Subject:  [sharpen] Digest Number 508
Date:  10 Dec 2000 10:04:25 -0000
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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:36:08 EST
   From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: Re: Liberal Media

In a message dated 12/7/2000 9:01:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
walkerm@hoffman.army.mil writes:

<<
 The question: Why are Gores lawyers so anxious  to DO arecount?

 I think it strange that the Gore lawyers argued that ballot countingshould
 start immediately and then while counting, argue whether theyshould be
 included in the count. That is like a football team asking therefto allow
  them to try a field goal just after time ran out; and then they could
 discuss whether to allow the points.
 Mike
  >>

Hi Mike, in my opinion, I think the standard for judging the intentofthe
voter in the undervote should be Johnny Carson's "The Great Carnack"mind
reading routine, namely put on your party affiliation turban, holdballotto
forehead, close your eyes, concentrate, & say the name of the firstcandidate
that pops into their minds. This is similar to the standard handeddownby
the Fla. Supreme court.
                                                                Herm
 

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Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:57:01 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: MUSLIM KIDS GET TO PRAY IN SCHOOL FOR RAMADAN

In Philly last week - I saw a segment on  the local news about
what they do in the schools here and how they roll out the red
     carpet so that they can lay out their prayercarpet.
I got mixed feelings about that.  They designate a special room
      where they can do this.
One of the teachers says, that, "Since she fasts, she has more
       time to grade papers...."
I think they don't eat till 5 PM and then they have water and
something else.  forget what....

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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 19:12:49 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Re: Liberal Media

>  The question: Why are Gores lawyers so anxious  to DOarecount?

When a race is that close - it's a given.  Yes, three times a Pres. has won
the electoral while not winning the popular.  That is nothingnew.
Counting votes a lot more closely when it's a close race is nothingnew
either.  Like it's been said - they just figured out last weekwhowon the
Senate race in Washington state - it was close, and took time to getit
right.  If someone is a half million or so ahead - a few thousandwouldn't
make any difference at all.  When it's a matter of a few hundred!!?!!
Recounts happen in all cases like this.  I don't know, but thismaybe
the first time for a Presidential election.  The reason Nixondidn'tbring
up any fuss about Cook county in Illinois is because the investigation
would have found out the funny stuff the Reps did in their own counties
in Illinois.   (check out Carnack below..........)

> Hi Mike, in my opinion, I think the standard for judging the intentofthe
> voter in the undervote should be Johnny Carson's "The Great Carnack" mind
> reading routine,

My favorite Carnack - and you had to be there - Johnny just about fell out
of his chair laughing.
Holding envelope to head he says:
"Siss   -   Boom    -  Bah!

Answer - - - - - - (or question, really - - )
What is the sound of an exploding sheep?

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Subject:  [sharpen] Digest Number 509
Date:  11 Dec 2000 10:56:33 -0000

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Message: 13
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 07:59:28 -0800 (PST)
   From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: Hey Neil

I saw some of your posts....aside from one of them, you are conducting
yourself with the kind of attitude that promotes peace and understandingand
unity of the brethren. Well done.

One thing I learned with the big blow up with my poet friends is that
"personal" comments tend to inflame and not illuminate the conversation.I
was really good at jabbing people but not keeping to the issue at hand.So
thank you Jesus that you are addressing the issues and not resortingtothe
"personal" stuff.  Don't get me wrong...I'm not ascared a ya andIcan beat
you into a paste any day of the month, but it just wouldn't be theright
thing to do.  How are you at arm wrestling?

mm


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Message: 14
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:35:18 -0500
   From: lori LeDonne <lledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: other list

Neil,
Do the people on that other list whose messages you are posting hereknow
that you are posting their stuff elsewhere?  If you haven't, itmight be
good to ask.  I wasn't too keen one time to find out Fred hadposted
something I had written on his skeptics' list.
 

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Message: 15
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:08:58 EST
   From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Genetic Disorders

In a message dated 12/10/00 10:47:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Symmetor@aol.com writes:

<<
      Deb, my God is the God of Christ.
      No genetically induced emotional disorderis too stubborn for the grace
 of Christ.
      No faithful Christian ever committedsuicide. But unfaithful Christians
 are worse than unbelievers.
      All bodies are given by God. Nothinginnature works apart from
nature'sGod. Bodily disorders serve their purpose, which is to illustrate spiritual
 disorders. God bears no particular personal animosity towardadwarf; He is
 simply illustrating spiritual dwarfism, which is to be excluded.This is not
 paradise. This world is a world of pictures of things of whichitknows
 nothing. But Christians know of those things.
 
 
                  - Sym
  >>

Greetings Neil,  Great post.  Which is more important: Theknowing of
pictures, patterns, and/or archetypes or the experience of God's
lovingkindness?  Ed
 

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Message: 16
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:11:40 EST
   From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dwarf
 

  Subject: Re: Genetic Disorders
 
  Sym, i think it's your post that illustrates "spiritual dwarfism." .....
  Janna
   >>

 
 Dear Janna:
      What do you mean by your short-limbedresponse? Do you just blurt out
 your opinion without explanation? What is 'spiritual dwarfism',andhow did
 my post 'illustrate' it?
 
 
 
                   - Sym
  >>

I think I know what she meant.  But as her tongue was in her cheek,it was a
curve ball to the curved sword.  Ed
 

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Message: 17
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:22:39 EST
   From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bull

In a message dated 12/9/00 5:31:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
religion_forum@egroups.com writes:
 
 << To me God is beyond all this narrow BS.  To beGodis to be All.
   >>

 
      I must sympathize with your conceptionofGodas being 'beyond' even
theillustrative religion that He imposed in history; but to refertoit as
 'narrow BS' betrays a narrowness and a readiness to dump loadsofsmelly
 opinions with the gusto of a bull.
      To be God is to contain all, and tofillall, but not to BE all. There
 is a fundamental distinction between Creator and creature.
 
 
 
                   - Sym
  >>

I must concur with Neil here and state that pantheism (all=God-ism)hasno
place in Christianity, but is pagan in totality.  Ed
 

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Message: 18
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:39:16 EST
   From: Gjude20@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Liberal Grace

Dear Herman, Jesus is Lord.  I am sorry that we did not get together for a
cook-out this last summer as we wanted to do.  Do you have a brochure on the
cultural attractions of the ABE area?  Please snail mail one tomeifyou
have or can get a pamphlet like that.  Also, send a private e-mailto me,
because I can never get your address correct.  Your brother inChrist, Ed
 

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Message: 19
   Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:45:14 -0000
   From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: poem
 

From:  Owen
        Dear poetry lovers
       I lifted this off AngelConnectionswebsite.  (Minus the way cool
graphics.)

On wings of eagles I wish to fly.
These soaring beauties from on high.
The beauty and grace of God's creation
Symbol of grace for all our nation.

Now is the time for our nation to be
The symbol of all for democracy.
Be careful, think, before you criticize
Your words are before the worlds eyes.

Remember before you cast your stone
You are not in this country alone.
We have the right to speak our mind
Not the right to be cruelly unkind.

The right to expect a fair count
Once and for all end all doubt.
Watch thoughts that may come out
You want to live after the count.

The count I speak is not of this world
The plan for our nation is unfurled.
Join in the praise for God above,
Accept His guidance and His love.

Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 20
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:52:41 -0000
   From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: humor/  political
 

From:  Owen
       Dear
 
a.. Al Gore is very desperate. He really wants to win. The whole dealwith Gore
is this: You see, he's spent the last eight years around the WhiteHouseand now
he just wants to be able to walk into the Oval Office without knockingand
yelling, "Are you decent?!"
b.. -Leno?
c..
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net ________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 21
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:37:26 -0000
   From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: Names
 

From:  Owen
        Dear Folks
 

Names

As you read the Bible you will notice whole chapters filled with names. There’s
the descendants of Cain (Gen 4), the ancestors of Noah (ch 5), thetableof
nations (10). Then there’s the census of Israel (Num 1&26) andthe Levites (ch
3). The names of the places they stayed (33), the leaders (10&34),and the spies
(13).

Also in Chronicles we have the chiefs of Edom (ch 1), the clans of Israel (2-7),
and the Levites who carried the ark (15). Then there’s David’s heroes(11),
soldiers (12), generals (27) and other officials (26). There’s hisorganization
of the priests, Levites, singers, and gatekeepers (23-26). Also wehavethe
names of those who took charge of the food during the revival of Hezekiah (2Chr
31) and the names of those priests who married foreigners (Ezra 8).Andsome of
these lists are repeated.

WHY? Scribes and monks had to copy these names by hand many, many times. (Until
Gutenburg made it easy.) Now I’m sure that Harold Camping can findthe gospel
message in there, but I don’t see how I can learn anything about salvation from
the names of David’s gatekeepers.

But I see other possible applications: One is to take the extra effort to learn
people’s names.  Another is that "people matter".

Another application: In America we shop at supermarkets, where we canlook at
the price tag and the label and compare one item with others. We don’t know
anybody at the store, but we buy products there, that our lives dependon. Many
parts of the world don’t operate this way. People know their butcher and fruit
vendor, or else it’s "buyer beware". Before making business deals,they sit down
and talk for hours, and get to know someone. [In a place where contractsare
hard to enforce, this is extremely important.] By comparison Americansmake
phone calls and compare products and prices, and do business with complete
strangers. There are advantages to the other method. If the merchantsknow you
they will more willingly replace a container of spoiled yogurt. Orgiveyou
credit in an emergency. When seeking an auto mechanic or a contractor,people
often ask their friends whom they trust, because the potential forfraudis
great.

I can’t see any reason at all to list the kings of Edom (1Chron1).Infact if
you’re going to record anything about Edom, why not record their constitution,
the makeup of their legislature, their major laws, their commerce withother
nations, and their history. [I consider that since none of those kings,were
succeeded by his son, that each of them was either followed by a civilwar or
overthrown in a coup.] There were probably some interesting battlesand
conspiracies, but all we’re given is names. When it records the kings of Israel,
I kind of expected to see an analysis of the social trends (the ideas,arguments
and debates) that led to their backsliding. But no, all we got was"So-and-so
worshipped the Baals".

My application of that is to worry less about laws and constitutionsand more
about the character of who is in charge. The people who rule and thepeople who
are ruled are more important than what the specific laws are. For instance
conservatives complain that the 14th amendment gave the Supreme Courtthe
ability to interfere with school prayer. BUT we had the 14th amendmentfor 98
years before the Supreme Court dared to try such a stunt. And thatwasbecause
the people were willing to lose that freedom. They may not have wantedtoban
it, but they offered no resistance. If Americans weren’t promiscuous, then
abortion would not have been legalized. Our excellent constitutionprovided no
protection. It was totally ignored, and the people acquiesced.

    I probably haven't covered all the reasons for these lists of names, but I
trust that there are good reasons and that the Lord wants us to "applyour minds
to" it.

PS constructive criticism appreciated.  Even semi-constructivecriticism
appreciated.
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 23
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:22:16 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Names

>  As you read the Bible you will notice whole chapters filledwith
> names. There’s the descendants of Cain (Gen 4), the ancestorsofNoah
> (ch 5), the table of nations (10). Then there’s the census ofIsrael
> (Num 1&26) and the Levites (ch 3). The names of the places theystayed
> (33), the leaders (10&34), and the spies (13).
> WHY? Scribes and monks had to copy these names by hand many, many
> times. (Until Gutenburg made it easy.) Now I’m sure that Harold
> Camping can find the gospel message in there, but I don’t seehowI
> can learn anything about salvation from the names of David’s
> gatekeepers.

It's a matter of keeping records - and keeping them accurate.
The monuments and such are to remember that "such and such"
happened here.  Bethel - whatever - they gave them names.
The records of the names - remember when that one king had
"divine insomnia" and he had stuff read to him - and he wanted to thank
the one guy - and the other guy was trying to get him hung and it
was he who ended up hung.  It's in the book of Esther.
And I think you'll recall the gospel message - just the mention ofit-
how in one list David's wife is Bethsheba - and in the other list she
is listed as Barsheba - one meaning daughter of an oath - and the
other meaning daughter of a promise - and the wonderful Bible
study that came out of that - and how God works all things to the
good.  Always bringing good out of bad.  He's like that......

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Message: 24
   Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:42:17 -0500
   From: bsp15@juno.com
Subject: Re: Re: joke

Hi, Carol. I apologize for my insensitivity to your family situation.
I've been extremely busy lately with work, school, and teaching a course
and have only skimmed most email and have not made time to respondto99%
of sharpen mail. However, I did scan your updates and should have thought
of you before sending that joke, but I failed to. I will pray for you,
your husband, and your family. May the two of you receive comfort and
strength from our merciful and compassionate God during this tryingtime.

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Fatherof
compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our
troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfortwe
ourselves have received from God" (2 Cor. 1:3-4).
Bob San Pascual

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Subject:  [sharpen] Digest Number 510
Date:  12 Dec 2000 11:00:17 -0000

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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:35:10 -0000
   From: "Carol  " <cstutts@kih.net>
Subject: Re: joke

Hi Bob,
Please don't lose any sleep over this one.  I accept your apologyand
as I mentioned prior to this I have no doubt that your error was
unintentional.
Carol

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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:24:08 EST
   From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest Number 509

In a message dated 12/11/00 5:57:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sharpen@egroups.com writes:

<< So
 thank you Jesus that you are addressing the issues and not resorting to the
 "personal" stuff.  Don't get me wrong...I'm not ascaredaya and I can beat
 you into a paste any day of the month, but it just wouldn't betheright
 thing to do.  How are you at arm wrestling?
 
 mm >>

     Hahah! I dunno. Let's go at it!
     Hey Mike, why did those all come through blank,reading 'this -
contained attachments'? Did they all go to the listers as blanks?

 
                - NP
 

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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:30:41 EST
   From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Privacy or Publicity

<< From: lori LeDonne <lledonne@sunlink.net>
 Subject: other list
 
 Neil,
 Do the people on that other list whose messages you are postinghere know
 that you are posting their stuff elsewhere?  If you haven't,it might be
 good to ask.  I wasn't too keen one time to find out Fredhadposted
 something I had written on his skeptics' list.
  >>

Dear Lori:
     Well, I think that communication on theselistsis just about as public
as communication can be. I take all of these free lists to be forums,andI
take the ideas expressed to be fair game. I don't class it with hackinginto
someone's private email, and spreading their private words around;youseem
to be pleading for privacy for ideas which are flapping in the cyberwind.
 
                  - Neil
 

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Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:37:58 EST
   From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Experience and Knowledge

In a message dated 12/11/00 5:57:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sharpen@egroups.com writes:

<< Greetings Neil,  Great post.  Which is more important:The knowing of
 pictures, patterns, and/or archetypes or the experience of God's
 lovingkindness?  Ed >>

     Well, Ed, I think that the 'experience' towhich you refer is the Holy
Spirit Himself, apart from Whom there is no going on to 'knowing' anything
anyway. I think your question is better phrased, 'which is FIRST...?',
because it is clear that the experience of God's lovingkindness inthe
realization of salvation in the conversion experience is first. Wemustcome
into being first, before we know anything, no? So it is really allone;I
think there is a continuum between birthing experience of God and the
knowledge that informs maturity.
 
                 - Neil
 

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Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:52:50 -0000
   From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: names  more
 

From:  Owen
        Dear All
       Another thought:
        Another application: Someofthese lists are of ordinary people who did
ordinary things (David’s gatekeepers). They show that God honors ordinary
people. He gives them eternal consequence by recording them in thesacredtexts.
God is not too spiritual for that.                Also your actions/decisions
might be remembered forever, the way some of them were.

Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:53:44 -0000
   From: "Owen D Camp" <dococ@surferz.net>
Subject: suicide

     I wonder if these questions about suicide springfromthe wishes of some to
be able to think of friends or relatives who have committed suicideasbeing in
a better place.                   - Sym

From:  Owen
        Dear Neil
       1) I think you "hit the nail onthehead".
2)While I may argue about your reasoning I agree with your conclusion.
3) I hate opening FORWARDs  That's 7 extra clicks per post. Itonly takes a
second to highlight, copy and paste.

Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom
      Owen Camp   Cairo  NY    dococ@surferz.net

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Message: 11
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:41:34 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense

> > > >  I am sad to report the Passing of Common Sense
> > > >  Today I am mourning the passing of an old friend by thenameof
> > "CommonSense." Common Sense, (AKA C.S.), lived a long life butdied from
> > heart  failure at the brink of the millennium.

About 200 years ago common sense "wasn't so common anymore"
according to Thomas Paine.  Not it's dead.  Makes sense.....
 
 

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Message: 12
   Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:16:29 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: suicide

I remember Blake telling me when John Lennon was shot that it even
affected the brethren in Cobu (I was out - so I wouldn't know).
"The devil likes to destroy anything hopeful," are the words he said.
When it comes to where someone goes - it is not our say.
Where did the harlot go?  Rahab is in the faith hall of fame -
not the hall of shame.  We don't know.  How about the villagethat
the machine gunners asked, "Who are the Christians?" to mow them
down and the town drunk gladly said, "Don't forget me!" - brother
Wurmbrand implying that the fellow may have been the town drunk -
but he certainly acted like a Christian when push came to shove.
The thief on the cross didn't die a thief.  But that's certainlya
uniquesituation.
But when it comes to our dead loved ones or acquaintances - who knows?
God.It's not to us to know these things.
Jim Griffiths' dad was a character.  As he lay in the hospitalfora few
monthsdying - he changed - and then he died on Jim's spiritual birthday.
Sometimes there are signs that are hopeful.  Why take away hope?
These are things beyond and out of our control.  We want to thinkthe
best.At least, most of us do.  The reality?  Who can sayfor sure.  That's
whenI always like to refer to Kathryn Kuhlman who said "those who knowfor
sure" are the ones who scared her.
I wrote a track - about how many rock bands had a member who had died.
And this was back  around 1980 or so.
And I wrote about the lead singer of ACDC - that 'he sung "Highwayto
Hell"then he went.'
Could be true - but I wish I hadn't written that then.
I mean, in "considering how to build one another up" I don't thinkthis
isin the ballpark unless you're going to attach it with a lot of hope.
Hopelessness is a drag.  (remember the beginning to "It's a Wonderful
Life?")(the stars talking...)
  BTW - depression is not necessarily the result of sin at all.  That is
verynarrow-minded.  I think immediately of Maurice Smith, the"BillyGraham"
of Great Britain who got leveled by God.  It wasn't sin.
Reminds me also of the great John 9 bible study I heard once - "Who
sinned -this man or his parents that he was born blind."
The disciples fell into the same "seeing sin everywhere" trap.
Because someone is sick or suffers from any particular thing does not
meanthere is something wrong with their relationship with God - infact,in
Ecceven the opposite could be true (why do the wicked prosper?).
I was not that this man sinned ( how does someone sin before they're
born?)or that his parents sinned, but that the works of God might bemade
manifestin him.
I know this is getting off the suicide subject a little, but why musta
wetblanket be thrown over everything?
Pessimism is dwarfed by hope.And that's my final answer.

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Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:33:36 -0500
   From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: God as Love, Men as Hatred

Deb, God said to Moses: "No dwarf shall enter the assembly of the Lord."
 But the real law is spiritual; the written law is only shadowsofspiritual
things, otherwise God would be cruel.

                   - Sym
 
 
 

Actually Lev.21:

[17] Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their
generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer thebread
of his God.
[18] For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a
blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
[19] Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
[20] Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye,orbe
scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
[21] No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shallcome
nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish;he
shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
 

He was speaking of those that were preists and what they must avoid.
 
 
 
 

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Message: 15
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 03:01:15 -0500
   From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Suicide my 2¢

I think one of the Gospels wrote...Judas repented then hanged himself.

I heard a friend speak about a young friend we both had that went witnessing
with us all around the Ohio valley and he was a early teen at thattime,and had
caused his entire family to repent and find the King. When I say entire,I mean
hisbrothers, sisters, mother, father, aunts, uncles and cousins. Iremember
thinking I wasin great company with this kid that was several yearsmy junior atthe time, but
later inlife he took his own life. But my friend had said this mutualfriend was
distraught and wasnot thinking clearly and yes we would like to believethat Jack MichaelGulleyis walkingstreets of  Gold right now.

Now I would never recommend anyone to try this route and find out ifit was ok.
But yesI think many of us will be surprised whom we will find seatedat the Master's
feet when we arrive.
Well if we arrive.....sometimes I wonder who can, may, will finishtherace.
Lately I have beenthinking if the Master passed by while I was doingthis, or that, wouldI enter
in?

Ever hear yourself make the statement..."I've been saved since....."or holding
weight withthe amount of years we have run the race. Every day is anew day, everyday I am
remindedthat there is none good, and I certainly do fall short of theglory of God. I
hurt myself more thesedays than when I'd fall head-long into the muckandroll around inthe coolnessof the mud until Ifound out it wasn't allthat cool,it hurts more now when I slip, orfall short.
Although I never "think"
suicide is "an" answer, I have thought those thoughts when runningoutside of
the anointing, and orshrubbery of God. Although I think only the Bloodcan save us, butthe Word doeswrite somethinglike, if we turn one from theerror of his ways it will cover a multitudeofsins, and I think of myfriendJackMichael taking his own life, and wonder, considering howmany liveswerechangedas a
result of one life.

amen

brother ray
++++++++++++++++++++
R a y n a r d   M e r r i t t
     n8vzl@qsl.net
++++++++++++++++++++

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Subject:  [sharpen] Digest Number 511
Date:  13 Dec 2000 10:16:15 -0000

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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:14:45 -0000
   From: "Carol  " <cstutts@kih.net>
Subject: Suicide

Could anyone pick a more depressing subject to discuss during the
holidays?
 
 

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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:55:28 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Suicide

> Could anyone pick a more depressing subject to discuss during the
> holidays?

Got a point there.  But I think it's a fact most suicides occurright
after the holidays.  Or, as the joke goes - you visit your family
once a year and remember why you only do it once a year......

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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:21:13 EST
   From: CindyWG404@aol.com
Subject: Re: Suicide

I feel that this topic is more than appropriate during the holidays.  This is
the time that it kicks in that loved ones are sick, and some are nolonger
with us (through death, divorce, and through distance).  We tendtoreflect
during this time, AND this topic may help someone.
Cindy

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Message: 12
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:46:17 EST
   From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: The Earth Shakes Under Deb

In a message dated 12/11/00 6:43:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
religion_forum@egroups.com writes:

<<  Oh gee Sym, I thought God waited until we died to condemnusto living
hell,  now you are saying that the rules have changed and Godisvisiting
mental  illness down on us as wages of sin as we walk this life?  I don't
like your  God, Sym.  Sym your God sucks.  Deb >>

     No rules have changed, obtuse woman. You have swinishly disdained to
learn the rules. If you understood first principles you would knowthat
nothing just happens, but, for correction, for punishment, for discipline,
for motivation,  everything is visited upon us by God.
     More correctly you hate God. And in exchangeforyour words you will
shortly find yourself sucking what you will wish that you had not sucked.
Mark these words.   - Sym
 

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Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:32:45 EST
   From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Names of Individuals in the Bible

In a message dated 12/12/00 6:01:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sharpen@egroups.com writes:

<< From:  Owen
         Dear All
        Another thought:
         Another application:Some of these lists are of ordinary people who
did ordinary things (David€™s gatekeepers). They show thatGodhonors ordinary
people. He gives them eternal consequence by recording them in thesacred
texts. God is not too spiritual for that.                Also your
actions/decisions might be remembered forever, the way some of themwere.>>

Dear Owen:
     Names of individuals have meanings, so thatindividuals represent
identifiable spirits and their works, especially as they beget otherswho
beget others, and so on. Their names represent the spirits by whichthings
are done among Christians, and their pedigrees the  traceabilityofthe
authority by which such spirits act.
 
              - Neil
 

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Message: 14
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:17:56 -0800
   From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense

imho, the last thing thomas paine knew anything about was "common sense".
thankfully it was not dependent upon his philosophies for itscontinued
health.    ellen

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Message: 15
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:24:26 -0800
   From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: suicide

re: the sin issue.  God says in Exodus 34 that He visits the iniquity of
the children to the 4th generation and the question posed by the
disciples was not off the wall at all. the people of the earth arecursed
because of sin. in fact, when Jesus answered He said ---"in this case"
it was not the guy or his parents but for the glory of God.  thatdoes
not negate the fact that sin can be a factor in such matters. not the
kind of thing for any but the individual in question to know either.  God
has always been faithful to convict me when I was in sin; I figureHe'll
do the same for anyone listening.  just thought i'd interject.  there was
something else i wanted to say too, but it's eluded me and i haven'tgot
much time here today.  love,  ellen

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Message: 16
   Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:00:14 -0800
   From: "Sohm Ving" <ving3@hotmail.com>
Subject: I PASSED MATH!!!!

Praise God!!!! I passed Math!!! I graduate this Friday with absolute
certainty that I earned the degree.

Mike M

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Message: 17
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 03:53:57 -0500
   From: lori LeDonne <lledonne@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: I PASSED MATH!!!!

Congratulations!
 
 

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 Subject:  [sharpen] Digest Number 512
Date:  14 Dec 2000 11:40:03 -0000

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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:35:59 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense

If I'm not mistaken - what Mr. Paine did was wake up
the colonists to what was going on and something should
be done about it.  Or should we still be paying taxes to
the British?
You probably don't agree with Mr. Paine's views on religion.
- or more importantly - what you're heard his views were.
And I'm not saying they were good at all.  But he was a part
of making this country what it is today.
So blame him indeed!

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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:41:01 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: suicide

Reminds me of the time JD had his first store at 11th and South.
I was walking by - and didn't know about the store or anything.
There he was - a few brethren there, may have been "backslidden"
who knows - this was around 1987 - hadn't seen anyone for like
five years.
So John says after we have a nice reacquantance,
"Stop by again; and we can talk about guilt!"
I didn't see him for about another five years.
It's like the Martha/Mary thing.
Mary chose the better portion.  But the (whatever
you want to call 'em) insist "we need Martha, too, you know!"
Okay - run off and be a sour puss if you insist.
And I'm not referring to you in this situation, sister.
Let the long face be worn by him who wears it.
Who knows what's under that beard?

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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:50:44 -0500
   From: "Carol Stutts" <cstutts@kih.net>
Subject: re: MM passed Math

Congratulations... wasn't that bad was it?

BTW, I asked this before.... what is your degree?  Perhaps you'drather not
say...  that is okay if you don't.  Just wasn't sure if youjust missed my
previous question.

Carol

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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:14:24 -0800
   From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense--the power of a name

i am not referriing to what i "heard" his views were, my dear tom; i've
read it myself, and i don't agree with him especially when it comesto
religion.  of course, we don't want to be paying taxes to theBritish.
on top of our present load, that would be akin to being Canadian! but to
credit him--tom paine---with "common sense"  just because he happened to
name his little pamphlet by that name is ridiculous.  just goesto show
the power of a name.  really--what draws your attention more--"The
Hobbit"   or "  There and Back Again"?

his pamphlet did "wake up" America to what had been going on under their
very noses for a very long time.  it was right up there with thatpicture
of the Boston Massacre that Sam Adams had printed all through the
colonies.  propaganda at its very best---it worked.

btw, please say a prayer for us tonight as we must travel through heavy
snows to get joe home from college tomorrow.  our car doesn'treallylike
snow either.  thanks.

love,  ellen

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Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:50:59 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: The Earth Shakes Under Deb

> <<  Oh gee Sym, I thought God waited until we died tocondemnus to living
> hell,  now you are saying that the rules have changed and Godis visiting
> mental  illness down on us as wages of sin as we walk this life?  I don't
> like your  God, Sym.  Sym your God sucks.  Deb >>

>
>      No rules have changed, obtuse woman.Youhave swinishly disdained to
> learn the rules. If you understood first principles you would knowthat
> nothing just happens,   - Sym

Deb - whoever you are - I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Of course,
  you'll never see this, as you're not on this list.  WhyMoseschose to
    resurface here in this fashion is beyond me.
The politics today is really more civilized than times past. I was reading
today of the "friendship" between Hoover and Roosevelt in Modern Times.
    (originally published in 1983 and called by theNew York Times
     one of the best books of the year.  Imentioned this book before
       about similarities between beardboyand  Lenin.)
   I'd like to pass along the attack on Roosevelt by Mencken- -
H.L. Mencken said Theodore Roosevelt (not Hoover's "friend") was
"blatant, crude, overly confidential, devious, tyrannical, vaingloriousand
sometimes quite childish."  Of course all those don't apply toNeil,
thank God, but......
Personal "attacks" or no personal attacks; you gotta call an ace anace.
                   And we've aced one here folks!
I'm only  so straighforward as I am -
instead of telling you how I really feel.
 
am I giving him wrong attention?

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Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:59:44 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense--the power of a name

> btw, please say a prayer for us tonight as we must travel throughheavy
> snows to get joe home from college tomorrow.  our car doesn'treally like
> snow either.  thanks.

Will do - if the winds still blowing like it was it's going to be very bad.
The thing that scares me most about driving - after losing controlof
my own vehicle because of going too fast and hitting a slippery spot-
is those SUV and other maniacs that think they can still do 60.
 
 

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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:15:11 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Jn 9 and such...

> re: the sin issue.  God says in Exodus 34 that He visits theiniquity of
> the children to the 4th generation and the question pposed by the
> disciples was not off the wall at all. the people of the earth arecursed
> because of sin. in fact, when Jesus answered He said ---"in thiscase"

Very good point - had to read that about three times till I realizedyou
were referring to - of course the  guy didn't sin "before he wasborn" -
it could have been like mentioned there in Exodus and that does make
perfect sense.
In the context of the Bible study I heard - where it is now who knows,
may even be on my site, I really don't know.  I'll bet you anythingI
typed it up (before I got a computer in 1995 I used to type everything
up on an IBM) and sent it to a few Cobu addresses.  I used todo that
a lot.
There were other examples that made it clear that the disciples tendto
think in terms of "sin" and things on this earth while Jesus wouldinstead
point to the glory of God.  Things along those lines.....
But that does explain - what a minute - it does ask,
"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?"
In that translation the inference still is the possibility that somehowthis
man sinned before he was.....   There's some things I justdon't get.
Maybe Neil can explain it in simple terms I can understand.

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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:10:36 -0800 (PST)
   From: Mike Montoya <mikemontoya2@excite.com>
Subject: Re: re: MM passed Math

I will have a degree in English.

mm

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Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 02:42:43 -0000
   From: "Carol  " <cstutts@kih.net>
Subject: Re: MM passed Math

Congratulations.. you can do a lot with that.. it opens up so many
area's.  Do you have your eye's on any special one?
CS

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Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:29:54 -0500
   From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Only In America

Tired of getting all those pre-approved letters in the mail for
 everything from credit cards to 2nd Mortgages, and junk likethat? If
 the answer is, "Yes!" read on. If "no", read on anyway sincemany of us
 don't care for banks and credit card companies anyway.

 As you know, most, if not all of those letters come with a postage
 "PRE-PAID" envelope. Why not get rid of some of your other junkmail and
 put it in these cool little envelopes! If you didn't get anythingelse
 that day, then just send them their application back! Just makesure
 your name isn't on anything you send them. Heck, you can sendit back
 empty if you want. Keep 'em guessing that way. Let's turn thisintoa chain
letter! Eventually,The banks will
 begin getting all their crap back in the mail. Let's let themknow
 what's
 its like to get junk mail, and best of all . . .
 THEY'RE paying for it!
 Twice!
 Only in America!
 Send this to a friend or two or three.....
 

++++++++++++++++++++
R a y n a r d   M e r r i t t
     n8vzl@qsl.net
++++++++++++++++++++

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Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:57:32 -0500
   From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense--the power of a name

How about those many little verses , sayings of Ben Franklin. Many people
even today
believe they are scripture.

God helps them that help themselves

Early to bed and early to rise,
Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.

Plough deep while sluggards sleep.

Never leave that till to-morrow which you can do to-day.

Little strokes fell great oaks.

Our Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that
it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
 

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Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 02:12:25 -0500
   From: "Raynard Merritt" <n8vzl@qsl.net>
Subject: Thomas Paine...Quote

Here is what the man said.
 

      Biblical Blasphemy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

[THIS ESSAY WAS PUBLISHED AS ONE OF THE "PROSPECT PAPERS" WHICH PAINE
CONTRIBUTED TO ELIHU PALMER'S JOURNAL THE PROSPECT, OR VIEW OF THEMORAL WORLD
IN 1804]
 
 

The Church tells us that the books of the Old and New Testament aredivine
revelation, and without this revelation we could not have true ideasof God.

The Deist, on the contrary, says that those books are not divine revelation;
and that were it not for the light of reason and the religion of Deism,
those books, instead of teaching us true ideas of God, would teachus not
only false but blasphemous ideas of Him.

Deism teaches us that God is a God of truth and justice. Does the Bible
teach the same doctrine? It does not.

The Bible says (Jeremiah xx, 7) that God is a deceiver. "O Lord (says
Jeremiah) thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Thou art strongerthan
I, and hast prevailed."

Jeremiah not only upbraids God with deceiving him, but, in iv, 10, he
upbraids God with deceiving the people of Jerusalem. "Ah! Lord God(says
he), surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ye
shall have peace, whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul."

In xv, 18, the Bible becomes more impudent, and calls God in plain language,
a liar. "Wilt thou (says Jeremiah to God) be altogether unto me asa liar
and as waters that fail?"

Ezekiel xiv, 9, makes God to say - "If the prophet be deceived whenhehath
spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." All this is
downright blasphemy.

The prophet Micaiah, as he is called, II Chron. xviii, 18-21, tellsanother
blasphemous story of God. "I saw," says he, "the Lord sitting on Histhrone,
and all the hosts of Heaven standing on His right hand and on His left.And
the Lord said, who shall entice Ahab, King of Israel, to go up andfall at
Ramoth Gilead? And one spoke after this manner, and another after that
manner.

"Then there came out a spirit [Micaiah does not tell us where he camefrom]
and stood before the Lord [what an impudent fellow this spirit was]and
said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, wherewith? Andhe said,
I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.And
the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail;go out,
and do even so."

We often hear of a gang of thieves plotting to rob and murder a man,and
laying a plan to entice him out that they may execute their design,and we
always feel shocked at the wickedness of such wretches; but what mustwe
think of a book that describes the Almighty acting in the same manner,and
laying plans in heaven to entrap and ruin mankind? Our ideas of Hisjustice
and goodness forbid us to believe such stories, and therefore we saythata
lying spirit has been in the mouth of the writers of the books of theBible.

-Thomas Paine
 
 

++++++++++++++++++++
R a y n a r d   M e r r i t t
     n8vzl@qsl.net
++++++++++++++++++++

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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:38:48 EST
   From: Symmetor@aol.com
Subject: Cranky Comic Strip Characters

In a message dated 12/12/00 6:39:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
religion_forum@egroups.com writes:

<< Ryan:

 I'm not sure if Sym is simply saying that physical dwarfism hasa
 parallel in the spiritual world, or if he is saying that shortfolks
 "specifically" have done something wrong.

Sym:

     It is the former - that physical dwarfism hasa parallel in the
spiritual world (of Christian spirituality), as do all other physicalthings
have such parallels. To those bound to the flatland of natural, unspiritual
life, as illustrative comic strip characters, the Artist would seemto be
cruel. There are readers, however, dwelling in a world superior tothe comic
strip, to whom things are being illustrated through it, whose naturallives
remain participant in it, but whose spirituality transcends it.   - Sym

 Jeneva:

        Either way, it's unfair andcruel, Ryan.  Either their physical
 condition does not necessarily illustrate their spiritual condition (in
 which case, WHY did God tell Moses, "No dwarf shall enter theassembly
 of the Lord"?), or the assumption is being made that it DOESapply to
 them spiritually.  I see some serious injustice either way.
  >>

Sym:

     Flatlanders will find fault with the Artist,as He has appointed for
them to do, having written the very word bubbles over their heads,until by
His appointment any one of them graduates to a three dimensional lifewith
Himself.   - Sym
 

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Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:39:47 -0500
   From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
Subject: Re: re: MM passed Math

> I will have a degree in English.
>
> mm

Two quick success stories on that - the radio commentator
was asked, "What are you going to do with a degree in English?"
(well, he's on the radio now)
And the second one - a fellow went to one of those job interviews
at a college - only it wasn't his college - it was more upscale.
The interviewer said, "Why should I even talk to you?  You don't
go to this college and your grade point average isn't that good."
The student, undaunted, asked the interviewer,
"What do they call the last in the class that graduates medical school?"
   Answer:
"Doctor."
The guy ended up hiring him.
An example of using your English.
 
 

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Subject:  [sharpen] Digest Number 513
Date:  15 Dec 2000 12:09:43 -0000 

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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:44:27 EST
   From: cbHIMtg@cs.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Common Sense

Hi Carol, some of the comments in the post are expressed in the bookof
Isaiah 59:9-15
& are applicable to today's culture.
                                                        Herm

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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:19:14 -0500
   From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: I PASSED MATH!!!!

Brother Sohm,
Praise God indeed bro!
Very happy for you, young master Ving.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:06:26 -0500
   From: "Steve Saxton" <sksaxton@sg23.com>
Subject: Re: re: Jim's home..!!

Sister Carol,
Our God is an Awesome God!
This great news from a far country.
God causes even the medical community to be in awe. (I'm sure someof them were
: )
Very very happy for you and Jim, sis.
Yours in Christ,
Sola Scriptura,
Steve Saxton

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