Questions & Answers (Part VI)
Specific answers to questions in these puzzling times.
Still Rewriting Questions 37-57.
Hopefully it will be finished sometime in the near future
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Question Thirty Seven: Personally, I think you are playing games here. Jesus to me is adding something to the law that was not stated by Moses or God. Jesus is being a little more charitable than Moses / God and in fact adding a new condition and state for a marriages disolvemant (i.e. Divorce). In other words, the only reason Jesus permits divorce is for adultery and the reason He permits it is because we are to be merciful to people and not stone them anymore. . In regards to what Paul says in 1 Cor 7:11,12 I balance that off with what Jesus said in Matthew 19:9 and come up with the new covenant / Christian doctrine that Christians should not divorce their spouse except for adultery, So...
Answer: You sound like a model Christian and a great disciple of the Lord. I’m sure Jesus is proud to know you and can’t wait to tell you that in person when He sees you.
Listen - “disciple” - , you are dealing with many many separate but related subjects : Justice/ Law/ Old Covenant vs. Mercy/Grace/ New Covenant. YOU ARE ALSO DEALING WITH STATEMENTS MADE TO PEOPLE WITH TWO VERY DIFFERENT TYPES OF NATURE (i.e. people with an old nature and people with a new nature) No matter how you thread that thread you can’t hop back and forth between the significance of those facts and covenants the way you do.
In light of some new information this question is being rewritten and should be finished sometime in August (it is very involved). If anything I will come down harder on divorce than I did previously and may have to rewrite sections of this site.
”What therefore God has joined together let no man separate” Matthew 19:6
‘But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and a worse tear results. Nor do men put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out, and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.’ Matthew 9:16,17
See , what this means is New Wine (New Covenant Teachings) in old wine skins (Man’ s Nature under Old Covenant) will not work. Man will break under the load. (See Matthew 19:10 His disciples could only bear the writ of divorce, forget about staying married in anything beyond that (i.e. adultery). They had a real problem in dealing with the merciful standards of the Old Covenant. Forget about any HIGHER standard)
Again, the old cannot be combined with the new. But since Jesus has died we are a New Creation (New Wine Skins) Therefore we can hold the New Covenant teachings of forgiveness and restoration. If we can’t, either we are not saved (i.e. not have New Nature) or have not yet learned how to die to self. That’s pretty much it.
And by the way this is the correct teaching on
Not the fluff that was going on recently in a lot of churches. (What a bunch of watered down hogwash. Trash really, true true trash.)
Including a section on how to
preach it, and teach it to your congregation
Click Here
“but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity(por-ni-ah) , makes her commit adultery(moy-khah-o) ; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery (moy-khah-o) ” Matthew 5:32Notice that Jesus DOES NOT SAY that adultery (moy-khah-o) is grounds for a person to divorce but fornication (por-ni-ah). These are two separate words from two separate word groups and should be kept that way. If Jesus was granting people permission to divorce on the basis of Adultery - as you say - He would have used that word, and since HE DID NOT he must be talking about something else all together.
“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality(por-ni-ah) , and marries another woman commits adultery(moy-khah-o) .” Matthew 19:9
Fornication is not adultery, they are committed under entirely different circumstances. If a married person committed fornication at best - according to the Greek - you would be talking about incest (por-ni-ah) (CLICK HERE) or maybe a spouses sudden discovery of the other spouses hidden pre marital life as a fornicator (por-ni-ah) (CLICK HERE) but these are the things - at best - you can argue for. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PERSON CAN GET A DIVORCE ON THE GROUNDS OF ADULTERY, Maybe I should say that again in case you missed it, IT DOES NOT SAY - ACCORDING TO THE GREEK - THAT A PERSON CAN GET A DIVORCE ON THE GROUNDS OF ADULTERY. If fact Jesus would address THAT situation later when He is confronted with a person caught in the very act of adultery (i.e. He forgives them, John 8). If Jesus could forgive someone caught in adultery, so should we.
Again, the question of “what to do in the case of adultery?” is NOT the question at all in Matthew 5 and 19, so your question (#37 ) is a faulty question already. Again, the question in Matthew chapters 5 & 19 is “What to do in the case of fornication?” And even there, it’s not really what to do, it’s more like you can do it if you choose, but according to John 8 it may not be the best thing.
If Jesus meant divorce on the basis of Adultery He would have said as much. You should really ask yourself why Jesus used two different words in those verses to describe two very different sins, before you jump to conclusions. Jesus is concerned about the issue of fornication here. He will deal with the issue of adultery later.
For a further discussion of the word fornication (por-ni-ah)
(Click Here)
And PS I really don’t agree with the “incest (por-ni-ah) or prostitute (por-ni-ah) angle”, even though both are terrible terrible sins Jesus does talk about prostitutes (or "professional" fornicators according to the Greek) entering heaven before the religious people of His day. Therefore, it was a sin that could be forgiven (and if Jesus could forgive it (por-ni-ah) - as well as adultery - how could we not forgive it?). The sin of incest is a terrible sin too. I really cant’ think of a worse sin, but from what I have heard over the years even that terrible sin can be forgive (see proof-text in 1 Cor 5:5), What Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 is the state of a relationship between the actually signing of a marriage covenant - under the Law - and the actually consummation (or God “Joining Together”) the parties in the covenant. In other words the (Jewish?) pre marital - covenant IS A LEGITIMATE COVENANT AND MUST BE KEPT BY MAN, but because it has not been consummated (JOINED TOGETHER verse), it could be broken, on the grounds of fornication, but only on those ground could it be broken. (It has to do with the nature of the type of the two fold covenant that it is [Click Here] for a further discussion). Once the covenant was consummated (i.e. the second part of it completed) that would be it. It was a done deal. What God has JOINED together (i.e. intercourse) let no man take apart comes into play. For Jesus pre marital covenants can be broken for they are covenants that are not in force until they are consummated (i.e. joined together). IOW’s since God didn’t put them together yet they - the two parties - can be legally separated. [And for those of you that say that fornication - in pre marriage - is OK for divorce, but adultery - in post marriage - isn’t, what you are really doing is breaking the spirit of John 8 (forgiving bad sins in a relationship), Again - since Jesus uses the word fornication (porniah) AND WIFE in the same verse theses verses MUST be talking about Post engagement/ pre marriage situations. They (i.e. the Jewish people he was addressing) knew what He was talking about.]Also remember, Jesus had a forgiving heart, if you find yourself involved in the above post engagement / pre marital situation (and I’m not really sure how this applies to our culture, but scripture is quite clear in Romans that God treats Jews and Gentiles alike), If you find yourself in the above situation remember. Jesus is not saying that you should “divorce” the “spouse” you are engaged too (If they commit fornication during the engagement period), He is only saying that if you do end the engagement COVENANT on the basis of fornication that you will not be guilty of breaking the “marriage” covenant, for it’s not really a consummated covenant (See the parallel lesson of a Nun or Priest who “opt outs” before they take their FINAL vows). WHAT JESUS WAS DOING IN MATTHEW 5 AND 19 WAS CLARIFYING WHAT A MARRIAGE COVENANT WAS ( I.E. A TWO PART COVENANT). For Jesus you can forgive fornication (Pre marital / post engagement sex) as well as adultery (post marital sex), but with adultery you are “stuck” in the covenant, with fornication there is an out. The Old Covenant Law was not concerned about divorce on account of FORNICATION for death was prescribed that (so you need to rephrase your question 37), Again what Jesus is talking about is fornication (por-ni-ah) NOT adultery (moy-khah-o) otherwise He would have used that word.
For a discussion of the Jewish use of the word “wife”
Click Here
Click Here
For other verses that uses the word Por-ni-ah,
as well as other verses that uses the word Moy-khah-o (Adultery)
Click Here
For the understanding of
Jewish culture in reference to the word Wife
Click Here
For the case for por-ni-ah meaning
the state of the Jewish engagement period
Click Here
For Footnotes
Click Here
Still another preview of what is to come...
1) The never married ( 1 Cor 7:25)
2) Christian’s married to an unbeliever who leaves ( 1 Cor 7:15)
3) Christians married to an unbeliever who stays ( 1 Cor 7: 12,13)
4)AND... CHRISTIANS MARRIED TO EACH OTHER!!! ( 1 Cor 7: 10,11)
Now ask yourself something... do Christians, real Christians ever ever divorce each other? If your answer is “yes” then I can guarantee you that your definition of “Christian” is really really wrong. Jesus said that what your would do unto the least of my brethren you do unto me. Would a Christian divorce Jesus? Of course not, the why do you argue - especially in light of the above verse - that Christians can divorce each other? Jesus does not give permission in 1 Cor 7:10, 11 for divorce and remarriage of Christians. At most He allows for separation, but the spouses MUST REMAIN UNMARRIED. Your wrong to bring in 1 Corinthians the way you do.
PS. read the chapter in reverse order ot get the full effect of verse 10 and 11. Also remember to pay CLOSE ATTENTION to what Paul is ALSO saying in verse 10....
”But to the married I give instructions, not I, BUT THE LORD (JESUS)”IOW’s the same person with whom you pin your hopes on for your divorce in Matthew 5 & 19 is also saying to you in 1 Corinthians NOT to divorce your Christian spouse.
Conclusion of Question 37
Questions and Answers
Click Here
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Feel free to improve on any of the pages you copy.
Also, feel free to use this entire sites content (Music, Theology, Divorce and Remarriage etc.) in any way you wish (for example: if you wish to publish a page in whole or in part in another medium (let’s say in tract or book form), you have my permission to do so (and you don’t have to inform me or put my name on the work).
You can also sell the work at a profit if you wish, just having these works circulating in the world is reward enough for me).
Again, this is an open source web site. The code (as well as content) is free to all. Feel free to tinker, dabble and fiddle around with both code and content. God is a very creative Spirit. Who knows what kind of page(s) you will develop. Also, who knows what kind of influential tracts or books you may write. (If you want you can change the sentence structures around and put this sites content in your own words. Then put your name on the book or tract and shop it around to some publishers. Most of this sites content is desperately in need of rewrite so putting your name on a rewritten work is probably a good idea, actually a very good idea).
May God bless you in your efforts.
P.S. If you copy these pages to a server make sure you place your own e-mail address on the pages so people will know whom to write if they have any questions (you can also leave my e-mail address on them if you wish (i.e. StevenMRyan@cs.com), but as of now I don’t have the time to answer everyone’s questions so I think your e-mail address would be a better idea).
Thus you can have your own web site [Angelfire (Lycos ) offers free web pages as well as many other sites Click here and ask around].
Periodically I will update the links on these pages. Below you will find the dates of the ‘last update’ of a particular page. If you wish you can use the below “updates” as a guide to update your own pages or you can update your own at you own discretion.
Feel free to improve on any of the pages you copy.
Also, feel free to use this entire sites content (Music, Theology, Divorce and Remarriage etc.) in any way you wish (for example: if you wish to publish a page in whole or in part in another medium (let’s say in tract or book form), you have my permission to do so (and you don’t have to inform me or put my name on the work).
You can also sell the work at a profit if you wish, just having these works circulating in the world is reward enough for me).
Again, this is an open source web site. The code (as well as content) is free to all. Feel free to tinker, dabble and fiddle around with both code and content. God is a very creative Spirit. Who knows what kind of page(s) you will develop. Also, who knows what kind of influential tracts or books you may write. (If you want you can change the sentence structures around and put this sites content in your own words. Then put your name on the book or tract and shop it around to some publishers. Most of this sites content is desperately in need of rewrite so putting your name on a rewritten work is probably a good idea, actually a very good idea).
May God bless you in your efforts.
P.S. If you copy these pages to a server make sure you place your own e-mail address on the pages so people will know whom to write if they have any questions (you can also leave my e-mail address on them if you wish (i.e. StevenMRyan@cs.com), but as of now I don’t have the time to answer everyone’s questions so I think your e-mail address would be a better idea).
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