Dear Fred and all - So what does "valid" mean in the Vorlon universe?
Just that you do/did "experience" something at sometime?
If I talk about
my subjective experience then I am ridiculed about having a "fantasy,"
while if you talk about your "valid" experience, which was YOUR
experience and therefore "valid" to you, I can't make the same
claim?
Sorry, that you don't "like" that it is God's way or the highway
in the
eternal sense - how can you call that salvation experience "valid"
if it
didn't last? I'm too Armenian to do the "once saved, always
saved"
thing... especially when we are talking about the Savior God, in
which
you've claimed to not believe, now. So, are you saying now that
you are
"saved?" It is your interpretation that I've "blatantly assumed"
anything about YOU personally. Does the shoe fit?
My salvation experience, (which yes, did include emotions as well
as
choice) continues to include an ongoing relationship to Jesus,
as
Savior. The question of my "sobriety," (while different than being
mocked
for being overly sober), does put me in the good company of Him
Who was
called a winebibber and a glutton... For someone whose "fantasy"
of a
hopeful future may include fictional Vorlons, you're doing quite
a bit of
stoning yourself, old boy. Thankfully any quagmire I should ever
step
into I will be resurrected from, because my valid Hope is not a
fantasy
at all, but in relationship to God I continue to receive His personal
proof to me subjectively, and just because you can't put it in
your
test-tube you are the one claiming it is "invalid." (And I do not
appreciate the insinuation that just because I enjoy "fantasy,"
as in
creative imagery in writing, that I've shown here, that I can't
tell the
difference).
As to "ramming one's ideologies down people's throats," Fred, are
you
saying that you assume that is what I am doing? Because that
glass
slipper ain't mine. You don't know my life off this List...
Your choice
of language seems to be very pointed with just a thinly veiled
anger,
when I was attempting to agree with you about trying to offer people
an
encouraging view of life, and to look for the good in all cultures
and
philosophies. I do not think it is a "saving" good, but I
am saying it
is possible to agree with those who are of a different world view
on
various issues. To realize that humans (& Vorlons?) do have
common
experiences of happiness, etc. It is going to happen that
your idea of
"True Hope" and mine are going to be vastly different. I
have openly
claimed that I wish for all to become Christians, but for you to
say I
"ram" that, you may need to check your own assumptions. Nancy
C.
================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
> Yes it is. Now if we can get most Christians
off this "my way or the highway"
> way of thinking, true Hope can then start
to spread to all. Christian and
> non-Christian alike.
Yes, arrogance is wrong and just serves to turn people off.
If people would be shown the real Jesus they would flock around
him
like they did when he was here physically.
> I know this is tough for most of you to
chew on. We all want to believe in our
> fairy god mothers. We all wish Santa Claus
was real. We all want our "sky daddy"
> to swoop down and protect us from the dangers
of living on this planet. To save
> us in spite of ourselves. But fantasies
are like strong drink -- you take leave
> of your senses, and you become unable to
do the REAL WORK of creating REAL HOPE
> that you would otherwise be able to do
if you were sober.
During the 1980's I wanted to, and did forget Jesus, cast off all
restraint, and did
pretty much
whatever I wanted. It's funny while in, I was tempted by
a lot of things that I
never did when
I left. I even got a good job and things really did go pretty
well.
But my "sky daddy" has done many things in my life I cannot deny.
He did them
personally
for me. He's not a sugar daddy, and he doesn't ask "How high?"
if I would tell him
to jump.
But there are things in my life that He has done. There's
a lot more things I wish
would be
done, but I'll settle for what he thinks is what I need.
(Do I have much of a
choice?) But such
is the life of a child God. He disciplines him whom he loves
as a father chastises
the son in
whom he delights.
> I've said enough. I await more stoning...
I got my sling. Let me find some nice round, smooth, stones...
===============================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
James D Coogan wrote:
> From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
>
> Dear Fred and all - So what does "valid"
mean in the Vorlon universe?
> Just that you do/did "experience" something
at sometime? If I talk about
> my subjective experience then I am ridiculed
about having a "fantasy,"
> while if you talk about your "valid" experience,
which was YOUR
> experience and therefore "valid" to you,
I can't make the same claim?
> Sorry, that you don't "like" that it is
God's way or the highway in the
> eternal sense - how can you call that salvation
experience "valid" if it
> didn't last? I'm too Armenian to
do the "once saved, always saved"
> thing... especially when we are talking
about the Savior God, in which
> you've claimed to not believe, now. So,
are you saying now that you are
> "saved?" It is your interpretation
that I've "blatantly assumed"
> anything about YOU personally. Does
the shoe fit?
Ah, James, you missed my point. I consider what happened to me 19
years ago on
the corner of 13th and Market to be a delusion, but it certainly
FELT real at
the time! The point I trying to point out is the dangerous slop
of declaring one
person's "salvation" valid and another's not.
> My salvation experience, (which yes, did
include emotions as well as
> choice) continues to include an ongoing
relationship to Jesus, as
> Savior. The question of my "sobriety,"
(while different than being mocked
> for being overly sober), does put me in
the good company of Him Who was
> called a winebibber and a glutton... For
someone whose "fantasy" of a
> hopeful future may include fictional Vorlons,
you're doing quite a bit of
> stoning yourself, old boy.
The Vorlon bit is a joke, of course! You guy really DON'T have a
sense of humor,
now do you? If you took the vorlon thing seriously, I've got to
wonder about
what you're smoking. I want some! :-)
> Thankfully any quagmire I should ever step
> into I will be resurrected from, because
my valid Hope is not a fantasy
> at all, but in relationship to God I continue
to receive His personal
> proof to me subjectively, and just because
you can't put it in your
> test-tube you are the one claiming it is
"invalid." (And I do not
> appreciate the insinuation that just because
I enjoy "fantasy," as in
> creative imagery in writing, that I've
shown here, that I can't tell the
> difference).
The problem with those who cling so strongly to their fantasy is
that they
become convinced it's not a fantasy at all. That is the biggest
problem I have
with the human brain's belief mechanism: there is no inherent validation
of
those beliefs. Invalidated beliefs are very dangerous, and I tend
to avoid them
like the plague.
> As to "ramming one's ideologies down people's
throats," Fred, are you
> saying that you assume that is what I am
doing? Because that glass
> slipper ain't mine. You don't know my life
off this List...
You're right. I don't.
> Your choice
> of language seems to be very pointed with
just a thinly veiled anger,
> when I was attempting to agree with you
about trying to offer people an
> encouraging view of life, and to look for
the good in all cultures and
> philosophies. I do not think it is
a "saving" good, but I am saying it
> is possible to agree with those who are
of a different world view on
> various issues.
I agree with you here.
> To realize that humans (& Vorlons?)
do have common
> experiences of happiness, etc. It
is going to happen that your idea of
> "True Hope" and mine are going to be vastly
different.
Well, you're a better person than I if you can truly believe what
I think you
mean by "True Hope". I'm a simple man; I want to help people in
the here and
now; not try to sell them something so fantastic it stretches credulity.
You
are right about one thing: the veil of anger. I was sold this same
"Fantastic
Hope" bill of goods even before COBU, yet no one had a shred of
evidence to back
it up. I was told to "take it on faith". I went that route and
got burned, big
time.
Meanwhile, while all these Christians are so busy pursuing their
"Great Blessed
Hope", people are suffering and dying all around the world. Our
own government,
here in the US, is dishing out its share of despair in the form
of The War on
Drug Users and Child Snatching.
Now, in my view, these people are the ones who need help and hope
with their
immediate situation. They are not interested in hearing grandiose
talk about
living forever and all that. They are interested in where the next
meal is
coming from, or whether or not they can get their wrongfully-snactched
kids back
from the social-workers.
You see, to them, True Hope is getting that next bite of food
to eat or getting
their children back from the jaws of the government. All else is
BS to them.
> I have openly
> claimed that I wish for all to become Christians,
but for you to say I
> "ram" that, you may need to check your
own assumptions. Nancy C.
Yes, I get a little heavy-handed some of the time. But it is just
my impression
that sometimes some Christians seem to have their heads in the
clouds when there
is real work to be done. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my perception.
-Fred
=============================================
From: "Owen D Camp" <DOCOC@prodigy.net>
From: Owen
Dear All
Fred's letter deserves a response!
BUT it's worth doing right. So
I'll get back to you in a few days.
===============================================
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
Fred, I, James have never until this moment written anything to
you and
you say that I am a drunkard { not sober} , smoking something and
have no
sense of humor. My, how insightful and tolerant of you.
James
Coogan
=========================================================================
From: JohnxCOBU@aol.com
Yo Fred,
You
got everybody and his uncle arguing with you again????
This is like
Jerry Springer or something. Everyone bickering. jb
====================================================================================
It wasn't supposed to be that way. I was having a debate with Herman.
He forced
me to bring out the main artillery, and I supposed it caused some
"collateral
damage" along the way...
At least Springer only had one or two at his throat at any given
time. He would
probably envy me!
-Fred
===================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
James D Coogan wrote:
> From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
>
> Fred, I, James have never until this moment
written anything to you and
> you say that I am a drunkard { not sober}
, smoking something and have no
> sense of humor. My, how insightful
and tolerant of you.
James
> Coogan
>
Ever hear of the word METAPHOR?
-Fred
=========================================
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
Fred this is Nancy - Jim doesn't know you at all, and you insulted
him.
Of course he knows what a metaphor is, but you dove right into
the
insults, and by asking him about the knowledge of a metaphor you
are
continuing them by trying to insult his intelligence. (I know they
were
even directed towards me, because I was the original writer).
Fred, if
you are still angry with Cobu or even with Christians in general,
why do
you have to take it out on us, and I personally ask, why especially
when
my main point in writing was to try to agree with you on some of
the
points you made? Is it just "winner takes all" with you -
evolutionary
"step on the other guy" stuff? You couldn't just say to Jim,
"sorry that
I questioned your integrity?" You claim tolerance, but you
are often not
very tolerant of Christians. Just like we had no blood relatives
that
fought in the Civil War from our family, and therefore don't "own"
some
of the issues like people would try to put on us, (we live in the
South
remember), we also don't feel the total responsibility for the
mistakes
made in ancient Christian history. Get over it and move on.
We
Christians (and missionaries) are trying to do better in the future,
studying the mistakes of the past. If you hold onto your
fears of
"ramming" then do you want us to fear your proselytizing for your
No God
position? You want to make us paranoid? We don't agree with
your agenda
either, and you already know it. You like insulting us? Do
you just fit
the atheist's stereotype, or should we look beyond that?
Because if you want to be respected as a person, make it vice-versa.
============================================================================
From: Mike Montoya <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
Yeah ...fred!!!!
mm
=============================================================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
> From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
>
> Fred this is Nancy - Jim doesn't know you
at all, and you insulted him.
> Of course he knows what a metaphor is,
but you dove right into the
> insults, and by asking him about the knowledge
of a metaphor you are
> continuing them by trying to insult his
intelligence. (I know they were
> even directed towards me, because I was
the original writer).
Of course, Herman and a few others here are constantly trying to
insult my
intelligence. But I suppose that's OK -- I'm just a lowly atheist,
a heathen, a
non-believer, not of the body.
> Fred, if you are still angry with
Cobu or even with Christians in general,
> why do
> you have to take it out on us,
I am not "taking it out" on you. Herman challenged me, and I am
responding in
like kind. But I'm the bad one here, the outcast, on the fringe,
and the like.
It's OK for Herman to insult me and launch his ad-homimen attacks,
and I'm
supposed to just be his rug.
Um, I don't think so. I might be a caring soul, but that does not
mean I'm a
weak-minded fool.
> and I personally ask, why especially when
> my main point in writing was to try to
agree with you on some of the
> points you made? Is it just "winner
takes all" with you - evolutionary
> "step on the other guy" stuff?
I did not mean to insult either you or Jim. Sometimes what I say
can be a hard
pill to swallow, and it may seem like I'm insulting you, but that's
not the case
at all.
But what's a cornered rat to do? It does feel like it's all of you
against me
sometimes.
> You couldn't just say to Jim, "sorry that
> I questioned your integrity?" You
claim tolerance, but you are often not
> very tolerant of Christians.
Christians tend not to be very tolerant of non Christians. Christians
tend to
think that us non Christians are of the devil, scum, worldly, without
morality.
Christians seem to have this "holier than thou" high-mindedness,
yet neglect to
see that there is more to human existence than the pursuit of ideology.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Not all Christians are like that, of course,
but many
on this group alone are.
> Just like we had no blood relatives
that
> fought in the Civil War from our family,
and therefore don't "own" some
> of the issues like people would try to
put on us, (we live in the South
> remember), we also don't feel the total
responsibility for the mistakes
> made in ancient Christian history.
How about the mistakes being made today? Like what Fred Phelps is
doing, for
example? Or those who blow up abortion clinics or shoot the doctors?
Where is
the United Christian Voice that strongly condemns such heinous
acts? To quote
one gay rights activist: "The silence is so loud, it's deafening!"
> Get over it and move on.
Tell that to Mr. Shepard. He couldn't even have a decent burial.
> We Christians (and missionaries) are
trying to do better in the future,
> studying the mistakes of the past.
How about doing better NOW? How about standing up to our government
to protest
the wrongful snatching of children? How about standing up for the
rights of the
innocent people in this country?
I guess that's too much to ask for. I suppose your "heaven" and
"living forever"
is more important.
> If you hold onto your fears of
> "ramming" then do you want us to fear your
proselytizing for your No God
> position?
I'm not proselytizing atheism. I'm for dealing with the here and
now, dealing
with those that are suffering TODAY, dealing with various atrocities
that our
own government commits against its own citizens. Dealing with the
extremists --
like the Religious Right that wishes to ram their version of 'God'
down all of
our throats. Pat Robinson, Fred Phelps -- these people need to
be dealt with
NOW.
> You want to make us paranoid? We don't
agree with your agenda
> either, and you already know it.
Fine. If you don't think it's important to help those that are in
need TODAY,
then I'm in with the wrong group.
> You like insulting us? Do you just
fit
> the atheist's stereotype, or should we
look beyond that?
> Because if you want to be respected as
a person, make it vice-versa.
I cannot respect inaction. I cannot respect hollow appeals to "living
forever
tomorrow" when there are those in far more immediate need today.
Now I understand what you are about.
There is really no point to carry this further.
-Fred
-----===============================================
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
Okay Fred, what makes you think we don't do anything against the
evils
you wrote about? Isn't that akin to another accusation?
You're getting
on this high horse about how you are so into the NOW, nobody here
said we
are only living for the "pie in the sky" future - and just like
in your
daily life you make choices based on your position of what you
are able
to do (nobody's asking you to sell your Lexus and give it to the
poor or
the family of that man who was killed injustly or that cause) what
makes
you think we don't do our part for the NOW? There's another
assumption.
I wasn't talking about you taking out your anger on Herman, but
on me and
Jim. Did you ever think maybe we don't want to swallow that
hard pill
you extol? You're not going to "ram" it down our throats now are
you?
Nancy C.
===================================================================================
From: Mike Montoya <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
Yeah, Fred!( ya dang Vorlon!)
=====================================
From: Mike Montoya <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
Fred Fred Fred....blah blah blah.......You surprise me old scout!
your
Vorlon perceptions are out of this world. In other words..sit down
here and
let me tell you a thing or 2 mister. I have glanced at the volleyball
game
you and Herman are having and see that you have rammed the ball
into the
Coogan household and knocked over a lamp and you retreat and claim
no
responsibility. You use your intelligence not for truth but
for more space
on the train. And you seem to behave like "these christians are
all alike" ,
stupid, narrow, holier than thou, blah blah .......blah.
Now listen young
man(firm fatherly tone) if you don't change your attitude , we
are gonna
turn this list around right now.
Okay now the normal me speaking here. Fred , what's the idea putting
us all
in a box? I think you are lazy. Gosh these tired old cliches
about
christians this and christians that. you bring up stuff that might
be true,
might be true...but you really need to be specific. I don't see
any holier
than thou stuff on this list at all. Of course a christian is going
to be
narrow.....for crying out loud...we followa Lord who say that the
way is
narrow....and that He was the only way to God. Of course we are
narrow. But
you drag out the tried lines when you ought to be just saying "look
everyone...i'm sleepy and i need to go to bed" Why blanket everyone
with
this tired nonsense. I think that some of these INDIVIDUALS are
treating you
with courtesy. I think they make reasonable arguments. I
am wide wide open
to see the email where they have mistreated you and did the holier
than thou
stuff. I have not read all the posts. This one is completely wide
wide open
for you to prove. And if anyone ( except Rick Laverdure..who is
koo koo) has
treated you with disrespect or self righteous contempt then i will
go and
sit on their head.
As for you sweeping generalization of our "other world" perspective,
ya dang
Vorlon, Do you really see anyone....anyone on this list do
the la la dance
over your questions and just glazing their way to heaven! Come
on Fred, it's
like you got this stale media generated view of all christians
and you
lazily applied it us without really listening to yourself and us.
What about Matthew Shepherd? You are gonna hang what a bunch of
creeps did
at his funeral on us? I guess I can hang everything every person
who holds
your points of view on you? What about it? Why aren't you devoting
your life
to speaking out against all the injustices and atrocities all the
atheists,
evolutionists, naturalists, environmentalists, Hedonists......?
You
identify yourself accurately and then post it and we will
see if you are
out their with picket signs and bull horns and raising cain over
the
injustices these of your kind have created. You didn't even bother
to ask or
investigate whether or not any of us did protest the behavior of
some so
called christians about Matt Shepherd. Dr. James Dobson spoke vigorously
against the protests. He has the largest Christian radio
audience in the
country. boo Fred....BOOOOOOO! you have carelessly
judged a whole people
and I believe it is because this whole thing with you is personal.
Personal
to the point that you do not even use your intellect and brilliance
properly. You have a something going on with you that we here cannot
come
close to addressing. You are using us as a sounding board for your
(dare I
say it?) Hatred of God. None of these arguments will produce enlightenment
or salvation. My brother Dave was right when he said that when
it comes down
to it, you can satisfy an atheists mind with answers but he still
has to
believe with his heart and that is a matter of the will.
Fred Mitchell....I like you. You were strange and brilliant when
I lived
with you at 162 and you are still a Bengal Spice cup of Tea to
me. I was to
many back there a little bit odd too but always good for museum
conversation. could you please crack out of your views and generalizations
for a space and see us as really different from the glob of religion
you
hate so much.
mm
===============================================================================
From: HMWSAILING@aol.com
Fred, This all started because I answered a fool according to his
folly lest
he be wise in his own eyes. But if I continue this with you then
I shall
become a fool like you. So I will cease this exercise.
Herm Weiss
=============================================================================
From: Mike Montoya <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
Yeah fred!
========================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
> He has the largest Christian
radio audience in the
> country. boo Fred....BOOOOOOO!
you have carelessly judged a whole people
> and I believe it is because this whole
thing with you is personal.
There's the message Mike.
Mike makes some good points, Fred, what now?
Are we all bad? Gonna take your ball and go home?
Or being a bull in a china shop isn't all it's cracked up to be,
now, is it?
You make many good points and statements and even some "proofs"
sometimes. But as some have a problem listening to you -
you in turn
have a problem listening to them, and sometimes you do cross the
line.
It's a bitter pill........
======================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
> I'm not proselytizing atheism. I'm for dealing
with the here and now, dealing
> with those that are suffering TODAY, dealing
with various atrocities that our
> own government commits against its own
citizens. Dealing with the extremists --
> like the Religious Right that wishes to
ram their version of 'God' down all of
> our throats. Pat Robinson, Fred Phelps
-- these people need to be dealt with
> NOW.
Sounds like you want them burnt at the stake or something.
In this country there
is such a thing as free speech. And a lot use it, from white
supremacists to
Farakhan. Al Sharpton is going to stop the traffic on the
Atlantic City Expwy this
weekend
because "why should 'they' have fun on the beach while we are suffering?"!
And such it goes.
My rights end where yours begin.
My right to swing my fist ends at your nose.
Pat Robinson can't ram his version of God down my throat.
I have freedom
to change the dial. A very powerful thing. Change the
dial. No one is making
you listen. Why would you want to listen? Exercise
your freedom and change
the dial.
I don't know who agrees with the Religious Right. Probably
some people with money.
There's lots of misinformation and lots of voices. I wish
I could remember the
equation
I had before. I either read it, yes, I think I read it or
heard it. It was about
how simple things
were and how we have changed.
When David said "I lift up my eyes to the hills" - there were hills
there for him to
see.
Today, we have our air conditioners (thank God), our asphalt and
concrete. Our
skyscrapers and highways. Traffic lights and amplifiers.
We now know the world is
round. We know what an atom looks like. We know how
to split the atom.
We know how the body works (somewhat). We are beginning to
know what part of the
brain does what. We know about nuero transmitters. And on
it goes.
Do these things help? In some ways, of course. They
are labeled "advancements".
And the Lord that made heaven and earth is still there, his hands
outstretched
still.
Dissecting his creation can hold some fascination.
Getting to know the creator...
You are forgetting one thing we learned that cannot be thrown away
(unless you wish
to trash it) The Creator teaches through his creation.
These "simple, uneducated"
fellows you once ridiculed, how did they know to write about Shepherds
and sheep
(A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 shows how great this analogy works
out)
A vine and a Vinedresser, and fruit, and the blood of the grapes.
How great this
fits
our christian life. How all of these things do reflect to
the things that are
unseen.
The things that are seen are transient. That's obvious.
That's scriptural. That
was written
a long time ago. You cast the wisdom of the ages out.
The wisdom in Job and
Psalms.
We can throw a lot of dust in the air and say what about stuff
in Deuteronomy and
all
over the OT. I don't have the answers and it doesn't bother
me. Actually, it does
bother me a bit.
But I have a bigger concern. I know Jesus. I don't
know all the answers.
But I have THE answer. When we get saved, we have everything
we need: Jesus.
We need nothing more. Sure, we grow and experience and we
learn. But in a lot of
cases, learning only serves to puff up and obfuscate. Jesus
is the answer. Simple.
The other stuff is interesting.
Chasing butterflies.
Figuring out larva.
There is value in that. But there is another value that is
just about unspeakable.
Beauty is in the heart of the beholder.
Some are full of judgment and wrath.
That's them.
You have already expressed wonderment in the creation. You
should meet the Creator.
He doesn't talk like Cecil B Demill. It's different for everyone.
And it ain't a bunch of mush.
And ST was never within a mile of it.
The mystery of the gospel is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
=========================================================================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
Hey Fantastic Fred.....I don't want to hear you on any other subject
until
you deal with my email to ya......Come on Fred !
====================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
Michael Montoya wrote:
> From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
>
> Hey Fantastic Fred.....I don't want to hear you on any other
subject until
> you deal with my email to ya......Come on Fred !
Really, Mike, all the flag-waving is quite unnecessary.
> Here is my post in case it got lost in your mail bags
> From: Mike Montoya <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
>
> Fred Fred Fred....blah blah blah.......You surprise me old scout!
your
> Vorlon perceptions are out of this world. In other words..sit
down here and
> let me tell you a thing or 2 mister. I have glanced at the volleyball
game
> you and Herman are having and see that you have rammed the ball
into the
> Coogan household and knocked over a lamp and you retreat and
claim no
> responsibility.
I did not claim "no responsibility", per se.
The arrow was not intended for
them.
> You use your intellengence not for truth but for more space
> on the train. And you seem to behave like "these christians are
all alike" ,
> stupid, narrow, holier than thou, blah blah .......blah.
Now listen young
> man(firm fatherly tone) if you don't change your attitude , we
are gonna
> turn this list around right now.
Huh?
> Okay now the normal me speaking here. Fred , what's the idea putting
us all
> in a box? I think you are lazy.
Not lazy. Just anguished.
> Gosh these tired old cliches about
> christians this and christians that. you bring up stuff that
might be true,
> might be true...but you really need to be specific.
I agree.
> I don't see any holier
> than thou stuff on this list at all.
You many not see it, but to a non-Christian,
sometimes it comes off that way,
especially with many Christian's inability
to acknowledge that other religions
and/or belief systems may be and are equally
as valid, since no one has any
proof or evidence one way or the other.
Just saying that "Jesus is the only way because
the Bible says so" is rather
smug and indifferent, wouldn't you agree?
I mean, if I came to you with a yellow
ball and told you that worshipping the yellow
ball is the only way to true
salvation because the ball itself said it,
what would you think of me?
> Of course a christian is going to be
> narrow.....for crying out loud...we followa Lord who say that
the way is
> narrow....and that He was the only way to God. Of course we are
narrow. But
> you drag out the tried lines when you ought to be just saying
"look
> everyone...i'm sleepy and i need to go to bed"
Sometimes that is true.
> Why blanket everyone with
> this tired nonsense. I think that some of these INDIVIDUALS are
treating you
> with courtesy. I think they make reasonable arguments.
I am wide wide open
> to see the email where they have mistreated you and did the holier
than thou
> stuff....
It all started with the off-handed joke I
posted a while back. It was a joke,
and surely the tone of the post was one of
jest, but "everybody" got bent out of
shape over it. Then Herman came in with his
main salvo and escalated the affair.
For a while it seemed that many was taking
Herman's side and firing right along
with him. So I began digging in and defending
myself for dear life.
> I have not read all the posts. This one is completely wide wide
open
> for you to prove. And if anyone ( except Rick Laverdure..who
is koo koo) has
> treated you with disrespect or self righteous contempt then i
will go and
> sit on their head.
Not necessary, but would be amusing!
> As for you sweeping generalization of our "other world" perspective,
ya dang
> Vorlon, Do you really see anyone....anyone on this list
do the la la dance
> over your questions and just glazing their way to heaven! Come
on Fred, it's
> like you got this stale media generated view of all christians
and you
> lazily applied it us without really listening to yourself and
us.
Come on, Mike! Think about it -- you're the
lone X at a party-full of Ys. What
do you do? Well, actually, there's more to
it than that, because I am currently
under a lot of stress and strain over that
Pizzeria Uno incident I mentioned a
while back. I will fill you in on more details
after my trial, which is on July
29th. It's pretty serious, and there will
be some fallout. There may be some
surprise turns that can be dire for me. I
don't know. I can't talk about it
right now.
> What about Matthew Shepherd? You are gonna hang what a bunch of
creeps did
> at his funeral on us?
No, and I am not targeting you in particular.
I am annoyed at the entire
Christian community and their lack of efforts
to put Fred Phelps back in his
place. He's up in Ontario now causing a ruckus
all because the Canadian
government wants to treat gays a bit more
like human beings. This all smacks of
the Civil Rights struggles back in the 60's.
It seems no one learned a thing
from that. My how we are doom to repeat the
same mistakes -- a little
differently every time -- generation after
generation.
> I guess I can hang everything every person who holds
> your points of view on you? What about it?
Be my guest. Though the pittance in numbers
that hold my views -- and which
views would they be? My stand on gay rights?
My stand on skepticism? My stand on
religion? My stand on parent's rights? My
stand on needless suffering? My
political stand on Libertarianism? Or all
of the above?
> Why aren't you devoting your life
> to speaking out against all the injustices and atrocities all
the atheists,
> evolutionists, naturalists, environmentalists, Hedonists......?
What have they done? Let me address some of the issues.
> You
> identify yourself accurately and then post it and we will
see if you are
> out their with picket signs and bull horns and raising cain over
the
> injustices these of your kind have created.
Please name the injustices!
Besides, I won't have much time for action
outside of cyberspace until I
"retire", whenever that will be -- maybe
in a few years. And when I do, my
efforts will be focused on fighting for parent's
rights and putting an end to
the wrongful child snatching by social workers
in this country.
You have to choose your battles wisely. You only get one chance to do one right.
> You didn't even bother to ask or
> investigate whether or not any of us did protest the behavior
of some so
> called christians about Matt Shepherd. Dr. James Dobson spoke
vigorously
> against the protests. He has the largest Christian radio
audience in the
> country.
Oh well, being that I don't listen to Christian
Radio, I didn't hear him. Narly
a peep in the general media, though. That
may be the media's fault....
> boo Fred....BOOOOOOO!
Go ahead. Lash me. I deserve it.
> you have carelessly judged a whole people
> and I believe it is because this whole thing with you is personal.
Personal
> to the point that you do not even use your intellect and brilliance
> properly.
Sorry. I've got a lunatic running around trying
to get the prosecutor to bring
false charges against me -- false charges
of me molesting my autistic son in a
restaurant washroom on a crowed night barely
3 miles from my home! You know the
level of paranoia of child abuse in this
country, and you know that many
innocent people have been sent to prison
over trumped-up charges and coaching
3-year-olds to say whatever the perverted-minded
prosecutors want! Remember
Little Rascal's?
Sorry I used a heavy hand here. I can't even
take my son to the washroom without
getting the cops called on me. You know what
that makes me feel like? Sorry.
> You have a something going on with you that we here cannot come
> close to addressing.
You bet.
> You are using us as a sounding board for your (dare I
> say it?) Hatred of God.
How can I hate something I don't even hold
to exist? You're not making sense
here, Mike.
> None of these arguments will produce enlightenment or salvation.
I'd be happy if my son were normal. This is
what I meant by True Hope. Not the
pie-in-the-sky living forever and all that.
Just something so painfully simple
it begs the imagination why it's not possible.
Do you have even one iota of an
idea of how difficult it is to raise a boy
like my Andy? Most of the pain and
agony comes from society -- idiots like Clarence
Beal who has this "mission" to
put me away just because he is so dead set
that I would molest my own son in a
public washroom! It sickens enough that someone
can even have a flicker of a
notion of a thought that I would do something
like that -- but then to call the
cops on me and beg the prosecutor to come
down on me?
See, this is a sample of the REAL PROBLEMS
I have to deal with on a day-by-day
basis. I have to deal with the idiots in
the world that constantly try to
destroy my family. Sorry. I've said too much
already.
> My brother Dave was right when he said that when it comes down
> to it, you can satisfy an atheists mind with answers but he still
has to
> believe with his heart and that is a matter of the will.
I don't care about beliefs -- threw them out long ago. They simply don't work.
> Fred Mitchell....I like you.
Likewise.
> You were strange and brilliant when I lived
> with you at 162 and you are still a Bengal Spice cup of Tea to
me. I was to
> many back there a little bit odd too but always good for museum
> conversation. could you please crack out of your views and generalizations
> for a space and see us as really different from the glob of religion
you
> hate so much.
I'm not angry at you guys. I'm just wondering
where I'm going to be 3 or 4
months from now. I got some real issues to
work out, and I guess I'm not much
for fairy tales right this moment. I do not
mean to hurt anyone. The only things
and people I hate are those things and people
that threaten the integrity of my
family. Losing a job is nothing -- I can
always get another one. But losing my
kids -- again -- or even worse, being incarcerated,
not being able to support
them -- that's what I'm up against. I hope
I'm just paranoid.
-Fred
==============================
From: Mike Montoya <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
Fred, I could with the help other greater minds pick apart
your response
but....you situation is beyond this talk we are having.
I will save this post for another time. Fred, I will talk to God
about you.
I know that God works things out. If I understood
why He does or allows the things he does...i would have people
camping on my
zeroscape.(NM term for rocks for grass)
I will not try to repair your finger when you got a hatchet in
your back.
Mike
====================================
From: MGriffo@aol.com
I was thinking a lot today about what you wrote. I
know how precious your
son is to you and how much all of this irks you. People in
general don't do
a good job in handling their emotions when it comes to disabled
people. I'll
write more later...just wanted to let you know my thoughts and
prayers are
with you.
=======================================
From: Fred <fred@mitchellware.com>
Yes, I get a little heavy-handed some of the time. But it is just
my impression
that sometimes some Christians seem to have their heads in the
clouds when there
is real work to be done. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my perception.
Mercy Core International raised enough money
to supply the Kosovos with
500 wood burning stoves - and that was about
four years ago. (The "Crisis"
has been going on a long time as basically
we all know).
That was some real work that got done.
The stoves could be used not only to
cook but to keep warm in winter. Very
valuable.
How about Jeff Bernstein leading many Jews
to the Messiah?
Mercy Core goes all around the world - and
quite often to those cases of
urgent need. Also, you get "more bang
for your buck". Over 90 cents of
every dollar goes directly to those receiving
the help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your perception. There's a saying "perception is everything"
either in the
media or politics or both.
If you decide your vocation is to "feed the homeless", so be it.
I recall from your site, or you talking about your site that you
help
abused children. There's a noble cause.
I am sure others have theirs. Maybe they're a housewife.
Is that not
one of the most important vocations on this planet?
What's mine? Good question...
=============================================
From: imgalileo@webtv.net (rosie)
"my right to swing my fist ends at your nose." what a great quote! :^)
<3 rosie
============================================
From: Owen
Dear All & Fred
Fred: I'm going to talk about
you not to you.
Fred said:
>Now hold on here! Who said I was "unsaved"?
I was "saved" just like you are
>were! I said the "Sinner's Prayer" and "gave
my life to Jesus" back in 1980,
>with COBU. I, too, felt "the burden of sins"
roll away and heard the angels
>sing. It did, indeed "change my life". It
was my experience. My heart was into
>it at the time.
>
>Are you trying to say that my salvation
under COBU, and that initial experience,
>is invalid? Or the salvation of all of those
I "led to Jesus" during that time
>is also invalid? If so, what does
constitutes "valid salvation"? What makes is
>characteristically different from saying
the sinner's prayer under COBU?
Good question.
If we were Arminians,
then this would be easy. We would say that Fred really did get saved,
but that he totally backslid. And if he dies backslidden, then he
perishes.
BUT since I have come around
to the Calvinist viewpoint, I now believe in the doctrine of "the preservation
of the saints" (a/k/a"once saved, always saved",). So either
Fred was truly saved and therefore will eventually rededicate OR he was
never really saved.
Now I have had to change
my view on what "once saved" means. I no longer believe that any virtual
stranger who prays a prayer is automatically saved. In COBU we would
pray with people who were supposedly making a lifetime commitment; who
were promising to change from a life in the flesh to a life of taking up
their cross to follow Jesus. Yet we had only known them for 2 hours (or
only 15 minutes). And of that 2 hours we did most of the talking. And if
someone said they were in a hurry, we’d say "oh this will only take 5 minutes".
So someone could "get saved" and not know: )who Adam and Eve were; )who
Abraham was; )what the Passover was )what the 10 commandments are; )what
exactly sin is; )etc. (I wasn’t the only one who at some point decided
to be cautious about who I’d pray with.")
After I realized the truth
of Calvinism, I started rethinking my COBU experiences. 1John says
"he who does right is righteous". And I examined various COBUites
in that light. Obviously ST was at the top of the list of folks I
wonder about. But there are others. "There is someone who was in
my "three fold cord" who showed the art show and prayed with people to
get saved. He is now an atheist."
This is a quote from my essay "was ST ever saved?" and it refered
to Fred.
It will seem incredible
to some of us that someone can move in and go witnessing and still not
be saved. BUT humans are capable of great amounts of self deception.
Hypocrites at the judgment will claim to have cast out demons. (They probably
did.) Jonathan Edwards preaches "it is possible to come under the influence
of the word, such that it has a positive effect on your behavior, without
actually being born again". (So a changed life is not necessarily proof
of genuine conversion.)
Besides all people go
through great changes during their adolescence. So how do you tell if a
change in lifestyle is truly conversion? I used to be confident to pronounce
someone saved. Not anymore! Some people joined COBU it seems, because of
the good camaraderie. (We actually had that once.)
In his book "Grace Abounding
To The Chief Of Sinners", John Bunyan tells how he quit cursing, started
attending church, became conversant in scripture and even became the church
bell ringer without being saved or hearing about grace. (This process took
a few years.)
I once believed that
I got saved on the day I said the sinners prayer. I no longer believe this.
I was saved at some indeterminate point a few months later. (I was already
witnessing by this time.) But then I was convicted of what sin is, and
what my sins cost Jesus. I cried out in despair and He gave me heavenly
comfort and joy unspeakable. (Which moving in to COBU months later, totally
undermined.)
So while we are warned against judging,
and we don't know the end of a matter, and we should pray that Fred repents
of his unbelief (or should that be willfulness?), yet I can't help
but conclude that Fred must not have been truly converted. HOW can
someone go from preaching that Jesus is the Son of God, to disbelieving
that God exists???
And by my Lord I'll get there
Owen Camp
Bronx NY dococ@prodigy.net
===========================================================================================
I'm going to hope that many of you on this list are not cold hearted.
It seems to me that Fred shared something very personal that is a major
weight on his shoulders with all of us. I think for those who wish
to continue to debate about belief's or lack of them are missing their
opportunity to be a true friend here. Otherwise, the picture I am
getting is that being a Christian simply means being able to display "the
truth" as you see it. Did that make sense?
And Mike I am excluding you from this, as I saw you acknowledge that you realize it is time to lay off the debate and give this man some moral support.
Fred, you already know how I feel, I wish there was something I could do, I feel so helpless.... but I am hoping for the best turn out possible for you, so you can leave for your August trip in peace. Told my husband what happened to you and he thinks you are a target of racial discrimination.
Love life and live,
Carol Stutts
===========================================================================
From: Sco4bet@aol.com
Dear Fred,
I've been pretty silent for the most part
on this list, but I'd like
to say that I have not been offended by anything you have had
to say. I struggle with my spirituality, I'm not where you
are at,
but I don't have it all in a neat little box. I find it disturbing
that
so many seemed to get bent out of shape. I do not believe
it is
up to those individuals to convert you or change your views.
To me that's all too much of what COBU was like.
I was very moved by your predicament and
hope that it all turns out.
Are there any organizations there that you can get
helped by? Let us all know how things turn out and if there
is
anything we can do.
Don't know if you remember who I am, I think
I remember you.
Betsy
===============================================