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KCAR Meeting Minutes November 17, 2001


  • Dan Kirk, President
  • Jerome Tonneson, Vice President
  • Tim Burger, Secretary/Treasurer
  • Bob Wingate, Sr. Advisor
  • John Skelton
  • Nick Stich
  • Theo Asir
  • George Scheil
  • Bill Hensley
  • Jeff Bonovich

    Because some of the members were not yet present, and we wanted for everyone possible to have a part, Dan gave a presentation on using Econocoat heat shrink covering on model rockets.

    The meeting was called to order.

    The treasurer gave a report on the current state of the treasury, and the current state of the HPR equipment fund.

    The previous balance was $372.31, we have added $12 for 2001 for a club member, $45 from the October launch fees, and $23 from the November launch fees, while spending $28.64 on a fire extinguisher for the range, and $66.65 for a FRS radio that will integrate with our PA system.

    During the meeting, club dues were paid by one family, the HPR launch fee inadvertently placed in the general fund was moved to the HPR pad fund, and a member added a donation to the HPR fund. At the end of the meeting the balance of the treasury is $374.02; and the HPR fund stands at $171.00.

    The September meeting minutes were read by the Secretary/Treasurer.

    An election was held to select officers for the 2002 year.


    President: Nick Stich was nominated for President by Dan Kirk after Dan indicated that obligations to training and family will make him unavailable to serve as president next year. Theo Asir seconded that motion. Bob Wingate made a comment about the requirements of the position and on organizational skills being an asset and nominated George Scheil for the position of president. Both candidates accepted the nomination.

    Vice President: Theo Asir was nominated for Vice President by Jerome Tonneson. Nick Stich seconded the nomination. Theo issued the concern that his job will take him out of town a lot for the next year, and that he may be unable to participate in launches and meetings. Dan Kirk nominated Jerome Tonneson for Vice President, and was seconded by Bob Wingate. Both candidates accepted.

    Senior Advisor: Dan asked Bob what the position of Senior Advisor entails. Bob answered that the position is largely a liaison with the NAR headquarters, that the position is a member of the board, and is responsible for answering questions and giving direction. Nick added that the NAR requires this person be at least 18 years of age, and that it was originally intended by the founders G. Harry Stine and Orville Carlisle to ensure that an adult was a part of the club because at that time many clubs members were mostly minors. Bill Hensley nominated Bob Wingate for another year and Jerome Tonneson seconded. Nick Stich nominated Dan Kirk. Bill Hensley seconded. Both nominees accepted.

    Secretary Treasurer: Nick Stich nominated Tim Burger for Secretary Treasurer with some very kind words and thanks for standing in mid-year this year. The nomination was seconded by everyone simultaneously. The nominee accepted.

    Member At Large: A brief discussion was started about the charter requirement for a Member at Large. Nick Stich nominated Bill Hensley for this position. John Skelton seconded the nomination. Bill accepted.

    The President called for any further nominations and after a brief moment of silence, George Scheil moved that nominations be closed. It was seconded by Bill Hensley and the motion carried.

    Ballets were passed out and while voting and tallying was done Theo gave a brief demonstration of the lighting system made available by Night Launch (.com) The colors are very vibrant.

    The result of the election follows:

    Nine ballets were cast.

    For President - Nick Stich received seven votes, George Scheil received one vote, and one abstaining vote was cast.

    For Vice President - Theo Asir received five votes, Jerome received four votes.

    For Sr. Advisor - Dan Kirk received five votes and Bob Wingate received four votes.

    For Secretary/Treasurer - Tim Burger received eight votes, with one abstaining.

    For Member at Large - Bill Hensley received eight votes, with one abstaining.

    The votes were read, and a round of applause was heard for the winners, and also a round of applause for the those finishing a term of office.


    1) Fee Structures: Nick Stich brought forth the suggestion that our launch fee structure may discourage participation in the club. He passed out a spreadsheet (see attached) that outlined the logic. Essentially, he outlined that any given member will need to come to all but one of the launches to get ahead of the game. Fliers that only come to the one or two launches a year, or only fly for an hour or two at any launch are better off not joining and in doing so save money. Also, the current system does not encourage participation on the duty roster. He went on to suggest that a fee structure that allows members of the club to adjust their participation level based on what they have time and money for would encourage more fliers that come to launches and pay the fee to join and be a part of the club. He then offered a fee schedule that charges $5 for non-members, $3 for members, $2 for members who serve two or more hours at the range head, and $1 for members who serve two or more hours at the range head and assist in putting up or tearing down the range on launch day. Bob agreed with the premise, but took issue with charging non-members $5 and with suddenly upping the fee. Nick reminded the club that we voted to do that for the next calendar year anyway, and what he is proposing is not out of line with that. George added that some fliers are having a hard time coming up with the $3 we currently charge and will think twice before spending money to fly with us rather than going out on their own. Bob commented that the $5 fee does hit that psychological "step." Nick justified the higher cost by outlining the benefits a flier has when flying with us: equipment set up, insurance, a waiver (on most flights), and good company. We all agreed that this is true. Nick went on to say that someone who's having a problem with $5 should not be prevented from flying, especially if they were young and added that this is a guideline. No one could remember anyone ever being turned away from a launch due to lack of fees. Nick said that what he'd like is for everyone to be a member and be involved. He went on to say that he felt that this would encourage activity, draw members, and allow for more and better equipment. Bob mentioned that he'd like to see the club purchase a tower launcher for competition launches. This was discussed briefly with a suggestion that another special fund being started, and that the club could conceivably add to it from the treasury. Theo suggested that a discount of one or two dollars might be offered to non-members who serve as LCO/RSO. This may or may not be a good idea, since we would not know the individual, nor would we be certain that said individual knows and understands safety. This was tabled. John asked about range duty times with regard to discounts for doing duties since we've had recent discussions about shorter launch days. No changes of launch times have been formally discussed. A comment was made about varying launch times causing folks to arrive later and later because they can't remember when the launch actually starts. Bob suggests that a first time non-member fee of $3 would be a good idea and he would have no objection to adopting Nick's proposed schedule. Nick agreed that this was a great idea. Dan asked for motions.

    Bob moved that we adopt the following fee schedule:
    First time non-member $3
    Non-members $5
    Members $3
    Members serving two hours of range duty $2
    Members serving two hours of range duty and set up or tear down of the range $1

    The motion was seconded (sorry didn't catch who.)

    Discussion: John asked about families - answer is that one fee fits all.

    The club voted and it carried unanimously.

    2) Electronic Meetings: We discussed using the Yahoo e-groups forum to carry out club business and voting. (Note that a discussion of this topic has already been held on the KCAR E-mail group hosted by Yahoo.) Nick began this topic by pointing out that some of the members of the club, for whatever reason, are often unable to attend the meetings and launches. These same members, however, are frequent and active participants on the Yahoo hosted discussion group. Nick feels that these members are disenfranchised from the club because they are not able to physically attend. He went on to state that the two persons that spring to mind are Larry Zeilmann and Emmanuel Camburako, and that Emmanuel has stated via e-mail that he's disappointed that he hasn't had an opportunity to have a voice in club business. Nick pointed out that all of the members present at today's meeting also have a Yahoo group presence. This is a strong argument. Nick suggests that we may be able to fix this and proposed that we conduct an on-line meeting, that lasts one week. To ally fears already expressed by other club members, he proposed that the on-line meetings only happen in months that no physical meeting is scheduled, and that it be limited to club functions and business that do not require spending the club's treasury. Bob expressed misgivings about voting for officers and such in non-face to face situations. This feeling was also expressed by Tim and pointed out that someone who is familiar with computers could easily rig an election. Bob suggested that we might be able to find a way to allow proxy votes. Tim pointed out that doing that would require that the nominations would then need to be made two months in advance because of the meting schedule. Jerome offered a moratorium on elections via proxy e-mail for at least a year and Bob suggested adding fee structure changes to the moratorium. Nick stated that he has no problem with this so long as it doesn't include special events such as special high power launches. Nick also argues that there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to conduct normal club business over electronic means. The charter allows the board to direct funds be used after certain provisions are met, and e-mail may be used to meet those provisions. Dan stated that he sees three issues: 1) Elections, 2) dues/fees, and 3) general business. Bob added 4) quick response on spending when a limited opportunity arises. Nick read the pertinent section of the charter and suggested that the written notice could be done via e-mail. We all agree that small steps should be taken here. Nick pointed out that the by-laws must be approved by the NAR before they can be changed. George states that the board can meet in any way - in person, a conference call, and by e-mail.

    Nick motioned that we amend the by-laws to allow electronic meetings in even numbered months of the year to be held starting at midnight of the second Saturday of the month for one full week. No elections will take place. No fee structures will be changed. The Board of Directors will approve all spending as outlined in the club charter. This motion was seconded by Theo Asir.

    Discussion: as already stated in-person meetings are conducted in odd numbered months.

    The motion carried unanimously.

    3) Equipment updates - Fire Extinguishers. The fire extinguisher that Ralph has lent to the club has been used again and needs recharged. Jerome indicated that he has it currently in anticipation of having it recharged. Nick suggested that since it is still "in the green" and it costs the same to fill them regardless of the existing charge that we use it to demonstrate extinguisher use before we have it refilled. [We planned to do this at the November HPR launch, but due to the weather the launch was cancelled. --jt] Jerome motioned to spend up to $20 to have it recharged. Nick seconded the motion.

    The motion carried unanimously.

    3A) Equipment updates - Fire Extinguishers. During the previous meeting we approved the purchase of two new extinguishers for the range costing not more than $50. We also approved money for new tarps and an address book that have not been purchased. One chemical type extinguisher has been purchase. It has been suggested that we purchase a water-based extinguisher that can be refilled with tap water and charged with a common air compressor. Nick has investigated these and has found one that will cost about $60 and weighs about 40#. We discussed this and common pressurized garden sprayers. Tim motioned to return the unused money previously allocated to the treasury, and to purchase a water-based extinguisher spending up to $70 instead. Seconded by Theo.

    The motion carried unanimously.

    4A) Equipment - High Power Pads: Some clarification of the equipment that was used at the recent HPR launch was made: the largest pad available was a Yellow Jacket provided by Nick, the smaller one next to it that looked the same is the Wasp pad (also provided by Nick). This same Wasp pad has been used at previous sport launches as well. Dan pointed out that the Wasp pad, when equipped with a rail, seem to be sufficient for everything most of the club members can throw at it with the exception of the Level 2 members. Jerome motioned that we purchase one of these pads as soon as they are available by voting now to allocate the money so we don't miss out when Jim Ball has another batch ready to sell. Tim suggested that we hold out for two pads, since the meeting started we have had a donation or two and are now at $171, only $29 away from a second one. Tim asked how the rails are attached and how much it would cost to rig the ones that have been donated by Theo and Nick to the new Wasps. We have two four-foot and one six-foot long rail. The answer was that a metal bracket that fits the rail can be purchased at the local hardware store. It is then secured to the pad with a metal pin. The parts for the whole assembly can be purchased for a few dollars. Theo had a four-foot section of rail with him and showed us the where it would attach. Nick added that it's best to mount the rail with it butted firmly against the pad's bracket and blast deflector to eliminate as much of the potential wobble as possible. Nick also suggested that we need to make some changes or upgrades to the controller too. He offered to let the club use his radio remote controller for the time being. At this point Jerome retracted his previous motion to purchase a single pad. Nick made a motion that we purchase two pads as soon as Jim Ball has some ready and we have enough money in the kitty to do so. This was seconded by Bill. A discussion ensued - Nick comments that these are for all club uses and suggests that the new pads be numbers four and six at the regular launches. Small rockets can be launched from them as well as large ones. The motion carried with all members voting aye except George who abstains.

    4B) Equipment - High Power Away Cell Controller Modifications: Nick motioned that we purchase up to $50 worth of parts for upgrading the current controller to allow "away" pads. We discussed the need for this earlier. Theo seconded the motion. There was no further discussion. The motion carried with all members voting aye except George who abstained. [Note: This device can also be used at our regular sport launches for lighting clusters. -jt]

    5) Equipment - Trailer: Isobel Ross (Philip Zuniga's mom) contacted Nick about Philip's scout troop getting a bigger trailer and having a small one that might be available. She was going to check with the scout troop and find out its status. Bob and Nick went over the reasons for needing a trailer - the amount of equipment we have accumulated and are about to acquire. How convenient it would be when setting up or putting away the range equipment. How nice it would make moving the range equipment to the new and various sites that we seem to be working out. The current method is a burden on members (particularly Jerome) and a trailer would help with that. The hope that a trailer with a place for everything may make it easier to keep track of things - the current problem with a missing re-bar was tendered as an example. Nick read off some statistics of the launches for the past year - the record number of attendees and flights. George pointed out that we've had tremendous weather this year and that might account for some of the records. Tim cautioned that we need to be careful about tags, taxes, and other legal items. We discussed where a trailer might be kept - the Case Farm, in Jerome's garage, or the Burger homestead. Jerome pointed out that Kansas has a light tag and fee structure if the trailer were kept in Kansas on the correct dates for the correct amount of time. Nick offered to purchase the scout trailer or another if one were found that was what we need and in a price range that we could afford. He would then offer it to the club by allowing the club to buy it from him over time. Since we were running short of time this issue was tabled for the time being.


    6) Competitions for 2002 - Bob started the discussion by offering some ideas for contest events for next year. We all agreed to sponsoring two events next year, but haven't chosen the events nor dates. Bob would like to see the club purchase a tower launcher for the competition events. Jerome suggested that a tower launcher might encourage more competitors from other clubs to attend. Bob would also like to change the date of the Rocketoberfest meet. He stated that the Wichita club members want to come to our Fall meet, but that our date consistently conflicts with their schedule. He suggested that a committee be created to search out a better date that will allow the Wichita, Arkansas, and St. Louis club members to come and be a part of our meet. Nick suggested that the competition launch fees be used to fund a new tower pad much like we've been doing with the HPR fees. Bob stated that he would also like to offer second place prizes. We discussed competition fees. Tim thinks that most competitors have been paying the $7 to compete, and an additional $1 or $3 launch fee. He remarked that he knew Stew McNabb did since he wrote a check, and that's what he did too. Bob thought that the $7 included the launch fee. Jerome suggested that the general fund could assist with this sort of thing. Bob asks that we hold off choosing a date for the Fall meet for now, but go ahead and choose a date for the Spring meet now. We considered the events that we'd like to fly. Jerome suggested that an e-group poll be used. Dan suggested we poll for popular events. Nick suggests a proposal of groups of events to extract a popular event consensus. Bob wants us to look at his offerings as an opening set of ideas to get the ball rolling and asks for suggestions and ideas. Jerome pointed out that there is still a prize kit left over from the last event. George amended that to two prizes. Bob confirms two prizes are waiting for winners of the Spring event.

    This item will be carried to the e-group to pick contest events.

    7) Rocket of the month: Jerome suggests that we scrap the rocket of the month and states that last year few if any rockets were brought for the theme, and that the poll taken on e-groups indicates a lack of interest. George seconded.

    Motion carried.

    8) Theme of the month: Selection of themes of the month will be carried out on the e-group.

    9) 2002 Launch dates: Jerome suggests that the Spring contest should be conducted at the Case Farm. The farm will be unavailable during certain months next year for making hay as it was this past year. That would make the Case Farm unavailable during May and June. So it looks like April will be the best time for the Spring meet. KOSMO holds their Spring event in June and we do not wish to conflict with their meet so we decided to hold off setting a date for June until we know when KRAMO will be. We discussed potential alternative sites for the Polar Bear launches but decided to continue to have them at the New Mark Middle School. May and June launches will be held at Shawnee Mission Park or possibly at the Tickwood Ranch. Launches are on the second Saturday of the month except for the June and October launches.

    So it shapes up like this:
    Date Location
    January 12 New Mark Middle School
    February 9 New Mark Middle School
    March 9 Case Farm
    April 13 Case Farm (Spring meet)
    May 11 Shawnee Mission Park or Tickwood Ranch
    June TBD Shawnee Mission Park or Tickwood Ranch
    July 13 Case Farm
    August 10 Case Farm
    September 14 Case Farm
    October TBD Case Farm
    November 9 Case Farm
    December No launch this month

    10) Library Display: Dan is thinking of reserving one of the library display cases for one of the Winter months and wants to know who can display rockets then. Dan, Theo, George, Bill, and Tim are all willing. Dan wanted to know if a Saturn V could be displayed; Bill said his could be, but it isn't the best for close up inspection. Tim offered his Saturn V. It will have to lay horizontal to fit. Dan will look into reserving the case for January or February.

    11) Reservation of the Meeting Room: Nick asked Dan how to go about reserving the meeting room. Dan offered to introduce him to the librarian after the meeting.

    A motion to adjourn was made. It was seconded.

    Treasury: $374.02 (Note: fees and dues paid during meeting)
    HPR fund: $171.00 (Note: contributions were made during the meeting)

    New officers for 2002:
    President: Nick Stich
    Vice President: Theo Asir
    Sr. Advisor: Dan Kirk
    Secretary/Treasurer: Tim Burger
    Member At Large: Bill Hensley

    Motions Carried:

    1) New launch fee schedule - non-members (first time) $3; non-members $5; members $3; members who serve 2 hours of launch duties $2; and members who perform two hours of launch duty and set up or tear down the range $1.

    2) An on-line meeting will now be held on even months (physical meetings are held in odd numbered months) starting at midnight on the second Saturday of the month for one full week. The charter must be observed when spending treasury funds.

    3) The club voted to purchase a water based fire extinguisher for up to $70; returning unused money previously allocated for a standard chemical one (we voted to buy two at the last meeting, one was purchased.)

    4) The club voted to recharge Ralph's extinguisher again; we also voted to purchase a new water based extinguisher.

    5) Equipment Trailer was discussed, no motions were made.

    6) 2002 Contest events were discussed and it was decided to finish the discussion and vote on events using Yahoo groups.

    7) We voted to not have a rocket of the month next year.

    8) We voted to discuss and choose launch themes over Yahoo.

    9) We decided on launch dates and locations for regular launches next year except for the June launch and the October meet.

    10) We decided to reserve a display case at the library for January or February and to display rockets and club information.

    11) Nick and Dan discussed reserving the meeting room.

    Approved last month but not yet purchased, an address book $10
    Approved last month but not yet purchased, tarps $60
    Approved recharging Ralph's fire extinguisher $20
    Approved purchasing a water based fire extinguisher $70
    Approved spending to add away cell capacity $50
    Total of $210 from the general fund

    Approved spending on two Wasp pads $200 from HPR fund.

    These minutes are written from memory and notes. Please feel free to e-mail us to point out any inaccuracies, updates, or changes. Please be kind as my memory isn't what it once was! And please forgive me for misspelling names; I can't even remember my own, most days.

    Tim Burger

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    Last updated: January 18, 2002