<<  Most who leave cults still back off the word 'cult'. They can name
someone else's group as an obvious cult but their group was just not right
for them...not a cult.
They'll go to great lengths to find some other name or term to describe the
same abuse. >>

Jessica, and anybody else who cares:
My concern is that as a CHRISTIAN you can't say that people "get saved"
anywhere else than the CHURCH, Universal, the "Bride of Christ."  I disagree
with Carol's statement that people can get saved in a cult.  They get saved
by Jesus Christ through hearing a true Gospel message.  However, I do believe
they can get saved in a "church that abuses."  People don't get saved in
groups like Heaven's Gate, JW, Scientology (even though they talk about Jesus
in a weird way), or any of the "political" whatever groups you mentioned
Jessica.  My point is not the practical aspect that ST manipulated people to
make money for him through playing on their religious sensibilities.  My
point is that he is after their SOULS, in the same anti- Christian spirit
that runs any cult, whatever type it started.

And this is to say that a church can therefore be ruined and turned into a
cult and that in a sense "evil" can triumph.  That is the scarier thought to
me personally on the battleground.

And "the only thing necessary" (as the quote goes) "for evil to triumph is
for good men to do nothing."  And in Cobu that is what happened.  Now some of
it was ignorance, but some of those IN saw stuff happening and didn't say
anything.  And if they did try to, of course, the Stewman had them stoned to
death, but not enough tried.  In a sense, this is a point where I believe
each one of us needs to ask forgiveness and healing, and where we identify
corporately that we need to forgive each other.  (In the List some already
have asked for that forgiveness, most notably JG, who was an abuser and

   My point isn't that he got over like every other cult leader.  We already
know that.  My point is that his deception isn't fully seen by a secular view
of saying he controls people, or manipulates people or that we didn't see it
or that we did only to a degree and then had the sense to leave.  My point is
that God got crowded out and that ST is after the souls of those IN.  Maybe
you think I am crazy or too religious still or whatever.  If we are talking
about ST's motivations, we have to discuss the spiritual, not just the
practical results of his choices.  And there are deeper spiritual forces at
work in this.  I also believe there are spirits of destruction and death in
any abusive, deceptive situation or groups, but in this case, the Church of
Bible Understanding, even if very close to its beginning it turned bad, the
spirit inside of ST is a backslidden spirit.  He knew better.  He has rejected
Jesus Christ, not just anybody.  This is a directly Christian issue.  It
isn't just about acquisition of goods, it is about acquisition of souls, most
particularly those that were seeking Jesus Christ. That makes it a
bible-based cult now, that grew out of a church (where people got genuinely
saved, as Ave and others have described.)

That is why nobody gets saved there now, or if anyone does it is only out of
the Church within the Cult, a few individuals who still want the real Jesus
but have Him confused with ST.  That is the difference, when we are talking
Church vs. Cult.  I'm not denying it turned into a cult or that Jim and I
were in an abusive church that became a cult, which it is now, and I tell
people about.  I want that to be clear here on this List because most are
Christians in spite of the abuse.  I'm glad we are all OUT.  Delete if you
think my point is mute.  To me, it means if we are in a church now, we need
to be wary and protective as evil is seeking to destroy any good, and more as
the Day approaches. 
Nancy C.
P. S. there are anti-cult sites that do say to be careful with the term
"cult" as it applies to any bible-based groups.  (COBU is defaming the Name
above all names.)