i understand what you are saying, owen (that's you, right?), about God
choosing us and He'll pick who He wants to be with Him.
what i struggle with is this: what if my family is not chosen?
or my 8
year old nephew? what about babies who die? what about
those who have
never heard? yes, they're still sinners, needing Jesus Christ
to save
them. but why would God create "disposable people"?
<3 rosie
life is a journey, not a destination.
==========================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
> From: imgalileo@webtv.net (rosie)
>
> i understand what you are saying, owen (that's
you, right?), about God
> choosing us and He'll pick who He wants to
be with Him.
>
> what i struggle with is this: what if
my family is not chosen? or my 8
> year old nephew? what about babies who
die? what about those who have
> never heard? yes, they're still sinners,
needing Jesus Christ to save
> them. but why would God create "disposable
people"?
I could immediately react with the verse "The wicked are a ransom for
the righteous" and "I give peoples in exchange for you"
But I think there are going to be more people in heaven than we expect.
I may have posted this recently, but here's an encore::: ---...
I dreamt death came the other night
and heaven's door swung wide.
An angel with a halo bright
ushered me inside.
And there, to my astonishment
stood folk I judged and labeled;
as quite unfit, of little worth, and spiritually disabled.
Indignant words rose to my lips
but never were set free.
For every face showed stunned surprise.
Not one - expected me...
===============================================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
> > From: imgalileo@webtv.net (rosie)
> >
> > i understand what you are saying, owen (that's
you, right?), about God
> > choosing us and He'll pick who He wants to
be with Him.
> >
> > what i struggle with is this: what
if my family is not chosen? or my 8
> > year old nephew? what about babies
who die? what about those who have
> > never heard? yes, they're still sinners,
needing Jesus Christ to save
> > them. but why would God create "disposable
people"?
This is one of the reasons I have such a big problem with Christianity
as a
religion. There's this built-in despair -- like the one above
-- and just how
is that supposed to be comforting and consoling? Yeah, I know you're
supposed
"to have faith", but that's like saying you gotta have faith that the
gunman
won't off one or all of the members of your family.
Can't you see that this type of exclusivity -- one that you can never
be sure of
and is beyond your control -- undermines self-esteem and leaves you
in a
continual state of despair and fear, one that you must spend considerable
efforts fighting off or hiding from.
This one factor alone took me 4 years postpartum COBU to completely
unravel and
undo. I went around in great fear that "God has it out for me" until
I was
RATIONALLY able to "prove" to myself that God does not exist. I tell
you, on
that day I did that a great burden of guilt and despair lifted from
my shoulders
-- just like it did when I initially "got saved!"
I understand the powerful grip that Christianity has on you. I would
beseech you
all to choose a more gentler religion to believe in, at the very least.
If I
seem critical of Christianity, now you know why. I am attacking the
religion,
not you. I think points like this you should really spend a lot of
time thinking
about, and see if it makes sense that "an all loving god" may save
you but not
your wife or kids.
Of course, if you wish to live with that despair, you are certainly
welcome to
do so. I barely escaped from it myself, and it is my wish to see all
of you
escape from the despair as well. Not necessarily to become atheists,
but to find
a gentler, more consoling mode of existence. There are thousands of
religions
out there. Christianity is not the end-all and be-all religion that
you were
sold on.
Sometimes you will experience this "joy of Jesus", until you start entertaining
the Christian God's exclusivity clause -- the fine print, as it were
-- that is
br>part of the deal. How can you feel joy when you can't even be sure
if your love
ones will be along for the ride?
-Fred
========================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>
Freddy Bear,
Christianity is the one religion that not only recognizes the despair that is an integral part of the human existence but offers a quick (relatively speaking) and victorious end to it (unlike Buddhism, for instance, which has the concept of dukka but without the salvation). It is a religion full of paradoxes, most of which are wrapped up in the person of Jesus Himself. Think about it, and you will see the yingyang throughout it all -- flesh/spirit sin/forgiveness lost/salvation grace/justice death/resurrection etc. -- that is, unless you are one of those very rigid persons like Stewart Traill for whom everything in life has to be dogmatically black or white. The comfort and consolation is found in facing head on the cause of the despair and not pretending to have answers within our frail selves. It is the most gentle of religions when practiced as the Savior taught it -- surely you remember Jesus's Sermon on the Mount.
A good book, despite its other failings, on the paradoxes of Jesus, is Bruce Barton's _The Man Nobody Knows: A Discovery of the Real Jesus_ (c. 1911).
---
Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
===============================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
Strawman,
=====================================
From: HMWSAILING@aol.com
Hi Owen, That person's attitude in the poem reminds me of Jonah's attitude
towards
the people of Nineveh.
Herm Weiss
=======================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>
On Fri, 02 Jul 1999 08:50:46 Freddy
Bear wrote:
>From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
>John, you totally blew past my point.
Hey Fred! That was the idea, mon, read your point; make one of my own. But did you *think* about it like I suggested, or only react to it? You control despair? I must get out the dictionary according to Fred, 'cause my Noah's and the OED don't allow control of despair, my definition.
'Tis indeed a strawman to suggest that Lot would be joyous that his wife was turned into a pillar of salt just for being human, when it's not suggested in the story nor by common sense. God's rejection of anyone is nothing to be joyous about, and I for one have never met nor heard of a Christian who did rejoice in the fact that someone was lost.
I think you ought to pray to Jesus, Fred. He loves you and is dying to help you. Really. He will reveal Himself to you if you let Him.
--J.
---
Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
=============================================
From: "Owen D Camp" <DOCOC@prodigy.net>
From: Owen
Dear Fred
You expressed yourself well, and
maybe I'll get around to answering
your points perfectly.
And by my Lord I'll get there
Owen Camp
Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
==========================================
Fred wrote:
Could Lot be joyous that his wife was turned into a pillar of salt just
for being human?
Apparently so, because then it gave him free rein to molest his young
daughters - oh, wait, I forgot, the story he told is that THEY got him
drunk and took advantage of him when he didn't know what he was doing.
Twice, though modern medicine says if you're too drunk to know what you're
doing, you're too drunk to 'do it.'
Yep, if I was a twelve/thirteen year old virgin, that's what I'd do
- not ask my father to find me a husband, but crawl into bed with the old
pig, er, stud. Do any of you who are parents and have or had daughters
this age really believe the story Lot told?
--
- Beverly
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Think wrongly, if you please, but in all cases
think for yourself.
Doris Lessing
British writer
================================================
From: BigMac55@ix.netcom.com
On 07/02/99 17:28:12 you wrote:
>
>
>
>Fred wrote:
>
>> Could Lot be joyous that his wife was
turned into a pillar of salt just for being human?
>
>Apparently so, because then it gave him
free rein to molest his young daughters - oh, wait, I
forgot, the story he told is that THEY got
him drunk and took advantage of him when he didn't
know what he was doing. Twice, though
modern medicine says if you'
>re too drunk to know what you're doing,
you're too drunk to 'do it.'
>
>Yep, if I was a twelve/thirteen year old
virgin, that's what I'd do - not ask my father to find
me a husband, but crawl into bed with the
old pig, er, stud. Do any of you who are parents and
have or had daughters this age really believe
the story Lot told?
OK you guys,
We've got a couple of problems here.
1.) Wife of Lot
Was not turned to a pillar of salt for being human. She wanted the
evil of that place and the comfort it represented to her.
2.) Now Bev, how do you arrive at these conclusions? These were not
12 or
13 year old girls. They had been engaged to be married before they
fled Sodom and Gommorah, but their husbands to be refused to leave.
Then, they moved to Zoar, and then finally to a cave in the mountains.
By this time Lot was Quite old indicating that a lot (excuse the pun)
of time had gone by. (Gen 19) I have two daughters in the age group
that you mention, by the way. Origen, writing in 248 ad., said,"Lot's
daughters intoxicated their father, so that they might become mothers
by him. However, let us soften down the repulsive features of the
history...." He goes on to say that the daughters thought that the
world
had been destroyed and that they were the only means left for the
survival of the human race. He concluded," Yet, truly,in sacred Scripture
is it nowhere found to distinctly approve or disapprove of this behavior."
As to your other point, I will not discuss specifics openly on this
but it is possible, especially for one who has drunk too much to awaken
in full "vigor" in a dreamlike encounter and have little remembrance.
I can understand wounded individuals confronting their hurt, but you've
got to
get it right.
Jesus, no matter what
Rick MacLean
==================================================
Beverly Diehl wrote:
Fred wrote:
Could Lot be joyous that his wife was turned
into a pillar of salt just for being human?
She was told not to look back and she did.
I just posted stuff about not judging
by appearances when it comes to Lot's life.
Apparently so, because then it gave him free
rein to molest his young daughters - oh, wait, I forgot, the story he told
is that THEY got him drunk and took advantage of him when he didn't know
what he was doing. Twice, though modern medicine says if you're too
drunk to know what you're doing, you're too drunk to 'do it.'
Yep, if I was a twelve/thirteen year old virgin,
that's what I'd do - not ask my father to find me a husband, but crawl
into bed with the old pig, er, stud. Do any of you who are parents
and have or had daughters this age really believe the story Lot told?
Continuing a line, and a name, is very important. And according
to the story they thought they
were the last ones on earth after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
which Lot tried to stop.
Matter of fact, this character is in the lineage of Jesus. Same
with with Bethseba whose name
was changed to Behtshua. Wayne had a good study on that.
>From 'daughter of an oath' to
'daughter of a promise' (that's what the two names mean - and they
refer to the same person
but at different times) Bethshua, who had previously committed
adultery with David, Bethshua
bore Solomon - also in Jesus' lineage. Talk about a colorful
past...
I suppose if you're too drunk to know what you're doing you can't "do
it".
But I bet you could be taken advantage of.
=========================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
As the father of two lovely, brilliant, beautiful, intelligent daughters,
I am
disgusted by Lot's story. Inebriation is no excuse. Besides, is this
not a
splendid example of how screwed up the morality in the bible really
is? I mean,
the man's wife was turned into a pillar of salt JUST FOR LOOKING BACK,
yet God
doesn't deem it necessary for turning Lot nor his daughters into carbonized
ash
for committing the same sins that he destroyed those cities for!
Yet, I'm berated for criticizing "God" for things like this. But there
you have
it. Blatant incest, yet not even a rumble. Can anyone tell me with
a straight
face that this is not barbaric? That God actually condones incest?
I seem to remember another passage where God strikes a man dead for
pulling out
too early and letting his semen hit the ground. Please explain to me
why these
"acts of God" are not barbaric.
Please explain! Please explain! Only Christians can explain! Illogical,
illogical, Norman please coordinate....<fizzle>
=====================================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
Tom Pierron wrote:
> Beverly Diehl wrote:
>
>> Apparently so, because then it gave him free
rein to molest his young
>> daughters - oh, wait, I forgot, the story
he told is that THEY got him drunk
>> and took advantage of him when he didn't know
what he was doing. Twice,
>> though modern medicine says if you're too
drunk to know what you're doing,
>> you're too drunk to 'do it.'
>> Yep, if I was a twelve/thirteen year old virgin,
that's what I'd do - not
>> ask my father to find me a husband, but crawl
into bed with the old pig, er,
>> stud. Do any of you who are parents
and have or had daughters this age
>> really believe the story Lot told?
>
> Continuing a line, and a name, is very important.
So the ends justifies the means, is that it? So it's OK if I "sin" as
long as I
can have a justifiable reason? Hmmm...
> And according to the story they thought
they
> were the last ones on earth after the destruction
of Sodom and Gomorrah which
> Lot tried to stop.
> Matter of fact, this character is in the lineage
of Jesus. Same with with
> Bethseba whose name
> was changed to Behtshua. Wayne had a
good study on that. >From 'daughter of
> an oath' to
> 'daughter of a promise' (that's what the two
names mean - and they refer to
> the same person
> but at different times) Bethshua, who
had previously committed adultery with
> David, Bethshua
> bore Solomon - also in Jesus' lineage.
Talk about a colorful past...
> I suppose if you're too drunk to know what
you're doing you can't "do it".
> But I bet you could be taken advantage of.
Not to the point of ejaculation. That takes a good bit of mental participation.
Disclaimer: the following is known as a JOKE, a JOKE, with smilies,
get it? :-)
:-) :-) Now that we got THAT out of the way...
So what have we learned today, boys and girls? Incest is OK by God,
but
Homosexuality is not OK. Now we know where those hillbillies gets their
whacked-out ideas. :-)
Oh sister! Com'un up to the haystack with me. We're gonna make God proud of us.
-9 months later-
Funny lookin' feller. Looks dummer than a sack of 'taters. One thing
I can't
figger. You his mama or his aunt?
<ducking>
-Fred
=======================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
> As the father of two lovely, brilliant, beautiful,
intelligent daughters, I am
> disgusted by Lot's story. Inebriation is no
excuse. Besides, is this not a
> splendid example of how screwed up the morality
in the bible really is?
You're reading in stuff that simply isn't there. There are other
examples
of rape and incest throughout the OT, but this isn't one of those cases.
> I mean,
> the man's wife was turned into a pillar of
salt JUST FOR LOOKING BACK, yet God
> doesn't deem it necessary for turning Lot nor
his daughters into carbonized ash
> for committing the same sins that he destroyed
those cities for!
That's what happens when we look back. Our life becomes worthless
and
rife with strife. And the actions of the people in the city were not
of
the same caliber. These women did not want to see the end of
the human race.
> I seem to remember another passage where God
strikes a man dead for pulling out
> too early and letting his semen hit the ground.
Please explain to me why these
> "acts of God" are not barbaric.
>
> Please explain! Please explain! Only Christians
can explain! Illogical,
> illogical, Norman please coordinate....<fizzle>
Can't explain that one, pardner. Sorry.
One my web site I put stuff about Lot - the first thing "Help for those..."
If you have the time - and I know how that is!
===================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
> >
> >> Do any of you who are parents and have or
had daughters this age
> >> really believe the story Lot told?
> >
> > Continuing a line, and a name, is very important.
>
> So the ends justifies the means, is that it?
So it's OK if I "sin" as long as I
> can have a justifiable reason? Hmmm...
That's apparently apparent; the women became parents.
Absolutely. Instead of asking Jesus if you can do something -
just do it, and then ask for forgiveness. (A "Christian" joke)
We reap what we sow.
> Funny lookin' feller. Looks dummer than a sack
of 'taters. One thing I can't
> figger. You his mama or his aunt?
>
> <ducking>
My niece was over this week. She asked me why I never married.
And then she said Jimmy told her one of my girlfriend's was suicidal.
And then Ilene proudly told me that she is suicidal. (She's about 15
now)
I told her, well we don't live in West Virginia. (You had to
be there)
BTW, they play their TV's and radios at half speed so they can
keep up with what's going on...
Y'all come back now, y'hear?!
====================================
From: Beverly Diehl <bevsfun@earthlink.net>
>
> OK you guys,
>
> We've got a couple of problems here.
>
> 1.) Wife of Lot
>
Was not turned to a pillar of salt for being human. She wanted the
>
evil of that place and the comfort it represented to her.
Your interpretation - that is NOT what that section of the Bible says.
Now while Lot had to be
physically dragged out of there by the hand by the two angels, his
wife (alas, not even important
enough to bear a name) only turned to look back to see what had become
of her home, family, friends,
etc. Maybe she had parents, brother, sisters, nephews, nieces.
Who wouldn't look back? So she
gets burned twice; once for being human, then again by those who say
she 'wanted evil and comfort'.
>
> 2.) Now Bev, how do you arrive at these conclusions?
These were not 12 or
>
13 year old girls. They had been engaged to be married before they
>
fled Sodom and Gommorah,
And the age that girls were married in those days? If they were
old enough to be married, they
would have been. Lot stated that they were virgins who had not
known man - earlier in the chapter
when offering them up for a gang-bang. Not what I consider the
act of a loving father. While I
agree that protecting one's guests is the right thing to do, I would
never do what Lot did - would
you, Rick? I might offer myself in their place; I might die defending
my children and my guests. I
would NEVER say to a raging mob, here, take my virgin daughters and
use them as you will. Are there
any parents on this list who consider THAT act of Lot to be 'righteous'?
> but their husbands to be refused to leave.
>
Then, they moved to Zoar, and then finally to a cave in the mountains.
Because for some reason Lot didn't like in in Zo'ar (that's how the
RSV renders the city). It says
he was afraid - though why he would be afraid, it doesn't say.
>
>
By this time Lot was Quite old indicating that a lot(excuse the pun) :-)
Cute!
>
of time had gone by.(Gen 19)
Assumption - perhaps correct, a lot of time had gone by - but perhaps
he was a geezer to start out
with.
> I have two daughters in the age group
>
that you mention, by the way.
I trust you are a LITTLE more protective of them than Lot.
> Origen, writing in 248 ad., said,"Lot's
>
daughters intoxicated their father, so that they might become mothers
>
by him. However, let us soften down the repulsive features of the
>
history...." He goes on to say that the daughters thought that the world
>
had been destroyed and that they were the only means left for the
>
survival of the human race.
They must have been pretty dumb, if they lived in Zo'ar for awhile after
they let Sodom, and didn't
realize at least some of the world was intact.
> He concluded," Yet, truly,in sacred Scripture
>
is it nowhere found to distinctly approve or disapprove of this behavior."
True. Pages and pages of draperies and cords and tassels for the
Ark of the Covenant, and nary a
line or two about how it's not nice for men to father offspring on
their own daughters. Or to turn
one's daughter over to a raging mob for a gang-bang. Does this
therefore mean God approves, or
simply that's He's indifferent, that this wasn't worth a brief sidebar
anywhere in the entire
Bible?
>
As to your other point, I will not discuss specifics openly on this
>
but it is possible, especially for one who has drunk too much to awaken
>
in full "vigor" in a dreamlike encounter and have little remembrance.
A loving father who is fully aware that there are, in fact, other men
alive in the world, would do
his best to find marriage partners for his daughters before the situation
came to a head, as it
were. And its like the police answering a call of 'domestic disturbance'
and only interviewing the
alleged perpetrator. Maybe that account is right, but I get very
suspicious of men who claim that
their women frequently walk into a lot of doors, or that their daughters/sisters
are showing 'a
seductive, Eve-like spirit,' and that everything is THEIR fault, those
evil women, not the
'righteous' man. Pul-lease!
> I can understand wounded individuals confronting
their hurt,but you've got to
> get it right.
It's hard for any of us to say, from this perspective, what the 'absolute
truth' is/was. But the
story of Lot is one he told himself, to his cousin Abraham. He
wasn't likely to say, oh, by the
way, a couple of years ago, I raped both my daughters. Most human
cultures do not approve of
incest, and Lot was surely aware of this. Nobody likes
to think of himself as the bad guy. And
maybe Lot even convinced himself that's the way it happened.
--
- Beverly
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Think wrongly, if you please, but in all cases
think for yourself.
Doris Lessing
British writer
================================================
From: "Owen D Camp" <DOCOC@prodigy.net>
From: Owen
Dear Bev
Abraham was Lot's
uncle NOT cousin. Lot with his wife moved into
Sodom when he moved away from Abe. So it is VERY unlikely that
she had kin
in Sodom. According to Josephus she kept looking back continuously.
NO I would not have offered
them my girls. (I'm grateful for
firearms.)
And by my Lord I'll get there
Owen Camp
Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
===============================================
NO I would not have offered them my girls. (I'm grateful for
firearms.) (from Owen)
Good Answer!! ; )
(from Carol)
==================================
From: "Owen D Camp" <DOCOC@prodigy.net>
From: Owen
Dear Fred
As explained by someone recently
scripture nowhere approves of what
Lot's daughters did. Lot wasn't fried because he was ignorant
(and he did
it with girls. The Sodomites refused Lot's daughters).
The other guy you referred
to is Onan son of Judah. Yeah it seems
harsh by our present debauched standards but .... not everything in
scripture is easy or obvious.
And by my Lord I'll get there
Owen Camp
Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
==============================================
Fred,
This is really crazy old friend. YOU find it depressing and so
you, in fact, conclude that yours is the only rational point of
view. Historically, there is much to confute that, The blood of
the martyrs bears witness to a joy unspeakable and most often
in the midst of the world's deepest despair from it's intellectual
answers gone awry.
I have tasted the despair of trying to provide my own answers and
the joy of salvation. That you have reached a different conclusion
seems obvious, but it seems intellectually dishonest for you to
project that conclusion, like some old witnessing trick, onto others.
Also, you seem a little too angry at God to support your non-belief
claims, even within the context you have presented them. You go on
about exclusiveness, but I suspect that you are mostly trying to
convince yourself. I don't find it that way, although I concede
that arguments can be made for or against anything.
I remain your friend and servant,
Jesus, no matter what!!!!!
Rick
By the way, if I were coming from a purely selfish POV, I
would pray that you never rekindled your relationship with
Jesus. You provide a platform for soul searching, par excellence.
BUT, I cannot do that having known the joy and peace of
His presence. So don't be angry, old friend, but I am praying
for you and your situation.
===========================================