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KCAR Meeting Minutes - January 19, 2002

Attendees, KCAR members:

  • Nick Stich - President
  • Theo Asir - Vice President
  • Bill Hensley - Member at Large
  • Tim Burger - Secretary/Treasurer
  • Pat Nelson
  • George Scheil
  • Andy Schienost
  • Jerome Tonneson
  • Bob Wingate

    Attendees, visitors:

  • Steve Adler
  • Joel Trigger
  • Rodney Van Meter
  • Paul Wood

    Tim gave a demonstration on assembling baffles and Jerome showed us how to operate the integrated radio and PA system, and the launch controller with the new relay box while we were waiting for everyone to arrive.

    The meeting was called to order.

    The secretary read a summary of the minutes for the last meeting and gave a report of the treasury. The balance of the treasury at the last meeting was $374.02. We have had one family and two individuals pay 2002 dues. We spent $4 for tarps, and spent $5 for an address book. That brings us to $407.02. The high power pad fund grew $5 to $180.

    1) Equipment, Water Fire Extinguisher - Nick started the discussion by stating that we voted last meeting to purchase a new water based one, spending up to $70. McMaster Carr lists one for $68 plus shipping. We discussed a regular extinguisher as opposed to a garden sprayer at the last meeting but settled on something designed specifically for fire fighting last time. George expressed a concern that something like this may be too heavy. Steve said that he's run a 100 feet with one before and that they aren't that heavy, fully charged. Steve went on to suggest that we might be able to find a used one from a fire extinguisher company that is no longer suitable for use in a school or business. George felt that if we purchase something this way that it will need tested. Nick's experience is that liability issues would prevent us from getting anything like that. Steve offered to attempt to find one or more extinguishers for the club, new or used, not spending more than $70.

    2) Launch Start times - Nick started this discussion by indicating some of the trouble we've had with people arriving in time to set up before the published start time. He suggested that 9:00 is too early. He suggested changing the start and setup times for the following launches:

  • Polar Bear launches seem to be taking care of themselves (secretary's note: we are publishing a start time of 11:00 for these launches.)
  • Sport launches
  • Local meets
  • Fall contest launch

    The question was asked "what time are the club members willing to arrive to set up the range?" Nick also stated that we are attempting to set the published time and that if anyone wanted to arrive early and set up to launch that they certainly could. He proposed the new time be 11:00. There were some protests that this might be to late, especially for contest. Andy recalled that there were really two groups of votes during the e-poll conducted earlier, those who would arrive and set up at 10:00 to 11:00 and those who would arrive and set up at 11:00 to noon. The proposed 11:00 time would fit with that majority. Bob suggested that an 11:00 start would not work at all well for contests, especially if the weather was bad on either of the two days of the Fall meet and suggested that 9:00 would be better. Nick said that we could start earlier for the Fall meet, and also for the two local meets if we felt we needed to. He reiterated that we are setting a time for publication, and that we could start earlier if we wanted to but not later. Tim mentioned that the local meets require only four flights (two flights in two events) and that getting in four qualifying flights in six hours (11:00 to 5:00) should not be any trouble. At this point, Nick motioned that the official setup time be set at 11:00 with the start time commencing as soon as the range is ready. Pat seconded this. Andy questioned if that's early enough because of how long it took to set up the range. Nick indicated that he and Jerome had done it in about 30 minutes. Jerome corrected that to more like 45 minutes, but that is with two people and it wouldn't take quite as long if there were more. Nick stated again that this is for publication and that if Andy or anyone wanted to arrive earlier, set up and start flying that there's nothing to keep them from doing that. Bob thought that 11:00 might be too close to lunch and would cause people to purposely show up late causing a problem with a lot of waiting on the range after 1:00PM. Bob suggested a compromise of 10:30 setup and an 11:00 start. We all agreed that 9:00 is too early. Past launches have shown heaviest activity between about 1:00 and 4:00 with things being very slow between 4:00 and 5:00 most of the time. Bob likes the idea of cutting duty back to 30 minutes from an hour if we adopt an 11:00 set up time. Nick suggested that perhaps a better idea would be to go to a one man LCO/SCO amid protests that it is often too busy for that. Nick clarified his position to be that when it is slow early (first hour or so) and then again later (the last hour or so) that one guy can do it alone (and often already does) while the other guy does some flying. But when the table is busy or there is a line the second person can stop flying and come assist at the table. The idea of a thirty minute duty roster wasn't received well with it being stated that one shift would barely get going when it was time to change shifts again.

    A motion was made by Nick: All regular launches will have an 11:00AM setup and start time (meaning that flying will start as soon as the range is set up and ready) for all sport and local meet launches, and that the October meet will have a 9:00AM setup time on Saturday and a 10:00AM setup time on Sunday. Pat seconded this motion. Motion carried.

    3) Launch dates, June - we've been waiting to set the June date because we wanted to avoid conflicting with the schedule of the KRAMO meet in Wichita. Bob said that he's been in communication with Mark Johnson in Wichita and that they've selected the events but have yet to set a date. He indicated that he had sent e-mail earlier but that he wasn't able to check if he'd answered this morning. Bob recalled that they typically try to set the date for as early in the month of June as possible, and suggested that the problem isn't with the club but with the administrator of the Lake Afton Park. The KOSMO club is competing for weekends with other organizations. Since we'd like to get the date set, Bob suggested that we just go ahead at this point, and if the KRAMO meet falls on the same weekend the competitors will be excused from flying locally.

    Nick made a motion that we hold the June sport launch on the second Saturday in keeping with the rest of the year's schedule. The motion was seconded by Bill. Motion carried.

    4) Launch dates, High Power - The president began this topic by first stating that it his desire and belief that our club can support both high power rocketry as well as competition launches in addition to the normal sport launches. Nick would like to find a plan and schedule for launches whereby we can peacefully coexist. Bob stated for the record that he had been inadvertently harsh in some e-mail that was exchanged recently and wished to apologize. Bob expressed a level of nervousness that the hobby, all aspects of the hobby, might become regulated out of existence and that fear sometimes drives him to say things he shouldn't. We discussed Dan's suggestion (made using e-mail earlier) to fly at HPR locations on the third Saturday of even months (we meet on the third Saturday of the month in odd months.) It is felt that this is too many launches - the 11 normal launches, plus another five or six may be pushing it. Nick wants us to fly together and too many of us will have to choose which of the two launches to attend. Steve suggests that we don't want to conflict with other area clubs' high power launches, either. St. Louis holds HPR launches in April and October. The MOKAN, LDRS and two launches in Argonia should also be considered. Nick stated that we are not trying to attract fliers from other areas, but instead support the HPR fliers in our own club. There are several of us that would like to go to the Argonia Airfest and LDRS. Nick proposed that we divert two launches, one each from the Case farm and the Shawnee Mission park launches to the Drexel field, and add a third launch for Thanksgiving weekend at the Drexel field. He also would like to hold a Spring launch at the Reading field if it could be arranged. He stated for the record that since he's done the FAA paperwork that the FAA will require him to be responsible for the waivers, and the FAA will also require that he open and close the windows. He suggested that because of the drive, and because he's been getting the waivers issued at 11:00 that we should plan to start the launches at 11:00. Steve suggested that we might get night launch extensions added to the waivers. Nick stated that the FAA has been cutting off the times based on sundown, but that we could file a NOTAM and continue to fly mid and mod rockets at night. The last two launches had waivers expire at 5:00 and 4:30 respectively with the FAA contact reminding him when the cutoff was. We've attempted two night launches but the weather didn't cooperate. Since Nick is responsible for the waiver, Bob asked what dates will work best for him. We also discussed the Case Farm and the field size and therefore power limitations for the benefit of the newcomers. It's a sixteen-acre field, but we've been using the acreage surrounding the field for recovery on windy days. Nick stated that he intends to ask for open waivers this year to avoid problems with weather. This requires more paperwork and is more difficult to obtain which he outlined (but I'm not fast enough to catch). He went on to outline the problems with the Reading site's proximity with airline traffic. He did say that he can activate open waivers with 72 hours notice. It was stated that finding new fields is a continual, on-going task that all club members should be doing. Paul and Rodney offered an idea regarding the new racetrack. The track's proximity to the KC international airport may make getting waivers quite difficult. At this point we pulled out a copy of the current schedule of launches and located the most logical days by the process of elimination.

    Nick motioned that we move the June and August launches to the Tickwood Ranch, and schedule a third Tickwood launch for Friday, Saturday, or Sunday after Thanksgiving. Also a fourth launch at the Reading field in the Spring with the date to be determined later based on Larry Z.'s schedule. Bob seconded the motion. Motion carried by all but George who abstained.

    5) Charter and Insurance - the secretary asked when the NAR expects us to renew our charter, and which field(s) does club wish to add the $15 insurance policy on? The Case Farm goes without saying, but do we want to add the Drexel and Reading fields to the list? Do we need to get insurance for Shawnee Mission Park being that it's a public park? A brief discussion ensued in which the general consensus is that the Drexel and Reading fields won't be used enough to justify the expense, and that we as NAR members already carry insurance.

    Bob moved that we purchase NAR insurance for the Case Farm when we renew the charter, and authorizes the treasurer to spend the $25 for the charter and the $15 for the insurance. Seconded by Bill. Motion carried unanimously.

    6) Library display - Bob stated that the idea was to promote the hobby and the club by placing rockets and photos of the rockets in motion in the case. No one remembers if Dan had been able to reserve a case, nor what month if he had. Time is getting away from us and it will be flying season again soon. We originally planned to do this in January/February. It was suggested to shelve this idea until next year. Bob reminded us that we did that last year. We took a break while Bob went to inquire of the library staff. After the break, Bob reported that the librarian that normally is in charge of the cases is not in and that they will contact him later with information. Nick took a poll of members present to see who was willing to display rockets. Andy, Theo, Bill, and Tim expressed that they could and would display some rockets before the end of March. Bob offered to coordinate getting it done.

    7) Competitions - Meeting was turned over to George and Bob, contest directors.

    George started with the May and July meets. Two events have been selected on e-groups for both contests and he has volunteered to be contest director. He wants to offer first place prizes for both events in both meets and will require funds for that. Also, the NAR registration fee is $5 per contest. He wants to allow non-NAR members that are members of the club to be allowed to compete for prizes. NAR members would, of course, get NAR competition points. The forms are filled out and we need to decide what we're planning to do at this point. Nick stated that it would be ideal if the contests could be "revenue neutral." We all discussed and selected a name for the July event. We decided on "Fly 'n' Fry Summer Contest."

    Events for the Spring Fling are D Dual Eggloft Duration and E Streamer Duration. Events for the Fly 'n' Fry are D boost glider and D Super-roc.

    George then motioned that we allocate $10 for the registration fees for the events, allocate $60 for prizes, set a launch fee of $5 for the participants, and allow club members that are non-NAR members to compete alongside NAR members for the prize. Nick seconded. The discussion opened, and the question was asked about the launch fee being a part of the contest fee. It was suggested that the contest fee include the launch fee, but in doing so the fee should be a bit larger. Nick stated that he would like for the contests to be self supporting in that the fees should make up the costs for prizes and equipment. We amended the contest/launch fee to be $7. The motion carried with Theo and Nick abstaining.

    A motion was made by George for the secretary/treasurer to purchase from NARTS one dozen each official NAR contest ribbons for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Motion seconded by Bob. Motion carried with five votes in favor, and two abstaining.

    Bob then explained about giant sport scale. A qualifying rocket must be at least 100cm long OR 10cm in diameter. Special provisions are made for rockets with strap on boosters or having wings.

    Nick requested that Bob have the forms filled out and ready to go by the March meeting for the Rocketoberfest meet. Bob said he will do that and requested help (and forms) from George. The Rocketoberfest events will be Giant Sport Scale, Drag Race, Streamer Spot Landing, C Super-roc, and 1/2A helicopter duration.

    Bob put forth the idea that a third local meet might be possible this year, and volunteered to be CD. Suggested events were future/fantasy sport scale and D eggloft. Bob outlined the rules for F/F sport scale - must be a rocket that has appeared in a publication, publicly shown movie, or seriously proposed but not built. We discussed possible dates and interest. A section may hold up to five contests per year. Most of the proposed dates are either right next to an already scheduled event or are very soon. It was also questioned if Shawnee Mission Park can handle D eggloft due to field limitations. Nick took a poll of present members and found that most are unable to compete in this event due to time constraints, lack of interest, or other reasons. Bob stated that the F/F scale event may go away at the end of the test cycle this year, and that he would hate for us to miss out on a chance to enjoy it. The idea was shelved but we will actively consider making F/F scale an event next year.

    8) Equipment, HPR fund - Jerome motioned that we fill out the HPR fund by moving $20 from the treasury to the HPR fund bringing it up to $200 and enough to purchase the pads we've been planning. Seconded by Bill. We discussed briefly the Tower Launcher Pad fund which is at zero. It was suggested that we do the same for that fund, but was over-ruled until such time as contest interested fliers make at least one donation to the fund. The motion carried unanimously save for one abstaining vote. The fund, all $200, was turned over to Nick and Jerome to make the purchase with next time they visit Jim Ball thus saving on shipping. [Note: The pads cost $99 each. We will probably have to pay sales tax, too, bringing the total to approximately $213 -jt]

    9) Pat mentioned that he has been trying to get one of the local TV stations interested in coming to a launch. We discussed how this could be positive or negative coverage. It was suggested that the press isn't always fair and even handed. We could lessen the potential for disaster by providing the press with a press kit, and by making sure that there is an official spokesman.

    The treasurer reminded all present that 2002 dues are due.

    A motion to adjourn was made by George and seconded (sorry, didn't catch who). Meeting adjourned.


    The treasury stood at $407.02 at the start of the meeting.
    Spending authorized:
    $70 water extinguisher (authorized last meeting but not yet spent)
    $10 for local meet registration fees
    $60 for prizes
    $36 for contest ribbons
    $40 for section charter renewal and site insurance
    $20 for high power pads

    The treasurer paid out the following:
    $43.50 for PA and away pad updates
    $15.50 for fire extinguisher recharging
    $10 for local meet registration
    $20 for high power pads

    During the meeting one family and two individuals paid 2002 dues.

    1) Steve Adler will look for a water based extinguisher.

    2) Range setup time for all launches will be 11:00AM with the flying starting as soon as the range is ready, except for the Rocketoberfest meet in which Saturday set up time will be 9:00AM and the Sunday time will be 10:00AM.

    3) The June launch date will be the second Saturday of June, or June 8.

    4) We voted to move the June and August launches from Shawnee Mission Park and the Case Farm, respectively, to the Tickwood launch site (subject to approval by the site owner). To add an additional launch for one of the three days on the weekend following Thanksgiving also at the Tickwood field. And finally, to add a fourth HPR launch sometime in the Spring at the Reading field. A fifth HPR launch may be possible depending on fields.

    5) We voted to renew our section charter and purchase site insurance for the Case Farm.

    6) We discussed displaying rockets at the library this year. The head librarian is checking what dates the cases will be available for, and if it isn't too late in the season we will display rockets and photos.

    7) We voted to register the two local meets with the NAR for $5 each, and authorized $60 for prizes. We also set the competition fee to $7 per flier which includes launch fees and provided that the money collected be used to fund this activity, including special range equipment and prizes.

    8) We authorized spending $20 from the general fund to fill out the required $200 for HPR pads. The HPR pad fund contained $180. This fund was turned over to Nick and Jerome to make the purchase.

    9) Pat is attempting to get local TV new stations interested in coming to one of the sport launches.

    These minutes are written from memory and notes. Please feel free to point out any inaccuracies, updates, or changes. Please be kind as my memory isn't what it once was!

    Tim Burger

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    Last updated: January 24, 2002