November 10, 1989

ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up. The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada. Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving flying disks provided by alien intelligences.

Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to possible involvement with the government in projects of this nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has started an intensive investigation into this release. It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over the last few months. Lear has appeared on Channel 8 on numerous occasions together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET Hypothesis.' According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear with locations overlooking the test site which would provide a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. Lear attempted to shoot video of an object as it maneuvered through the night sky during last summer, however nothing was captured on the tape of a substantive nature. Lear also relates that his group was harassed by a Lincoln County sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures.

Below is a transcript of the program that aired this evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription, however there are a couple of places where comments were edited out due to inability to understand what was being said.

Further reports will be provided as information becomes available. ==============================================================

We've been working on the story for some time....UFO researchers claim that there is a secret government within our government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people. This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight. It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada].

Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on. These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again. The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection equipment. Its been known by many names over the years -- Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's exactly what has been done here for decades.

Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2 pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the people that do live out here have no love lost for the military, but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own business.

Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see something that you can't explain?"

Resident: "Sure, lots of times."

Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?"

Resident: "No." (Laughter).

On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them, but they are not going to talk to you. Not about the things that they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity- seekers flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange stories of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered. No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged what so many people have suspected for years: That alien technology is being tested in the Nevada desert.

The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius. The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12, states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will not say what Project Aquarius is.

Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by most accounts, illegal. During Congressional hearings about the land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force. Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force sought to renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent articles in national magazines quoted un-named sources about things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the saucer story.

Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in six European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in Japan.

Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A young scientist with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis" was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.

Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up the phone."

Lazar's story is by any standard, fantastic. He says he's telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake. At S-4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors and other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond human capabilities.

Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be done."

Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him. He says he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there. They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if someone has made him disappear.

Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the places that I called...."

Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?"

Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."

He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the United States Navy. He says he and other government employees would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to S-4.

Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?"

Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether it's to disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."

He says he was never told exactly what he would be working on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion. On his first day he was told to read a series of briefings, and immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.

Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive mechanism. It's a bizarre technology. There is no physical hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."

It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.

Lazar: "Right. They had a poster, and it looked like a commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These posters were all over the place."

Later, he got to see the real thing.

Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the 'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on it, just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to see actually lift off the ground and operate."

Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?"

Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment pack."

Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.

Lazar: "They did everything but physically hurt me."

Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?"

Lazar: "Yeah."

Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?"

Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing. Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work."

That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.

Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen anti-gravity propulsion in operation?"

Lazar: "No."

The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive.

Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar might be relating information he'd learned from someone else. The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can be conducted. And that's where it stands.

Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.

Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that. What's going on up there could be the most important event in history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence. Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it. I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything that goes with it."

Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S- 4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the scientific community. ==============================================================

SITE/AREA 51 UFO REPORT

My introduction to the partial transcript of the program contains certain presumptions -- rather than evidence -- which may be misleading. These presumptions were based on prior SEPARATE KLAS-TV telecasts with Lear and with a "Dennis" -- now revealed as Robert Lazar.

It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over the last few months. The extent to which Lazar has interfaced with Lear is unknown. In fact, Lear appears to have had a number of Nevada Test Site sources, any one of whom could have provided him with the Area 51 information.

According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear with locations overlooking the test site which would provide a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. In fact, it is unknown who -- if anyone -- steered Lear to the specific locations overlooking the Nevada Test Site. Lear has made no statement regarding Lazar in this regard.

As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.

Rather than being situated at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Area 51 lies in the northeast corner of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site at Mercury, Nevada, which is 65 miles north of Nellis Air Force Base.

Mike

Date: 14-Nov-89 03:22

From: Robert Klinn

To: All

Subj: Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base?

With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.

Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge that there are seven existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds.

Disinformation? Reality?

What next?

At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking down the nature of the on-going projects at Area 51. Off-air, Meek says he has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of four sections. Of those, he has learned the type of activity occurring at two of them. He has been having much difficulty learning the type of activity occurring at the other two.

KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri. In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp, a UFO performs abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test Site. Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at approximately 6:15 p.m.

Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the craft he saw operating at the base.

Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices. Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile.

War of the Worlds?

Robert B. Klinn

Date: 15-Nov-89 01:55

From: Michael Corbin

To: All

Subj: Installment on Dreamland continued.

November 13, 1989

ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and George Knapp. ==============================================================

News Anchor persons:

A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S. military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday [November 10, 1989].

Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series on UFOs.

Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh, other than Earth."

Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it the "sport model."

Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone through it."

Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed the inside of the disk.

Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled]. And things began to click together just all too fast."

A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May [showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a test flight he witnessed.

Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any, like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about 20 or 30 feet."

Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one -- that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very impressed, nonetheless.

Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no propeller, no noise. It's just, for all intents and purposes, magic."

To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used, for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program and were a main source of his disenchantment.

Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands of the overall scientific community. There are people much more capable of dealing with this information, and by this time would have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't even have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're dealing with."

Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."

Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and that some things are properly kept confidential.

Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter. Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't believe that. But, I do."

When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain.

Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around. It starts coming up the mountain range...."

This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to the Groom Mountains [showing video tape. A lot of talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the object....].

Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because, with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second sighting:

Huff: "Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got the feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's that....Just like you see in the movies."

Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge" of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional, who once served in the military and was stationed at the test site, said he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that. The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.

None of this means that the military is actually flying alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not the case.

We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices were contacted. All denied having any information in their files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our request, the Navy couldn't find those files either.

Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have executive power -- they don't report to anyone."

Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military potential of alien technology. ==============================================================

This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.

End of file

Subject: INFO: Chuck Harder interview of George Knapp -LAZAR

Date: 4 Jul 91 02:09:19 GMT

This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to montanian@hotmail.com in mail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

The following file(s) appeared on the Paranet UFO network in the late 1989 to 1990 time period. The following files are on Robert Lazar and are copyrighted by Paranet to insure their integrity. I have not gotten express permission to re-publish them here; however it's my *intent* to make them available for their informational content only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the Chuck Harder radio interview "For The People" of George Knapp, regarding Robert Lazar. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS, NEVADA) ON NOVEMBER 17, 1989. INTERVIEWED BY CHUCK HARDER, HOST AND MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.

CHUCK HARDER

My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his own protection. George, are you there...

GEORGE KNAPP Hello Chuck.

CHUCK HARDER Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...

GEORGE KNAPP That's right.

CHUCK HARDER George, what do you do for a living?

GEORGE KNAPP I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate here.

CHUCK HARDER So you are a TV newsman...

GEORGE KNAPP Right.

CHUCK HARDER And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...

GEORGE KNAPP Right.

CHUCK HARDER I understand that you have come upon some very interesting information and you've done some special reports, could you tell us about it...?

GEORGE KNAPP Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with UFOs.

Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers, that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him live in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we got response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in more depth.

We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions of people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies' -- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists, although they might be interested in searching the universe for radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard -- they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism - - the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured out that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the 'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday. His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life was disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We called for his Birth records and they had disappeared...as if someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there, they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own gravitational field...technology that does not exist on this planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built like for children...and then things started coming together for him. Are you with me Chuck?

CHUCK HARDER I'm listening.

GEORGE KNAPP Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...

CHUCK HARDER Oh I think you ought to keep going.

GEORGE KNAPP Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he was being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus he's on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.

CHUCK HARDER Ummmmmm.....

GEORGE KNAPP He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!

CHUCK HARDER Wow...

GEORGE KNAPP We showed that video as well...

CHUCK HARDER Uh-huh....

GEORGE KNAPP Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits of his story from other people, a former security guard who worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former technician...

CHUCK HARDER By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people postmarked from that area, one inside of a base, who tells me what you're saying is true. Keep going.

GEORGE KNAPP Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...

CHUCK HARDER George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand by.

>>>>At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<

(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have just tuned in...)

CHUCK HARDER How many reports did you do, George?

GEORGE KNAPP We did nine total in this series.

CHUCK HARDER Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me that a scientist named Bob Lazar...

GEORGE KNAPP Right...

CHUCK HARDER Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?

GEORGE KNAPP Yes.

CHUCK HARDER Cause I have letters from people who are at Nellis. Some of which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America.

GEORGE KNAPP Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to 7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane that's doing this. We also interviewed the other people who went with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well. We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of course the Navy denied having any information on the programs. Of course in those requests we also asked for other information about UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of faith in the FOIA requests.

CHUCK HARDER In other words, what you're saying is that your organization which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'

GEORGE KNAPP Exactly...that's exactly correct!

CHUCK HARDER I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say, 'Well, er, no we don't remember...'

GEORGE KNAPP The government says that they have done these studies that say that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the scenes they are very concerned about the national security implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't be caught, things of that nature. So the government from what I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't really understand it. The government on the other hand has outright lied concerning what information it does have...the CIA for example says it doesn't collect any information on UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.

CHUCK HARDER Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture, give me some information...

GEORGE KNAPP Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after that he got to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up, did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the government, but because the research that's being done up there is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for as long as forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he said he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of a reverse archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the things that these machines can do using earth technologies and earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have 500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the reasons that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...

CHUCK HARDER But this is kind of common with the United States government...I read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where one group in one part of the country is working on a project and I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the beans as he has been trying to do.

CHUCK HARDER Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does he feel should be done?

GEORGE KNAPP Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to save his own life. He started having some problems when it became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone else about this.

CHUCK HARDER We're talking about Bob Lazar now...

GEORGE KNAPP Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up! He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime against the entire scientific community...not only the American people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific community. So, what else can I tell ya?

CHUCK HARDER What does he say about the aliens?

GEORGE KNAPP He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some aliens up there...

CHUCK HARDER Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and I don't think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are aliens up there, at least one...

CHUCK HARDER Live?

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...

CHUCK HARDER What did they look like?

GEORGE KNAPP Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as well because it sounds so crazy...

CHUCK HARDER I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA, stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall Street Journal about the questions about the truthfulness and what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!

GEORGE KNAPP Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on other things, how could the coverup exist?

CHUCK HARDER Oh, I'll tell you...

GEORGE KNAPP To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits and pieces, who's going to believe it?

CHUCK HARDER Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?

GEORGE KNAPP Yes...

CHUCK HARDER For those who are listening, I got into this investigation because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on. So we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations. I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests) live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same place, (runway) do you remember that...?

GEORGE KNAPP Yes...

CHUCK HARDER My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was, probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they want out of it.

CHUCK HARDER So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it to the paper, everybody laughs at him!

GEORGE KNAPP There are actual documents the government has released (Under Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to produce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away UFO sightings seen by thousands of people as the constellation ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the planet.

CHUCK HARDER Uh huh...

GEORGE KNAPP He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing, Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED! One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!

CHUCK HARDER Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...

GEORGE KNAPP Right...

CHUCK HARDER Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...

GEORGE KNAPP You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch on that, we also did some investigation on that...

CHUCK HARDER Ok, go ahead.

GEORGE KNAPP Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the UFO community but when we put questions to them about the case they can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case and started going over the evidence. The photos had been analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate with them.

CHUCK HARDER We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple Swiss farmer could have done it...

GEORGE KNAPP I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier, it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.

CHUCK HARDER The new ones or the old ones?

GEORGE KNAPP The new one.

CHUCK HARDER Ok, that's the one we've got.

GEORGE KNAPP Going back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy Meier.)

That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO) story.

>>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<

CHUCK HARDER I hoe that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you know why.

GEORGE KNAPP Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for President promised that if he was elected that he vowed to open all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved otherwise people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story, then open up the files and prove it to us!

CHUCK HARDER OK, have the government let the press into these areas and don't first clean them out... ============================================================== *@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@**

The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very use of the law is the instrument of illegality. -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92