--- Carol Stutts <cstutts@kih.net> wrote:
> From: "Carol Stutts" <cstutts@kih.net>

(deleted text...) So if someone wants to consider me backslidden because I don't fit into their mold for Christianity... more power to em! Which is why I asked the question a while ago and never did get an answer...who is to judge who is backslidden and who is not....    God is near to the broken hearted... those that boast of all they done have demonstrate
no need for him.  IMHO (When group prayer was initiated it was mentioned to pray for those who are "backslidden".)  As my fav comedian, Jay Leno would say... "What is that??"
=================================================
From: Dee Law <musicheaven@yahoo.com>

Unless it's super clear...like someone who supposedly
loves the Lord but is involved with "ethnic cleansing"
and raping little children...I think someone who does
that is DEFINITELY backslidden!  But when it comes to
subtle differences in doctrines...that's where it gets
sticky for me.

I think God can still be near to you even if you are
backslidden.  I believe it's His nature (grace and
mercy) to reach out to those who have forsaken
Him...like Peter and the other disciples who hit the
high road when things got rough.

I have had people tell me that I was backslidden,
rebellious, crazy and ugly (!) ... and I have been all
of that and some more at different stages of my life!
But, so what?  Jesus loves me, this I really do know.
And I love Him, too.

- Dee
=================================================
If one looks at God's relationship with Israel and Judah in the OT, it
is pretty obvious that He doesn't write someone off because they have
strayed (or even gone so far as outright rebellion).  The incredible
love and tenderness of the calls for them to return and be healed...
Though He was angry, He will not be angry forever...
Early in Jeremiah is a passage where He says, "I will heal your
backsliding."  In Isaiah, He declares that he will restore them for His
own sake, lest his glory be given to another.

All the way from Exodus through Kings and Chronicles we see the back and
forth, rebellion and restoration.  When I hear people talk about about
the "wrathful God of the Old Testament", I wonder what OT they've been
reading!  The most beautiful, tender, loving entreaties to return and be
restored are found there.  The fiercest declarations of protection and
preservation are there.  God does not easily give up on us.

Some of us could tell some very ugly tales of our post-cobu days.  Some
have already shared their stories.  And with great gentleness have they
been restored.

Dee is quite right.
===================================================
From: "Jeff  C. Benninger" <jeffBenninger@compuserve.com>

Richard Wurmbrand would speak of a brother who had left the church and
turned to drinking , however when the communists had a whole bunch of
brethren kneeling at a mass grave to be executed. This brother ran up and
said ," stop I want to die for Jesus too." Who is to judge was Richards
reply.
=====================================================
From: "Jeff  C. Benninger" <jeffBenninger@compuserve.com>

A Brother who had visited us from India, Brother Buraga, for the second
time in 5 years. Had lifted Richard Cuza for his help to his church in
India," he has been sending $50 each month, He is one we call backslidden,
whatever that means." Was his comment because he did not live in
fellowship.
===================================================
From: "Carol Stutts" <cstutts@kih.net>

Pat Cuza called me the day she rec'd the last mailing Mike Montoya sent
out.  Let me assure you ... they are doing fine.  We were on the phone for
hours...   she even reminded me when she, Millicent, & Tami (with red hair)
"left" they came to stay in my apt in the Northeast...  I had forgotten,
and still can't remember that, but I'm glad I was able to help them get
out...   Also, does anyone know where Millicent Watkins is?
Carol Stutts
=================================================
From: JThomas945@aol.com

From: John Thomas

I think the term "backslidden" should be reserved for those who want to use it
to refer to themselves.  There was a two year period after Marie and I left
that I was in a backslidden state.  I think the term is harsh, particularly
for us from the Cobu experience, because of our misinformed theological
understanding of the term.

I think it is proper to say from observation of another that: "it does not
appear that someone is walking with the Lord."  This phraseology allows for
the judgment to belong to the Lord and acknowledges that you as an observer
could be mistaken.  Who am I to judge the servant of another.

In Christ
JT
================================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>

Backslidden? That's the state of being the church assigns to anyone who leaves,
so that ANY challenge in life the deserter feels, he'll attribute it to "his
backslidden state", which will lead to that person wanting to return to the
church "to be restored."

My good friends, backsliding is a myth. You experience "trials and
tribulations" in the church, you experience "trials and tribulations" outside
of the church. What's the difference?

In either case, you either deal with the situation or you succumb to it.

And life is challenging enough without having to add the extra burden of a well
engineered "guilt-trip".

There is no heaven and hell, except what we create for ourselves within our own
minds.

So think happy thoughts, live a little, and enjoy the wonders of life. Life is
way too short to waste going down blind alleys. Cheers!

-Fred
============================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>

JThomas945@aol.com wrote:

> I think it is proper to say from observation of another that: "it does not
> appear that someone is walking with the Lord."

Or perhaps that person has found his own special place. Perhaps he is dancing to
the beat of his own drummer.

> This phraseology allows for
> the judgment to belong to the Lord and acknowledges that you as an observer
> could be mistaken.  Who am I to judge the servant of another.

Exactly. Even your phrase has a hint of judgment in it -- it strongly implies that
the person in question should be "walking" with your notion of how he should be
living his life.

Why not just let that person be? If  the person chooses to walk with Hinduism or
Buddhism, would you still refer to him as "not walking with the Lord?"
Fred
===================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

As for a Hindu walking or not with the Lord depends on
how liberal you are.  I believe there are many like Ghandi
who have hearts more inclined to the Lord than, dare I say,
myself?
Although, I know I'm his son, and there's nothing I can do
about that (I've tried!)
As for heaven and hell on earth, I believe we can have some
control over that.  But as for the afterlife.  I believe in a heaven
and apparently a hell.  Don't you think some of the people in
"Cube" were candidates for either place?
I watched the movie Sunday night and was angry at the ending.
But Monday I started thinking about it and thought about the
ending and also the study on human nature and our relationship
with the government.  It's a good movie.
========================================================
From: Tbrros@aol.com

Jeez this is easy.  Anyone who STewie thought was backslidden was backslidden.
Anyone whom dared to disagree with such a faithful and loving STeward was
backsidden(ROFHLOL).

Tod

ROFHLOL=Rolling on floor HYSTERICALLY laughing out loud
 

DISCLAIMER(Any sarcasm is completely intentional and added for your reading
pleasure)
======================================
From: Tbrros@aol.com

1,2,3,4,5, (my mom always told me when something irritated me to count to
ten and maybe it would pass) 6,7,8,9, 10

There it worked(Phwew!)

Tod
============================================
From: Tbrros@aol.com

My last comments and counting was pointed to Fred whom while not completely
wrong about the mindsets of some Christians being off track to me continually
throws out generalizations that cover only the part of the equation that fits
his perspective.
================================================
From: "Jeff  C. Benninger" <jeffBenninger@compuserve.com>

it even got easier than that , we were all backslidden period and had to
somehow suffer enough and say how bad we were in order to get God to even
look at us. Had to face our morbid situation and stand up in front of
everyone and volunteer to jump into the lake of fire, then it got worse you
actually had to say "I am in hell , the flames are around me , the worms
are eating my feet , etc. (can't remember the rest of the speech). Somehow
this might get God to look at you since you were facing how bad you were.
One such speech , you would wave a paper over your head , called the
recipe, and say some nonsense about how bad you were and how you would obey
this recipe. Far out stuff. About as unbiblical and mind wrenching as you
can  imagine , I suppose it could get worse.

Jeff B.
================================================
From: "Carol Stutts" <cstutts@kih.net>

Oh Gosh Jeff...   my friend Sunday shared with me that people had to
proclaim they were going to hell...    Can't imagine how awful that was...
pray that people don't get so depressed they don't start committing
suicide.

This is further proof of my belief in the power of belief...  I will share
that sometime.

Carol Stutts
======================================================
From: dpetini@nni.com (Doris Petini)

That is sad....
to say a christian is going to hell is denying the power of the cross!

Actually God used that COBU mentality to get me to leave COBU. They told me
I was going to hell along with a friend of mine who was just murdered
(another COBU victim).
I knew Jesus well enough that was a crock of doodoo. It was the last time I
ever went to COBU. It took me YEARS to get to where I am now..hmmmm ...14
years. I pray God's superabundant grace and healing on those who leave and
that they don't have to go through that tormenting dead period many of us
went through and that God takes out Stewart and I don't really care how HE
does it :)

Doris
=================================================
From: "Jeff  C. Benninger" <jeffBenninger@compuserve.com>

Carol,
Millicent lives here in the DC Area she married a pastor from her Church.
LuWonda talks to her once in a while. Her married name is Millicent haupt
and they have five children last I knew.

Jeff B.

I have heard of Rich Cuza over the years and I know they are in the Lord
=======================================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

Yes Rich and Pat(Dugan) Cuza are doing well. He is in the army. Don't know
if he is over there. Pat sounds great.
MM
=====================================================
From: dpetini@nni.com (Doris Petini)

"So ST was manipulating the minds of people to believe the way he wanted
them too.... "

and all to feed his pride and stuff his wallet...all self ..self...self....
we all remember the rich man in the bible right? Think Stu would part with
his planes and money and idol status..nopers :)

Doris
=========================================================
From: "Carol Stutts" <cstutts@kih.net>

Anybody ever see the poem a child lives what it learns?  Well that is where
I'm coming from her....

-if you believe you will get "7X's worse".... you will
-if you believe you will achieve a successful life....  you will
(and the definition for success is your own to define, no one can define it
for you)
-if you believe that you can be kind to others...  you will
-if you believe that you are old, you will age fast.. and probably be
grouchy too..LOL

However, I'm not that egotistical that I think the following:
-Your belief can stop a war
-Your belief can stop the spread of disease... (my belief can't make my
husband better)..   recently a pastors wife died of cancer, I was told
someone said, if she had more faith she would have been healed... I don't
believe that... I do believe the person who said that is a jerk though..
-Your belief can cure the world of its problems...

Mainly, your belief effects only your part in this world.... did that make
sense??

So ST was manipulating the minds of people to believe the way he wanted
them too....
Carol Stutts
=====================================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

I got a letter last year from a sister who recently left. She said that they
were being taught to say  "I hate Jesus"  That the truth of their lives was
just that and that they might as well say it.  She also said they were
taught to say, My name is ___________ and I am volunteering for the Lake of
fire.   Brethren, we must take all the action we can to liberate our
brethren from this wickedness. Tonight   10:30PM EASTERN  WE HIT the Floor
and GO TO WAR. .....ahh...you know I mean prayer right?

MM
====================================================
>
>From: "Jeff  C. Benninger" <jeffBenninger@compuserve.com>
>
>it even got easier than that , we were all backslidden period and had
to
>somehow suffer enough and say how bad we were in order to get God to
even
>look at us. Had to face our morbid situation and stand up in front of
>everyone and volunteer to jump into the lake of fire, then it got worse
you
>actually had to say "I am in hell , the flames are around me , the
worms
>are eating my feet , etc. (can't remember the rest of the speech).
Somehow
>this might get God to look at you since you were facing how bad you
were.
>One such speech , you would wave a paper over your head , called the
>recipe, and say some nonsense about how bad you were and how you would
obey
>this recipe. Far out stuff. About as unbiblical and mind wrenching as
you
>can  imagine , I suppose it could get worse.
>
>Jeff B.
>=====================================================
Jeff....  I am weeping.....

Carol Stutts
======================================================
From: "Rod Huffman" <arelach@hotmail.com>

You're serious?!?!?!?!  (I trust that you are, but such absurdity
stretches the limits of credulity.)

This sounds more like a Saturday Night Live parody than an actual
account of 'Christian fellowship'.  But then truth is stranger than
fiction...

Can you imagine how the participants would recoil if someone showed them
a tape of 'someone else' doing that?
==================================================
From: "Carol Stutts" <cstutts@kih.net>

Rod,
briefly....I might think.."how can they believe that ... and say that", but
sadly I recall I was part of a "Christian Middle Retarded program", till
they threw me out for wanting to go to college.Seriously!!.. ironic isn't
it.  That was 20yrs ago!!  St. is the master manipulator....   he sees how
much he can get away with and goes the distance.  BTW, although I haven't
obtained my piece of paper yet, I am happy to report a very high average
thus far...   Retarded??!!##     I hope my son remembers what I told him...
if anyone ever tries to hold you captive, kick em in their ....!!  (Not
that anyone is chained at COBU... but mind control is powerful stuff!!

BTW, my intent in sharing about the classification we were given is not
meant to insult anyone. (hopefully you knew that already)  I know a
retarded young man at a church I used to go too.  The pastor said he was
one of his favorite people, cause all he ever wanted from the pastor was a
hug and always gave the pastor a smile!!
Carol Stutts
================================================
From: dpetini@nni.com (Doris Petini)
This sounds more like a Saturday Night Live parody than an actual
>account of 'Christian fellowship'.  But then truth is stranger than
>fiction...
>
ROFLOL...I can just see the "church lady" from Saturday Live marching up to
Stewart with her hands on her hips saying to him, "who could it be
now,eh?..satan??" well I did the church lady victory dance when I left
COBU..maybe we should all march into a big meeting and do the church lady
victory dance? ROFLOL
Doris
======================================================
From: JThomas945@aol.com

From: john Thomas

Fred,
Do you think that all philosophies and belief systems are equal?
=========================================================
From: "Owen D Camp" <DOCOC@prodigy.net>

>From Owen
 

>From: dpetini@nni.com (Doris Petini)
>
>That is sad....
>to say a christian is going to hell is denying the power of the cross!

            Quite true.  Jesus will search out His sheep and bring them
            back.  But those who are not His sheep will be left to stray
            and "get 7 times worse"  (however defined), and will perish.

>Actually God used that COBU mentality to get me to leave COBU. They told me
>I was going to hell along with a friend of mine who was just murdered
>(another COBU victim).
>I knew Jesus well enough that was a crock of doodoo. It was the last time I
>ever went to COBU. It took me YEARS to get to where I am now..hmmmm ...14
>years. I pray God's superabundant grace and healing on those who leave and
>that they don't have to go through that tormenting dead period many of us
>went through and that God takes out Stewart and I don't really care how HE
>does it :)
>
>Doris
>
                                      Yours Truly
            Owen Camp Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
=================================================
From: Dee Law <musicheaven@yahoo.com>

Now that is truly scary!  Funny how the crew who
explained the "Escape Recipe" to me neglected to
mention the part about jumping into the lake of
fire...

- Dee
==================================================
From:  Owen
        Dear All
       Since we're on the subject of weeeiirrrddd stuff, let me inject a (relatively) lighter note:
        In late 87 or early 88, at one of our weekly (OB?) meetings on sunday at woodruff:  We had our usual dreary drawn-out "divisions".  But this time ST injected a 4th category.  He invited some to say that they "chose death".  That they "were too weary to repent".  I suppose that the brethren that "chose death" thought "I'm being honest! about my rebellion".  BUT the next day ST called us and made an announcement about how terrible it is to "choose death" and he wondered "if they can ever be forgiven".  Thus for the next few months this group had to strive mightily to "be restored".  Oh, and we couldn't associate with them while they were thus classified.
        After I left (Indepence day weekend 88), I was afraid  to say anything like "yeah I'm choosing to walk away from Jesus".  So I handled the bros who called me gingerly.  (Until spring 89 when they "were no longer born again".)
        I thought of this when I read the e-mail about how they were pressured to say "I hate Jesus".  I would have thought they'd be afraid to say such a thing because of the aforementioned story.
                                      Yours Truly
            Owen Camp Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
======================================================
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:56:22 -0700 "Michael Montoya"
<montoya@integrityonline1.com> writes:
>From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
>
>I got a letter last year from a sister who recently left. She said
>that they
>were being taught to say  "I hate Jesus"  That the truth of their
>lives was
>just that and that they might as well say it.  She also said they were
>taught to say, My name is ___________ and I am volunteering for the
>Lake of
>fire.   Brethren, we must take all the action we can to liberate our
>brethren from this wickedness. Tonight   10:30PM EASTERN  WE HIT the
>Floor
>and GO TO WAR. .....ahh...you know I mean prayer right?
>
>MM
======================================================

From: John P King <jpkinghome@juno.com>

I like that hit the floor and go to war .  Maybe one of you acrosticalkly
gifted brethren will come up with a truly appropriate name for our Weds
nihgt prayer time- you know something that spells something just right
like - I don't know. I'm not gifted at this and what comes to mind would
be difficult to make into an acronym.  I guess i'll just hit the floor
and go to war.  This is soooo encouraging.

Ellen
===============================================
From: lori <lledonne@ncx.com>
There was a time probably in 88 or 89 when we would go out witnessing and follow
it up with a meeting at Woodruff. At this one meeting, we had to put ourselves
in one of two categories. It was fully there or something like fighting the
Holy Spirit----something against the Holy Spirit. No middle ground. No being
changed from one degree of glory to another. I tried to squirm out of that one
but the brethren wouldn't accept what I said. This is another example of having
words put in your mouth. I hated myself at that meeting for conceding. The one
Jeff mentioned, standing in hell and waving his recipe over their heads sounds
like some scene out of a witchcraft movie. It's not just weird, I think it's
evil. It reminds me of the evil people who would stand the Christians up in
front of them and tell them to either denounce Jesus or be killed.  And yet,
here we were, thinking we were trying to be honest and face facts about
ourselves, all the while knowing somewhere inside that this didn't describe us.
The righteousness of God that depends on faith.  Philippians says, "whatever is
true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is
lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything
worthy of praise, think about these things."  In contrast, Stewart's focus was
always on whatever was bad.  I was reading the Psalms this morning trying to
find a song I know is in there and I read this:
"Be still before the Lord, and wait patiently for him; fret not yourself over
him who prospers in his way, over the man who carries out evil devices!
Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath!  Fret not yourself; it tends only to
evil.  For the wicked shall be cut off; but those who wait for the Lord shall
possess the land. Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more;  though
you look well at his place, he will not be there.  But the meek shall possess
the land, and delight themselves in abundant prosperity. (further down)  I have
seen a wicked man overbearing, and towering like a cedar of Lebanon.  Again I
passed by, and, lo he was no more;  though I sought him, he could not be
found."  Ps. 37
It's good to remember that Jesus sees it all and Stewart won't go unpunished.
It also makes me all the more eager to pray tonight.  Lori
=================================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

Actually I took the Hit the floor and go to war from Nancy Coogan saying
"Gonna do some carpet time" so Nancy C...heres looking at ya... How bout we
call ourselves the Rug Warriors or the Carpet Commandos or the Fighting
Fiery Fibers.  Or the Berber Bombardiers.....please stop me...I can't
stop....

MM
======================================================
From: dpetini@nni.com (Doris Petini)

as long as it isn't christian brothers carpet cleaners...ROFLOL
Doris
\==================================================
From:  Owen
        Dear Folks
       A light bulb just went off in my head, and I feel stupid because it didn't go off sooner.
 
        Why would ST want his flock to feel condemned?
 
        A) What do we avoid when we feel condemned?  WITNESSING
        B) What do you do when you're avoiding witnessing?  HIDE IN THE PHYSICAL
        C) Specifically?  MAKE $$$
        D) For whom?........
                                      Yours Truly
            Owen Camp Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
==========================================================================