Subject: Fwd: [sharpen] Digest Number 514
>Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:07:16 -0500
>Charles H. Spurgeon
>Prayer may be salted with confession or perfumed with thanksgiving;
>it may be sung to music or wept out with groanings.
>As many as are the flowers of summer,
>so many are the varieties of prayer.
>You can draw near to God even though you cannot say a word.
>A prayer may be crystallized in a tear.
>A tear is enough water to float a desire to God.
>Never account prayer second to preaching. No doubt prayer in the Christian
>church is as precious as the utterance of the gospel.
>To speak to God for men is a part of the Christian priesthood
>that should never be despised.
>The Christian should work as if all depended on him,
>and pray as if it all depended on God.
>No man can do me a truer kindness in this world
>than to pray for me.
>The more we pray, the more we shall want to pray. The more we pray,the
>morewe can pray. The more we pray, the more we shall pray. He who prays little
>will pray less, but he who prays much will pray more. And he who prays
>more,will desire to pray more abundantly.
>It is a good rule never to look into the face of man in the morning
>till you have looked into the face of God.
>Only that prayer which comes from our heart
>can get to God's heart.
>I believe that when we cannot pray, it is time that we prayed morethan
>And if you answer, "But how can that be?" I would say,
>pray to pray. Pray for prayer. Pray for the spirit of supplication.
>Do not be content to say, "I would pray if I could."
>No, but if you cannot pray, pray till you can.
>I could as soon think of living without eating or
>living without breathing, as living without prayer.
>When a poor man was breaking granite by the roadside, he was downon his
>knees while he gave his blows. A minister passing by said, "Your work is
>justlike mine. You have to break stones, and so do I." "Yes," said the man,
>"andif you managed to break stony hearts, you will have to do it as I do, down
>onyour knees." The man was right. The gospel hammer soon splits flinty hearts
>when a man knows how to pray.
>Every prayer is an inverted promise. That is to say, God promises
>us such a blessing, and therefore we pray for it. If God teaches
>us to pray for any good thing, we may gather by implication
>the assurance that He means to give it.
>Prayer is the autograph of the Holy Ghost upon the renewed heart.
>No prayer will ever prevail with God more surely than a liquid petition,
>which, being distilled from the heart, trickles from the eye and waters the
>cheek. Then is God won when He hears the voice of your weeping.
>To me it is a boundless solace that I live in the prayers of thousands. We
>can do better without the voice that preaches than without
>the heart that prays. The petitions of our bedridden sisters
>are the wealth of the church.
>In prayer the heart of man empties itself before God, and then Christ
>emptieshis heart out to supply the needs of his poor believing child. Inprayer we
>confess to Christ our deficiencies, and he reveals to us his fullness. We
>tellhim our sorrows, he tells us his joys. We tell him our sins, he shows to us
>his righteousness. We tell him the dangers that lie before us, hetells us
>ofthe shield of omnipotence with which he can and will guard us. Prayer talks
>with God; it walks with him. And he who is much in prayer will holdvery
>muchfellowship with Jesus Christ.
>The best style of prayer is that which
>cannot be called anything else but a cry.
>A man scarcely needs to be reminded that he must breathe. It is essential
>tohis very life that he should breathe. And it is essential to our spiritual
>life that we should pray. I never thought it necessary to preparea
>discourseto exhort you to eat, neither ought it to be necessary to exhort Christians
>to pray. It should be to you an instinct of your new nature, as natural to
>your spiritual being as a good appetite is to a man in health. Thereshould
>be a holy hunger and thirst to pray. And the soul never prays so well as
>whenit is reminded, not by the hour of the day or night, but by its real needs,
>and when it resorts to its place of private prayer, not because itthinks
>itought, but because it feels that it must, and shall, and will go there, and
>is delighted at the privilege of having communion with its God.
>I cannot help praying. If I were not allowed to utter a word all daylong,
>that would not affect my praying. If I could not have five minutesthat I
>might spend in prayer by myself, I should pray all the same. Minuteby
>minute, moment by moment, somehow or other, my heart must communewith my
>God. Prayer has become as essential to me as the heaving of my lungsand
>thebeating of my pulse.
>God the Holy Ghost writes our prayers, God the Son presents our prayers,
>andGod the Father accepts our prayers. And with the whole Trinity tohelp us
>init, what cannot prayer perform?
>Message: 2
>    Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:37:39 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
>Subject: Re: Re: Only In America
>I plan to start saving their junk mail and maybe start making someof my
>ownto send them. I might begin an advertising campaign using their post-paid
>envelopes and target the very companies that target me.
>Message: 3
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:42:35 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: A couple of things to note about the last administrationunder
>A couple of things to note about the last administration under Clinton, the
>media won?t tell you this...  Perhaps with Bush being elected,Clinton will
>begin to be exposed after he leaves office...  After two daysin the
>office,Clinton had fired all the federal prosecutors.
>The stock market growth was aided by booting out companies out ofthe Dow
>Jones when they began to lose money.  These 30 companies keptchanging to
>artificially manipulate the stock market, and make the economy appear to be
>doing well.  This was only one of their tricks, the media nevermentions
>about the skyrocketing personal debt.
>I won?t be buying stocks any time soon, a very poor gamble nowadays.
>At one time, the banks had to have 23% cash to back up the people?s
>Now, 1.78% of money the banks must now have under FDIC regs due toClinton.
>The FEMA regulations were changed under Clinton to include man-made
>disasters which therefore include stock market crashes.  Nixon& Carter set
>up FEMA to only include natural disasters.  Martial law can nowbe declared
>for a perceived or manipulated ?disaster?.
>Some of the new job descriptions could fit political operatives.  Anything
>they can do to get around the Constitution, people can be arrestedwithout
>cause or due process if martial law is declared?
>      If that happens, Attorney General Janet Reno becomes Commander of the
>military which is the only body other that the President that candeclare
>the emergency over.
>Nixon would have never envisioned that a president would use FEMAfor
>personal gain or to protect himself from possible criminal prosecution.
>        I will personally feela lot better once Bush is inaugurated on the
>20th of January or thereabouts.
>Message: 4
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:55:04 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: post mortem on the election matter
>Concerning the elections and the media distortions:  It is wellknown that
>Florida state law does not provide for recounts in the situation of
>pregnantor dimpled chads, there was never an election in the state of Floridawhere
>they were counted until this one.  The Gorons kept shouting ?all the votes
>must be counted?, which was echoed in the media.
>If the law said they would be counted, that would have been done ina
>What?s worse is the recounts that did occur were started in areaswhere
>Gorewon by 60-70%, but the recounts were stopped by the Supreme Court before
>thecould get to areas won by Bush, no wonder Gore kept gaining.  Moreover, the
>Florida Supreme Court gave the gains from these unfinished recountsto Gore
>before those counties were completed.
>After Judge N. Sanders Sauls (a democrat) decision that there wasno basis
>for further recounts), the New York Times thought it was fit to runan
>expose on him, in an article bringing up problems in his past
>Gore Attorney David Boies kept saying in the national media that the
>FloridaSupreme Court was the final arbiter in the election matter, when theU.S.
>Constitution provides for the state legislature as the final arbiter.  On
>only one cable network that I noticed was he corrected, the Goronswere
>getting most of the time.
>I would like to see a real investigation into elections, and findout how
>many illegal aliens or dead people voted for Gore...  The electoral college
>did its job, and it was set up by the founders (who knew what theywere
>doing) to give those in smaller states, rural and suburban areas more of a
>voice - not just the big cities.
>It would be most unfortunate if the state of Florida is rememberedas being
>the one with the election problems.
>Message: 6
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:01:17 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: A couple of things to note about the last administration
>under Clinton

>And the proof in the pudding of the complete difference will be theefforts
>to overturn the aforementioned FEMA regulations and the like, right?
>All I can say is, start learning to speak Chinese.  My localrestaurant
>has on the other side of the fortune in the fortune cookie
>"Learn Chinese" - and they present a certain word for you to learn.
>     Start learning.
>       Who is this:
>     "According to rumor (often surfacing in pamphlets), he was insane,
>   weak minded, a hopeless drug-addict who burst into hysterical
>   laughter at press conferences, an impostor ( the realMr. X was in
>   an insane asylum), under treatment by a psychiatristdisguised as a
>   White House footman, and had to be kept in a striaghtjacket most of
>   the time.  He was said to be suffering from an Oedipus
>   somplex, a "Silver Cord complex', heart trouble, leprosy, syphilis,
>   incontinence, impotency, cancer, comas...  He wascalled a Svengali, a
>   Little Ford Fauntleroy, a simpleton, a modern politicalJuliet 'mak-
>   ing love to the people from the White House balcony,'a pledge-
>   breaker, a Communist, tyrant, oath-breaker, fascist,socialist, the
>   Demoralizer, the Panderer, the Violator, the Embezzler,petulant,
>   insolent, rash, ruthless, blundering, a sorcerer, animpostor, callow
>   upstart, shallow autocrat, a man who encouraged swearing and 'low
>   slang' and a ;subjugator of the human spirit.'
>           I wastold that if I voted for this vile Communist,
>this sinister fascist, this scheming and contriving socialist andhis gang
>ofconspirators, I had no longer any right to consider myself an American
>And I've got one for "the other side."
>What are you worried about Janet Reno now for?   There'llbe no
>martial law declared while she's still there!
>Also - ever since - I don't know - was it the 1930's or so - but our
>country has been "under a state of emergency" which means a lot
>of stuff I forgot - but it's just like the stuff you're mentioning.
>It's like saying in the courtroom, "The constitution says...."
>Guess what happens next?
>The judge will tell you flat out that no one is to quote the constitution
>in his courtroom - his law rules.
>It's been happening all the time.
>Also BTW - as sick as the market is - they're a lot more honest than
>they were in the past.  Why people play is beyond me.  Ifyou've
>got "play" money, why not?
>Watch them overturn the FEMA stuff and all - yeah, gimme a break,
>they're all in on it - or they wouldn't be there.  You try anddo things
>that really help the people and you'll end up like MLK & JFK.
>There's more important things in the works!
>Don'tcha just love a conspiracy?
>Message: 7
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:02:54 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: sinking homes in Philly
>by Ramona Smith, Daily News Staff Writer
>Daily News Staff Writer
>They hauled it in bulging trolley cars. They hauled it in wagons.They
>brought it up to North Philadelphia with the full blessing of thecity.
>The unstable ash that has undermined entire blocks of homes alongRoosevelt
>Boulevard was largely dumped there by politically connected companies
>working under a lucrative city contract.
>Special trolleys operated by Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co., a predecessor
>of SEPTA, rolled north on 5th Street loaded with the ash from hundreds of
>Center City coal furnaces in the early 1900s, according to researchby
>historian and trolley expert Harold E. Cox.
>Decades later, when hundreds of Logan families found their homes sinking
>into the ground in the mid-1980s, Cox was not surprised.
>"It was inevitable it was going to happen. I was surprised it tookso
>says Cox, a former assistant professor of history at Temple University and
>now coordinator of graduate studies at Wilkes University in Wilkes-Barre.
>The trolleys ran up 5th Street, night or day, under a city contractwith
>Edwin Vare, one of three brothers who headed a corrupt South Philadelphia
>political machine and reaped most of their construction and waste-handling
>business through municipal contracts.
>Their destination: the 40-foot-deep valley of the Wingohocking Creekunder
>the newly built Boulevard, where a banking business headed by a politically
>connected PRT board member had bought a big patch of land for development.
>PRT was doing the job under subcontract to Vare.
>Cox, who described the location as around 9th Street in a little-known 1971
>book about Philadelphia's nonpassenger trolleys, sometimes refersto the
>area as the "5th Street landfill."
>Now, with some homes in Feltonville south of the Boulevard sinkinglike
>their neighbors in Logan to the north, he says he's not sure whetherthe
>ashtrolleys left their load on one side of the highway or both. And he's not
>certain how far to the east the landfill reached.
>But his account closely matches recent descriptions by the U.S. ArmyCorps
>of Engineers of the ash depths underlying Feltonville and Logan, where 957
>homes have been ripped down and families relocated at a cost of $33
>In a major study released last month, the Army Corps mapped the probable
>depths of fill, sometimes deeper than 40 feet, under a wide swathof
>Feltonville, as well as already recognized areas in Logan.
>The engineers said the deepest layers of ash and other material werefound
>along the bed of the old Wingohocking, long ago rechanneled into sewers.
>That same area was also where homes "are progressively becoming more
>unstable with time," the Army Corps said.
>Water - sometimes from residents' pipes, sometimes from city wateror sewer
>mains - has been a major aggravating factor, the feds said. But water and
>sewer leaks weren't the city's only contribution to the decline ofhomes
>built early in the 20th century.
>Cox's research showed that the city itself supplied much of the underlying
>ash - and did it under municipal contract.
>Back in 1906, prominent banker Clarence Wolf bought about 80 acresnear 9th
>Street and the Boulevard - originally called Torresdale Boulevard,then
>Northeast Boulevard and finally named after Teddy Roosevelt.
>"At this point the boulevard had been built up on an embankment tocarry it
>across the Wingohocking Creek and the North Penn Railroad," Cox saidin his
>book, "and the land was as much as 40 feet below grade, a conditionwhich
>did little to improve its value." (The defunct railroad branch crossed
>underthe Boulevard between 5th and 6th streets in Feltonville.)
>Estimates were that it would take about 500,000 cubic yards of material to
>fill the depression, a job that could have cost $425,000, said Coxin
>"Utility Cars of Philadelphia 1892-1971."
>That's enough fill to load 5,000 of today's biggest trash-hauling
>18-wheelers - and a cost that translates to at least $7.3 milliontoday.
>Wolf "had other ideas," wrote Cox. Ultimately, he received the fillhe
>needed - without having to pay.
>Wolf was an adviser to Mayor John E. Reyburn, who took office as Republican
>mayor in 1907. By the next year, Wolf was named one of the city's
>representatives on the PRT board of directors. (He was also a heavy
>stockholder in the company.)
>Meanwhile, the city - supposedly through a couple of city officialswho had
>once worked for Wolf - set up a new requirement that ash and rubbishpicked
>up in Center City had to be hauled to outlying dumps by trolley, rather
>thanwagon, as in the past.
>Vare received the city contract and paid PRT $10,861 a month to dothe
>hauling, plus half the cost of building special ash cars, Cox said.That
>hauling rate would be about $187,000 a month today.
>And what an operation it was. Horse-drawn wagons first picked up ashand
>rubbish at curbside and hauled it off to a transfer station - firstat 15th
>and Wood streets, then near Race and Marvine and later near Sedgleyand
>Lehigh. The horses, aided by tow ropes, hauled the wagons up rampsto the
>second floor and the trash was dumped down into the specially-built
>The "ash cars" had swing-out side doors and floors that sloped downtoward
>the outside, the better to unload the refuse.
>"They're calling this ash," says Cox. "There was all kinds of stuffmixed
>upin there. . .It was everything that was collected, just dumped together."
>The trolleys then rolled up the path of the old Route 50 street car(now
>bus) to around Wyoming Avenue, where they headed off to the landfill. The
>exact route and boundaries of the landfill are unclear. "They built
>temporary tracks out into the dump," Cox said, and moved them aroundwhere
>they needed them.
>Some wagon hauling resumed in 1912 and Vare converted entirely towagons in
>1915. PRT also hauled ashes for private firms - possibly to the same
>dumpinggrounds. Wagons from private companies may have dumped their refuse at the
>landfill, too.
>The trolleys, after their Boulevard job, also dumped fill off SouthBroad
>Street near Hartranft, where Vare Brothers was building "Southern
>Boulevard"- the south end of Broad, Cox said. The site was around the currentNaval
>Hospital property, where PRT owned a plot of marsh that it considered using
>for a car barn.
>Later, ash trolleys were revived to fill in part of the east end of"League
>Island Park" (FDR Park) in 1917 and 1918.
>The pols got what they wanted from the boulevard landfill operation.Wolf,
>afuture state senator, got the fill to build up his property. Vareand PRT
>got their contracted money.
>So who could lose? Only the people along the way who protested whenash
>trollies blocked their way at rush hour or complained when the noisy
>clunkers moved at night.
>And the people who later lived in homes built on unstable ground.
>For 14 years, people across Philadelphia have known that parts ofthe area
>around 9th and the Boulevard were sinking into poorly compacted ash.But no
>specific explanation has been made of how the ash got there or whomade it
>"No idea in the world," one former Streets Department official said.
>"It didn't really have any particular interest to us, who did it,"said
>Wayne Lippincott, CEO of Lippincott Engineering, which did major studies of
>sinking in Logan in 1986 and 1987. ". . . We were addressing 'here'swhat's
>there' and 'here are some possible measures to deal with it.' "
>Lippincott and another source had heard that a regular railroad linewent
>through the area, possibly up on a trestle, with trains dumping ashand
>cinders out of bottom-dump cars.
>"I think at the time they did use light rail lines to haul some ofthis
>Army Corps project director Joe Nowak told the Daily News recently."It
>could have come from everywhere, factories and homes and railroads,we're
>not sure."
>As residents of the Wissinoming neighborhood learned abruptly lastyear,
>theLogan-Feltonville area isn't the only place in Philly to be builton
>unstable ash.
>"This was not something new when they built the Boulevard," says Cox.
>"Philadelphia is full of buried creeks . . . Philadelphia is builton
>The city has had a history of other sinking neighborhoods.
>In Wissinoming, 30 collapsing rowhouses were torn down last year along the
>buried Wissinoming Creek. Residents were forced to move out undershort
>notice. The city spent more than $2 million to buy them out and clear the
>In West Philadelphia, the buried Mill Creek killed three people when
>severalrowhouses collapsed into a 350-foot sinkhole in the 1960s. The cityrazed
>115 homes and rebuilt the sewer carrying the rerouted creek.
>In Wynnefield, 78 homes were narrowly rescued from sinking into ashand
>cinders two blocks from Mill Creek in 1995 and 1996. Five were demolished.
>In Roxborough, the owners of 11 homes sliding on ash were relocatedby the
>city at a cost of $550,000 in 1991.
>Last month, the Army Corps suggested city officials should take amore
>proactive stance in preventing further disasters in Feltonville,
>Wissinomingand other areas near long-buried creeks.
>Even in the 1950s and 1960s, chunkier charred junk from the city'sown
>wasteincinerators was jettisoned in spots all over the city, one former Streets
>Department official said. "There were dozens and dozens of sites,"he said
>-usually in places where developers were eager to fill in a hole andbuild.
>But once the residue was on private property, he maintained, the city had
>noresponsibility for its condition. The former official said it's the
>responsibility of builders and developers to make sure they have asound
>place to build.
>Coal ash can be safely used as fill as long as it's well compacted,experts
>for the Army Corps of Engineers said when they completed reports onthe
>Wissinoming and Feltonville situations last month. The problem was,that
>didn't happen in either neighborhood.
>Instead, as Philadelphia grew in the early 1900s, the land was oftenfilled
>with poorly compacted ash, cinders and construction waste that theArmy
>Corps said "would be considered unacceptable" today.
>Along the Boulevard, property owner Wolf appeared to be receivingan extra
>benefit, Cox wrote, when city firemen rushed in to extinguish frequent dump
>fires on his 80 acres "and, incidentally, to help compact the fill."
>But decades later, the historian joins in the obvious verdict: That
>compacting job just was "not good enough."

>Message: 9
>    Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:50:59 -0000
>    From: "Owen D Camp" <>
>Subject: Re: Only In America
>From:  Owen
>         Dear Ray
>        Even better send them atract.
>Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
>        Owen Camp   Cairo  NY
>Message: 10
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:48:05 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: sinking homes in Philly
> > by Ramona Smith, Daily News Staff Writer
> > Daily News Staff Writer

> > They hauled it in bulging trolley cars. They hauled it in wagons. They
> > brought it up to North Philadelphia with the full blessing of the city.
>I can't believe you posted this - I mean - I felt like doing the same -
>      Did you see the accompanying articleon the next page or so?
>  It was about the political family that had a lot of power during this
>time andwas in on this dumping - for one.
>The one guy ran for a Senate seat and they didn't want to give itto him.
>From what I remember from the article - they wouldn't let him takethe
>chair and investigated for two years while he waited.
>I forget if they turned anything up or not - but they just summarized that
>therehad to be something rotten and put an end to it saying, finally aftertwo
>yearsyou can't havethe seat, ya crook!
>Did you see that article?  And I think there may have even beenanother.
>    This family had a lot of political clout from about1900 till the
>And we're paying for part of it now.   (although the onefellow was very
>       surprised the houses didn't startsinking a whole lot
>BTW - they knew the voting was crooked, so the article goes.  Some of the
>stuff they are still using in Florida today was 30 years old whenthis
>crook wasrunning in the 1930's.  The voting machine I use here in Phillyis very
>very old
>I think - but I don't they have any problems with them.  Anywhere in the
>    country where they're using stuff that isn't upto snuff -  they should
>        update their stuff - especiallyif it's a hundred years old!
> >  The unstable ash that has undermined entire blocks of homes along
>Roosevelt  Boulevard was largely dumped there by politically connected companies
> > working under a lucrative city contract.
>Message: 11
>    Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:59:01 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: Only In America

>If you really want to put a stop to junk mail - just ask your postman or
>localpostmaster - there's a place you can write and you're supposed to be taken
>off of the lists.  It's sort of like phone soliciting - onceyou tell them
>"don'tcall &something else" - I forget what it is - but if they call again youcan sue
>themfor harassment once you've told them you don't want them to call.  There is
>a program set up for people who are sick of junk mail.  I don'tknow how it  works- but it's supposed to work.
>But on the advertisers side - my brother told me - you send out amillion
>pieces  and 1% responds - that's 10,000replies.
>           And ifit's a buck a reply that the customer sends you back,and your mailing cost $1,000 - you just made $9,000.
>Also - as opposed to an ad in the paper, magazine, TV, radio - youdon't know  what return you're getting foryour investment - really.
>But with direct mail - if they send the coupon or whatever - you'llknow (they'll know) - they'll know exactly what return they got for their
>investmentin advertising via mail.  It's the most "honest" way.  Orthe most reliable
>in who's really biting.
>Hey - want to invest some money?
>Send me $100 - and I will guarantee - and this is because I know you-
>I will guarantee anyone who makes this investment a 50% return.
>Yes, that's right, 50%!  Do you know anyone else who would guarantee such
>       a large return?   Idon't think so!
>So don't delay - send today.  You'll be glad you did!
>      50% return - and I'm not kidding...

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 515
>Date: 17 Dec 2000 09:58:07 -0000

>Message: 3
>    Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:27:28 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Mencken and Roosevelt
>Tom Pierron wrote:
>      I'd like to pass along the attack onRoosevelt by Mencken - -
>H.L. Mencken said Theodore Roosevelt (not Hoover's "friend") was
>"blatant, crude, overly confidential, devious, tyrannical, vainglorious and
>sometimes quite childish."  Of course all those don't apply toNeil,
>thank God, but......
>Neil writes:
>      If the universe of our discourse isto be divided between Mencken and
>Teddy Roosevelt, you may inherit with the witty scoundrel Menckenif you
>prefer; I will inherit with Teddy.   - NP
>Message: 4
>    Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:00:53 -0000
>    From: "Owen D Camp" <>
>Subject: Re: sinking homes in Philly
>From:  Owen
>         Dear Tom
>        Houses built on sand.  Literally!
>Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
>        Owen Camp   Cairo  NY
>Message: 5
>    Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:12:45 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Born Blind
>what a minute - it does ask,
>"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?"
>In that translation the inference still is the possibility that somehow
>thisman sinned before he was.....   There's some things I justdon't get.
>Maybe Neil can explain it in simple terms I can understand.
>Neil writes:
>      At first these words might look liketrees walking:
>      Superficially, they understood whatso many modern Christians do not:
>that to humble and to discipline God prepays, independent as He isof time.
>But the issue portrayed is the spiritual blindness with which some
>Christiansare beset from 'new birth' itself, leaving open the question as towhether
>perhaps the Lord would leave a convert incapable of grasping even
>fundamentals for the sake of sin committed 'before he was born' anew, or
>sinthat he would inevitably commit as a Christian.  Although itis well known
>through the psalmist that because of sin Christians' spiritual
>understandingis darkened, in some cases it is not that a  Christian had sinnedbefore or
>after his new birth, or that those who had led him to the Lord hadsomehow
>communicated sin, but that the exclusive prerogative of the Lord toreveal
>things might be demonstrated in him.   - NP


>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 516
>Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:25:38 -0000


>Message: 4
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:23:16 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <>
>(Author unknown)
>Whereas, on or about the night prior to Christmas, there did occurat a
>certain improved piece of real property (hereinafter "the House")a general
>lack of stirring by all creatures therein, including, but not limited to a
>A variety of foot apparel, e.g., stocking, socks, etc., had been affixed by
>and around the chimney in said House in the hope and/or belief thatSt.
>Nick a/k/a/ St. Nicholas a/k/a/ Santa Claus (hereinafter "Claus")would
>arrive at sometime thereafter. The minor residents, i.e. the children, of
>the aforementioned House were located in their individual beds andwere
>engaged in nocturnal hallucinations, i.e. dreams, wherein vision of
>confectionery treats, including, but not limited to, candies, nutsand/or
>sugar plums, did dance, cavort and otherwise appear in said dreams.
>Whereupon the party of the first part (sometimes hereinafter referred to as
>("I"), being the joint-owner in fee simple of the House with the party of
>the second part (hereinafter "Mamma"), and said Mamma had retiredfor a
>sustained period of sleep. (At such time, the parties were clad invarious
>forms of headgear, e.g., kerchief and cap.
>Suddenly, and without prior notice or warning, there did occur uponthe
>unimproved real property adjacent and appurtenant to said House, i.e., the
>lawn, a certain disruption of unknown nature, cause and/or circumstance.
>The party of the first part did immediately rush to a window in theHouse
>to investigate the cause of such disturbance.
>At that time, the party of the first part did observe, with some degree of
>wonder and/or disbelief, a miniature sleigh (hereinafter "the Vehicle")
>being pulled and/or drawn very rapidly through the air by approximately
>eight (8) reindeer. The driver of the Vehicle appeared to be and infact
>was, the previously referenced Claus.
>Said Claus was providing specific direction, instruction and guidance to
>the approximately eight (8) reindeer and specifically identified theanimal
>co-conspirators by name: Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid,
>Donner and Blitzen (hereinafter "the Deer"). (Upon information andbelief,
>it is further asserted that an additional co- conspirator named "Rudolph"
>may have been involved.)
>The party of the first part witnessed Claus, the Vehicle and the Deer
>intentionally and willfully trespass upon the roofs of several residences
>located adjacent to and in the vicinity of the House, and noted thatthe
>Vehicle was heavily laden with packages, toys and other items of unknown
>origin or nature. Suddenly, without prior invitation or permission,either
>express or implied, the Vehicle arrived at the House, and Claus entered
>said House via the chimney.
>Said Claus was clad in a red fur suit, which was partially coveredwith
>residue from the chimney, and he carried a large sack containing aportion
>of the aforementioned packages, toys, and other unknown items. Hewas
>smoking what appeared to be tobacco in a small pipe in blatant violation of
>local ordinances and health regulations.
>Claus did not speak, but immediately began to fill the stocking ofthe
>minor children, which hung adjacent to the chimney, with toys andother
>small gifts. (Said items did not, however, constitute "gifts" to said minor
>pursuant to the applicable provisions of the U.S. Tax Code.)
>Upon completion of such task, Claus touched the side of his nose andflew,
>rose and/or ascended up the chimney of the House to the roof wherethe
>Vehicle and Deer waited and/or served as "lookouts." Claus immediately
>departed for an unknown destination.
>However, prior to the departure of the Vehicle, Deer and Claus fromsaid
>House, the party of the first part did hear Claus state and/or exclaim:
>"Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!" Or words to thateffect.
>Message: 5
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:26:34 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: sinking homes in Philly
>TOM  wrote  -
>Did you see the accompanying article on the next page or so?  It was about
>the political family that had a lot of power during this time andwas in on
>this dumping - for one.  The one guy ran for a Senate seat andthey didn't
>want to give it to him.  From what I remember from the article- they
>wouldn't let him take the chair and investigated for two years whilehe
>waited. I forget if they turned anything up or not - but they just
>summarized that there had to be something rotten and put an end toit
>saying, finally after two years - you can't have the seat, ya crook!  Did
>you see that article?
>MARK  writes  -
>No, Tom, I didn?t see that article.  The article I posted actually came to
>me by email, and for me this was job related (though I am on the marine
>side) as I have worked with the project engineer they interviewedfor a
>number of years.  I found the historical perspective of the article
>interesting, and I had been unfamiliar with the political aspectsof that
>situation but not surprised.
>Message: 8
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:08:21 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: President Elect
>In a message dated 12/18/2000 6:46:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> writes:
> > I think Bush is showing his "true" colors already by hiring
> > 2 blacks(1m/1f), 1 hispanic, and a woman for top posts.
> >
>That's actually the first thing I agree with you about on this "Bush"
>thing,but in a different way.  Most minorities know to stay out ofthe 'bushes',
>and that the president (supposedly) elect is just trying to kiss butt with
>those choices that he made to hire those "tokens".
>Message: 11
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:45:26 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense--the power of a name
>we made it and i've been so busy that i forgot to get my mail forfour
>days now.  thank you so much for praying.  i got there inthe beginning
>of the storm and managed to get back before the next one hit here.  God
>is good all the time.       love,  ellen
>Message: 12
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:53:12 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: Jn 9 and such...

> >But that does explain - what a minute - it does ask,
> >"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?"
> >In that translation the inference still is the possibility that
> >somehow thisman sinned before he was.....   There's some things Ijust don't get.
> >
>i think that is referring back to Exodus.  God told them thatif they
>didn't follow Him as they should that their sins would visit their
>children and they did.  Jesus' death on the cross turned backthe curse
>over those who accepted Him.  It is an interesting subject---not my
>favorite by any means but interesting.  When I think of a placewhere it
>is covered well, I'll share it with you.  mind is blank
>tonight.           ellen
>Message: 13
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:07:22 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: Born Blind
>they weren't referring to sin committed before he was born anew.  they
>were asking about sin commited before he was physically born.   ellen

>Message: 14
>    Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:33:33 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
>Subject: Re: President Elect
>I totally disagree. I think Mr Bush made a monumental move in
>hiring Colin Powell as secretary of state. I only wish Colin Powell
>would have run for president. He is a hero in many of Americas
>eyes and hearts, an outspoken individual not to mention the first
>Afro-American SoS. No token here, watch the terrorist criminals
>run and hide. Keep your eye on the whip, it is about to crack!
>Mr President elect may have made some off color remarks for the
>camera and was caught drunk a few years ago, but hey I could possibly
>be caught with a slip of the tongue and had been drunk several years
>ago and yup I too inhaled every time. That was then....
>I think the right man got the job.
>I don't know how righteous GWB is but,
>Remember when the wicked rule the people perish
>When the righteous rule the people rejoice.
>brother ray
>Message: 15
>    Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 03:48:58 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
>Subject: virus
>Brethren and Sistern,
>Beware of yet another e-mail virus appearing as an attachment.
>Anything about the Seven Dwarfs and Snow White delete on sight.
>It might carry an attachment and might also come from a name
>I received it and tried to open the file, but it was an unrecognized
>format and I don't think I got the virus, but I did send a reply tothe
>e-mail address and I received and auto-response from
>explaining that they were combatting this virus.
>brother ray
>Also if you have encountered the kak virus which is spreading itself
>around the planet, it is another worm varient. You can usually
>find it with the registry editor from....C:\Windows\regedit.exe

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 517
>Date: 20 Dec 2000 13:52:12 -0000

>Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:03:01 -0500
>    From: "Walker, Michael S, PERSCOM" <>
>Subject: George Bush testimony...
>From George W. Bush when asked about his religious faith:
>"Actually, the seeds of my decision had been planted the year before, by
>theReverend Billy Graham.  He visited my family for a summer weekend in Maine.
>I saw him preach at the small summer church, St.  Ann's by theSea.  We all
>had lunch on the patio overlooking the ocean.  One evening mydad asked
>Billy to answer questions from a big group of family gathered forthe
>He sat by the fire and talked. And what he said sparked a change inmy
>heart.  I don't remember the exact words.  It was more thepower of his
>example.  The Lord was so clearly reflected in  his gentleand loving
>The next day we walked and talked at Walker's Point, and I knew Iwas in
>thepresence of a great man.  He was like a magnet; I felt drawnto seek
>something different.
>He didn't lecture or admonish; he shared warmth and concern.  Billy Graham
>didn't make you feel guilty; he made you feel loved.
>Over the course of that weekend, Reverend Graham planted a mustardseeding
>mysoul, a seed that grew over the next year.  He led me to thepath, and I
>began walking.  It was the beginning of a change in my life.  I had always
>been a "religious" person, had regularly attended church, even taught
>SundaySchool and served as an altar boy. But that weekend my faith took on a new
>meaning.  It was the beginning of a new walk where I would commit my heart
>toJesus Christ.I was humbled to learn that God sent His Son to die for a sinner likeme.
>Iwas comforted to know that through the Son, I could find God's amazing
>grace, a grace that crosses every border, every barrier and is opento
>everyone. Through the love of Christ's life, I could understand thelife
>changing powers of faith.
>When I returned to Midland, I began reading the Bible regularly.  Don Evans
>talked me into joining him and another friend, Don Jones, at a men's
>community Bible study.  The group had first assembled the yearbefore, in
>Spring of 1984, at the beginning of the downturn in the energy industry.
>Midland was hurting. A lot of people were looking for comfort andstrength
>and direction.  A couple of men started the Bible study as asupport group,
>and it grew.  By the time I began attending, in the fall of 1985, almost
>120men would gather.  We met in small discussion groups of ten or twelve, then
>joined the larger group for full meetings.
>Don Jones picked me up every week for the meetings.  I rememberlooking
>forward to them.  My interest in reading the Bible grew stronger and
>stronger, and the words became clearer and more meaningful.  We studied
>Acts, the story of the Apostles building the Christian Church, andnext
>year, the Gospel of Luke.  The preparation for each meeting took several
>hours, reading the Scripture passages and thinking through responsesto
>discussion questions.  I took it seriously, with my usual touchof
>Laura and I were active members of the First Methodist Church of Midland,
>and we participated in many family programs, including James Dobson's Focus
>on the Family series on raising children.  As I studied and learned,
>Scripture took on greater meaning, and gained confidence and understanding
>in my faith.  I read the Bible regularly.  Don Evans gaveme the "one-year"
>Bible, a Bible divided into 365 daily readings, each one includinga
>sectionfrom the New Testament, the Old Testament, Psalms, and Proverbs.  I read
>through thatBible every other year.  During the years in between, I pickdifferent
>chapters to study at different times.
>I have also learned the power of prayer.  I pray for guidance.  I do not
>pray for earthly things, but for heavenly things, for wisdom and patience
>and understanding. My faith gives me focus and perspective.  It teaches
>humility.  But I also recognize that faith can be misinterpreted in the
>political process.  Faith is an important part of my life.  I believe it is
>important to live my faith, not flaunt it.
>America is a great country because of our religious freedoms.  It is
>important for any leader to respect the faith of others.  Thatpoint was
>driven home when Laura and I visited Israel in 1998.  We hadtraveled to
>Rome to spend Thanksgiving  with our daughter, who was attending a school
>program there, and spent three days in Israel on the way home.
>It was an incredible experience.  I remember waking up at theJerusalem
>Hilton and opening the curtains and seeing the Old City before us,the
>Jerusalem stone glowing gold.  We visited the Western Wall andthe Church
>ofthe Holy Sepulcher.  And we went to the Sea of Galilee and stood atop the
>hill where Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount. It was an overwhelming
>feeling to stand in the spot where the most famous speech in the history of
>the world was delivered, the spot where Jesus outlined the characterand
>conduct of a believer and gave his disciples and the world the beatitudes,
>the golden rule, and the Lord's Prayer.
>Our delegation included four gentile governors-one Methodist, two
>Catholics,and a Mormon, and several Jewish-American friends.  Someone suggestedwe
>read Scripture.  I chose to read "Amazing Grace," my favoritehymn.  Later
>that night we all gathered at a restaurant in Tel Aviv for dinnerbefore we
>boarded our middle-of-night flight back to America.  We talkedabout the
>wonderful experiences and thanked the guides and government officials who
>hadintroduced us to their country.
>And toward the end of the meal, one of our friends rose to share astory,
>totell us how he, a gentile, and his friend, a Jew, had (unbeknownstto the
>rest of us) walked down to the Sea of Galilee, joined hands underwater, and
>prayed together, on bended knee.  Then out of his mouth camea hymn he had
>known as a child, a hymn he hadn't thought about in years.  Hegot every
>Now is the time approaching, by prophets long foretold, when all shall
>dwelltogether, One Shepherd and one fold.  Now Jew and gentile, meeting,from
>many a distant shore, around an altar kneeling, one common Lord.
>Faith changes lives.  I know, because faith has changed mine."
>I could not be governor if I did not believe in a divine plan that
>supersedes all human plans.  Politics is a fickle business.  Polls change.
>Today's friend is tomorrow's adversary.  People lavish praiseand
>Many times it is genuine; sometimes it is not.  Yet I build mylife on a
>foundation that will not shift.  My faith frees me.  Freesme to put the
>problem of the moment in proper perspective. Frees me to make decisions
>thatothers might not like. Frees me to try to do the right thing, even though
>itmay not poll well...  The death penalty is a difficult issuefor supporters
>as well as its opponents.  I have a reverence for life; my faith teaches
>that life is a gift from our Creator.  In a perfect world, lifeis given by
>God and only taken by God.  I hope someday our society will respect life,
>the full spectrum of life, from the unborn to the elderly.  Ihope someday
>unborn children will be protected by law and welcomed in life.  I support
>the death penalty because I believe, if administered swiftly and justly,
>capital punishment is a deterrent against future violence and willsave
>other innocent lives. Some advocates of life will challenge why Ioppose
>abortion yet support the death penalty.  To me, it's the difference between
>innocence and guilt.
>Today, two weeks after Jeb's inauguration, in my church in downtownAustin,
>Pastor Mark Craig, was telling me that my re-election was the first
>Governorto win back-to-back, four-year terms in the history of the State ofTexas.
>It was a beginning, not an end....  People are starved for faithfulness.
>Hetalked of the need for honesty in government.  He warned thatleaders who
>cheat on their wives will cheat their country, will cheat their colleagues,
>will cheat themselves.
>Pastor Craig said that America is starved for honest leaders.  He told the
>story of Moses, asked by God to lead his people to a land of milkand
>honey.Moses had a lot of reasons to shirk the task.  As the Pastor told it,
>Moses' basic reaction was, "Sorry, God, I'm busy.  I've got afamily.  I've
>got sheepto tend.  I've got a life.  "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh,
>and bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?
>  The people won't believe me, he protested.  I'm not avery good speaker.
>Oh, my Lord, send, I pray, some other person," Moses pleaded.  But God did
>not, and Moses ultimately did His bidding, leading his people through forty
>years of wilderness and wandering, relying on God for strength and
>directionand inspiration.
>"People are starved for leadership, "Pastor Craig said, "starved for
>leaderswho have ethical and moral courage."
>"It is not enough to have an ethical compass to know right from wrong," he
>argued. "America needs leaders who have the moral courage to do whatis
>right for the rightreason.  It's not always easy or convenientfor leaders
>to step forward," he acknowledged.  "Remember, even Moses haddoubts."
>"He was talking to you," my mother later said.  The pastor was,of course,
>talking to all of us, challenging each one of us to make the mostof our
>lives, to assume the mantle of leadership and responsibility wherever we
>find it.  He was calling on us to use whatever power we have,in business,
>in politics, in our communities, and in our families, to do good forthe
>right reason.  And his sermon spoke directly to my heart andmy life....
>There was no magic moment of decision.  After talking with myfamily during
>the Christmas holidays, then hearing this rousing sermon, to makemost of
>every moment, during my inaugural church service, I gradually feltmore
>comfortable with the prospect of a presidential campaign. My familywould
>love me, my faith would sustain me, no matter what. "During the morethan
>half century of my life, we have seen an unprecedented decay
>in our American culture, a decay that has eroded the foundations ofour
>collective values and moral standards of conduct.
>Our sense of personal responsibility has declined dramatically, justas the
>role and responsibility of the federal government have increased.  The
>changing culture blurred the sharp contrast between right and wrongand
>created a new standard of conduct: 'If it feels good, do it.' And'If
>you'vegot a problem, blame somebody else'." "Individuals are not responsible for
>their actions," the new culture has said. "We are all victims of forces
>beyond our control." We have gone from a culture of sacrifice andsaving to
>aculture obsessed with grabbing all the gusto.
>We went from accepting responsibility to assigning blame.  Asgovernment
>didmore and more, individuals were required to do less and less.  The new
>culture said: if people were poor, the government should feed them.  If
>someone had no house, the government should provide one.  Ifcriminals are
>not responsible for their acts, then the answers are not prisons,but
>socialprograms....  "For our culture to change, it must change one heart, one
>soul,and one conscience at a time.
>Government can spend money, but it cannot put hope in our hearts ora sense
>of purpose in our lives."...  "But government should welcomethe active
>involvement of people who are following a religious imperative tolove
>theirneighbors through after school programs, child care, drug treatment,
>maternity group homes, and a range of other services.  Supporting these men
>and women - the soldiers in the armies of compassion is the next bold step
>ofwelfare reform, because I know that changing hearts will change our entire
>"During the opening months of my presidential campaign, I have traveled our
>country and my heart has been warmed.  My experiences have reinvigorated my
>faith in the greatness of Americans.  They have reminded me that  societies
>are renewed from the bottom up, not the top down.  EverywhereI go, I see
>people of love and faith, taking time to help a neighbor in need...  These
>people and thousands like them are the heart and soul and greatnessof
>America.  And I want to do my part.  I am running for President because I
>believe America must seize this moment, America must lead.  Wemust give
>ourprosperity a greater purpose, a purpose of peace and freedom and hope.
>We are a great nation of good and loving people.  And together,we have a
>charge to keep."

>Message: 6
>    Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:07:55 -0000
>    From: "Owen D Camp" <>
>Subject: catholic bashing?
>From:  Owen
>         Dear All
>        These letters appearedin today's NY Post:
>Sunday,December 17,2000
>What's wrong with this picture? Twice married Tommy Mottola gets married
>for a third time by a Catholic priest - a monsignor, no less - inSt.
>Patrick's Cathedral ("It's a Sony matrimony as Mottola weds songbird," Dec.
>What hypocrisy. Devout Catholics who actually believe in their religion
>have trouble getting an annulment. But celebrities who have grownrich by
>polluting the culture with their immorality get top-of-the-line treatment.
>It's no wonder the Catholic Church gets so little respect. What'snext,
>renting out St. Patrick's for a Rolling Stones rock concert?
>Emelia Santiago
>Chester, N.J.
>As a Roman Catholic, I find it hard to believe that Tommy Mottolagot
>married in a Catholic church. He was married twice before, and I don't
>think it is fair. If the rules are changed for him, then it shouldbe that
>way for everyone else. He is no better than anyone just because heis a
>music mogul. I guess the church can be bought.
>Ellen Taylor
>Hoboken, N.J.
>Tommy Mottola gets married in St. Pat's? I thought it was just the
>liberal-dominated institutions that turned a blind eye and applieddouble
>standards to benefit those with a lot of money. It would seem thechurch
>has joined the rush. Pity.
>P. Andre
>Staten Island

>Message: 8
>    Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:15:47 -0000
>    From: "Owen D Camp" <>
>Subject: Powell & Bush
>From:  Owen
>         Dear All
>        Powell is a CFR (Councilon Foreign Relations) member, the last 11
>administrations (whether Republocrat or Demolican) were chock fullof CFR
>members.  And Bush the younger will (no doubt) also appoint CFRmembers.
>         While I'm glad thatthe manual recounts were stopped.  I'm not
>really enthused by Bush.  I think that if he was a true believer he would
>not have used a profanity so easily.  (He wasn't under pressure.)  When
>asked who his favorite political philosopher was, he said "Jesus Christ".
>I would not have answered thus.  Even though I am convinced that He wants
>me to be a conservative.
>No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
>        Owen Camp   Cairo  NY
>Message: 9
>    Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:15:34 -0000
>    From: "Owen D Camp" <>
>Subject: Cath...
>From:  Owen
>         Dear All
>        I had not intended to sendthat previous post titled "catholic
>bashing?".  I thought I had saved it in my DRAFTS folder.  I was going to
>ask somebody's opinion on sensitivity.  Gotta be more careful!
>No one ever sat their way to success except a hen
>        Owen Camp   Cairo  NY

>Message: 10
>    Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:18:07 -0500 (EST)
>    From:
>Subject: Re: Re: becoming Catholic, Roman, whatever
>Hi everyone,
>  I wanted to wish everyone Happy Holidays full of love and joy. Merry
>Message: 11
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:29:30 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: Powell & Bush
> > From:  Owen
> >         Dear All
> >        Powell is a CFR (Councilon Foreign Relations) member, the last
> > 11 administrations (whether Republocrat or Demolican) were chock full
> > of CFR members.  And Bush the younger will (no doubt) also appoint CFR
> > members.
>And did you catch Bush and Greenspan emerging from their one hour
>Bush pats Greenspan on the back, and trying to act "presidential"says
>he has  full "confidence" in Greenspan.
>Greenspan - and you can't plan these reactions - turns around andlaughs
at Bush - and you can see it in his expression, "Why Georgy Porgy,
>tanks!"And under his breath he's thinking, "I was running this country whenyou
were in diapers ya littletwit!!"
>       Colin Powell afraid of beingshot?
>             You buy that?
>There are secret service whose job is to dive in front
>of bullets en route to the President.  That's their job
>and their lively hood.  Could be a dead end job, though.
>Anyway - Colin Powell dons the uniform, - did he see
>combat?  He's certainly been on foreign soil  serving thiscountry
>- so he has no problem abroad serving his country - but here
>at home, now  he's now afraid of a bullet.
>         Not so, my friend.
>It has more to do with what they put you through these days
>to get to the Presidency.  The hazing has taken on all new
>They'll find out he "went all the way" with some girl in
>college.  He violated curfew once in college and once again
>in boot camp.  Establishing a pattern. Is this someone
>worthy of the integrity of the office?
>         You get the picture.
>I was reading today, and it was news to me - about Eisenhower.
>He WANTED people to think he was "slow" and just wanted to play
>golf.  He even had his closest advisors fooled.  That'show
>seriously he took his office.  He conducted the all important
>business of running this country, the economy and the world
>stage very seriously having had been in Europe and seen first
>hand what the communist - not got away with, pre se - but what
>         America was so stupidto let happen.
>Eisenhower wasn't going to let that happen again - and upon
>looking at his record - his work schedule - the meetings no one
>knew about - his phone records - this President worked harder
>than any of them - according to what I've read in this book
>I'm reading.  Playing "dumb" played into really getting things
>            done.
>One case in point - he's the only other President besides Nixon
>who GOT US OUT of a war (Korea).  Eisenhower knew the futilityof
>it and also strongly advised - and had he remained President -
>         would have kept usout of Viet Nam.
>But anyway - I say Colin Powel is a man of integrity who is
>too good for the office.  He would probably try and really get
>good things done - but Eisenhower would have a tougher time
>    getting by the scrutiny we put our officials through- (hey,
>maybe they need it!).  And as I've said before - those that
>really try and get good things done end up like MLK & JFK.
>Also - Powel doesn't want the world to know another woman
>       had his daughter who is now atennis pro.
>Message: 13
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:13:42 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
>Subject: cracked
>Subject: A Good Thought
>   A water bearer in India had two large pots, each hungon an end of a
>pole  which he carried across his neck. One of the pots hada crack in it,
>while  the other pot was perfect and delivered a full portionof water at the
>end  of the long walk from the stream to the master's house.The cracked pot
arrived only half full.
>   For a full two years, this went on daily, with the bearerdelivering
>only  one and a half pots of water to his master's house pertrip.
>   Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments,and its
>perfect  record, while the poor cracked pot was ashamed of itsimperfection, and
>   miserable that it was able to accomplish only half ofwhat it had been
>made  to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitterfailure, it
>spoke  to the water bearer by the stream, one day. "I am ashamed of myself,
>andIwant to apologize to you. "Why?" asked the bearer. "Whatare you
>   "These past two years, I have been able to deliver onlyhalf my load
>   because this crack in my side allows the water to leakout all the way
>back  to your master's house. Because of my flaws you haveto do all of this
>   work, and you don't get full value from your efforts",the pot said.
>   The water bearer felt sorry for the cracked pot, andwith compassion he
>   said, "As we return to the master's house, I want youto notice the
>   beautiful flowers along the path." Indeed, as they wentup the hill,
>the  cracked pot noticed the beautiful wild flowers on theside of the path,
>and  felt somewhat cheered. Still, at the end of the trailonly half of its
>   water remained, and it again apologized to the bearerfor its failure.
>   The bearer said to the pot, "Did you notice that therewere flowers only
>on  your side of the path? That's because I have always knownabout your
>flaw,  and I took advantage of it. I planted flower seeds onyour side of the
>   path, and every day while we walk back from the stream,you've watered
>them.  For two years I have been able to pick these beautifulflowers to
>decorate  my master's table. Without you being just the way youare, he would not
>   have this beauty to grace his house."
>   Each of us has our own unique flaws.
>   We're all cracked pots.
>   The cracks and flaws we each have make our lives togetherso very
>   interesting and rewarding. We have to take each personfor what they
>are,  and look for the good in them.
>   There is a lot of good out there. There is a lot of goodin you.
>Blessed  are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape.
>   Auther unknown
>  R a y n a r d   M e r r i t t
>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 518
>Date: 21 Dec 2000 13:06:03 -0000

>Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:40:06 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Mike Montoya <>
>Subject: IN CALIF
>Hi..this is the first computer i have found on line since arriving.We are
>in CAlif. I graduated. We are all fine.
>Message: 2
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:01:49 -0000
>    From: "Owen D Camp" <>
>Subject: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>From:  Owen
>         Dear Sirs
>        I propose a contest topick an appropriate name for Mrs. Clinton's
>memoirs.  And my entry is "It Takes A Doormat".
>        Owen Camp   Cairo  NY
>Message: 4
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:51:10 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>Brother Owen,
>Heh, heh, heh-EXCELLENT TITLE!
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 5
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:52:45 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: IN CALIF
>Brother Mike,
>Praise God!
>Well done young squire-merry Christmas to you and your fine family.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 6
>    Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:55:23 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: cracked
>Brother Ray,
>Thanks bro : )
>Merry Christmas to you and yours.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 519
>Date: 22 Dec 2000 12:35:59 -0000
>Message: 3
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:43:26 -0800 (PST)
>    From: WCCM ENT <>
>Subject: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>Congratulations Carol!;...on your fame and all. (however brief itmay be)
>Glad to hear that Jim is out of the hospital.  I hope he is recovering
>well. This election will sure be one for the History books .  I am relieved
>that's it's over...for the better I think. I haven't written much
>lately...there's been so much going on in my life.   My94 year old
>Grandmother passed away last week.  It was difficult on my family.  She was
>a very strong Catholic woman. ( Now please  don't start thatagain) . She
>was an Italian Immigrant during World War 2, and the Matriarch ofour
>family.  I feel privileged to  have lived with her for several years. Much
>Wisdom and experience she has imparted to me, for which I shall beforever
>grateful.     My Dad is failing in health, anddoesn't have much longer for
>this world.  Would you all please pray for him?  That Jesus shows his mercy
>toward him before his time is through?    I had beenestranged from him for
>20 years...until 2 years ago..."Christmas Eve"..We were reunited after 20
>years!. I plan to visit him again on Friday...It may be my last
>he is rapidly failing.  This is very difficult for me.  Please Pray for his
>soul. On an up-note, Jesus  answered one of my prayers. For several years,
>I have known that Jesus was  calling me to teach "Ballroom Dance"  He would
>send me signs like.....strangers would stop me on the street....andask me
>if I was a dance teacher.   (How weird is that?) I havealways had a desire
>to reach out to the dance community...(who have always been so gracious to
>me. )  I  have been patiently waiting for His timing.   Well, sort of
>unexpectedly, it has  happened....(Not quite in the way I expected).  A
>Jewish Family has asked me and my partner to come to their very elegant
>function facility  to teach swing and ballroom dance....and aretalking
>about further possibilities.  We have been    teaching for 5 weeks now, and
>they are very excited  about future prospects.  They arebeautiful,
>wonderful folks.I know this is from God, And I want to do my bestto
>fulfill God's Will. I wish for you all God's Peace and Blessings during
>this Holiday Season Love, Diana    Original Message----- From: Carol To:
>  CNN was discussing this on Talk Back Live.
>I posted a comment to the web site chat..   Hillary shoulddonate her
>8 Million to Women Abuse Centers.
>CNN showed part of my comment on TV... cool...   They leftout the
>last four words.  It was pretty neat seeing my comments on thebottom
>of the screen with my name.  So much for my 1/100th of a momentin
>fame.. LOL.
>A suggestion made on Dave Letterman for the name of her book was
>something like this:  Yes Bill is a Jerk, End of Story!!
>Message: 4
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:57:05 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: Re: Investment advice...
>There's nothing wrong with gold.  It's always worth money.
>In fact, it's just about the only thing that is indeed money.
>I forget who it is - could have been Teddy - but they made
>gold coins minus the motto "In God We Trust" about a hundred
>years ago.  At first glance and hearing of this - I thought itwas
>         getting rid of Godor something.
>But the reason it was done - whoever the President was - he
>didn't want those decadent people out in the wild west using
>money that had the motto on it.  He thought their dealings were
>below that - you know, the drinking and the cat houses and all....
>Anyway - I first started listening to the "Financial Advisor" - a
>program that comes on after Let's Talk About Jesus - about
>ten years ago.  I've caught on to their "catch" phrases - like
>- "should gold break that 275 resistance - expect it to shoot above
>300."  Or - "gold was up (for instance) five dollars yesterday,and
>today there's a correction...." (it went back down some)
>Gold has been under 300 an ounce for the better part of two years.
>When I started buying - it rarely went under 400.  So you know
>I "lost" money there.  - and that 400 was worth more than 400today!
>But you buy gold for the long run - or to pass down to your children.
>I just got some the other week because I definitely wanted to getsome
>more before it does go back up - and kick myself for not getting some
>        while it's been at it'slow. (that's the time to buy, folks!)
>Because it probably will at least go back over 400 one of these days.
>Remember Trading Places with Eddie Murphy - the Duke Brothers explain
>their business by showing him the commodities products on the table.
>They said our investors speculate that price of gold will rise, andsome
>speculate the price of gold will fall - and they place their orderswith us
>based on their feelings.  Tell him the good part, Randolph (andMortimer
>So Mortimer tells Valentine (this is the good part) Whether the price
>of gold rises or falls - Duke and Duke still get their commissions.
>        Understand?
>   Sounds to me like you guys are a couple of bookies.
>         See, I told you he'dunderstand Randolph!
>   Back to buying gold -
>I used to mail away to Goldline in California and they would shipit to my
>The other week I went downtown.  I had called Delaware wherethere was a
>shop that sold bullion at %12.  That's how they make their money.
>Downtown sells it for %10 above the market value - and then adds tax.
>So it's - hey, it is more expensive than Delaware!  But I didn't feel like
>taking  that long of a ride.
>So when I get a gold ounce for 300 - it's sort of like driving a caroff
>thelot,it immediately loses value.  A 270 ounce costs me 300.  And, I have sold
>coins back to a shop on Jewelers row - he pays 10 dollars behind the
>I think that's good.  So if I would cash in a gold coin I couldget $260 -
>losing $40.  But never fear - gold is always worth money - and  it's not
>goingto stay below 300 forever.
>I think I shared the story one time when the Goldlline fellow fromthe
>radiowent up to Alan Greenspan at a function and asked him why they worried
>about the price of gold going up or down - when they're the ones whohelp
set the price?
>Two guys in suits grabbed Joe Bataglia's arms on each side and escorted him
>away informing him, "You're done talking with Mr. Greenspan."
>Joe's favorite gold story is that he bought a Mustang in the 1960'sfor
>Today, a Mustang goes for around $30,000.  Tens times as muchmoney -
>but here's the catch - if it took X number of ounces of gold to buythat
>Mustangin the 1960's - guess what - you can still buy a Mustang for the same
>amountof gold - while money "decreased" in value - gold "increased" in value- I
>put  those words in parenthesisbecause of inflation.
>I don't really understand this stuff - what I think the bottom lineis - no
>what you do - they win.  But had you sold some of your gold -there was a
>window in Jimmy Carter's administration when gold went to over $800an
>ounce - you could have made out there.  Could happen again.  They like to
>mention that and appeal to your greed.  But gold is a good sound
>         So is silver.  You think Warren Buffet is stupid?
>Another thing - my mom said they sold a $5 gold coin to a guy theyknew
>around 1960 for five dollars because they needed money.  Thesignificance?
>Besides definitely being worth more than 5 dollars ( which would belike
>fifty dollars today) the transaction was illegal - or my mom havingthat
>gold was illegal.  It was against federal law to own gold atthat time.
>Can you believe it being "against the law" to own the only thing that's
>         stood the test oftime as being worth money?!?!
>The government could do it again if they wanted.  Okay - giveus all
>your gold - we'll give you $50 an ounce (like it's stamped on the
>Maple Leafs).  And after they got all the gold - they can thensay -
>           goldis now $10,000 an ounce.
>Or, if they would go back on the gold standard - if they would!
>If they would go back on the gold standard gold would also skyrocket.
>But that is something I don't think we'll ever see because it makes
>sense - and the career politicians today aren't about making sense
>in case you haven't noticed.  They are the ones hoarding thegold.
>There are a lot of silver spoon people in politics.  ChristyWhitman.
>         George Bush.  Al Gore.
>they're movers and shakers - and what they move is us - they turn
>us upside down and take what ever falls out of our pockets.  And
>if you don't let them turn you upside down they come to your door
>    with guns.
>        No?
>   Don't pay your taxes - and see what happens.
>You've heard about the swat teams going into restaurants and similar
>stories - based on one phone call from a disgruntled employee.
>        Enough.
>   Oh - and a tip:
>stay out of Dodge
>Message: 5
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:04:18 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>I like the way you do that - tell us what's going on and all -
>It reminds me of - yesterday they were talking on radio about
>people used to - after signing their Christmas cards they would
>add a line or two about the family - and now it's morphed into
>people who write - what basically comes down to a family
>newsletter.  Good way to catch up and pass things along.....

>Message: 8
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:05:11 -0500
>    From: "richard farretta" <>
>Subject: Merry Christmas from the Farretta Family
>May you have a very merry  Christmas    and mayGod Bless your new year.
>                         Love In Christ
>                  Richard ,Nayibe,Grace and David Farretta
>Message: 9
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:28:00 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>Sister Diana,
>I will pray for your  Dad's salvation. I started working on mymom back in
>the late 70's when I would come home for holidays from Cobu. I gaveher the
>12 salvation verses underlined in a bible and prayed for her but Iwas
>never really sure until around the last couple of years of her life.She
>encountered many physically difficult hard times but one of the most
>difficult for her was having to move into a nursing home. She washad lived
>independently for 85 or 86 of her 89 years that the Lord gave her.
>I marvel at the peace he gave her to accept her new home and she even began
>to call it her home. This peace came after quite a while of bitter
>complaining and calls to me at night wanting me to get her out ofthere and
>telling me I didn't love her because I wouldn't take her out. Thatwas
>rough, but God truly worked everything out. I trust my mom is nowin heaven
>because she spoke of God in a matter of fact way saying her faithwas in
>Him. I was blessed to have gotten to see her and talk to her the last day
>of her life. That was a huge comfort.
>God is faithful sis. Keep hoping against hope as Abraham did. Godhas all
>the events of our lives worked out in marvelous ways and key peoplein key
>places for our loved ones. I've witnessed this truth many times inmy life.
>Merry Christmas and happy new year : )
>Would love to see you do some ballroom dancing. I believe I wouldhave been
>an Irish Flamenco dancer if I hadn't joined Cobu and been in a wheelchair :
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 10
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:31:07 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Born Blind as a Figure
>In a message dated 12/19/00 5:26:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> writes:
><< neil
>  they weren't referring to sin committed before he was bornanew.  they
>  were asking about sin commited before he was physically born.   ellen
>   >>
>      Ellen, I can apprehend the superficialmeaning as well as any other
>reader. But the superficial meaning, even of the New Testament, isentirely
>figurative. Of what must physical birth be figurative, if the spiritual are
>to be instructed through the scriptures? What does it mean, for instance,
>that the 'sins of the fathers are visited upon the children to thethird
>andthe fourth generation'? The fathers are figurative of those who give
>instruction and discipline in the faith, and the children are their
>convertsand disciples.   - Neil
>Message: 11
>    Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:31:15 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>Sister Diana,
>Forgot to include that I am sorry to hear your Grandma passed away.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton

 Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 520
>Date: 23 Dec 2000 10:25:33 -0000
>Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:34:55 -0500
>    From: "Walker, Michael S, PERSCOM" <>
>Subject: Subject: Re: Mrs Clinton's memoirs
>Here's an enlightening article concerning the recent book deal:
>Message: 2
>    Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:44:05 -0500
>    From: "Walker, Michael S, PERSCOM" <>
>Subject: RE: investment advice...
>Yes, Carol, Stick with the pros!
>I find that the people talking-up gold say that it's been up to $600-700
>andounce. The problem is that it hasn't been there in 20 years.
>Ten years ago I tried buying options, and just lost money. The guyselling
>them to me made plenty on the commissions! I think the bottom line
>motivation was just greed. I wanted to make a killing quickly, andthe
>sellers took advantage of my greed. It sounded to good to be true,and it
>Since then, I have tried to be like the patient farmer. Invest in
>commission-free mutual funds and let time do the work.
>Hope this helps,
>Message: 3
>    Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:26:19 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: message
>Mark - I have been looking for that article that accompanied
>the sinking homes - can't find it.  It was on the cover, but
>for the life of me - I don't know where those Daily News
>got to.  I went through all our sacks of recyclable newspapers
>and didn't find it.
>I thought it most appropriate when talking about elections and
>some of the shenanigans.
>Though, I'll tell you, reading this book about modern history -
>we do have the best country and system...
>Carol - funny - if you notice - I say I don't buy Colin Powell's
>"excuse" for not running - but a few sentences later say what
>a decent man he is - and if you're a decent man - and try to
>do good things - you'll end up like MLK or JFK.  So there is
>the taking a bullet thing once again.  A viable concern.
>But every one in public office has that concern.
>I still don't think that was the straw that broke the camel's
>back.  Can't be his one and only reason....
>What else did I have to say?
>Happy holidays, everyone!
>And Herm - there were a couple pages about Ghandi - he was a
>strange mystic.  One of the things I remember the guy wrote was
>something like "it took a lot of money to keep Ghandi in poverty"
>when referring to those that financially supported him...
>The one major thing was - Ghandi was, like his mother,
>The other thing I've gleaned from this book - there was one leader
>of a country that said, literally, that he loved drama.
>That seems to be what runs the media.  The issues, the concerns,
>what really matters - isn't in the forefront.
>What makes the press is Madonna's wedding.  Brown doesn't
>make some practices (here in Philly the Sixers are off to a great
>start - but what makes the news?)
>And all of the nations concerns - and Monica is the headlines.
>There's other examples that I can't think of right now, but you
>get the idea.
>And it ties into our Cobu experience.  Stewart would often make
>"the issue" something that would catch our interest or ire, but
>after the gnats - there were camels being swallowed.
>That being said - aren't we all better off now?!
>Jesus understands and we have begun to understand too - thanks
>to the input of everyone.
>A clear picture of what the truth really is comes forth from
>each and every one of us.
>Thank you for being there.
>BTW - when it comes to gold - should you have numismatic -
>(rare coins) - those are exempt from confiscation should the
>government decide they should want to confiscate all the
>gold once again.  This is not "conspiracy theories" - this
>actually happened not too long ago.
>God bless us everyone.
>Message: 4
>    Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:25:40 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
>Subject: I think, therefore I am, stoopid
>Jesus was a:
>1. His first name was Jesus
>2. He was bilingual
>3. He was always being harassed by the authorities
>But then there were equally good arguments that JESUS WAS BLACK
>1. He called everybody "brother"
>2. He liked Gospel
>3. He couldn't get a fair trial
>But then there were equally good arguments that JESUS WAS JEWISH
>1. He went into His Father's business
>2. He lived at home until he was 33
>3. He was sure his Mother was a virgin, and his Mother was sure hewas God
>But then there were equally good arguments that JESUS WAS ITALIAN
>1. He talked with his hands
>2. He had wine with every meal
>3. He used olive oil
>But then there were equally good arguments that JESUS WAS A CALIFORNIAN
>1. He never cut his hair
>2. He walked around barefoot
>3. He started a new religion
>But then there were equally good arguments that JESUS WAS IRISH
>1. He never got married
>2. He was always telling stories
>3. He loved green pastures
>But perhaps the most compelling evidence... THREE PROOFS THAT JESUSWAS A
>WOMAN .....
>1. He had to feed a crowd at a moment's notice when there was no food
>2. He kept trying to get the message across to a bunch of men who  JUST
>3. Even when He was dead, He had to get up because there was morework for
>him to do.
>brother ray

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 521
>Date: 24 Dec 2000 10:10:23 -0000
>Message: 1
>    Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:10:36 -0500
>    From: lori LeDonne <>
>Subject: Fw: (no subject)
>Hi, everyone, and Merry Christmas.  This is something my sisterforwarded
>to me that is probably more appropriate for New Years, but here itis
>anyways.  Hope it's not a repeat; I haven't been keeping up toowell here.
> >                                         I've learned-
> >                        that you can do something in an instant that
> >                            will give you heartache for life.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                          that it's taking me a long time
> >                        to become the person I want to be.
> >
> >                                          I've learned-
> >                       that you should always leave loved ones
> >                         with loving words. It may be the last
> >                                 time you see them.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                                 that you can keep going
> >                                   long after you can't.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                        that we are responsible for what we do,
> >                                 no matter how we feel.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                            that either you control your attitude
> >                                 or it controls you.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                               that regardless of how hot and
> >                             steamy a relationship is at first,
> >                          the passion fades and there had
> >                              better be something else to take
> >                                           its place.
> >
> >                                         I've learned-
> >                              that heroes are the people
> >                          who do what has to be done
> >                                when it needs to be done,
> >                           regardless of the consequences.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                     that money is a lousy way of keeping score.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                       that my best friend and I can do anything
> >                           or nothing and have the best time.
> >
> >                                         I've learned-
> >                    that sometimes the people you expect
> >                             to kick you when you're down,
> >                       will be the ones to help you get back up.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                        that sometimes when I'm angry
> >                              I have the right to be angry,
> >                               but that doesn't give me
> >                               the right to be cruel.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                       that true friendship continues to grow,
> >                          even over the longest distance.
> >                            Same goes for true love.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                      that just because someone doesn't love
> >                         you the way you want them to doesn't
> >                     mean they don't love you with all they have.
> >
> >                                          I've learned-
> >                          that maturity has more to do with
> >                       what types of experiences you've had
> >                         and what you've learned from them
> >                             and less to do with how many
> >                              birthdays you've celebrated.
> >
> >                                          I've learned-
> >                         that no matter how good a friend is,
> >                            they're going to hurt you every
> >                          once in a while and you must forgive
> >                                       them for that.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                           that it isn't always enough to be
> >                       Sometimes you
> >                            have to learn to forgive yourself
> >
> >
> >                                         I've learned -
> >                       that no matter how bad your heart is broken
> >                          the world doesn't stop for your grief.
> >
> >                                         I've learned-
> >                       that our background and circumstances
> >                           may have influenced who we are,
> >                     but we are responsible for who we become.
> >
> >                                     I've learned-
> >                         that just because two people argue,
> >                     it doesn't mean they don't love each other
> >                          And just because they don't argue,
> >                                 it doesn't mean they do.
> >
> >                                        I've learned-
> >                         that we don't have to change friends
> >                        if we understand that friends change.
> >
> >                                          I've learned-
> >                     that you shouldn't be so eager to find out
> >                       a secret. It could change your life
> >                                            forever.
> >
> >                                          I've learned-
> >                            that two people can look at the exact
> >                         same thing and see something totally
> >                                           different.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                    that your life can be changed in a matter
> >                     hours by people who don't even know you.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                   that even when you think you have no more
> >                        to give, when a friend cries out to you,
> >                              you will find the strength to help.
> >
> >                                            I've learned-
> >                                that credentials on the wall
> >                        do not make you a decent human being.
> >
> >                                           I've learned-
> >                       that the people you care about most in life
> >                               are taken from you too soon.
> >
> >                  Send this to all the people YOU BELIEVE In...
> >
> >                                                 I just did.
> >
> >  "It takes a long time to become young"
> >                                  Pablo Picasso
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>Message: 3
>    Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:53:42 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: Born Blind as a Figure
>i understand that nei8l, but it has to work both ways.  i waspointing
>out that there were repercussions "superficially" as you put it thatare
>real, that's all.  it isn't just figurative.  it's both.    ellen
>Message: 4
>    Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:16:56 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: Christmas! Christmas! Christmas!
>Pretty neat stuff.  Words and lyrics on the one page....
>God's timing - I ran into an old buddy - actually - we went
>to a Wayne retreat together a year and a half ago where I saw
>among the 300 in attendance an ex-Cobu sister and we talked
>very briefly.  We were both glad to have survived the Traillabuse.
>I had been looking for Arlen Specter's book "Passion for Truth" formy
>dad - I already got him Yogi's "I Didn't Say All those things I Said."
>Actually, I wanted to get him "Best Seat in the House" by Dan Wheeler
>but that's so hot off the press you can't even get it online - they
>don'teven have a picture of the book up yet that I could download and say,
>"I'm getting this book when available...."
>Well I went into about three book stores in the last week and called
>about three today looking for Arlen's book.
>  This book is new too.  One store was sold out.  So
>I had to run an errand - and I thought if I could find parking I'dstop
>by in the Gallery downtown where, in that mall, there's two book stores.
>When I get there - the one name is the same chain of the one thatwas
>sold out, so maybe...   No, they're sold out too.
>I go to the last place - and they got it - so I got it.  I madea quick
>stopin the religion section, as I had run across a brochure I had gotten in
>themail for a book by John Noe called "Beyond the End Times."  I don't
>know what it's about yet, but it looked like worth reading.  We'll see.
>So on my way back - I stop at Kerriaky Boy - a place that steam
>cooks and I like their food - and who is standing there but Ray -who
>I mentioned at the beginning here.  He was led to Jesus by Peter
>Jaquay but never moved in.  Lucky him, huh?!
>He knows.
>He likes to hand out tracks.  That's his thing. He said he hasn't seen
>"them" on South Street lately and I reminded him of the Philly mag
>article.  BTW - I drove by there last night when I went to thebook
>store on South Street.  - As I approached, I saw the sign wasstill
>up - "The Better Way Cafe"
>but the windows are boarded up - or more like a "billboard" in the
>window.  It's going to be a place that sells organic dog food.
>That's the best I could make out what it said - so there's new renters.
>Ray said that guy Howie works harder than any of them - meaning
>that Howie (Layton) stays out long hours handing out tracks.
>"Why," said Ray, "he'd be out on a cold night like tonight!"
> > Dear friends and family,Just wanted to send you something special for
> > Christmas.  Since you couldn't make it to our party decided to share
> > some of it with you.Merry Christmas..Click on the link below.The
> > Stutts family

Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 522
>Date: 25 Dec 2000 09:59:58 -0000
>Message: 1
>    Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:22:46 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Prepayment for Sin
>In a message dated 12/24/00 2:11:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> writes:
><< i understand that nei8l, but it has to work both ways.  i was pointing
>  out that there were repercussions "superficially" as you putit that are
>  real, that's all.  it isn't just figurative.  it'sboth.   ellen >>
>      Okay, well, do you accept the factthat God comprehends time from one
>end to the other from outside it, and does not have to wait, and might send
>retribution 'beforehand' for sins which will be committed 'later'from a
>human point of view? God's transcendance of time solves problems like 'why
>bad things happen to [supposedly] good people', and ought to havethe
>effectof humbling Christians, whose sins God sometimes anticipates with painful
>corrections which are mysterious for the moment.  - Neil
>Message: 2
>    Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 13:13:09 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: Christmas! Christmas! Christmas!
>let me know what you think of john noe.   love,  ellen
>Message: 3
>    Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:45:43 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: john noe
> > let me know what you think of john noe.   love,  ellen
> >
>So far, so good.
>Matter of fact, there are some things he says that I used to
>say way back when - such as p34 "Is it not strange that not
>one "prophet" forecast the fall of the Berlin Wall, the demise
>of communism, the breaking apart of the Soviet Union, or
>the speedy victory..."  Yada yada.
>They all predict the end of the world and Armageddon and
>all the rest of it - but they never predict the things that
>actually DO happen.  Why is that?
>The fellow in the foreword talks about "Christ warns against
>gullibility, but He also commands us to be teachable."  I sort
>of understand the sentiment - but it reminds me when I used
>to listen to Bob George and he would say, "That fellow had
>a teachable spirit."  Yeah, right....  He means he's gladthe
>guy would shut up and listen and swallow what Bob said.
>But then Mr. Stevens in the foreword says, "John writes out
>of a deep love for the common man and connects with a
>readership that theologians seldom reach."
>I can vouch for that - there's no question about what he's
>saying and getting across.  He communicates his sentiments
>clearly so that anyone can understand.
>I'm up to page 40 - what he's basically gone over is the failure
>of so many like Harold Camping, for instance, who predicted the world
>to end in 1994, and how much this hurts the body of Christ and
>those who would continue to view Christianity as anything even
>still viable being that so many chicken little's have gotten so much
>publicity and made such big fools of all of us.
>That I agree.
>I saw in the advertisement I got in the mail that this book is printed
>by Preterist Resources.  There's the rub.
>You heard right - Preterists.
>So, while I agree with the author almost implicitly up to this point,
>and he has laid a solid, truthful and accurate foundation - I sort
>of know where he's headed.
>And that's where the - they're hoping I'm "teachable" comes in.
>It reminds me of what Loftus wrote once - and I'm glad I caught
>it - he said something like he had to change his whole way of
>thinking - something like that - but he said it much better and I
>was very impressed with the way he put it - I wonder if I still have
>that saved.....
>Anyway - I'm about to enter that part of things in the book now -
>and I guess this is where the challenges for me will start.
>It's nothing new, in a way.  I started off thinking Christianity was
>for "weak" people.  Then when I ran across the Forever Family-
>I saw "lions."
>This led, however, to disillusionment and the discovery I had been
>listening to a guy who "talked" about Jesus, but came down hard
>on me like Moses.  And I had to leave.  And leave.  And finally I
>got tired of the revolving door and stayed away totally in the 1980's
>when Blake came to my job in 1989 and said,
>  "Stewart  discovered grace."
>Grace, huh?  You know, I think that I can handle grace....
>And I had a great year - till I slowly - and some of us slowly
>realized this was just refried beans and the throne should have
>been abdicated if true grace was found.
>Leaving - I don't have to tell you - it's been gone over a few times
>by many of us - and still on this list (Dee's are so "funny" and
>chilling at the same time!) of the traumatic feelings we've gone
>through and still suffer.  I was in limbo.  Still am, sortof.
>I had questions. I was angry. Fill in the blanks...
>But God has been very gracious with me - and assuaged much of
>my pain.  In Wayne Monbleau I learned of the truly deep and
>real compassion of Jesus Christ.  A very present help in timeof
>trouble.  He doesn't see sin and run away - he sends the Comforter.
>He's closest when we're far away - and many such good things.
>(I'm reminded of Noe's book now - he mentions Van Impe
>preaching the "good news" of Armageddon.  Sheesh!)
>And with Gene, well, the Bible finally made sense.  It came to
>life and I could see the story and it was believable.
>So I'm ready for new stuff - if that's what this entails.  Isit
>merely intellectual?
>I guess it matters on who you ask.  I am interested, obviously
>and am looking into this.  What I "conclude" is obviously my
>I know that, how can I say it, the "traditional" way of looking
>at things - I am so much "upset" with - I am so glad that they
>were replaced with - for lack of a better way to put it -
>"better stuff."
>And it's hard not to "speak out" or "put down" things that I
>have let fall to the wayside ( and very gladly I did it! ).
>I wonder, I can see "parallels" in the way I have tried to present
>certain things and the way, say, Loftus has tried to present things
>that are different to what we've heard in the past.
>I guess you could call it uncharted territory.  I am about toembark.
>If I "believe" I don't wish to come out guns blazing - everyone
>else must also.  And if I don't "believe" I don't want to putdown
>anyone who even hints Preterists "may have a point."
>But this book by John Noe - I guess it's a good way to start
>addressing all of this one way or the other.
>What do I think of John Noe?  So far, I like him and agree with
>him.  (I'm reading his book - sometimes reading a man's words
>and hearing him speak are very different I have found - like
>Robert Bly's "Iron John" I thought was a great book.  I got the
>book on tape - read by Bly himself - and I didn't even like the
>book.  I used to say "spirits speak louder than words."  Well in
>this case, the pen was mightier than the spirit.)
>Message: 5
>    Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:34:51 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <>
>Subject: christmas cheer
>*The Laugh*
>No one can fracture a Christmas carol better than a kid. Sing alongwith
>these new takes on old favorites:
>Deck the Halls with Buddy Holly
>We three kings of porridge and tar
>On the first day of Christmas my tulip gave to me
>Later on we'll perspire, as we dream by the fire.
>He's makin a list, chicken and rice.
>Noel. Noel, Barney's the king of Israel.
>With the jelly toast proclaim
>Olive, the other reindeer.
>Frosty the Snowman is a ferret elf, I say
>Sleep in heavenly peas
>In the meadow we can build a snowman, Then pretend that he is sparseand
>You'll go down in listerine
>Oh, what fun it is to ride with one horse, soap and hay
>O come, froggy faithful
>You'll tell Carol, "Be a skunk, I require"
>Good tidings we bring to you and your kid
>Message: 6
>    Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:18:58 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <>
>Merry Christmas!

Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 523
>Date: 26 Dec 2000 09:46:33 -0000

>Message: 2
>    Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 10:58:24 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <>
>Subject: Re:
>Hi Gene,
>It's just a virus I thought I'd send for Christmas.  (kidding)   It's a
>Christmas Card.
>Message: 3
>    Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:36:13 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: Add a greeting...
>I like that "House of Saxton"
>Sounds medieval and benign at the same time.
>Message: 4
>    Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:40:36 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re:
>My computer wanted to find it in my A drive -
>where there is nothing.  I downloaded something,
>didn't I?  But not to the A drive.  I checked My
>Documents and a few other places and found nothing.
>So don't know where the EXE is.......
>This happens with different things that are sent from
>time to time......oh well..

>Message: 5
>    Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 12:53:24 -0500
>    From: Eugene P Alvarez Jr <>
>Subject: Re:
>Yes! Christmas flu bugs!!! <g>
>Thank you for the card.
>And remember...
>The Gift, He was on the tree,
>                                 not under it !

>Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 15:00:45 EST
>    From:
>Subject: seasons greetings
>Hi All, I & my family would like to wish all a Merry Christmas& a Happy
>                                                                 Herm
>Message: 7
>    Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:14:34 -0500
>    From: Eric Fetterolf <>
>Subject: Jan. Big Meeting
>I was in Scranton over the weekend and saw a friend of mine.  Guess who
>came tohis door Thursday night 9:30 PM and invited him and family to a bible
>study onJanuary 1!!! COBU!!  He got into a discussion and called thema cult.
>They weresupposed to return tonight-maybe give him directions and address.
>Anyone elseaware of this?  Where are they staying in Scranton?  Mybet goes to the
>warehouseat 450 Gilligan Street...Gee, they have fire place, why not some
>sleeping bags anda kerosene heater!!
>For those of you who haven't received our greeting, check out
>Hope all had a blessed Christmas!

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 524
>Date: 27 Dec 2000 10:03:33 -0000
>Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:01:35 -0800
>    From: "shenri" <>
>Subject: scanning test
>Joyeux noel all and hope you are enjoying the holidays,since I havesome
>time off I made some more tests using the scanner.It seem to workif I use
>Window Imaging otherwise,my server refuse to send any files directlyfrom
>my scanner so if this work it will be a great start to further test.This is
>just a hockey picture and I`m #31,the fastest,faster then Mario{lol}Please
>let me know if this came too big or if it was easy to adjust the size or
>any other problems,thanks.
>Click here for Free Video!!
>Message: 3
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:48:55 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <>
>Subject: Re: scanning test
>Hi Sylvain!
>Nice to hear from you.  Didn't receive the picture attached with the email.
>  Could you try to resend it...perhaps as an attachment?
>Message: 4
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:47:32 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A mechanic who worked out of his home had a dog named Mace.
> > > > Mace had a bad habit of eating all the grass on the mechanic's
> > > > lawn, so the mechanic had to keep Mace inside. The grass
> > > > eventually became overgrown.
> > > >
> > > > One day the mechanic was working on a car in the backyard
> > > > and dropped his wrench, losing it in the tall grass. He couldn't
> > > > find it for the life of him, so he decided to call it a day.
> > > >
> > > > That night, Mace escaped from the house and ate all the grass
> > > > in the backyard. The next morning the mechanic went outside
> > > > and saw his wrench glinting in the sunlight.
> > > >
> > > > Realizing what had happened, he looked toward the heavens and
> > > > proclaimed, "A grazing Mace, how sweet the hound, that saveda
> > > > wrench for me!"
> > >
> > > Arrgghhhhh!  !

Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 525
>Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 05:14:38 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: FEMA and Clinton
>TOM wrote:
>And the proof in the pudding of the complete difference will be theefforts
>to overturn the aforementioned FEMA regulations and the like, right?All I
>can say is, start learning to speak Chinese.  My local restaurant has on
>theother side of the fortune in the fortune cookie
>"Learn Chinese" - and they present a certain word for you to learn.
>MARK writes:
>No, I don't advocate scrapping FEMA, by the way, in case I was
>misunderstood.  The concept with Nixon of setting up a "provisional
>government" in case we are nuked wasn't a bad idea.  The additions by
>Carterfor the work with "regional disasters" is also a good thing, as longas the
>US can afford to do so.  Actually, I worked a stint under FEMAa few years
>back when there was the floods in western PA, so I see much good init
>(besides a lot of overtime for yours truly).
>As long as there are decent men in govt, this should not be a problem.
>Of course there are crooks in both major parties, but I think thedemocrats
>hit a real low point here.  There is a major difference betweendemocrats
>like Carter, Johnson or Truman - and the present guy Clinton (themedia
>darling who is an idol to some) and his crew.  There was a timewhen the
>democrats provided loyal opposition, and were still concerned withnational
>defense and such.
>Now the socialists have taken over in that party for the most part,and I
>want no part of that. The liberals who always want "choice" (particularly
>regarding baby killing), don't want to give us a choice regarding
>socialism,they want to jam it down our throats, so in a sense they are
>fundamentalistsof a political sort.
>However, I do agree that China will be the world power someday. Aristotle
>said that the life expectancy of a democracy is about 200 years.  Masculine
>republics become feminine democracies, Aristotle wrote,
>them become subtle despotism to overt dictatorship. Our founders setup a
>good Constitution, but how long will it last?  It is also saidthat those
>who refuse to be ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants.
>Message: 2
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:39:56 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: FEMA and Clinton
> > TOM wrote:
> > And the proof in the pudding of the complete difference will be the
>efforts  to overturn the aforementioned FEMA regulations and the like, right?All
>I  can say is, start learning to speak Chinese.
MARK writes:
> > No, I don't advocate scrapping FEMA, by the way, in case I was
> > misunderstood. Actually, I worked a stint under FEMA a few years
> > back when there was the floods in western PA, so I see much good in it
> > (besides a lot of overtime for yours truly).
>Things work well when they do what they're supposed to.
>Actually, I had listened to a Chinaman on NPR (Nat Pub Radio)
>a few weeks ago name Harry Wu, or was it Henry?  He spent 19
>years in prison there and prints something called "Bitter Winds"
>In saying we should start to learn Chinese - I was wondering if
>some would come out with all the "blame Clinton" stuff for all
>the China fiascoes.Harry Wu says he blames Nixon and Kissinger for kissing up
>to the Chinese and putting us in a stupid relationship.
>(Those weren't his words, exactly...)
> > As long as there are decent men in govt, this should not be a problem.
>I've got a great quote from the Modern Times book I'm reading -
>he was writing about India - and I said, hey - that sounds like how
>things are here now.
>And the next paragraph he goes into it -
>I felt like I found the needle in the haystack.
>I'll be posting that pp soon.  I was bit "politicalled" out lately....
>Message: 3
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:58:42 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Knowing Noe - My latest Novel
> > > > > proclaimed, "A grazing Mace, how sweet the hound, that saveda
> > > > > wrench for me!"
> > > >
> > > > Arrgghhhhh!  !
>Yes it's a groaner all right!  I thought you were going to say
>that was your lawn - as you mentioned before that's your preference.
>To knowing Noe - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>     John Noe - "Beyond the End Times"
>I would have to say, almost done the book, that I have
>  been pleasantly surprised.  I would also call this book
>         "required reading."
>I'm not into end times and prophecy stuff.  To me, it's a
>waste of time.  I pass.  There's other ways to spin yourwheels.
>Biblically - the life of Jesus is more important - meaning -
>His living inside of me now.  This is something I know for
>a fact personally - having the testimony within myself.
>I can't say John Noe's absolutely right about "this and that"
>because when he goes into the Greek, or talks about customs,
>or the way certain things are/were used, and events - I can't be sure
>he's presenting correct stuff.  But from the way he writes,
>his tone and methodology - he certainly seems sincere,
>truth seeking and not wanting to have any part of anything
>that would be misleading.
>The only thing I've read in the past decade about the end
>times is the book "End Times Madness" - which debunks all the
>people who in the past set a date - and guess what? -
>it didn't happen, now, did it!?
>Debunking all the fizzled out prophecies that past their time
>goes without saying - or it should.  Why don't they stop?
>And, if you notice, they never own up to their failures.
>      Do they?
>Then Noe gets to the verse "world without end."  He's not hanging
>his hat on this single verse, is he?!  No, Noe finally moveson.
>And has much more scripture seen for what they are and for what
>they're saying.  You know - when you look at a verse - and you
>never looked at it that way before, but now that you do...
>Or, he states how some of "accepted" doctrine makes God out
>to be schizophrenic - and he's absolutely right.  And how often
>do we explain away stuff because we can't explain it?  But with
>this "new insight" he's presenting - it stands up, for me so far,
>and all the verses  agree with each other - and there's a pattern
>and suddenly things make more sense than the previous screwed up
>system I never really believed in the first place.  Well, some
>of it....
>I just got past page 200 today - I got a little apprehensive
>when I got to the 3 chapters of when Jesus returned.  I
>thought I might start turning on the author.
>    I didn't.
>For me, this book makes the most sense on end times yet.
>It provides viable, Biblical, straightforward, common sense
>explanations - and I'm glad I'm reading it.
>If all this stuff is true - and it sure looks like it measures up
>  - it certainly shores up this 2nd coming stuff for me.
>Let me digress to my youth - I was into everything then sort of
>like I am now - (and looking back - was sort of an epiphany -
>or a realization I hadn't consciously realized...)
>In fourth grade we were going to watch a film or something.
>The visitor asked the class if we knew which city in Australia
>turned on all their lights so that the men orbiting the earth
>could see the city.
>I blurted out, "PERTH!"
>I was sort of embarrassed - I mean I didn't raise my hand or
>wait to be called on - I just blurted it out.  I looked at Miss
>Fleck and she was smiling so I guess it was okay.  A few years
>later, I was learning stuff in confirmation class - (I was raised
>Methodist) - the Reverend, in the course of the class asked,
>    "Why did God let them suffer in Egypt?"
>And I almost blurted this one out, too, but I raised my hand
>   eagerly and he asked me to answer.
>I don't know where I got this - maybe I heard it,
>    but I sure seemed sure of it.
>I said, "God suffered with them."
>And I was so proud of myself as the Reverend meekly smiled and
>       nodded his head.
>    Now what kind of an answer is that?
>Well this is why I'm telling you this - that's the norm for the
>some of the answers you get to some of the questions that come up.
>And it's acted as, or considered that that's an acceptable answer.
>And you shouldn't need any more than that.  I'm not saying itas
>well as I would like to - by I think you know what I mean.
>That may have been my biggest attraction to the Forever Family
>- the knowledge - and all the stuff, that to me, at the time,
>made a lot of sense.  I rejoiced in that.  And you can almost
>say it was "with signs following."  I mean - how often did Jesus
>directly - and corporately answer our prayers?  This is something
>that was not easily brushed aside - and part of what made it so
>hard to leave back in those days.  You were leaving God.
>These days - I am convinced - now that I've made my own mind up -
>to go back "home" (as we used to call it) would be to submit
>to Moses.  And I don't like him.  Neither did Paul or Peter.
>And unfortunately, Stewart did NOT "discover" grace.  I don't
>   think he would know it if he fell over it.  Hopefullyhe will
>      fall over it one of these days.  Soon, hopefully.
>Also, since I'm sort of on the subject - when I returned to Cobu
>for my final stint in 1989 - (I remembered Stewart said at a
>Diplomat meeting - they were talking about brothers being out
>front, or something like that.  "What about the quiet ones?"
>was asked.  And I listened - because that sure was me.
>"Too early to tell," was Stewart's answer.)  -
>in 1989 I was determined NOT to hold back - and I blurted out
>stuff a lot - especially since my first "brothers" meeting in
>the "New" Church Home lobby involved John Dorety.  It was
>finally "agreed" that John was "landed" and we prayed together.
>            Well I didn't buy it.
>And I was right. (that's not 'bad' about John - it's good -
>he wasn't submitting!) So after that time - I knew I was
>only a week back in fellowship - but I should still say what
>I think, because by gum, I just may have something worth saying.
>Greiner didn't think so the next week.  We had a center meeting
>- this is around April 1989 - we went round and round (what else
>is new) for at least an hour about "What should Kevin Browne
>do?" (we were trying to convince he must move to New York)
>He finally said he would move.  But he was pushed.  Thething
>   was settled - Kevin acquiesced - but it wasn't right.
>         So I said so.
>Here we were - the subject was finally settled and dropped
>and we were going to move on - but now - -
>            (I had voiced my opinion)
>Greiner's eyes were as big as saucers as he wanted to scream
>at me and strangle me at the same time.  But there was just silence
>            till Joe Teklits said,
>"Well what about what Tom said, Kevin.  Were you pushed?"
>And we went round and round for another hour thanks to me.
>        Oh well.  "Returningto fellowship."
>Also - at that time I was determined to be myself - you know
>how the "brothers would get unreal" and stuff.  And John told
>me - (he had "returned" a few months before I did) - that he also
>was determined to be himself and was very "relaxed and free"
>when he went to the Princeton house for some "marriage counseling."
>     I've told this story before - but it is oneof my favorites -
>and I'll keep it to these few sentences:  John was spinning
>Stewart's globe - being relaxed and free and glad to be "back
>     with Jesus" and all the rest of it.  Stewart started the
>             "counseling" with one question:
>"Terry, wouldn't you be more secure if John were totally
>       surrendered to Jesus?"
>              Bam!
>   With one sentence he separated them.
>   The man's a genius - in a devious way.
>Cause you know - John now is put in the position of defending
>       himself - and we all know whatthat looks like!
>(and hence the origin of the one line in my story "How Can I
>    Help the King?" on my website - "With one sentence,
>he could separate a husband and a wife.")  back to the book...
>(forget about Noe?  No?)
>Well this book I'm reading now offers real answers to stuff I
>didn't even ask questions about anymore.  I didn't care.
>This is from page 203 - where I'm at now: I am quoting John Noe -
>     "Are you shocked, flabbergasted, or perhapseven upset that Jesus
>   might have kept his word and literally returned exactlyas and
>   when He said He would, and as and when every single NewTestament
>   reference promised and every early Church believer expected?
>   Or are you afraid to admit that we might have missedthe obvious
>     truth for so many centuries?"
>this is a bit of a more aside.........:
>I got a pamphlet - I suppose I saw it advertised in a Christian
>magazine years ago - called "The Greatest Hoax."  On the cover
>   is a drawing of the earth hurtling through space on fire.
>    I never really read it - thinking it was alongthe lines
>      of Last Days Madness.
>I went back to look at it - it is touting the same things
>in the book I'm reading now - only he takes it on to some
>conspiracy - saying this doctrine about the second coming
>of Christ is to get us all to be pew warmers while the
>Masons take over (he cites George Washington was a Mason).
>He says we'll get complacent about what's going on and those
>at the helm of the conspiracy will be free to pillage - not
>a lot unlike the present political system.  People in the
>pews don't care a whole lot since we're "gonna blast out of
>here soon" anyway (the rapture).  So the stewardships of
>   taking care of our world are neglected. (where are those
>         stewardships listed?)
>   Anyway - that's this conspiracy guy....
>Noe agrees, somewhat, that the "futurist" views has its
>    problems in more ways than one.

>Message: 5
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:19:53 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: scanning test
>Yes - Jose I can  see.
>My brother still plays hockey in Georgia.  We watched him
>play a couple years ago the night before his wedding.  His
>future wife was afraid he was going to get a black eye.
>(from an accident - of course there's no checking and stuff)
>The rink he played at in Atlanta was amazing - it was a
>bran new facility with three rinks.
>When he was young, he went to a hockey clinic in Norway
>and he almost went pro.  He was captain of most teams he
>played on and at one time was in three leagues at once while
>he was going to Temple (he was on the Temple team and two
>other teams).
>I had to go back to the picture - it's hard to see the one but
>it's there - so you're right in the middle of the photo.
>Oh - my brother I think did score one goal and they won
>something like 3 or 6 to nothing.  And they said they never have
>shutouts - so that was certainly an exception to blank the other team.
>Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:29:15 -0800
>    From: "shenri" <>
>Subject: Re: scanning test and hochey
>yes!!!Thanks all for letting me know the picture went through ok.Don`t
>laugh but this is just about 1 year of effort(part time) trying tofigure
>out this cheap scanner but still I can`t send pictures straight fromthe
>scanner ,it have to go through Window Imaging so the picture sizeget
>reduced.From what I have been told ,my scanner is too basic for elaborate
>works,anyway further pictures will be send now that I have fun with
>this.Now,hockey talk.....that picture was taken when we played atthe
>Edmonton Coliseum home of the NHL Oilers (which had Gretsky on histeam
>)and I`m #31.Did you guys watch the return of Mario Lemieux tonight<that
>was awesome,3 points in his first game,what a show him and Jaeger
>together.Tom<hockey in Georgia?that must be something,its probably gaining
>popularity now that CNN owner Ted Turner has a team(the Thrashers)even now
>in California since Gretsky left they have trouble selling seats.Here the
>game tonight was televised on public broadcasting coast to coast.Iknow all
>about injuries,we don`t play contact but I got hit on the nose a month ago
>and was bleeding pretty bad.I just cant imagine what the players inthe NHL
>go through with all the heavy checks.Lindros is toast now I think,he`s
>coming back but one more hit and that will be it.
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 526
>Date: 29 Dec 2000 11:10:38 -0000
>Message: 4
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:28:20 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: FEMA and Clinton
>What do you think of Janet Reno being in charge of FEMA?  Ed
>Message: 5
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:35:12 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: Jan. Big Meeting
>Hi Eric.  I don't know why they'd return to Scranton after thesend-off the
>RC's there gave Cobu some years ago when they had the house on N.Irving
>Avenue and John Griffith was leader (center leader?).  But stranger things
>have happened on this planet.  Maybe they got some cheap landaround there
>tostart their tough-to-leave induction center that Stew has been calculating
>about for some years.  Keep us posted.  Thanks, Ed
>Message: 6
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:05:53 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: seasons greetings
>Dear Herman,  I had a nice holiday season, thank you and hopeyou did too.
>Itried Chanukah this year.   supposed New Year's Eve (Ex.12:1,2).  ed
>Message: 7
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:27:30 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: seasons greetings
>IT?           ELLEN
>Message: 8
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:25:31 -0800
>    From: John P King <>
>Subject: Re: Knowing Noe - My latest Novel
>dear tom:
>have tried to reach you privately repeatedly.  the address ihave gets
>returned all the time.  would you please send me the correctaddress?
>thanks a lot.  love, ellen
>Message: 9
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:43:50 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: problems with futurism/preterism
>In a message dated 12/1/00 6:25:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> writes:
><<      Also I don???t understand whatyou said about how since apostles
>  appointed elders, a 70 AD rapture is excluded.  WhoeverJohn may have
>  appointed wouldn???t be a problem, since John is accountedfor as
>remaining  alive until the Lord came.  As for those who were appointedby other
>  apostles who were martyred before 70 AD, who is to say thatthey survived
>  the persecution until the destruction of the temple?  That???s not so
>clear   c >>
>John 21 seems to take special effort to point out that John did notlive
>until the resurrection of the dead.  After Jesus said to Peter"If it is my
>will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?  Followme!", there
>isa parenthesis which illustrates that we are not to read into whatJesus
>saidto Peter about John (John 21:23).  If preterists say that John did not die
>but was translated in 70AD because of v.22, they are making the same
>mistakethat early brethren did which caused the writing of v.23.  Ed
>Message: 10
>    Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:14:55 -0500
>    From: "o camp" <>
>Subject: Hmmmor
>Re-sent fromOwen:
>   Santa's Prayer on Christmas Eve
>   The sleigh was all packed, the reindeer were fed,
>   But Santa still knelt by the side of the bed.
>   "Dear Father," he prayed "Be with me tonight.
>   There's much work to do and my schedule is tight.
>   I must jump in my sleigh and streak through the sky,
>   Knowing full well that a reindeer can't fly.
>   I will visit each household before the first light,
>   I'll cover the world and all in one night.
>   With sleigh bells a-ringing, I'll land on each roof,
>   Amid the soft clatter of each little hoof.
>   To get in the house is the difficult part,
>   So I'll slide down the chimney of each child's heart.
>   My sack will hold toys to grant all their wishes.
>   The supply will be endless like the loaves and the fishes.
>   I will fill all the stockings and not leave a track.
>   I'll eat every cookie that is left for my snack.
>   I can do all these things Lord, only through You,
>   I just need your blessing, then it's easy to do.
>   All this is to honor the birth of the One,
>   That was sent to redeem us, Your most Holy Son.
>   So to all of my friends, least Your glory I rob,
>   Please Lord, remind them who gave me this job."
>   Submitted by utahjeff
>Message: 11
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:48:19 -0500
>    From: "o camp" <>
>Subject: stargazing
>From Owen:
>        Dear Folks
>        Now is a great chance tosee Venus.  It is rather bright and it
>follws the sun but it sets about 4 hours later.  In fact youcan even spot
>it before sunset, as early as 4 PM.  (If you remember where yousaw it the
>night before.)  If you have the right kind of telescope (a longfocal
>length is preferred) you can see that Venus goes thru phases likethe moon
>does.  Right now it's at the "halfmoon" phase.  Tom'w night (fri) the
>crescent moon should be quite close to Venus.  (And you'll seethat again
>next month.)  Jan & Feb will also be good months for viewing Venus.
>-though I sometimes have the right to be angry,
>     I never have the right to be cruel.
>Message: 12
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:02:14 -0500
>    From: "o camp" <>
>Subject: humor
>From Owen:
>        Dear Folks
>        Christmas Shorties
> >
> >  What are Santa's helpers called?
> >  Subordinate Clauses
> >
> >  What do you call Santa Claus after he's fallen into a fireplace?
> >  Krisp Kringle
> >
> >  Who sings "Love Me Tender," and makes Christmas toys?
> >  Santa's little Elvis
> >
> >  What reindeer has the cleanest antlers?
> >  Comet
> >
> >  What does Santa say when he slips off the sleigh and is hanging upside
> >down?
> >  OH OH OH!
> >
> >  What do you call the fear of getting stuck
> >  while sliding down a chimney?
> >  Santa Claus-trophbia
> >
> >  Submitted by Lavonne
>)What do you say to a French chef?
>) "Happy Hollandaise" (Bob Thaves)
>   My stockings were hanging by the chimney with care. I'dbeen
>   wearing them for months and they needed  the air.
>   (Kegel Archives)
>)Why do they hang mistletoe in airline terminals for the holiday season?
>)so you can kiss your luggage good-bye. (Quickies)
>Though I sometimes have the right to be angry,
>     I never have the right to be cruel.

>Message: 14
>    Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:35:17 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: stargazing
>Thank you, Owen.  Did you ever resend your post about  Please put
>my name in the heading if your post is especially meant for me, forI don't
>read all of them.  Thanks.  Ed

>Message: 19
>    Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 05:36:02 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: resurrection - defining terms
>Defining Terms
>OWEN - Where is the body that hung on the cross at Calvary between2
>thieves? In heaven? Or on earth?
>MARK - Scripture is silent on this point! I must believe that if weneeded
>to know what happened to His physical body after a cloud took Himout of
>sight of his disciples we would have been told.
>ED G.  -  (24 Sept 2000) The Bible says that Jesus sat down at God's right
>hand. (Col. 3:1). Ed
>MARK  -  (15 Oct 2000, 2303)  Dear Ed; So Jesus saton his throne and
>literalism reigns??
>ED G.  -  (20 Oct 2000)  Mark, your question does notmake sense.  One may
>as well say, ?Humpty Dumpty sat on his wall and egg salad rots aftera
>while?.  Please help me to understand what you are asking sothat I may
>answer you.
>MARK  writes -  Dear Ed; It was a rhetorical question.  Your application of
>Colossians 3:1 to the question about the physical body
>of Jesus presupposes that Colossians 3:1 shall be taken literally!  But if
>we conceive of this scripture as telling us that Jesus sat down inbodily
>form at God?s right hand, should we not also conclude that the Godat whose
>side he is seated is likewise physical (or at least his right hand)and
>thatthe place where he is sitting (the throne and its immediate environs) are
>physical?  Do you believe that Colossians 3:1 constitutes scriptural proof
>that heaven is a physical place and that God is a physical being?
>Message: 20
>    Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 05:41:41 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: John Noe / dispensational datesetters distortions
>TOM  wrote -  (24 Dec 2000, 1745)
>I'm up to page 40 - what he's basically gone over is the failure ofso many
>like Harold Camping, for instance, who predicted the world to endin 1994,
>and how much this hurts the body of Christ and those who would continue to
>view Christianity as anything even still viable being that so manychicken
>little's have gotten so much publicity and made such big fools ofall of
>MARK  writes -
>I have heard of John Noe, though I haven?t read the book you are
>   Now I am still reading ?The Spirit Of Prophecy?, by MaxKing (Living
>Presence Ministries;, and he says things that blow
>me away sometimes.  I would recommend this book to anyone.
>I also was turned off by the phony prophecy prognosticators and
>dispensational datesetters distorting scripture.  They havingbeen making
>megabucks off this prophecy stuff, selling very poor imitations of
>interpretation, and sometime I believe God will put a stop to this
>merchandizing of His Word, a price will be paid.  This has really made
>christianity look pretty foolish.  Despite Hal Lindsey?s books,1988 (since
>this was 40 years after 1948 and Israel becoming a nation and 1981should
>have been the pre trib rapture) came and went and we?re all stillhere.  So
>many of them, Pentecost and Walvoord, some are more subtle datesetters.
>Dispensational churches keep this stuff hidden, but their fatherswere
>writing the same datesetting stuff during the two world wars, Jesusmust
>have come almost every year in this century.  Now with the phenomenal
>success of the ?Left Behind? series, maybe they will never stop.
>Message: 21
>    Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 05:47:19 -0500
>    From: "Mark Loftus" <>
>Subject: John Noe / changing one's view
>TOM  -  (24 Dec 2000, 1745)
>And that's where the - they're hoping I'm "teachable" comes in. Itreminds
>me of what Loftus wrote once - and I'm glad I caught it - he saidsomething
>like he had to change his whole way of thinking - something like that - but
>he said it much better and I was very impressed with the way he putit - I
>wonder if I still have that saved.....
>MARK  -
>Tom, I looked through my old answers and found this which you mayhave been
>referring to. I had written this in response to Owen, maybe this iswhat
>youwere referring to...  ?Yes, I was a futurist once and when Ifirst heard
>thepreterist view from this brother on the radio, I thought he had afew
>screwsloose upstairs, but I had to search things out.  It is very difficultfor a
>Christian to change their views after being in futurism for ten years, its
>like rewiring the brain, whatever brain cells I have that are still
>working.    I had to do a spiritual inventory and rethink of whyI believe what I
>As I think back concerning my change of view, it is no light thing.  For a
>christian to change their view in a major way like this, it seemsto take
>more than an act of Congress.  Religious people are known forclinging to
>their traditions.  There was a lot more than intellectual studyinvolved,
>myintellect has not yet caught up with my spirit and understanding.  I have
>toadmit there was some exciting times when I was first hearing this,and even
>though I didn?t intellectually agree with it all right away, I knewI
>couldn?t simply dismiss it.  There is a lot to take in and assimilate?  I
>can compare this major change in my views with the time when I wasa new
>born christian, it took my intellect a long time to catch up.
>Certainly it is easier to change ones view in a minor way, for example, in
>my COBU days and shortly thereafter I didn?t think much of John Calvin and
>his theology.  In fact, I remember being turned off by this teaching of 5
>point Calvinism and the TULIP, but after reading some of Calvin formyself
>Istarted to respect his ideas more, there is certainly a lot of truth
>concerning his ideas on predestination which I hadn?t seen up to that time,
>though I didn?t get to the point of that if you say the prayer youare in
>and always saved.  And I?m sure my views will continue to evolve.
>This goes back to the question concerning doctrinal disagreementsthat Rich
>Faretta raised, a very good question.  Certainly there is a point where the
>christians must unite despite the differences.  I know Jesus didn't say,
>?Blessed are the pure in head?; but there comes a point that thesematters
>of doctrine have to be dealt with.  Luther and Calvin had theirdifferences
>with Erasmus and other Roman Catholic leaders, at some point one hasto
>separate themselves from dead teaching... I know some teachers ofthe
>traditional religionists say that doctrinal differences aren?t important,
>oreven that doctrine itself isn't that important; which I take to mean ?sit
>under my teaching and don?t go against the party line?.  If doctrine is not
>important, why not be a muslim?  Some say, ?we aren?t into doctrine, but we
>want to luuvv everybody?, but if you don?t agree with their concept,then
>you don?t get their luuvv.  The true godly love (agape) is notdivorced
>fromtruth, today the false love that builds the ego is more popular, thatfalse
>compassion for everything that?s wrong, sort of like Jim Baker andthat
>other preacher who went after the harlot?s luuvv...  However,I have talked
>to some serious pastors who know that doctrine is an important issueand
>arehonest about it.  Those who are ?into theology? in our time,who want to
>know God more and more, will get these subtle put downs that whatothers
>aredoing is more important.
Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 527
>Date: 30 Dec 2000 11:04:25 -0000
>Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 08:51:06 -0800
>    From: "shenri" <>
>Subject: Re: Re: FLASHBACK a hippie picture#2
>yes Diane but the pictures are too big somehow and my server and thelist
>won`t accept them,only Imaging can cut them to a proper size,couldyou see
>them?Eric did.Mr bean?lol___________________________________________________________________

>Message: 8
>    Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:58:46 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: John Noe / changing one's view
> > Tom, I looked through my old answers and found this which you may have
>been  referring to. I had written this in response to Owen, maybe thisis what
>you  were referring to...  ?Yes, I was a futurist once and whenI first heard
>the  preterist view from this brother on the radio, I thought he hada few
>screws  loose upstairs, but I had to search things out.  It is verydifficult
>for aChristian to change their views after being in futurism for tenyears,
>its  like rewiring the brain, whatever brain cells I have that are still
>Yes, that's it!
> >   I had to do a spiritual inventory and rethink of whyI believe what I
> > believe?.
> > As I think back concerning my change of view, it is no light thing.
>Absolutely.  I finished the Noe book.  Fascinating.
>On the way home, I picked up the paper while waiting for my ChineseFood.
>(I'll put the rest in the fridge while I'm snowed in this weekend...)
>- on the cover of the Northeast Times is the picture of an old womanand it
>says, "She has a novel idea."
>So I check out the article, she's a writer.
>    "The crux of the work, said the 76-year-old author,is her belief
>     that the end of the world is not at hand,despite doomsday
>and later - -
>    "When discussing the precepts of the novel withfrustrated clergy,
>Polsky's stock response is: 'Your argument is not with me,
>it's with historians and the biblical passages.'"
>       This is from the December 27thNortheast Times
>  (although I don't think this would
>       be archived yet....)
>Eileen Polsky's book Zoheleth is available on
>   "Though a fictional work, the novel draws on factual
>     historic texts and events and builds a storyaround it -
>     primarily the Roman conquest of the Jewsaround 70 A.D."
>(the shattering of the power of the holy people - and the close
>of the age...)
> > For a  christian to change their view in a major way like this, it seemsto
>take  more than an act of Congress.  Religious people are known for clinging
>to  their traditions.  There was a lot more than intellectual study
>involved, myintellect has not yet caught up with my spirit and understanding.
>Message: 9
>    Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 19:52:03 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Immediacy and Intermediacy
>In a message dated 12/29/00 5:46:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
><< Neil,  When I referred to direct word above, I gavesome scriptural
>addresses   (please see above).  I notice that when you use the terminologyyou place
>it  in quotes and do not give any scriptural references.  But I have a sense
>that  you refer to past posts from you to me informing me of my errors.  Is
>that  what you mean by "direct word"?  If it is not, please forgive me for
>  misunderstanding you.  However, if you did mean that your posts are
>direct  revelations from God, I beg to differ with you.   >>
>        You have had 'direct word'from us here on this list, but you have
>no'direct word' at all from the Bible, there being no 'direct word'in it for
>any living soul. By the very indirectness of parable itself, the Sonof God
>put on display the indirectness of God's Word; and by the ancientpassing
>ofboth those who wrote and those to whom they wrote, the immediacy with which
>their exchange was made has passed with them. We are left with a template
>through whose intermediacy we find parallels and equivalencies within which
>immediacy thrills once again. Otherwise we were left to wish, as somany
>Christians do, that we had been present to Jesus in the days of Hisflesh,
>instead of two thousand years and an ocean removed from Him.   - Neil

>Message: 12
>    Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 01:32:00 -0500
>    From: "Diana Clarke" <>
>Subject: FLASHBACK a hippie picture#2
>Hi Sylvain,
>I understand that a *(tif) image format may not be viewable to everyone.
>Not all Windows Operating systems include " Kodak Imaging" (whichis the
>only viewer which would open it.  Once I had the image open,I saved it as
>a Bitmap (* bmp); Then I opened it in "windows Paint"  ThereI was able to
>resize and crop it.   Finally I saved it as a Gif, and Jpegwhich makes it
>easy to transfer in email.  Viola.
>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 528
>Date: 31 Dec 2000 11:13:00 -0000

>Message: 2
>    Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:06:56 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: John Noe / changing one's view
>Brother Mark,
>I've included your following paragraph about doctrine and truth etc.and I
>offer a well said indeed : )
>On many occasions scripture records Paul taking a firm stand overthe issue
>of false doctrine.
>And I will be so bold as to make this claim-it is impossible to loveas
>Christ intended us if we hold a low view of biblical doctrine. Thosewho
>believe that are self delusional. Why do I say that? Because onlythru the
>doctrines in scripture impressed upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit,do we
>come to understand why and how to love one another. The world can'tteach
>usthis. Only God's Word can.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 3
>    Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:27:44 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: FLASHBACK a hippie picture#2
>Hey mate - what's this I hear about the band getting
>together for a reunion tour?  All you need is a replacement
>for the drummer......  Or how about a greatest hits re-release?
>Message: 4
>    Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:44:10 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: sola scriptura
> > Brother Mark,
> > I've included your following paragraph about doctrine and truth etc. and
>I  offer a well said indeed : )
> > On many occasions scripture records Paul taking a firm stand over the
>issueof false doctrine.
> > And I will be so bold as to make this claim-it is impossible to love as
> > Christ intended us if we hold a low view of biblical doctrine.Those who
> > believe that are self delusional. Why do I say that? Because only thru
>thedoctrines in scripture impressed upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit, do
>wecome to understand why and how to love one another. The world can't
>teach us  this. Only God's Word can.
>I would say a well said indeed, here also, but here's the rub -
>and you already know - we all look at the same scriptures and come
>up with so many different things.  Cobu bases their insanityon sola
>scriptura so they say.
>The problem is - more pointedly - our ancestry.  Our view that's been
>handed down to us in a tainted translation.  Or tainted traditions.
>I'll never forget Mario Murillo being at a church on Easter Sunday
>commenting the only thing alive in the place were the flowers at thefront
>of the church.
>Talk about being diametrically opposed - was it Lincoln or one ofthe
>generals that commented the North and the south killing each other
>off  "both prayed to the same God."
>It's not biblical doctrine that's wrong.  It will never be.
>It's our interpretation that leads us to believe Cobu's right andthe rest
>of the world is out of step.  That kind of thing.
>That's where tolerance comes in.  And one thing I can't
>tolerate is intolerance.
>About our heritage and foundation and translation there is much tosay
>- but I won't go off on that thesis now.  Just consider thisalso -
>Stewart'sname is in the front of that "literal Greek" translation - or something
>likethat.   Don't you think, should Stewart have "helped andcontributed"
>to the translation of those scriptures, don't you think some thingsin that
>book are going to be askew?
>You do?
>Message: 5
>    Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:47:43 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: John Noe / changing one's view
>When I read Toxic Faith I was nonplused by the book as
>I had already 5-10 cult recovery books already recently
>read as I was voraciously reading whatever I could get my
>hands on at that time to help "rewire" what Stewart had
>helped me set up in my brain.
>Then I read in Randy Watters letters to the editor (Free
>Minds Journal) that someone wrote Toxic Faith was the book
>that opened their eyes and provided much insight in helping
>them figure out their predicament.
>And I thought, had I started with that book first maybe I
>too would have been that impressed with it.
>So anyone anywhere down the road with Preterism - John Noe's
>book Beyond the End Times is introductory in nature and just
>      what I needed but maybe not you.
>When preterism was first discussed on this list I thought that
>   to be one of the craziest things I had ever heard yet.
>I went to a website that was suggested and saw all this
>stuff that was so foreign to me and the only thing I could
>make out for sure was that that these people had "enemies"
>      and they had links for you to readabout them.
>Well, already you're on the wrong foot, buddy.  And I quickly
>     left the page not wanted to infected anyfurther.
>It reminds me of what I've heard said about the goodness of
>Jesus and why Wayne calls his program "Let's talk about Jesus."
>     Because the other stuff isn't worth it.  If He be lifted up
>He will draw all men to Himself.  He is altogether lovely
>and very attractive.  And if you'll notice also in the gospels
>        people seemed to love tobe around Him.
>So why will Christians get on their soapboxes and say we're
>    against this, this and this, and we're againstthat, and
>that is evil you pagan.  And don't read this and burn that.
>Knowing what someone is against isn't as attractive as knowing
>       what they're for.  And seehow great what we're for is!
>Anyway - this past year I have read two truly great books:
>Rethinking the Wineskin and Beyond the End Times.
>Both of these books are introductory in nature and biblically
>and scripturally prove the goodness of the good things we
>should be aware of because the body of Christ cannot remain
>     ignorant of these better things.
>         Need a lift?
>Message: 8
>    Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:29:18 -0500
>    From: "Raynard Merritt" <>
>Subject: Fw: 46 Things that never happen in Star Trek.htm
>46 Things that never happen in Star Trek
>"46 Things that never happen in Star Trek"
>1) The Enterprise runs into a mysterious energy field of a type thatit has
>encountered several times before.
>2) The Enterprise goes to check up on a remote outpost of scientists, who
>are all perfectly all right.
>3) The Enterprise comes across a Garden-of-Eden-like planet called
>Paradise, where everyone is happy all the time. However, everythingis soon
>revealed to be exactly as it seems.
>4) The crew of the Enterprise discover a totally new life-form, which later
>turns out to be a rather well-known old life-form, wearing a sillyhat.
>5) The crew of the Enterprise are struck by a strange alien plague,for
>which the cure is found in the well-stocked sickbay.
>6) An enigmatic being composed of pure energy attempts to interfaceto the
>Enterprise's computer, only to find out that it has forgotten to bring the
>right leads.
>7) A power surge on the Bridge is rapidly and correctly diagnosedas a
>faulty capacitor by the highly trained and competent engineering staff.
>8) A power surge on the Bridge fails to electrocute the user of acomputer
>panel, due to a highly sophisticated 24th century surge protectionfeature
>called a 'fuse'.
>9) The Enterprise ferries an alien VIP from one place to another without
>serious incident.
>10) The Enterprise is captured by a vastly superior alien intelligence,
>which does not put them on trial.
>11) The Enterprise separates as soon as there is any danger.
>12) The Enterprise gets involved in an enigmatic, strange, and dangerous
>situation, and there are no pesky aliens they can blame it on in theend.
>13) The Enterprise is captured by a vastly inferior alien intelligence,
>which they easily pacify by offering it some sweeties.
>14) The Enterprise is involved in a bizarre time-warp phenomenon,which is
>in some way unconnected with the 20th century.
>15) Somebody takes out a shuttle and it doesn't explode or crash.
>16) A major Starfleet emergency breaks out near the Enterprise, but
>fortunately some other ships in the area are able to deal with itto
>everyone's satisfaction.
>17) The shields on the Enterprise stay up during a battle.
>18) The Enterprise visits the Klingon Home World on a bright, sunny,day.
>19) An attempt at undermining the Klingon-Federation alliance is discovered
>without anyone noting that such an attempt, if successful, "wouldrepresent
>a fundamental shift of power throughout the quadrant."
>20) A major character spends the entire episode in the Holodeck without a
>single malfunction trapping him/her there.
>21) Picard hears the door chime and doesn't bother to say "Come."
>22) Picard doesn't answer a suggestion with "Make it so!"
>23) Picard walks up to the replicator and says, "Coke on ice."
>24) Counselor Troi states something other than the blindingly obvious.
>25) Mood rings come back in style, jeopardizing Counselor Troi's position.
>26) Worf and Troi finally decide to get married, only to have KatePulaski
>show up and disrupt the wedding by shouting, "Did he read you lovepoetry?!
>Did he serve you poisonous tea?! He's MINE!" (Obviously written before
>Worf-Dax wedding on DS9 - LadyHawke)
>27) When Worf tells the bridge officers that something is enteringvisual
>range, no one says "On screen."
>28) Worf actually gives another vessel more than 2 seconds to respond to
>one of the Enterprise's hails.
>29) Worf kills Wesley by mistake in the holodeck.
>30) Wesley Crusher gets beaten up by his classmates for being a smarmy git,
>and consequently has a go at making some friends of his own age fora
>31) Wesley saves the ship, the Federation, and the Universe as weknow it,
>and EVERYONE is grateful (including the Net).
>32) The warp engines start playing up a bit, but seem to sort themselves
>out after a while without any intervention from boy genius WesleyCrusher.
>33) Wesley Crusher tries to upgrade the warp drive and they work better
>than ever.
>34) Beverly Crusher manages to go through a whole episode withouthaving a
>hot flush and getting breathless every time Picard is in the room.
>35) Guinan forgets herself, and breaks into a stand up comedy routine.
>36) Data falls in love with the replicator.
>37) Kirk (or Riker) falls in love with a woman on a planet he visits, and
>isn't tragically separated from her at the end of the episode.
>38) The Captain has to make a difficult decision about a less advanced
>people, which is made a great deal easier by the Starfleet Prime Directive.
>39) An unknown ensign beams down as part of an away team and livesto tell
>the tale.
>40) Spock or Data is fired from his high-ranking position for notbeing
>able to understand the most basic nuances of about one in three sentences
>that anyone says to him.
>41) Kirk's hair remains consistent for more that 1 consecutive episode.
>42) Kirk gets into a fistfight and doesn't rip his shirt.  (Oreven, Kirk
>DOESN'T get into a fistfight...)
>43) Kirk doesn't end up kissing the troubled guest-female before she
>doesn't sacrifice herself for him.
>44) Scotty doesn't mention the laws of physics
>45) Spock isn't the only crew member not affected by new weapon/attack by
>alien race/etc!! due to his "darn green blood" or "bizarre Vulcan
>physiology" and thus he cannot save the day.
>46) The episode ends without Bones & Kirk laughing at Spock'sinability to
>understand the joke, and he doesn't raise his eyebrow.

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 529
>Date: 1 Jan 2001 09:43:15 -0000

>Message: 4
>    Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:57:53 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura
>Brother Tom,
>Happy New Year bro!
>Regarding your comment: "The problem is - more pointedly - our ancestry.
>Our view that's been
> > handed down to us in a tainted translation."
>Please be very specific about what you mean by "our ancestry" andby
>"tainted translation".
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 6
>    Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:30:31 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>Dear Carol,  Happy New Year to you too.  I've been goingaround with the
>Tershies, but I check in now and then.  Ed G.
>Message: 7
>    Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:47:34 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>     Sometimes the debates on here, in my opinion,can get pretty intense.
>There have been times when I have needed to pull back some and takea rest.
>Perhaps others are feeling this way too.
>     BTW, this weekend makes 15 years since Itotally left COBU.
>Message: 8
>    Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 00:55:27 -0000
>    From: "Carol  " <>
>Subject: Re: 15 yrs out of COBU
>Congratulations!!  I can't pin point my departure time like that...
>Isn't it amazing how quickly 15 yrs goes by.  I will be married13
>yrs March 2001.  It sure seems like longer than that!
>Message: 10
>    Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:59:08 EST
>    From:
>Subject: Re: Re: 15 yrs out of COBU
>Congrats Carol...I will be married 13 years on January 30.  Ihad prepared
>everything for my wedding but forgot that I'd need something overmy
>weddinggown for the outside because it was winter.  January 30 ended up being one
>ofthe warmest days of winter 55 degrees and was I ever grateful.

>Subject: [sharpen] Digest Number 530
>Date: 2 Jan 2001 10:10:54 -0000

>Message: 2
>    Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 11:13:28 -0500
>    From: Mary <>
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>Hello Carol,
>I haven't posted for a while ... been pretty busy since I started
>working 30 hours a week. With us, it's never usually one thing atonce
>... Rick broke down and said he'd home school Robert (started around
>Thanksgiving) ... everyone got sick and I had to go to RI by myselfto
>see my mom ... Rachel auditioned at Ithaca College on Dec. 9 on violin
>and 4 days later broke her right wrist in 2 places (her life seemsto
>have come to a grinding halt ... can't work at the theater, but they
>call her in every once in a while to tear tickets). She should gether
>cast off ... in mid-Feb ... I guess that's it for auditions. Oh yea,
>and in Dec. I received a letter from Dept. of Elderly that I had to
>deal with ... but it seems things are ok for the moment. I've gotto
>get my mom back here in the spring so I can settle more stuff ...
>property and houses and I am the worst decision maker in the world.
>Hope everyone had a nice holiday ... we did for the most part, despite
>the upsets.
>God bless you,
>Mrs. Robinson
>Message: 3
>    Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:40:24 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: Is There Yet Another List???
>Sister Mary,
>Happy New Year to you and Rick sis.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 5
>    Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:44:53 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: Re: 15 yrs out of COBU
>Sister Maureen,
>Congrats to you sis on your upcoming wedding anniversary.
>Our12th will be on May 12.
>Happy New Year sis.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 12:52:28 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
> > Brother Tom,
> > Happy New Year bro!
> > Regarding your comment: "The problem is - more pointedly - ourancestry.
> > Our view that's been  handed down to us in a tainted translation."
> > Please be very specific about what you mean by "our ancestry" and by
> > "tainted translation".
>      Happy New Year to you and to everybody!
>   (Yikes, I got a twinge of hearing Mr. Potter saying it!)
>I am incapable of being very specific as I don't jot down all thethings
>  that go into my brain morphing this ethereal ethos I seem
>to be attacking.  It's more just a matter of life and growingup
>   in whatever circumstances -  the "hand we've beendealt."
>Tainted translation - it's the little things - like what would Stewart
>have put into that Bible?  And it's all kinds of fundamentalistviews
>- whatever the person translating pet peeves were at the time.
>     Translation is in itself interpreting.  We all know that.
>Remember that Seinfeld commercial where he goes to Great Britain
>and no one laughs at his jokes?  Then he goes for a cab rideand gets
>to know the matrix and then he's able to communicate.
>     (Wow, was that a wicked googely!!)  That's an
>example of just an ocean away.  Remove that by centuries andanother
>   language - and well, Katie bar the door.  Yes, Ido believe "I'm
>     watching over my word to perform it."  But I also believe our
>translations are tainted.  They would have to be.  If youwould sum
>up this dissertation right here - wouldn't that be your interpretation?
>And wouldn't it be "tainted" by your views?  Not yours, of course,
>           but youget the picture...
>We're always changing.  At least some of us.  I know yousaid last
>  year there were those who wrote things that opened your mindto
>    things you hadn't previously.
>And yes, it seems most translations are written from a futurist POV.
>         "Columbus discoveredAmerica."
>It's the way we've been raised up to think.  You can train
>up a child, but it isn't neccesarily always the way he should go.
>Sometimes we ram in our own ideas.  It used to be tradition
>for the son to take over the father's business.  And it used
>    to be that the father would work with his son.
>         Times change things.
>  Some things change - some linger and don't die.
>If you can read and say "Columbus discovered America" and not
>   think there's anything wrong there - then that's a casein
>      point.
>   I'm trying not to get on a rant here.  No one isto be
>  vilified.  These are just facts that no one, possibly,has
>         asked us to face.
>     As Abbe Louis Evely's book is titled: ThatMan is You.
>     And when I wrote about this before - Owensaid, "Hey, that's
>     me you're talking about."     And I responded in kind.
>  This is so fascinating - and once again has to do with
>matrix and mindset.  They're so important.  And anotherexample
>   of possibly not being able to see the forest for thetrees.
>I myself have not "seen" this per se - but it's something that
>I have heard this here and that over there and I'm just trying
>   to make sense of everything just like everybody else.
>(well, some people do have it all figured out, but that's
>      another matter - if they would onlytell us!)
>   Like the "2nd Coming."  I'll never forget when theGulf War
>broke out - our Bible study group was in the book of 1st John.
>But the leader of this study took a vote as to who would rather
>study Daniel.  Another brother and I where the only ones who
>   wanted to stay on course.  The others thought theyhad a
>      front row seat to Armageddon.
>           And thusit's gone on so many
>times - I guess I have that advantage of hearing about Jesus
>   coming back being predicted so much it loses its mustard
>somewhat.  The way I reconciled all this was that, maybe I
>won't be zapped outta here - but certainly, anytime - I don't know
>    when, "my time's up" and I will go to meet my Maker.
>But more recently - I have heard there are four ways of
>       "looking at the end."
>     I never knew there was more than one.
>   I don't like the labels "futurist" and "preterist."
>Both those words sound funny to me.  I had liked to lump all
>   the pious - self-righteous "church goers" as fundamentalists.
>       I have been raised - I guessstarting with Cobu that
>            "Jesus is returning soon!"
>I never knew there was any other thing to think.  I knew allthe
>   doomsday profits were a taco short of a combo platter.
>       (after a while; I didn't catchon at first...)
>But I still stuck with the premise that "Jesus is coming soon!"
>So in that respect - that's one way my "ancestry" has tainted my
>     view.
>   You understand - the overview of our ancestry is European.
>Actually - Noe states how Columbus read and trusted scripture
>   and took a big leap of faith.  He knew from Isaiahthat the
>world was a circle and he wasn't going to sail of the edge of
>         the earth like allthose other guys.
>    And this brings me to - a paradigm shift.
>We have all kinds of views that morph into our realm because
>              of who knows what.
>I digress again - but I think you'll find it interesting :
>    In Arlen Spector's book - he starts it off poignantly-
>    He talks of this gathering of prospective presidential
>    candidates  for stating their policies.  It was organized by
>    Ross Perot - and Spector thinks it was more toget Perot in
>    the spotlight than to be a fact finder on whatthese candidates
>     were about.
>      Well, at one point in the questioning,one of the reporters
>    confronts Spector with, something like,
>    "Wouldn't you say the faith of the country trustingpoliticians
>    went way down with your single bullet theory?"
>               Wham!
>     A very awkward silence.
>   And a very good observation.
>Among other things in the book - Spector puts to rest the
>    single bullet theory.  Haven't you thoughtthat it was nuts?
>    I still wonder about all the dead witnesses andthat guy in a
>    French jail who says he'll talk when they let himgo.  Something
>          like that.
>    Well Spector says you don't start with a theoryand then try to
>    get the facts to prove it.  Spector is meticulous.  You look at
>    the facts - and from that you develop your theory.
>    And I must say - when he presented his side ofthe story -
>    it's the facts that support the theory and notthe tail
>    wagging the dog like we've been led to believe.
>           I thinkthat's a very good example there.
>        (that's a great argumentin Noe's book - facts
>     supporting the theory.  Utterly fascinatingSpock!)
>It's like Stewart coming up with "the six steps of love" or any
>number of things.  He stated his thesis and then rammed all the
>scripture into place.  I suppose  it made a lot of sense,and I
>certainly sat there copiously taking notes.... But we now know
>       there's something rotten in Denmark.
>Hey, a couple years ago I was sent a book called "Returning
>       to Orthodoxy."  Somethinglike that.
>These dear brothers were into witnessing and the Jesus movement
>   in 1960's.  They wanted to find out exactly whatJesus would
>     want the church to be like.  And fromall their intense
>searching and struggle they surmised that the church most like
>     what Jesus desired was the Greek Orthodox.
>        You can pick up your jawnow.
>            If you can.
>We've been sold a bill of goods. Or, let's put it this way,
>I've come across "stuff" that shows why the other stuff was
>   so lifeless.  But then again, I got to say that'sfor me.
>      That's the way I saw it; see it.
>I've read a lot of books - they've helped me.  All one needs
>      to do is think about it for themselves.  Ask God.
>  I would have to say, quite honestly that I am more confusedthan
>   ever - but am much gladder to see more doors opened thanlive
>          with my formerdead ends.
>   I mean, I like to get practical.  It was evidentthat all these
>people going on and on about we're going to raptured any day now -
>   to me knowing I personally could leave through my death.
>          That's practical.
>When do you get cosmic and when do you get practical?
>Well this is one case where the all the ones crying wolf
>and the end is near have really gotten me bored with them.
>They're like faith healers.  I don't want to get into that
>but to say I've heard that, "Yes, we fake a few miracles;
>        but that helps to get thingsgoing."
>Gene said if you're in that ministry you HAVE to fake it
>    because healing simply doesn't happen all the time.
>At least Kathryn Kuhlman would admit some came in their
>wheel chairs and left in their wheel chairs.  And I love her
>statement: "The people she's scared of the most are the ones who
>KNOW why those people left in their wheelchairs."
>          Cause she justdidn't know.
>     BTW, now that I have her book Nothing IsImpossible With God
>     in front of me - what I remember about thepeople in the book
>     was that they were so normal.  I mean,pick a house on the
>     street - and that could be the next healing.  Sort of like
>     those Touched by an Angel programs.
>"All things are possible with God."  Well is God some practical
>    joker?  (This is another point I've expressedbefore) -
>  Someone prays to God or asks Jesus "please show me the way."
>My brother's friend said the next day a JW came to the door
>and he's been a Witness ever since.  Or they would run into
>   a Moonie, A Hari, or they may have run into you or mewhile
>       we were in Cobalt.
>Why does God let that happen?  One of my answers that I
>  think attempts to explain it is where in the gospels it says
>"and he appeared to them in THIS way."  Inferring there's
>       different ways for Him to appear.
>   I guess God knows about diversity - He created it!
>And he knows better than us "different strokes for different folks."
>   I think scripture even provides a bit of an explanationwhen
>Paul talked about some eat meat, and some don't.  And one thinks
>   this days is this and the other that.  Is it foodor days off
>           he isconcerned with here?  No.
>It's belief's and convictions.  What day was dedicated to God.
>    And the meat also had the idol issue attached toit.
>And Paul just encouraged them not to condemn each other.
>Let each be fully convinced in his own mind - and tolerate the other.
>"Do you not remember when I was with you that I told you this?"
>- wouldn't you like to have been a fly on the wall for those
>conversations?!  I think, one could surmise - the meat was in
>   the meetings - and the letters are the scraps.  The letters
>     certainly have to do with scrapes.  Anyway...
>Diversity. (I hate that PC word - and shut up and learn English!
>Yes, you could say I'm still "pro-Euro" or more accurately: American)
>So even though I said "ancestry," I would have to say the
>    main thing is our mindset.  Getting into themind.
>And this is a subject also, isn't it?  Why I remember in 1989
>Stewart was talking about "the minds of the Apostles" as if
>that was something he had a grasp on.  That everything now
>founded on grace opened the door to understanding how and
>what they were thinking.  Hey, I went for it. But that was my
>        matrix.  A lot ofus went for it.
>(You want a glimpse of that matrix read Revolution by Gene
>Edwards.  Message Ministry will send you the book for free)
>    Being in their matrix - the Apostle's, that is.
>Would Rome be something like our political system?  More in
>that - should you wish to change it or have it go your way -
>    you may as well forget it.  It's a force ofa farce that will do
>        what it's going to do andthat's the end of it.
>   I mean what would be it like to really be in their shoes?
>Another thing I've been thinking about lately - what if you
>were there - I mean - what if you saw or heard that Jesus
>walked on water?
>     Only three of them saw the transfiguration.
>There's this cosmic stuff (for lack of a better term right now)
>   and then there's the practical - which one loved more,or
>      YOU give something to eat.
>I suppose our ancestry - I was raised Methodist.  And therefore
>   I come up with statements like "He suffered with them."
>      Is this making any sense?
>Message: 7
>    Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 13:22:19 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
> >   I mean what would be it like to really be in theirshoes?
> > Another thing I've been thinking about lately - what if you
> > were there - I mean - what if you saw or heard that Jesus
> > walked on water?
> >     Only three of them saw the transfiguration.
>Along those lines - I was thinking about the fantastic things we
>     can see through computerized stuff and specialeffects.
>And there are movies about mummy's and zombies and all sorts
>of things - and we readily watch this stuff growing up, and think
>   it to be superstitious and ridiculous while at the sametime we
>     can read Mt 27.52,53 and not bat an eyelash.
>I'm not saying these things aren't true at all.  But just thinkof how
>      fantastic they are.
>   I do think the scriptures are honest.
>I mean - don't you think any one of us would have been so excited
>   to hear Peter's voice we would have left him out in thecold?
>     (momentarily)
>Message: 8
>    Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:54:46 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
>Brother Tom,
>Greetings in Christ, bro.
>This may come in bits and pieces. Here is the first piece.
>I don't buy into the premise that our view of Christ has been handeddown
>ina "tainted translation".
>God has protected His Word since He first caused men to start recording it.
>Look at one verse, John 3:16:
>NIV="For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that
>whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
>KJV=For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,that
>whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlastinglife
>NASB=""For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begottenSon, that
>whoever  believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life
>RSV=For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever
>believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
>Darby=For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that
>whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal
>NKJV=For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that
>whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
>Now look at a paraphrased version of the same verse:WE=God loved theworld
>so very, very much that he gave his only Son. Because he did that,everyone
>who believes in him will not lose his life, but will live for ever.
>Even the New World Translation (which actually is quite tainted inmany
>aspects) says="For God loved the world so much that he gave his only
>begotten Son in order that everyone exercising faith in him mightlot be
>destroyed but have everlasting life".
>Tom, the claim that our translations are tainted just doesn't flyin the
>face of comparisons and in the face of God's promises.
>Peter wrote us:
>"So I will always remind you of these things, even though you knowthem and
>are firmly established in the truth you now have.I think it is rightto
>refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,because I
>know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear
>to me.And I will make every effort to see that after my departureyou will
>always be able to remember these things."
>Our Lord Himself said,
>"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into alltruth.
>He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, andhe will
>tell you what is yet to come.
>Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means passaway
>And Paul writes: "For I want you to know how greatly I strive foryou, and
>for those at La-odice'a, and for all who have not seen my face,thattheir
>hearts may be encouraged as they are knit together in love, to haveall the
>riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery,of
>Christ,in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
>He says "assured understanding".
>And in the same passage Paul warns us :"See to it that no one makesa prey
>of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition,
>according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to
>Those who make such bold claims that God's Word can no longer be trusted
>arejust plain lying.
>Last for now is what Luke and Peter said: "
>Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that havebeen
>fulfilled among us,just as they were handed down to us by those whofrom
>thefirst were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself
>have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemedgood
>also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent
>Theophilus,sothat you may know the certainty of the things you have been taughtWe did
>not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and
>coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty".
>You can trust that God has kept His Word for you Tom, to be understood by
>you personally for as long as you live.
>Later, bro.
>Yours in Christ
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton

>Message: 9
>    Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 19:15:46 -0500
>    From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
>Subject: this goes on to the end
> > I don't buy into the premise that our view of Christ has been handed
>down in  a "tainted translation".
>You may not buy it now - but I just earlier thought of some "proof."
>However - I'm just saying that the devil is in the details - a little here
>alittle there - and then people take something and run with it - (specifics
>wouldbe nice here, huh?)
>What you have presented here next - all the comparisons is very impressive.
>The shortest gospel message is preserved throughout them all - andthat is
>very reassuring.  But.... and I agree God's watching over Hisword etc. -
>but there's still more to be mined from what was originally writtendown
>for us...
> > God has protected His Word since He first caused men to start recording
> > Look at one verse, John 3:16: NIV="For God so loved KJV=For God so loved
> > NASB=""For God so loved the world, RSV=For God so loved the world t
> > Darby=For God so loved the world NKJV=For God so loved the world
>One of the specifics came to me while I was just out driving.
>Ever notice how thoughts come to you while you're driving?
>    At least they do to me...  I used to havea mini cassette
>recorder (like you know who) but now I have a digital one.
>          It comes inhandy.
>I thought that I had posted this before, and probably have,
>but it bears repeating now.  (I think the list is just a little
>       over 2 years old now)
>This weighed in heavy on my thoughts on translation: Andy
>Gaus wrote what he called "The Unvarnished Gospels."
>this is from the acknowledgments:
>     "...After all, the person who picks up thisbook is in for a
>     surprise.  My publisher's first reactionto a first draft of
>     Matthew was that it went beyond the boundsof proper trans-
>     lating to alter the text as much as I obviouslyhad; why
>     should the reader be less suspicious?  What have I "done" to
>     the text?
>        Actually, no more thanany translator, and rather less
>     than some translators.  In any event,this is a translation
>     rather than an adaptation or popularization:it's intended
>     not to simplify the Gospels but to reproducethe simplicity
>     of style they already have.  In short,the surprise is not
>     in what has been done to the text, but inwhat the text is
>     like in the first place."
>Then there's a preface by George Witterschein that's eight
>pages long.  So he has a lot to say about Andy Gaus's
>translation.  Basically, he starts off by saying that every
>Easter he would read the gospel of John in Greek...
>     "What an exercise that is!  How beautifuland simple, John's
>     Greek sentences, and how affecting, in theway that only
>     simple, heartfelt language can be!  Each year, I find myself
>     burning to share this Greek Gospel with myfamily and friends,
>     indeed with everybody.  I daydream that,all over the world,
>     people will drop what they are doing, marchoff to the local
>     traditional liberal arts college, and enrollin the Classics
>     Department for Introduction to the Greekof the New Testament."
>He concludes that Mr. Gaus's translation is the next best
>           thing.
>Then Mr. Witterschein goes on to say that a lot of translations
>   these days borrow from former translations which were
>interpretations with their own "Christian" views. (St. Jerome,
>Martin Luther, the King James scholars) "...the comments of
>theologians from St. Augustine to Karl Rahner, all turn on a
>          "Christianized"view of the text."
>    So, if he is correct - a different mindset waspervading
>the original intent and was infecting the translation so that
>the original mindset was overshadowed and disappearing.
>That's some of what I gather from the eight pages of preface.
>And what Andy Gaus did was translate what was written - the
>best way to get across what was actually being said - and not
>      trying to be a theology at the sametime.
>I think we are all aware of the way certain clergy were when
>it comes to "concealing" what might not be good for those
>lower down in the hierarchy - which was someone made later
>by man.  Jesus never intended it to be so - and said directly
>it shall not be so among you.  But, I'm not "coming down" on
>anyone with anywhere they are now.  These things have been
>established - and they shall not be moved, it seems.  Why,
>I think it would be accurate to say that we in Cobu - every
>time we "voted" for "President" of Cobu - we were re-electing
>            king Saul.
>Anyway - these two fellows (Gaus and Witterschein)seem to
>think the Bible is a great book that's been messed with over
>the years.   If you can get a Greek scholar with an openmind
>  - maybe he could tell us. But don't ask that Greek scholar
>       Traill  - I think you'llget a tainted view...
> > And Paul writes: "For I want you to know how greatly I strive for you,
>and  for those at La-odice'a, and for all who have not seen my face,that
>their  hearts may be encouraged as they are knit together in love, tohave all
>the  riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery,of
> > Christ,in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
> > He says "assured understanding".
>We can have assured understanding if sat under Paul or listened
>to those talk who had heard Paul.  I don't trust some of theseguys
>down through the ages who added their take on things to the mix.
>I would rather have the original assured understanding - which is
>    attainable  I would think - or at least worthstriving for.
> > And in the same passage Paul warns us :"See to it that no one makes a
>prey  of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition,
> > according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to
> > Christ.
>Now you're going off a bit over the deep end here.  Whereas Iagree with
>the scripture - and think it more supports what I have put forward- the
>fact that human tradition has infected parts of our translations and
> > Those who make such bold claims that God's Word can no longer be trusted
>are  just plain lying.
>I didn't say that.  I said the translations.  John 3:16is safe as you have
>pointedout.  And probably the majority of scriptureis "okay" - it's just what
>kindof glasses we're going to put on whenwe read it.  Remember, in our
>            spiritual youth, we read the Bible through Stewart's glasses.
>                But when I became a man, I donned my own glasses.
>(Perhaps I'm a teenager.....)
> > You can trust that God has kept His Word for you Tom, to be understood
>by  you personally for as long as you live.
>     I believe.  Help my unbelief.
>I do think the spinmeisters through the ages have messed with
>words to suit their own agendas.  Salvation is still there -and
>what is important overall.  But the great subtleties - and how
>great and good Jesus is - I think end up missing sometimes.
>I think Lifton would call doctrine over person.  Jesus seemed
>to really care about people personally.  Not "attacking" anyone
>or any denomination - it's just that God's words allowed to
>become impersonal - sort of like they did in Cobu (and we were
>so "close" to Him!) - I think we deserve better.  I think weall
>would want the best we could get in helping our relationship
>    with Jesus.
> >
> > Later, bro.
> > Yours in Christ
> > Sola Scriptura,
> > Steve Saxton
>parts of the original message were deleted for brevity
>Message: 10
>    Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:45:44 -0500
>    From: "o camp" <>
>Subject: precision
>Stewart's name is in the front of that "literal Greek" translationor
>something like that.
>From Owen:
>        Dear Tom
>        It's called an interlinearversion.  His name is one in a list of
>(about) 8 "contributors", (or is it the "acknowledgements" page)?  My
>theory is that he (ST)contributed $, and he makes the Cobots thinkhe
>contributed scholarship.
>though I sometimes have the right to be angry,
>     I never have the right to be cruel.
>Message: 11
>    Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 21:27:03 -0500
>    From: "Steve Saxton" <>
>Subject: Re: this goes on to the end
>Brother Tom,
>I have a Nelson new testament called "The NKJV Greek English Interlinear
>NewTestament". It has word studies and the NKJV parallel text. It isneat
>because the Greek is written above the English translation. I justlooked
>upJohn 3: 16 and it is about the same as the others I sent you.
>You ought to consider getting an interlinear yourself.
>Yours in Christ,
>Sola Scriptura,
>Steve Saxton
>Message: 13
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:13:02 -0500
>    From: "tledonne" <>
>Subject: Re: stargazing
>I've been seeing Venus most eves on my way to work.  Around 5pm or so,
>it's one of the brighter things in the sky at that time.
>Sometimes on the way home, around 2 or 3 am, I see this one star that seems
>to turn red now and then--not a constant red, but seems to turn redoff and
>on irregularly.  Any idea what that is?  It would be towards the north
>somewhat, not particularly large, but stands out some because of this red
>thing it does.  Still didn't get the binoculars, but was ableto see the
>moon really well with the telescope one night--all the craters, etc.  No
>luck seeing a star through the telescope though.
>Message: 14
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:46:44 -0500
>    From: "tledonne" <>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
> >           Andthus it's gone on so many
> > times - I guess I have that advantage of hearing about Jesus
> >   coming back being predicted so much it loses its mustard
> > somewhat.  The way I reconciled all this was that, maybe I
> > won't be zapped outta here - but certainly, anytime - I don't know
> >    when, "my time's up" and I will go to meet myMaker.
>Tom, I agree with the above.   There's a sense of beingprepared, whether
>it's through death or the second coming.  There's been talk about the the
>OTand NT being for the people back then and us just reading their letters,
>getting the scraps.  But I think I feel just the opposite.  They had the
>bodily Jesus with them.  We are then the ones more in need ofthe written
>account.  I think of that verse in I Peter that says, " The prophets who
>prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquiredabout
>this salvation; they inquired what person or time was indicated bythe
>Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and
>the subsequent glory.  It was revealed to them that they wereserving not
>themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced toyou by
>those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sentfrom
>heaven, things into which angels long to look."   I guessI would feel like
>we were second class, poor souls left to fend for ourselves and makesense
>of the growing confusion, if we couldn't even stand on the Word.  But we
>can.  "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."  To say
>God is watching over His word to perform it is saying alot.

>Message: 16
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:58:52 -0500
>    From: "tledonne" <>
>Subject: Re: sola scriptura; specifically.  Yeah, right...
>Glad you're here.  I appreciate the time you and Herman taketo search the
>scriptures and  I should have told you that a long time ago.  God bless
>you.Sola scriptura, the defining source, the cutting edge, the Truth, Living
>Message: 17
>    Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:01:47 -0500
>    From: "lori ledonne" <>
>Subject: email address
>We have a new computer here and I'm using a different mail servicefor the
>time being.  For some reason, when I hit the reply key, the message goes
>out as tledonne, in Tony's name, but it was me, Lori, who repliedthose
>last few times.  I'll try to remember to sign my letters in thefuture if I
>use the reply key.  Happy New Year.