. Good thing
>I looked at the clock or I would have left late for work.
>Don't know the exact address - I checked and it wouldn't go a few
>minutes ago - the link - which is
>http://www.wombatsweb.com
>and look for weekend at Bernie's.
>This is the brother who hosts web sites himself - which I think
>I told you before.
>I just tried to send this - I was cut off the line for some reason-
>will try and send later...
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 8
>    Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:05:24 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
>Subject: Re: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>
>Thanks Steve....for your encouraging words.  You are sweet.
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 9
>    Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:09:54 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>
>Great to hear from you Cathy!
>
>I'm  thrilled to hear you have found  a fellowship whereyou are being
>blessed!
>Thanks for your prayers...I know that God hears them.
>
>Blessings to you ,
>Love, Diana
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________

Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 533

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Message: 1
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:45:01 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: stargazing
 

Hi Owen, I recently purchased a used telescope at a thrift store foranew
hobby its got a 30x-50x power range, I paid $10 for it. I'm lookingforward
to using it. have you ever considered building your own telescope?Iknow a
pastor who did.

                                                                       Herm

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Message: 2
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:44:43 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Bushes and Moon

Here is an article summary and link to the article about this Bushesand
Moon. This is not something new.  Because I hang out in circleswithpeople
who make keeping up with cults in the news as part of their jobs, Ioftenget
to hear about this stuff.  Many people wrote Bush Senior in protestof his
collaboration with Moon, but obviously it didn't get anywhere. Moon's
tactics have been to align himself up with conservatives.  He'sactually
pretty bigoted to Americans and even within the Moon organization itisthe
Koreans who make it in the upper echelon. I had a very long talk withhis
former daughter in law about this, and in her book In the Shadow oftheMoons
she also goes more into detail and Moon's tactics.  Basicallyhesees
collaboration as a way to further his own mission.  Recently theChristian
Coalition openly stated that they support the values he stands forthough
they disagree with him on "key" issues.
Here's what I received:
<<To see an important new article on the entanglement of thecurrent
U.S. President-Elect and the former U.S. President Bush with the
America-hating Asian supremacist Reverend Sun Myung Moon, go to
http://www.consortiumnews.com/010301a.html
     This article appears on the websiteof TheConsortium, an important
source of information on Moon and his political allies.
     The first paragraph of the article readsasfollows:
     "Rev. Moon, the Bushes & DonaldRumsfeld
     By Robert Parry
George W. Bush's choice of Donald Rumsfeld to be U.S. defense
secretary could put an unintended spotlight on the role of the Rev.
Sun Myung Moon  - a Bush family benefactor - in funneling millionsof
dollars to communist North Korea in the 1990s as it was developinga
missile and nuclear weapons program."

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Message: 3
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:05:41 -0800 (PST)
  From: Dee Law-Jones <Musicheaven@yahoo.com>
Subject: Is There Yet Another List???

Hi Carol and all -

No, I haven't joined another list if there is
one...I've been soooooo busy with the holidays and
people coming and going.  And...I really tired of the
political debates so I fell silent.  And...I've been
working very hard on finishing my Microsoft
certification.  I finally finished and got my MCSE but
now I'm studying and working on the next set of
certifications which have to be completed by Dec.
2001.  Sigh!

Congrats to Maureen for 15 years of
freeeeeeedddooooommm!!!!  I left the boo in July of
1986 the Friday after the July 4th Big Beating.  That
makes it almost 15 years for me, too.  I thank God
almost every day for getting me out of there and
giving me my life back!  It's amazing how much fuller
and more fulfilling life can be when you're not
"behind bars"!

Anywho...it's back to work and studying for me.  Hope
everyone had a great holiday!

- Dee

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Message: 4
  Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:00:50 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???

That's great news, Cathy!

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea" (Rev.
21:1).
Bob San Pascual

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
  Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:10:52 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: list of preterist sources - lengthy message

Although I'm not a preterist, I did read one commentary on Revelation
from a preterist point of view. For those investigating, this is aneasy
book to read by a top New Testament scholar:

Metzger, Bruce M. Breaking the Code: Understanding the Book of
Revelation. Nashville, TN: Abingdon Press, 1993.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea" (Rev.
21:1).
Bob San Pascual

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:16:56 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???

Hi Dee !  15 years sure is a milestone.  I was in COBU 10years thus I've
been out 50% longer since I left than I was in.

Mary...I read about your daughter...it wasn't clear to me whether ornot she
could still get a scholarship because of her wrist being broke. I remember
your mentioning one place she auditioned, but I gather there were other
places at which she will not be able to audition.  Anyway, I willkeep her
(and the rest of you) in my prayers.

Also, Bob San...thank you for the anniversary wishes.

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Message: 7
  Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:19:51 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Bushes and Moon

This just goes right along with the Modern Times book
I'm almost done reading.  Money and arms and what goes
           on to get it done.
   Moon reminds me of Stewart - in this way:
Stewart went to the Madhatter Training Center to -
well I guess it was to control the older brothers somehow -
but more specifically - it was where he could figure out ways
to definitely make some big bucks.  Stewart was into that.
And Moon - why, he loves Korea - and is building a "Holy
Land" at his birthplace in Korea but where does he live?
  Where he can make a lot of money to send back home,
          that's where.
Those quotes of how he's going to "digest" Americans
who are into "individuality" sound chilling. They remind me
of what I've just
been reading - what Moa, Stalin, Idi Amin, Khrushchev, etc.
would say to the people.
When it comes to the press - you don't know what's going to
do what.  What's going to take on a life of its own.  Whatwill
take down the Presidency - and what will be ignored.  Most
is ignored.

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Message: 8
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:28:57 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???

Sister Dee,
Greetings in Christ and Happy New Year.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 9
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:52:15 -0500
  From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: stargazing

Brother Herm,
Greetings in Christ bro.
May the Lord bless you this year abundantly and draw you closer tohimself.
I had a very great honor bestowed upon me by my church near the endoflast
year. I became an elder. It is quite humbling to say the least.
My Pastor sent me a great verse via e-mail afterwards regarding elders:"The
elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witnessof
the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that willbe
revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as
overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gainbut
eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but beingexamples
to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receivethe
crown of glory that does not fade away."
I wanted to share this with you and the rest of my Christian familyonthe
list because we are all fellow pilgrims whom God brought together fora
brief moment in the whole scheme of things (eternity wise) and allowedusto
become bonded for the cause of Christ (however misguided or false ourleader
became). I also wanted to encourage all here that God is pleased touseus
jars of clay to fulfill His purpose in areas none of us ever dreamedwe
would ever be considered for.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 10
  Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:54:21 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
 

Thanks, Diana!  I may not say it very often, but I'm glad you'rehere,
sister from my New England past...

Returning to fellowship has been my lifeline.  In so many ways,He is the
same as He ever was.  If we will only seek Him every day of ourlives,
every moment, there really is nothing better in this life, than Hislove
for us.  My first day in church, I was spoken to directly, thingsonly He
could have known.  I was given so much these past two months,andpray to
hold fast to the urgency of wanting to know His will for me.

I know He hears us, dear sister, I know it...

Love,
Cathy B.

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Message: 11
  Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 21:11:21 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
 

Hi, Sir Stev!

It is good to be back!   Your response says it all:

>"Thou hast multiplied, O LORD my God, thy wondrous deeds and thy thoughts
>toward us; none can compare with thee! Were I to proclaim and tellofthem,
>they would be more than can be numbered."

Happy New Year to you & Mrs. Saxton,

Love,
Cathy

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Message: 12
  Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 21:17:36 -0500
  From: Cathy <cathy@ezonline.com>
Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
 

Dear Bob,

Yes - the best news there could ever be.

Cathy

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Message: 13
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 04:35:54 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: stargazing
 

From:  Owen
       Dear Lori
      Mars rises at about that time. Orionhas a red star in it and you can see that all night.  BUT radiotowershave a red light on top that will blink on and off because of thetreesand mountains obscuring it.

No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 14
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 04:42:34 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: this goes on to the end

I also don't believe there is a separate source of Godly knowledge based upon a between the lines approach
From:  Owen
       Dear Steve, Tom, etc
      IMHO a figurative meaning from scripturewould agree with the plain meaning.  At least it wouldn't contradictit.

No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 15
  Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 04:47:04 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: precision

Hey, Owen. Just curious -- do you have the exact title of the book?
From:  Owen
       Dear Bob
      No.

No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 16
  Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 03:55:31 -0500
  From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: flight

There was this Christian lady who had to do a lot of traveling for her
business so she did a lot of flying. But flying made her nervous soshe
always took her Bible along with her to read and it helped relax her.One
time she was sitting next to a man. When he saw her pull out her Biblehe
gave a little chuckle and went back to what he was doing.

After a while he turned to her and asked, "You don't really believeall
that stuff in there do you?"

The lady replied "Of course I do. It is the Bible."

He said "Well what about that guy that was swallowed by that whale?

She replied "Oh, Jonah. Yes I believe that, it is in the Bible.

He asked "Well, how do you suppose he survived all that time insidethe whale?"

The lady said, "Well I don't really know. I guess when I get to heaven I
will ask him."

"What if he isn't in heaven?" the man asked sarcastically.

"Then you can ask him." replied the lady.

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 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 02:52:07 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 534

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Message: 1
  Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:30:50 -0500
  From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: stargazing

Steve, congrats on becoming an elder at your church. I trust God willuse
you to encourage and instruct and serve many for our great Lord and
Savior.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea" (Rev.
21:1).
Bob San Pascual

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Message: 2
  Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:01:20 -0500
  From: "Walker, Michael S, PERSCOM" <walkerm@hoffman.army.mil>
Subject: Stargazing tonight...

On January 5 (evening):
Saturn is 2 1/2 degrees above gibbous moon, Jupiter 8 degrees to left,very
high in SE after sunset. Enjoy!
Mike
 
 

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Message: 3
  Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:46:19 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: stargazing

> Steve, congrats on becoming an elder at your church. I trust God willuse
> you to encourage and instruct and serve many for our great Lord and
> Savior.
>
I suppose it's a good thing - and you like it.
In my book it's all another story and I've written at length
about it.
This is one of the things where, yes Owen, the general meaning
will always be preserved - but a glowing example of where things
get terribly messed up is in translations that, for instance,
      use the Roman word Bishop.
  There is no such thing in the heavenly language.
And the elder stuff, as it is worked out today in certain
circles....  We already went there long ago, and I think it was
         ignored.  Sigh.
In my book, and in the Good Book - you were already an elder.
  You see the qualifications listed.  You meet them all.
What comes to  my mind is that even in Cobu I respected
and thought whatever you said came from a
   perspective I should listen to.
You've always been an elder as far as I'm concerned.
     (I said I'll listen - I may not agree)

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Message: 4
  Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:46:31 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: professional politician

I'm almost done reading this humongous book Modern Times.
We've had so much free time in work - I even thought of bringing
in Atlas Shrugged.  But that book is a thousand pages and
smaller print - so I stuck with Modern Times - The World from
the Twenties to the Nineties.   Recent history.
This is what I read on page 470 I thought interesting:
(or as everyone says nowadays - "intristing")

  "India illustrates the process whereby the full-time professional
politician inherited the earth in the twentieth century.  Reforms
created an alien system of representation.  A class of men, mainly
lawyers, organized themselves to manipulate it.  In due coursethe
governing power was handed over to them.  The dialog was
entirely between the old and the new elites.  The ordinary peopledid
not come into the play, except as a gigantic walk-on crowd in the
background.  The process was to be repeated all over Asia andAfrica.
The forms of the Westminster, Paris or Washington model were
preserved.  The substance was only tenuously present; or absent
entirely.  Lenin's Bolshevik's of 1917, Mao's CCP cadres of 1949and
the Congressmen of India came to power by different routes.  But
they had this in common.  All three new ruling groups were menwho
had never engaged in any other occupation except politics and had
devoted their lives to the exploitation of a flexible concept called
'democracy'."

Wow.  But read in context it's even stronger.  As I mentioned before,
I was reading about what was happening in India, oh, I guess starting
in the 1940's, and I said, "Gee, that sounds like what we've got
going in America here."  And then he came across with the above
paragraph.
It's a pet peeve of his - as 40 pages later he says:

  "The former colonies thus became superlative prey for the great
human scourge of the twentieth century: the professional politician."

And mentioning the media and Moon, and will the media mention Moon.
Who knows?
Certain things just catch on and take on a life of their own.
I was reading about Nixon - the east coast media hated him and kepthim
in check.  Then, I forget what - but suddenly - and even aftertheWatergate
break-in was first made public - Nixon won the election in a landslide.  And
I think it said he had the most percentage of a popular vote ever.
And then the Watergate witch hunt took on legs and they destroyed him.
They made him and they destroyed.  Remember he said, "Now youwon't
have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore..."  They used him likeatoy.
That the east and west don't like each other - maybe not you, but incertain
circles.  Remember in New York, not far from the lofts was HoustonStreet.
Now, how do you say Houston Street?
If you say Houston Street like Houston Texas - we know immediatelyyou're
not a New Yorker.
The pronounce Houston Street like "house" - like the house you livein.
They REFUSE to say it like Houston Texas.  - to give you an idea.
Also - this Monica stuff.  Shame on the impeachers.
It was all a smokescreen.
Why weren't they looking for treasonous selling of secrets to China?
That would be worth doing.
Instead we have to have a sex scandal.
See what I mean about some things get played up in the press (and
in Congressional Chambers) and some things don't.
What we're hearing is not necessarily the real issue we should be
facing.
We're just a walk-on part in the background.
And you can see that from reading history.
Is God really in control of the leaders?

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Message: 5
  Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:46:04 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: stargazing

Hi Steve, this is great news, congratulations. This is a great honorindeed.
if ever you need help in research or other matters feel free to calluponme.
I will pray for you that the Lord will help you fulfill your office,thatHe
may grant you wisdom & insight to know well the condition of theflock
entrusted to you & the other elders.

                                                           Herm

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Message: 6
  Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:40:54 EST
  From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: professional politician

In a message dated 1/5/2001 7:45:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, tpierron@Op.Net
writes:

<< Why weren't they looking for treasonous selling of secretstoChina?
That would be worth doing.
Instead we have to have a sex scandal.
See what I mean about some things get played up in the press (and
in Congressional Chambers) and some things don't.
What we're hearing is not necessarily the real issue we should be
facing.
We're just a walk-on part in the background.
And you can see that from reading history.
Is God really in control of the leaders?
 >>
Hi Tom, it seems sometimes that He isn't. E.G., some holocaust survivors
can't face how God allowed Hilter to do that if He is really in control.God
is really in control of all things, including leaders, according tothe
scriptures. trusting that God is in control is one of the pillars ofthe
faith. Many places in scripture, speak of God ordaining events in history &
the people & rulers who participate in these events. Check outDAN4:17,
25-26, 34-37, PRO 16:9, 20:24, 21:1, JOB 12, 34:17-25, PS 139:1-6,ISA
45:1-8, ACTS 2:23, 4:27-28, ROM 9:17, all of prophesy & its fulfillment
testifies to God's ordaining the beginning to the end.
                                                           Herm
 
 

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 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 02:51:25 MST [Show full headers]

Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 535

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Message: 1
  Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:08:57 -0500
  From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
Subject: Fw: A forwarded message  Very inspiring.
 

----- Original Message -----
From: MVlerius@aol.com
To: Bunchval@aol.com

this message was forwarded to me

Mike Valerio

Hi, friends!

A friend of mine sent this on to me. Thought you might find it
interesting.... I just love GWB!!!! :) Happy day to you all!
-Dave :)
>Just received this "forward" from my Mom.
>WOW!  I  like our future President - George W.
>Bush even more now!  kj
>
>INFO ABOUT OUR NEXT PRESIDENT.
>
>"There is a man in our church, Jeff Benoit, who has a
>friend who served on  President Elect Bush's campaign
>in Austin, and she called him to tell this story.
>
>Last week, Gov. Bush appeared at the thank-you
>banquet for his campaign staff, and was going table
>to table to shake hands with the 1000+ campaign
>volunteers.  He got to one lady, who by a brief
>comment she made, indicated she was a Christian.
>She was there with her 16 year old son.  Gov. Bush
>asked him if he was a believer, too.  He said he didn't
>think so.
>
>Gov. Bush then asked, "Do you mind if I tell you how
>I came to know Christ as my Saviour?"
>
>The boy agreed, and Gov. Bush pulled up a chair and
>witnessed to him for 30 minutes, and led him in the
>sinners' prayer!!
>
>Jeff's friend was so choked up, she could hardly tell
>the story through her tears.
>
>Yes, my dear friend, we are living in the in (?) times.
>How glorious to know that our new president is a man
>that doesn't feel the political pressure to glad-hand
>1000 people, but would take 30 minutes of his precious
>time to lead a teenager to Christ.
>======================================================

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Message: 2
  Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 23:24:09 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: professional politician

>  Is God really in control of the leaders?
>   >>
>  trusting that God is in control is one of the pillars of the
> faith.

In theory that was a rhetorical question.
But the spirit in which I asked it certainly seemed to demand an answer.
I've been reading - "by the 1990's violent or unnatural deaths of some
125 million people during the century, more perhaps than it had
succeeded in destroying during the whole of human history up to 1900."
Makes one wonder.  The coldness of Pol Pot and Idi Amin.
Lenin and Stalin.  Hitler.  Why?
Good scriptures

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Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 03:43:02 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 536

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Message: 2
  Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:22:01 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re: Bush...  a Christian...

> Diane,thanks for sharing this.I know that anyone can put anythingon
> the net and it is hard to verify... butI believe this.

We can believe or disbelieve - but we may never know.  We're at
  the whim of who knows who in the media.  (taken both ways)
   They made Nixon and destroyed Nixon.
Eisenhower wanted his perception to be one of a retired General
    who just wanted to play golf.
Even his closest advisor said, "Oh, he hates to use the phone."
Eisenhower's deception.  White House records show he was on
the phone extensively - and the reality is this President worked
harder than any other President most likely.  But that wasn'tthe
  perception of the world - and even those closest to him.
For him, the end justified the means.  He had a front row seat
when America sat there and let Russia have its way with Europe
at the end of W.W.II.  This was not going to happen again on
   Eisenhower's watch, and he made sure of it.
"Funny," to say W is there because of God - well, the scriptures
infer that.  Which also means Clinton reigned 8 years because
  of God.  Is God really in charge?

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Message: 3
  Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:27:13 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: professional politician

In the 1930's the USSR and Italy supported Spain's civil war.
For the Republicans in Spain - the chief object of hatred
was the Catholic Church.  But villages would not kill the
priest in their own village - but they might help to kill one
from another village.  Or as Archbishop of Valladolid said of
the peasants: "These people would be ready to die for their
local Virgin but would burn that of their neighbors at the
    slightest provocation."
I think that's the way some of us hold on to our beliefs.
Ours are sacred - while the next guys are subject, to say the
least.  We'll protect our own convictions to the death, but at
 the slightest provocations we'll kill the other guys.
    An accurate picture?
       I see it in me.
This is the ending of Modern Times.  (It sums up things, and I'm
telling you this, to tell you something else):
  "...the activist politicians, whose phenomenal rise in
 numbers and authority was one of the most important and
 baleful human developments of modern times.  It was
 Jean-Jacques Rousseau who had first announced that human
 beings could be transformed for the better by the political
 process, and that the agency of change, the creator of what
 he termed the 'new man,' would be the state, and the self-
 appointed benefactors who controlled it for the good of all.
 In the twentieth century his theory was fully put to the test,
 on a colossal scale, and tested to destruction.
 As we have noted, by the year 1900 politics was already
 replacing religion as the chief form of zealotry...
 ...This view, which would have struck an earlier age as
 fantastic, even insane, became to some extent the orthodoxy
 everywhere."

Matrix and mindset.
To you and me - this political system is the norm.
Not so to most of history.

 "...became to some extent the orthodoxy everywhere: diluted
 in the West, in virulent form in the Communist countries and
 much of the Third World.  At the democratic end of the
 spectrum, the political zealot offered New Deals, Great
 Societies and welfare states; at the totalitarian end,
 cultural revolutions; always and everywhere, Plans.
 These zealots marched across the decades, and hemispheres:
mountebacks, charismatics, exalts, secular saints, mass
 murderers, all united by their belief that politics was the
 cure for human ills: (and he lists a bunch of names...)
 By the 1990's this new ruling class had lost its confidence
 and was rapidly losing ground, and power, in many parts of
 the world.  Most of them, whether alive or dead, were now
 execrated in their own homelands, their grotesque statues
 toppled or defaced.  Was it possible to hope that
 'the age of politics,' like the 'age of religion' before
 it, was now drawing to a close?"

Yes, the close of an age.
"What will be the sign of your coming and of the close of
      the age?"
The age of Jewish dominance.  The age of Jews being God's
 chosen people who sacrificed animals in the Temple. The
     shattering of the power of the holy people.
The age of Jewish dominance was closed. (70 AD)
A new heavens and new earth came.  "Rejoice O heavens;
    give ear O earth."
 Is it stars and the globe that the scriptures speak to?
From the book I just read I gleaned a lot of things I had
     not been aware of before.
In Josephus he talks about Jerusalem being surrounded by
armies.  It happened a couple times.  The Jews held them
off.  I suppose those who knew their God stood firm and took for
the hills like he told them to do.  "When you see Jerusalem
           surroundedby armies..."
But the early sieges were not successful and Jerusalem
       survived easily.  Would thisgive a false
feeling of security and superiority?  Were some of the
elect wooed back into the pit? (when they say 'there's peace
        and security...')
But what happened was the upsetting of everything as it had
          been:
      Josephus says:
I should not mistake if I said that the death Ananus was the
beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this
very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the
ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high-priest,
   and the procurer of their preservation; slain in the
  midst of their city... for he was thoroughly sensible
 that the Romans were not to be conquered.

Matrix and mindset.  The Jews were God's people - a
magnificent presence on the planet earth.  Don't mess
with the Jews - though God did allow them to be taken
at various times because of His wrath.
The people knew Ananus.  They also knew John of
Gischala - who Josephus writes of.  He killed the high
priest Ananus - the last of the voice of reason
in Jerusalem who had power.

Josephus records that this John of Gischala, the son
of Levi, - "John held the temple" - he set himself up
and got the inhabitants of the city to listen to and do
all kinds of crazy and what turned out to be self destructive
      things.
The Romans armies did not want another embarrassing turn away
as in recent years.  They wanted the city, that great city
  known all around the world - as a trophy.
But this John got the Romans so ticked of that they
 destroyed the city - melting the elements with fire
(there was gold leaf all around the city) and to get the
gold that melted between the rocks they left not one
 stone upon another.  Josephus records the atrocities.
The Romans wanted a simple victory.  But the man of sin,
as predicted, took over the city, and God's wrath came
 upon them at last - that all the righteous blood slain
before might come on this generation as Jesus had said.
Everything happened just as He said it would, just the
 way He said it would - in the language that He has
    always spoken.
You wanna kill my virgin, er, version?
 This is all new to me, but it sure makes more sense
than the previous things I held dear.  It won't be the
  first time my life has taken a paradigm shift.
I like how Mark put it, "it would take an act of Congress"
  for some to give up their sacred cows.
An act of Congress could create a law and put people
  in jail but it will not change hearts and minds.
Our hearts and minds were victimized in our youth.
Now we have free reign to reign in whatever teaching we
 deem worthy.  Orthodox?  What is orthodox?
It's a big wide wonderful world out there.  The One who
made the earth and sea and all that fills is altogether
 lovely.  "He has put eternity into man's mind..."
We've moved on from former beliefs before, haven't we?
Do you think where you are now may be your final christianity?

I have another novelette's worth of thoughts on another
subject:  if Jesus could tell them about Jerusalem being
surrounded by armies, why couldn't he tell them "about ten
years from now you're going to have a controversy over
circumcision: here's what you should do..."  Whey didn't He
lead them and guide in that way (although what would come
upon them in 70 AD certainly was more of a life and death
situation - and did hold more weight in God's eyes - being
the end of the age and all).  But Jesus never seemed all
   that geared up in getting them doctrinally correct.
Only on the road to Emmaus do we hear about Him "opening
up the scriptures so that they could see all the things
   concerning Himself."
He walked with them for three years, but didn't have an
intellectual - here's how you apply the scriptures guide
you guys...  It's like on the road to Emmaus "the things
  concerning Himself."
I think He just wants us to know Him.
 
 
 
 

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Message: 4
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 05:03:12 -0500
  From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
Subject: Bush...  a Christian...

HI Carol,

That's an interesting observation.  What type of disability doyou think he may have?  A speech impediment perhaps?   IFthat's the case, he sure is in good company  (remember Moses).  Ex:4:10: "And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neitherheretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slowof speech, andof a slow tongue. "
I also have heard that people who are impaired in one area ....areextremely gifted in others.

As for the validity of the story I sent, It came from a very reliablesource.  It came from my Uncle Mike Valerio, who is a professionaljournalist  and has a website dedicated to accuracy in the media. http://www.slantedtimes.com/  I know he wouldn't send erroneous information.

Diana

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Message: 6
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:16:54 -0500
  From: "Eric Fetterolf" <fetterof@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Bush...  a Christian...

Hello everyone!  Eagle's are going to win!
Eric

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Message: 7
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:00:35 EST
  From: mgriffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Bush...  a Christian...

In light of what Diane and Carol have shared about GW Bush and in light too
of how, with at least some success, Moon has managed to "wiggle" hiswayinto
the Bush family, appealing to the very convictions that seems to appealto
the hearts of most of us on here, I think we should really keep himandhis
family in prayer.

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Message: 8
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 05:37:42 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: PC/ schools
 

From:  Owen
       Dear
 
HARD MEASURE AS H.S. EJECTS BOY FOR RULER
Saturday,January 6,2001 {NY Post}
 
By ANGELA C. ALLEN
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      AGAINST THE RULE:
     Denise McDonald fumes over son Reginald'ssuspension from a Brooklyn high school - for having a shop-class ruler.
     - NYP: Mary McLoughlin

An outraged Brooklyn mother is demanding answers after her 16-year-old son was booted from class for carrying a "dangerous" weapon - a school-issued metal ruler.
Denise McDonald, a 10-year veteran of the NYPD, said her son Reginaldwassuspended from George Westinghouse HS after a school security guardpattedhim down and found the ruler in his pants pocket.

"I don't understand - how can a ruler be considered a weapon?" McDonald asked. "How is it a weapon if that is what you are selling kids in shopclass?"

"It's unfair," added the 10th-grader, who said the ruler was used only for projects in his optical-vision-care technology class at the schoolnear the Brooklyn Bridge.

"I had to put the ruler on the lenses to measure them."

The teen, who has attended the school for two years, said he couldn'tbelieve it when school officials suddenly declared his ruler a dangerousweapon.

"I said, ?That's a ruler - I'm getting in trouble for a ruler.'"

A Board of Education hearing is set for Thursday. The teen was suspended Jan. 4 after the Dec. 22 incident.

A board spokeswoman declined to comment on the case, saying only thatit was under investigation by Ray Irizarry, superintendent of the Brooklynand Staten Island school district.

"The suspension is being investigated by the superintendent. Once theinvestigation is concluded, we will comment," said spokeswoman Margie Feingold.

McDonald said Westinghouse officials told her they had conducted aninvestigation and decided to place her son on suspension.

But she said the decision is outrageous because her son purchased theruler for a shop class to which he was assigned by school counselors.

"He bought this ruler at the beginning of shop class. I know becauseIhad to give him the money for it," she said.

The class curriculum sheet specifically states that students are required to have a metal ruler that measures millimeters, said McDonald.

"How can you have a student buy something and then suspend them whenthey have it?" she said.

The teen had the ruler with him because he was concerned it might bestolen if he left it in the classroom, said his mother.

"He says things go missing in shop class so he holds it to take to class every day," she said.

For now, the student is going to an educational outreach program pending the outcome of his hearing.

But his mother worries the lost classroom work will hurt him at testtime.

"Take it off his record," McDonald demanded. "I want it like it neverhappened."
 
 

No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 9
  Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 21:13:02 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: Bush...  a Christian...

> In light of what Diane and Carol have shared about GW Bush and in
> light too  of how, with at least some success, Moon has managed to "wiggle"his
> way intothe Bush family, appealing to the very convictions that seems to
> appeal to  the hearts of most of us on here, I think we shouldreally keep him
> and his  family in prayer.
>
I hope that story about Bush is true.  That would be very encouraging
       and hopeful that someone caresthatmuch.
That Bush is like Clinton - I only meant in that "God put him there."
As I said - the scriptures state that "those in power are put there
by God."  So, it's kinda moot to say "God sanctions" the person,etc.
Of course God wouldn't be pleased with the shenanigans of Clinton.
Bush has skeletons too.   No reason to get into it. But theymake
  Hillary's real estate investments pale greatly in comparison.
But we really don't know the whole story, and maybe never will.
        That's the frustrating thing.
As Specter titles his book "The Pursuit of Truth."  Good luck.
   But we should try.
I have, sort of, somewhat of an "insider" perspective.  My dadwas
Frank Rizzo's campaign co-ordinator.  And I would hazard to guess
that everyone is familiar with that name.  It is years ago.
I'm frustrated with politics here in Philly.  I didn't vote forStreet
andI doubt I voted for "America's Mayor" Rendell.  And you'veallheard
his name, too, haven't you?  That's where Irv said the infamous
  "If it affects you, if affects you.  If it doesn't, itdoesn't."
He said that because, like other politicians indiscretions that cost
us much - where was the outcry?  It seems we don't care or feel
we are powerless.  Which is largely true.  (the walk-on partof
       the masses).
Before Rendell was first elected mayor - he was a prosecutor or
something.  He put, and left an innocent man in jail.  AndIrv,for
years said quite often he would NEVER call Ed Rendell "his honor."
He mocked the title.
Because this prosecutor (Rendell) consciously let an innocent rot in
jail.  And guess what?
The man sued the city for 1 million plus dollars and WON because
he was right.  So Ed Rendell let an innocent man rot - (and whatkind
of person does that?!?!?) and he cost us tax payers here in Philly
almost 2 million dollars.
Irv is a 'hands on' guy - and he personally drove to the prison topick
up this individual when they finally released this innocent man.
But Rendell had left him there, because it was more expedient for his
current situation and running for mayor.  A bit of a long storythere,
but indicative of the whole way things are run politically.
       Politics is not a good business.
At least not for an honest person.  But Rizzo sincerely caredabout
  Philadelphia and my dad is a sincere man.
My dad was appointed executive director of the Civic Center in Philly.
Whenever you drive by - and look at those huge pillars on the place,
my dad's spacious office was behind there.

60 Minutes tonight talked about the release of certain documents about
the Taineman square stuff that happened about ten years ago.
The one fellow said he thinks the release of these documents is to
embarrass certain people who are in power now.
Everything is done for a reason - trying to manipulate things -
public opinion - which can be very fickle.
We have our convictions, and we may be right.  But is the information
we are getting right?
Did Bush "witness" to that youth?
Maybe.  Probably.
But is it on the front page of any newspaper?
That's the fickleness of what goes on.
Who can trust?
Not much.
But I suppose we must act on what we do know and that's the best we
can do.
After all, all you can be is faithful to what you know.
No one should ask anything more.
Hey - CK - I guess I have a "fan club."
Thanks for the compliments.
Personally, I don't like Bush.  But I'm glad you all post stufflike
that
story, because that is swaying me.  It's good to hear stuff likethat.
Good, actually, it's great.  Who knows, I may ending up likinghim
very much.
All I'm doing is being faithful to what I know.  And I'm alsoaware
that just because I heard and therefore think something doesn't mean
"stop the presses" and everyone must follow.
I'm glad for all the input we get here.  It can make us all better.
Yes, I thought the Eagles would win too.
BTW, in 1981, when Mayor Green was elected - my dad was out of
a job (the Executive Director to the Civic Center was a politically
appointed job - and Green wanted one of his "cronies" there; even
though Directors of Civic Centers across the country wrote the then
mayor letters of shock that my dad, so competent a director was
disposed.  My dad became vice president of the IAAM - International
Association of Auditorium Managers - which includes Greenland...)
My dad was three weeks out of work - and he was driving me to
work one fateful morning, and he said to me, "Don't EVER get involved
in politics - it all has to do with favors."
That being said, my dad did say also - while he was in this position-
and also in the campaign - no one EVER offered him bribe.
But he had also made it plain at the outset - don't anyone DARE try
and do so.
But politics, and power - it is intoxicating - and a bit of unreality.
I would say that Bush and Gore have really not much knowledge of the
real world being raised in the bubbles they were.
Do I have any argument there?
I mean, when you're in politics, and your regime is in charge, I
remember my dad saying that sometimes it was like the parting
of the waves when you needed something done.  Or, imagine the
political structure of Cobu - if you were a high ranking "squirrel"
etc. - didn't things run more smoothly for you?
Thank you for indulging me a little here.  I would like to addwhat
"inner" knowledge I may have - though you know absolutely it's going
to be with my slant.  But I do have, like all of us in Cobu -don'tyou
think you have a deeper view of Christianity and the Bible having
lived in fellowship like we did?
Not that we're "elite" or better - but doesn't it present us all as
having
a bit - I hesitate to use the word "deeper" - what would it be?
To join what we joined did involve sacrifice and commitment.
We've certainly experienced and survived things that others can't even
touch - wouldn't you say?
My fellow brethren on this list are a rare breed.  A strong breed.
Gee whiz, I think I'll stop typing now..............

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Message: 10
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 22:31:14 EST
  From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Net Zero

Dear friend, My son is interested in finding out how to obtain net zero.
Please tell me what to tell him.  Thank you.  Ed G.
 

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Message: 11
  Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:56:50 -0500
  From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Net Zero

Dear Ed,

It's pretty easy.  Just go to this website...   http://www.netzero.net/
and download & install the software.  All's you need is ausername and password.

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Message: 12
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 00:38:33 EST
  From: ckirbym@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Earth Shakes Under Deb

In a message dated 12/12/2000 8:49:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Symmetor@aol.com writes:

<<  No rules have changed, obtuse woman. >>
 

Ahh now we are speaking plainly as Stew would do!!!!!

CK
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Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 03:44:38 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 537
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Message: 1
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:49:38 EST
  From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Meanings as Estranged Siamese Twins

From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: this goes on to the end

I also don't believe there is a separate sourceof Godly knowledge basedupon
a between the lines approach

From:  Owen
       Dear Steve, Tom, etc
      IMHO a figurative meaning from scripturewould agree with the plain
meaning.  At least it wouldn't contradict it.

Dear Owen:
    If you know that the written code kills, but thatthe spirit gives life;
that the words that Jesus spoke to them were spirit and life, the flesh(the
written code) of the Word being of no avail, doesn't the Truth necessarily
find refuge only 'between the lines'?
    Why do you think that the people of God took offenseat Jesus except
that with respect to 'plain meanings' He contradicted Moses? How doyou
reconcile the fact that "... there they saw the God of Israel..." withthe
fact that "...No one has ever seen God..."; or the commandment that"...You
shall not steal..." with "...I am coming like a thief..."; or an abomination
like cannibalism with the pronouncement, "...Unless you eat the fleshof the
Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you..."? Doesn'ta law
that reads, "No dwarf shall enter the assembly of the Lord", signalon its
very face that real meaning, spiritual meaning, might very well disagreewith
or even contradict superficial meaning?     - Neil
 

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Message: 2
  Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 10:40:13 -0500
  From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Meanings as Estranged Siamese Twins

> "... there they saw the God of Israel..." with the
> fact that "...No one has ever seen God..."; or the commandment that"...You
> shall not steal..." with "...I am coming like a thief...";

The Eagles defense did not allow three teams in the central divisionto
     score a touchdown - including the Packers.
The Eagles defense did not allow a touchdown in their last two games.
Unfortunately the Giants scored two defensive touchdowns - and
Jason Sehorn's interception was a pretty thing to pull off and watch.
       Too bad it was scored againstus...
This could be the first post where I think I understand Neil from start
          to finish. Ithink.  This is a first.
But being told not to steal and coming like a thief are easily reconcilable:
 Just something is going to 'be like' something doesn't mean you're
 guilty of the actual offense.  It's just the best pictureto get across
       what you're saying.
One could say, "I'm going to treat you like the devil."
      Doesn't make that person the devil.
But here again, you have a sentence, that as far as I can see couldbe
     taken two ways:
The one is going to treat the other like he would treat the devil -or
The one is going to treat the other like the devil would handle it.
  It could be taken at least those two ways - and my contentionis
 that the person it was directed to would know which was meant-
especially if it were spoken and the voice inflection - or the spirit
          of the sentimentwere directly present.
Like in this written forum, online, e-mail - etc. the spirit is not
always and readily recognizable and therefore greatly open to
     interpretation.
We do have the promise that the Spirit will guide us into all the truth.
 But we see how much that truth varies from house to house.
   That's the rub, bub.

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Message: 3
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:04:59 -0500
  From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Paul Harvey

Paul Harvey writes.....

We tried so hard to make things better for our kids that we made them
worse.

For my grandchildren; I'd really like for them to know about
hand-me-down clothes and homemade ice cream; and leftover meat loaf
sandwiches. I really would. I hope you learn humility by being humiliated;
and that you learn honesty by being cheated.

I hope you learn to make your own bed and mow the lawn and wash thecar.
And I really hope nobody gives you a brand new car when you are sixteen.

It will be good if at least one time you can see puppies born and your
dog put to sleep. I hope you get a black eye fighting for somethingyou
believe in. I hope you have to share a bedroom with your younger brother.
And it's all right if you have to draw a line down the middle of theroom; but
when he wants to crawl under the covers with you because he's scaredI
hope you let him. When you want to see a movie and your little brother
wants to tag along, I hope you'll let him.

I hope you have to walk uphill to school with your friend and that you live in a
town where you can do it safely. On rainy days when you have to catcha ride,
I hope you don't ask your driver to drop you two blocks away so youwon't
be seen riding with someone as uncool as your Mom.

If you want a slingshot, I hope your Dad teaches you how to make
one instead of buying one. I hope you learn to dig in the dirt andread
books.

When you learn to use computers I hope you also learn to add and
subtract in your head. I hope you get teased by your friends when you
have your first crush on a girl; and when you talk back to your mother
that you learn what Ivory soap tastes like. May you skin your knee
climbing a mountain; burn your hand on a stove and stick your tongue
on a frozen flagpole.

I don't care if you try a beer once; but I hope you don't like it.
And if a friend offers you dope or a joint, I hope you
realize he is not your friend.

I sure hope you make time to sit on a porch with your Grandpa and go
fishing with your Uncle. May you feel sorrow at a funeral and joy duringthe
holidays. I hope your mother punishes you when you throw a baseball
through your neighbor's window and that she hugs you and kisses youat
Christmas time when you give her a plaster mold of your hand.

These things I wish for you--tough times and disappointment; hard work
and happiness. To me, it's the only way to appreciate life. Writtenwith a pen.

Sealed with a kiss. Send this to all of your friends who mean the most
to you. We secure our friends not by accepting favors but by doingthem.

                      -- Paul Harvey...Good Day!
brother ray

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Message: 5
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:24:02 -0500
  From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
Subject: Fw: rat race
 

This puts the rat race into perspective...

An American businessman was at the pier of a small coastal Jamaicanvillage
when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the smallboat were
several large yellowfin tuna.

The American complimented the Jamaican on the quality of his fish andasked
how long it took to catch them.
The Jamaican replied only a little while.
The American then asked why didn't he stay out longer and catch morefish?
The Jamaican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs.
The American then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time?
The Jamaican fisherman said, "Me sleep late, fish a likkle, play widme
pickney, mek love wid me wife, tek a stroll ina de village each evening
where me drink rum and play domino wid me bredren.  Me have afull and busy
life, sah."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should
spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat. Withthe
proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventuallyyou
would have a fleet of fishing boats and instead of selling your catchto a
middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually openingyour
own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution.You
would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move toKingston,
then LA and eventually New York City where you will run your expanding
enterprise."

The Jamaican fisherman asked, "But sah, how long will all dis tek?"
The American replied, "15-20 years."  "Den wha' next me a' do,sah?"
The American smiled, and said "That's the best part. When the timeis right
you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the publicand
become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions, sah?  Den wha'?" asked the Jamaican.
This made the American pause........ then he humbly
replied.................... "Then you would retire, move to a smallcoastal
fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play withyour
kids, make love with your wife, take walks into the village in theevenings
where you could drink rum and play dominoes with your friends.

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Message: 6
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:47:08 -0500
  From: "tledonne" <tledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: Meanings as Estranged Siamese Twins

>      If you know that the written code kills,but that the spirit gives
life;  that the words that Jesus spoke to them were spirit and life, theflesh
(the  written code) of the Word being of no avail, doesn't the Truth necessarily
> find refuge only 'between the lines'?

Neil,
I don't think so.  I think almost anything can be made to fit"between the
lines."  That sounds dangerous to me.  Also, as you said,the "words" that
Jesus spoke to them were spirit and life.  Also is "written code"different
from the the "word"?  There are seemingly contradictions, butI think it's
safest to just say, I don't know but I trust God.  I wouldn'trewrite it,
though, to make it fit.  It's like pulling the threads out ofa tapestry.

Here's a question.  If you are "known" by God, will you "bear"the fruits of
the Spirit?  How about those barren women--Sarah, Rachel, etc--who
eventually bore children but were barren for a time.  Were theyknown by God
before they bore fruit?  Some trees don't produce fruit for along time.
But God knows those who are His, doesn't He?  When our minds becomemud in
our old age and our physical ability to "do" wanes considerably, stillHeis
there and still He loves, doesn't He?

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Message: 7
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:54:05 -0500
  From: "Diana Clarke" <wccm@netzero.net>
Subject: Fw: The Fox Is in the Chicken Coup

The Fox Is in the Chicken Coup

Four years ago, Fox News entered the competition battle among the three TV
networks and CNN cable News which had until that point been monopolizedby
the liberal establishment who allowed no room for traditional thoughtor
balanced and fair reporting for the American TV public.

Since then Fox news has publicly promised that they would report thenews
fairly and balanced while providing the viewer with honest reporting.  The
result has been a steadily improved rating for the Fox Network whilethe
competition has steadily been losing it's viewers. A less arrogantattitude
among some of the networks is also very evident.

NBC has spun off MSNBC cable, to provide a token of more balanced programming
with more conservative voices to balance the more liberal voices that
monopolize their air time.

CNN has also added more conservative voices to their programming while CBS
and ABC lag far behind, but are feeling the competitive pressure whilelosing
viewership.  Thus the American people have been getting more honestreporting
resulting in a more informed electorate.

America owes a debt of gratitude to the Fox network for providing uswith
news that we can trust and allows us to make a more informed and educated
guess when we are faced with the choice of electing our next President,
Senator, Governor or other elected officials.

The Fox has gotten into the chicken Coop and the scrambling among the
networks has now begun, to see if it might be in their best interestto
present the news more honestly and as it actually happens.

The chickens will now have to decide whether they want to survive, and pay
the price of telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but thetruth.

Michael Valerio

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Message: 8
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:49:31 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Bush...  a Christian...

I would say that Bush and Gore have really not much knowledge of thereal world being raised in the bubbles they were.      Do I have any argument there?
From:  Owen
       Dear Tom
      It depends what you mean by the realworld.  If you mean cleaning carpets and fighting in the playground,then I suppose you're right.  But if you mean how the insiders manipulatethings then I suggest that they are the experts on the real world.

       One of my pet peeves:    On Tony Brown's Journal (a TV talk show) the host said to a lady who wasinvolved in social work (or was it a ministry?) "you work with the roughtype of people, you work in the streets, you're in 'the real world' ....".
     I dispute the notion that the homeless, thehoodlums and the parasites are "the real world".  The real world (IMnsHO)consists of those who get up every morning even when they don't feel likeit; who report to the same workplace for the tenth straight year; who takeorders from areal jerk; whose livelihood is dependent on satisfying somecustomer; whopay rent and taxes; who know where their next meal is comingfrom; and havea circle of friends they've known for years (and can counton when troublehits).      I have the impressionthat when theseyoung parasitical punks get in trouble, they call on theirparents or unclesor grandparents who have a regular job and a middle classhouse.
 

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 9
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 20:29:53 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: Meanings as Estranged Siamese Twins

Doesn't a law that reads, "No dwarf shall enterthe assembly of theLord", signal on its very face that real meaning, spiritual meaning, mightvery well disagree with or even contradict superficial meaning?
From:  Owen
       Dear Neil
      Hmmm!
   A) I'm glad I said it was a humble opinion.
   B)It's hard to explain where I was coming from.
   C)But wouldn't you agree that there is some connectionbetween the figurative meaning and the plain meaning?  And if theplain meaning says "don't steal", then the figurative meaning won't say"steal"?
   D)I might have to rephrase it

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
     Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 10
  Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 20:43:45 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Re: God ordains...

Which also means Clinton reigned 8 years because of God.  Is Godreally in charge?
From:  Owen
       Dear Tom
      Here's how I handle it:  God gavefree will to sinners.  Thus sinners will choose to do bad, and theresults will be....(that's right) BAD!  If we vote for a "pot smoking,draftdodging, womanizer", then we'll get higher taxes, reduced security,and x-ratednews broadcasts.  If he vetoed the effects of our freechoices, thenfree will would be meaningless.  Free will is meaningfulbecause thereare consequences to what we do (but not as great as Adam'schoice).
       We put training wheels on bikesto protect kids from their decision to learn to ride a bike.  Buteventually the training wheels are removed and the kids are liable fortheir choices (nohands, wheelies).

those who regard themselves as tolerant need to tolerate those who aren't,
or else they too become intolerant.
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

  ______________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:45:11 MST [Show full headers]
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 538


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Message: 2
  Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:20:25 -0000
  From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Second Meanings

From:  Owen
       Dear Friends
      The following selection is from CS Lewis's book "REFLECTIONS ON THE PSALMS", ch 10 "Second Meanings":
       I must now turn to something farmore difficult.  Hitherto we have been trying to read the Psalms aswe suppose -or I suppose- their poets meant them to be read. But this ofcourse is not the way in which they have chiefly been used by Christians. They have been believed to contain a second or hidden meaning, an "allegorical"sense, concerned with the central truths of Christianity, with the Incarnation,the Passion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and with the Redemption ofman.All the Old Testament has been treated in the same way. The full significance of what the writers are saying is, on this view, apparent only in the light of events which happened after they were dead.
   Such a doctrine, not without reason, arouses deep distrustin a modern mind. Because, as we know, almost anything can be read intoany book if you are determined enough. This will be especially impressedon anyonewho has written fantastic fiction. He will find reviewers, bothfavorableand hostile, reading into his stories all manner of allegoricalmeanings whichhe never intended.  (Some of the allegories thus imposedon my own books*have been so ingenious and interesting that I often wishI had thought ofthem myself.)  Apparently it is impossible for thewit of man to devisea narrative in which the wit of some other man cannot,and with some plausibility,find a hidden sense.
   The field for self-deception, once we accept such methodsofinterpretation, is therefore obviously very wide. Yet in spite of thisI thinkit impossible?for a reason I will give later?to abandon the methodwhollywhen we are dealing, as Christians, with the Bible.

*CS Lewis wrote the Narnia tales and the Perelandra novels

      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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