<< No offense Fred..but
 does anyone know who you are?...dog gone it...the whole world has gone
 barmy. >>
 

Someone would have to intentionally look for this COBU site to find it. I am
a busy person but my eternal life outweighs everything. It might be worth
something if you asked me personally something about myself. :) Friends???
=============================================================

From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

You have the snappy spunk of the former John the A. Therefore I despise you
and trust you at the same time, I will defend you to the end and stomp on
your face when I get the chance.  Peace, Love and much fighting.

mm
==================================================================

From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Mike, easy on the spurs.  And give the horse a name.
Frank Grizzard is who he says he is.  And though I have never
heard Fred's name in my life - he seems real, doesn't he?
He went back and saw Chuck 5 years ago - he's got stories
that can be verified.  They ring of truth to me.  His views are
different like most of us are different - as usual.   Let's take it slower.
We're all trying to make peace and sense of our past.
I have made peace with my past but it still strikes a nerve and some
things still churn.  And my faith in Jesus is still intact.
J the A openly hid himself.  Frank is open and our brother and I
welcome him.  Fred?  Sorry brother, we've been weathering some
storms and you are getting some of the backlash.
It's not your fault.
BTW, no one got my Frank Grizzard why did you cheat on Cathy Lee joke?
And I told my nephew about Mrs Kravitz and he said sure, she's
Lenny Kravitz's wife.  Excuse - Bewitched - the nosey neighbor.
Reminds me a couple of years ago my nephew would have been around 11.
He got a Lewis and Clark game.  And I said you know what they did, right?
Sure  - they were on Superman....
=====================================================================

From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

Okay...I just read some of Fred's emails to others and it does appear that
he can put names and dates down and trade stories...so I guess he is not a
spy....Sorry Fred....I'm taking College Algebra.....I'm a little edgy.
Forgive me? Has anyone recognized you yet? You do seem to know cobu to an
extent.  if you wanna get along with me...then bash Stew alot in your
emails....bashing Stew is where it's at man...bash bash bash. (lol) I got
bigger fish to fry. College Algebra. If there is any way I can help
you.....put out an announcement or connect you in some way. Do you know that
we are having a reunion in Sept?
=============================================================================
Yes, I did know about the reunion. I can't commit to that at this point.

I was watching an old episode of "Gomer Pyle" re-runs and enjoying that guys
antics and laughed. Then I remembered hearing that he was a believer. From
that point I started to analyze him instead of just enjoy him.

I had more problems with a pastor from the church I went to after COBU than
with Stewart. All these experiences are adding to my eternal life in some
way. Now since they are adding, since all things work to good, then its no
fun throwing stones any more. Besides, I would hate someone to lift up the
stone, and see me, for the creepy crawly things that have often motivated me.
I have done far more damage that I care to talk about thank you.

For example: I am divorced..... I was being, in some sense, an ST to my wife.
I controlled her every thought and action. Thank God she had enough sense to
leave before I turned her into a puppet. She still loves me and I have grown
up, and she is the mother of my two girls, now 18 and 20 years old.

I work full time in a union Bakery production shop for a major grocery chain
called Wegmans. I also work self employed from my home, thus the computer and
Internet access. Retail sales of ammunition. (For the shooting sports, not
for killing people) That is why my E-mail is Ammobank4.

I just sent a message to Maureen about myself and how someone might recall me.

Thanks.
Fred Beggs
===============================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: Ammobank4@aol.com
>
> I do not go to any "Church" now and I can't see it happening again. I was
> with another church for 10 or more years after COBU. Thank God for them
> because it gave me a place for rest. But I could eventually no longer sit in
> a church pew (besides I knew I was more than someone that someone else could
> preach to)

EXACTLY!

> How could I be bitter toward Stewart? Everything he said had a tremendous
> weight of truth. Even though there was error I could still see where he was
> coming from. But Jesus is the truth and to Him I owe my life. Stewart could
> be compared to being like a father.

He's not ST bashing, per se,  Mike - but you've talked about this before - the
father
figure and all.  I may have talked about it too.  Take a moment, and
remember - we're talking the the 1970's rendition of Stewart.
And where we were at in the 1970's.  And remember Bible studies like
Psa 36.9   We thought we were experiencing greatness.

> The intent was often toward our good, but
> he did not know he was keeping us from Jesus. Which is what parents often do.
> Not that Jesus is really limited to the power of Stewart. He was a perfect
> stepping stone. An usher, so to speak, of what was to come in my life later.

Nice summation.  Something we've all been trying to say for a while.
 

Tom P
===========================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: Ammobank4@aol.com
>
> For example: I am divorced..... I was being, in some sense, an ST to my wife.
> I controlled her every thought and action. Thank God she had enough sense to
> leave before I turned her into a puppet. She still loves me and I have grown
> up, and she is the mother of my two girls, now 18 and 20 years old.

Is that a 'happy' ending?  To get out of the Stewart mold is no small task.
I have heard of other marriages where the bad fruit of Stewart has really
messed things up.  And Stewart was very very bad in this regard.  He
summarily got rid of his first wife.  Gayle was sending love letters to
Stew while Stew was still living with Shirley.
Stew was committing adultery even before he could pin that on Shirley and
thus get away scott free.  (It's not positive about the adultery, but
one can only think...   the letters were there)  Stewart was out and out
(behind everyone's back) maneuvering for a younger wife - as many men
in middle age crisis and newly acquired power do.  And he treated
Shirley in a manner very unbecoming to a "Christian" man.
But back to the point, many of us, and I say I still can at the drop of a
hat go into my Stewart imitation.  It's when it gets ingrained and a
part of our very being that it's, it's, very sad and bad.  Can't think
of anything else to say.
=============================================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

In a message dated 7/11/99 2:59:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tpierron@Op.Net
writes:

<< Is that a 'happy' ending?  To get out of the Stewart mold is no small task.
 I have heard of other marriages where the bad fruit of Stewart has really
 messed things up. >>

Still divorced if that's what you mean.

Yes, we do take on traits from people who have influenced our lives. Both
good and bad.

It is sort of like picking up that Long Island accent. It is bound to happen
if your there long enough.

What is rather sad is God finally made me aware of how I was hurting her and
not helping her after she had already called it quits. She stayed with me
only because I wouldn't agree to divorce.

Because I, for the first time in 15 years of marriage, saw her, I mean really
opened my eyes and saw this girl and loved her, I knew it was time to take my
controls off. I explained to her how it really is my fault, in many ways, for
the problems. I also explained that I believed divorce was not a way out and
how the girls still need their Dad and Mom, together. But the reigns were off
and I let her go.

I have more confidence in God and my relationship to Him now, than I did
before. I no longer need to rely on what others tell me is God's will, even
if it's words from a prophet of God. More than that, we all have personal
ideas as to what is right and wrong and do and act accordingly. Because of
those variations in idea's, and each person being taught by parents certain
things that may seem right, God offers us Grace to swallow it all up, and to
extend that same grace to one another. Does grace give us permission to do
wrong? No but also, Yes.

If it wasn't Stewart it would have been someone else I would have been
influenced by. Maybe some hyped up Rock Star, or TV personality or some
charismatic, Pentecostal preacher. My Dad was no doubt already part of me,
good or bad, he just was and is.

That's it!  I could lay this on Stewart. "Sorry, Honey its Stewart's fault I
was acting like a childish lamebrain. I can't help it."

YOU HAVE TO READ THIS:
It was just before our marriage break up that I went to visit the church. I
remember calling my wife to let her know I was coming home early and will
need to arrange a pick-up at the train station. I explained they (in-Boos)
always talked down to me and I was never allowed on equal ground. She said,
"That's the way you are with me." I literally died. I may have been standing
on my feet but my life just drained out of me. I said, "Your Right." Then she
graciously let me off the hook, "But that is what you were exposed to."

Stewart will always be a part of me. I am convinced it's not all bad. "Just
as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image
of the man of heaven." This is not exactly the same but it is the end of the
matter. "Happy Ending"

Fred Beggs
==============================================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

In a message dated 7/11/99 7:20:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
montoya@integrityonline1.com writes:

<< Why can't you and others like you who
 have genuinely suffered the garbage of cobu just call and ace an ace? >>

Many had the same problems with Paul the Apostle. Even though miraculous
signs were seen through Paul's life, many just couldn't swallow him very
good. I am not so sure if I could have accepted Paul all that well.

I don't know if I could explain to you, in a way you can accept it.

Remember Moses, how he took credit for striking the stone for water to come
forth and God in no way allowed him to experience the Promised Land but could
only see it from a distance. Then all of them were not permitted, but after
they all died their children were lead over through Joshua. The imperfect
Moses was instrumental to their inheritance. Also, symbolically speaking, I
died. That me that was into "Faith in Jesus" but what came out of my death
was the work of God.

Each imperfect man was called of God to do just what they did, but it is not
by man that we are save but by God through his grace. God is doing just what
he promised to do. "Perfect stepping stone" I stick to my words.

FredB

===========================================================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

Fred..Fred Fred......Mike M here...you had me all the way up to Stew was a
stepping stone. Goodness man....you describe horrible separations you were
taught and separations inacted by brothers under Stew's influence but "STEW
WAS THE PERFECT STEPPING STONE?"   Why can't you and others like you who
have genuinely suffered the garbage of cobu just call and ace an ace?  Stew
kinda bad 1971 Stew bad 1974 Stew really bad 1976-79 Stew sickenly bad
1980-1989 Stew wicked 1989-Present.   Just admit it....Where's Neil.?
Neil...now don't go off on me......Let me get prepared((((flame retardant
suit...check.....pith helmet....check....bee keeper
netmask...check...asbestos undies......oh gosh!!  ROOOOODDDDDDD?!?!?!
==========================================================================
From: JThomas945@aol.com

In a message dated 99-07-11 21:21:46 EDT, you write:

<< Many had the same problems with Paul the Apostle. Even though miraculous
 signs were seen through Paul's life, many just couldn't swallow him very
 good. I am not so sure if I could have accepted Paul all that well.>>

Fred, please don't devalue the ministry of the Apostle Paul by mentioning him
in the same breath as ST.  Please don't compare ST to the great
representatives of God,  you do a diservice to God and His Word.

 >I don't know if I could explain to you, in a way you can accept it.>

No you couldn't, most of us are wiser than that.

 >>Remember Moses, how he took credit for striking the stone for water to
come
 forth and God in no way allowed him to experience the Promised Land but
could
 only see it from a distance.  >>

Fred, go back and learn your bible, you've got this one all wrong, Moses
didn't get refused entry to the promised land for "taking credit".

Mike M, you may be right about this one.

In Christ,
JT

============================================================
OK, I will.
Fred B
==================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: Ammobank4@aol.com
> . I explained they (in-Boos)
> always talked down to me and I was never allowed on equal ground. She said,
> "That's the way you are with me." I literally died. I may have been standing
> on my feet but my life just drained out of me. I said, "Your Right." Then she
> graciously let me off the hook, "But that is what you were exposed to."

I was in a verbally abusive relationship, and there was one stretch where
she would do something, and a week later I would just sit there and watch
it as it was happening to her what she had done to me.  I wasn't orchestrating
anything - it was just coming around full circle to her and vindicating me
and holding up a mirror to her face.  Time after time.  I was amazed.
She got much better, but we are still not compatible.
In about 3 weeks she'll be 800 miles away for good.
There's light at the end of the tunnel - this has been a long struggle
for me, I could write probably five separate novels just off the cuff.
But I don't want to go back over it right now, and I don't see it
benefiting anyone else...

> Stewart will always be a part of me. I am convinced it's not all bad. "Just
> as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image
> of the man of heaven." This is not exactly the same but it is the end of the
> matter. "Happy Ending"

There is healing from Stewart.  I can see you've gone through a lot
already.  We're survivors.
Tom P.
===============================
Mike, you're using a flame thrower to burn a tick.  As I said before, this is
the
1970's rendition of ST he's talking about, and as Maureen reiterates, a bit
of a different story than the 1980's and onward.
We know now that ST was doing many underhanded and abusive things to us.
But we still looked to and respected him and his guidance and thought he
was helping us with our relationship with Jesus.  In 20/20 hindsight we now
know better.  But if that were my only memory - as it is with Fred and many
others - Stewart wasn't all that bad.  Like I said, things like the Psa 36.9
Bible
Study, and many Bible studies before meetings started to turn into beatings
night after night.
This was a unique spiritual boot camp.  Don't take your bitterness about
Stewart out on Fred.  Fred's just saying he moved on, and took some of
the baggage with him and suffered for it - just like we all have.
I was impressed with the way Stewart pushed the scriptures and Jesus
driving it home all the time.  In later years he used scripture to form
his own brand of psychology (but he would never ever call it that)
and this is more like the 1980's and onward.
There are nice things to be said about Stewart (not many) and bad things
to be said about him.  I am glad I went through this spiritual boot camp.
But just cause someone doesn't want to stand outside Stewart's condo
with a flame thrower waiting for him to come out standing shoulder to
shoulder with you doesn't mean he wants to kiss the ground that
Beardboy walks.  Fred makes very good points.  He's thought about
it all these years too.
Are you sure that it's just not a habit for you to go
Fred..Fred Fred......Mike M here...
Tom P
=============================================
From: "Mike Montoya" <montoyam80@hotmail.com>

Not a habit.....okay it is a habit...Fred Fred Fred.....Tom , I'm glad
yer talkin...cuz I really don't have the stomach right now. I must be going
thru another wave. Sorry everyone. I still want Fred B to answer my question.
If Neil, Rob and John Schultz are on this list, Then I want them to be them
and not turn this forum into a mockery. I think Neil is a straight shooter,
I don't know what Rob is like and I would not put it past John Schultz as
per our limited corresponsence on line. Dog gone it!!...I don't wanna get
burned. I am sick of putting energy into what might be a lie!. God help
me please. I cannot endure this again. Who can I trust? okay I can trust a
bunch of you. i won't mention names. Some of you don't know me and your
life's next breath does not depend on gaining MM's trust. I know. I do
notpresume. What I am saying here is just wide open raw frustration. I was
walking around the Walmart yesterday and thinkin..gosh we humans are
messed up. me you everyone. Not a perfect one in the bunch. Can't really lean
onanyone for too long. I am the worst. What's the point? I mean "God
please just save everyone and close up shop." Why go thru this whole drama.
just win!. Just clean the devil's clock and let's go home already. I'm tired
of arguing. I am tired of living here with this flesh that wants all this
crap i can't have. Take me home. I am offensive. I am a wreck of a christian.
I am an embarrassment to your name and those who bear your name. Why
learn? Why argue? Who will be persuaded? Who has ever been persuaded by words?
God cracks open the hard heart. Why words could i join together to convince
FredMitchell? I cannot answer him to satisfy his heart that he might turn to
you. God has the power to heal. He does what he pleases. I cannot argue
falsely for him, I can hardly argue truthfully for him. I have made
enough mistakes on this page for you all to see how unqualified I am for the
lightest responsibility. How are we doing here? Why did God allow us to
know each other the way we did and do? What now? Is this all imagination? Am
I not obligated to you, to serve you as a brother? If I deny it all as
imagination, then why can I not run from everything that we are and
forget? I cannot and will not move back in to cobu. it is a disgrace to God.
John the A spoke last year..."If it were God's will, I would move back in." I
now know that John/Frank is much smarter and less naive than that. I guess
if God parted the clouds and sent me back there I would go. But not to join
in their wickedness..but to end the thing. End it! What use has God for a
group of cult members who poison his message of salvation, whose leader....i
cannot speak on...someone else please.

mm
==========================================

In a message dated 7/11/99 10:01:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGriffo@aol.com
writes:

Fred...it I had left when you did, I may well be saying the same things
you
 are.  Suffice it to say that if you would have stayed into the 80's (I left
 in '86)  or even later '89 on when the Twilight Zone really took over, I
have
 a strong suspicion that you wouldn't be talking as you are right now.  Of
 course you got good from there...I hope all of us can say that in varying
 degrees we good some good.
   However, it would not be my path of choice to get whatever good I did get
 as I experienced much more abuse, trauma and devaluation of who I was as an
 individual while I was there.  I had nightmares for years after leaving.
Let
 me correct that...I had nightmares for years after they threw me out.  Why
 was I thrown out?  When you're starting to push 30, rats, mice, filth, high
 crime neighborhood, broken down building, overcrowding, etc. starts really
 getting to you.  About 25 of the sisters begged to live better.  When we
did,
 the all-male board with Stewart's approval sold the building from under us.
 They wouldn't approve any of our plans and we were left on the street with
 the brothers taunting us--calling us harlots, etc.  None of the other houses
 would let us in their doors because we were manuevering women.  One of the
 sisters was blind.  I could have been raped or killed or God knows what in
 that neighborhood...what could have happened to her?  That's only part of
the
 story. Anyway, if many of us cannot echo your enthusiastic words about COBU
 and Stewart, perhaps you can more understand why.  Sounds like you escaped
 getting voted on too and being publicly humilated through that...voting was
 instituted in 1977 and continued for years--in fact to this day--taking
 various forms...all of them very cruel.  Hmmm, and let me see...you also
 missed the sitting in silence for hours and hours on end because we felt too
 unfaithful to talk...sometimes not even using the bathroom.  Stewart would
 really help us feel condemned with his remarks here and there while we were
 sitting there.  At one point he stopped meeting with the older ones (23 and
 over) because he said to meet with us would be tempting God because of our
 unfaithfulness.  Life kind of got like that book Lord of the Flies among
 us....with this enormous pressure to change somehow so that we would be
 faithful and Stewart would stop withholding himself from us.  We'd get
 together for a Bible study but usually there was so much cutting each other
 to pieces we'd not even end up reading a verse...things like...how can we
 read the Bible in this spirit, we're playing games.  Or if we'd try to
 pray...we're only going to be mocking God...he doesn't hear an empty plea,
 etc., etc.  Those meetings were grueling. Stewart cleverly looked like he
was
 at a distance and had nothing to do with what was happening among us.
 Meanwhile when he did have messages for us or we'd see him at a meeting  he
 would say subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, things to us that would keep
 us charged up to beat ourselves and each other bloody.  Of course, he'd make
 it look like it all came from us and if we really listened, we'd be
different
 and in fellowship with him.  He would turn what he created and the blame on
 us and make sure we felt the full weight of guilt...all the while exalting
 himself as imitating Christ.  If we were faithful we could be married like
 him.  If we were faithful, we could live in a really nice house like he did
 in Princeton and not in the slums like we did.  If we were faithful we
 wouldn't be so miserable.  We'd be able to stand up to the wrong spirit
among
 us and overcome.
     There's so much more, but do you get my drift?  With the recent article
 in Philadelphia Magazine and realizing more of what really happened there, I
 am even more upset at how violating COBU was...as I've said before on the
 Onelist....it was like going through a rape of the soul. >>

================================================

From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Thanks maureen for sharing that with me. It does help me to understand why
there is bitterness. I did touch on the voting thing. Of course I was voted
brown.

I left another church (not COBU) about 2 years ago that would publicly speak
against those who chose to fellowship elsewhere, or just left because of the
limitations. I was no longer a meek, powerless, feeble person by this time.
God put some flame under me. (His Spirit) I finally spoke up and said, "None
of those who have left have ever hurt me in any way. It appears to me that
the tares remain on the vine while the seeds drop off and go through a
process." I spoke of my experience with COBU and how if I visit them the only
ones that would be there are the ones that have hurt me the most. Like thorns
as compared to the fruit.

Jesus said, "Bind them in bundles to be burned"  and "Let them grow together"

Forgive me for honoring Stewart when you had experienced such an ordeal,
which I am sure others on this list have encountered as well.

Jesus, never did give us a line of seductive speech. He told us the way it is
and the way it is going to be.

I think it had to be harder on the sisters than the brothers. Stewart, by
understanding alone should have known better, but somehow he believed faith
is what saved us. Believing that, in conjunction with getting self
exalted.....  I can imagine the horrors that took place.

But nevertheless, God somehow connected some things, helping me to understand
why Stewart could speak so much truth yet not relate to what Jesus was
declarative of.

I like what Jesus said about John the Baptist, "... you were willing to
rejoice in his light for a while.."  For a while.

Fred
=============================================
From: "Mike Montoya" <montoyam80@hotmail.com
How could I be bitter toward Stewart? Everything he said had a
   tremendous
   weight of truth. Even though there was error I could still see where
   he was
   coming from. But Jesus is the truth and to Him I owe my life.
   Stewart could
   be compared to being like a father.
 

NO...WHAT STEWART SAID HAD A TREMENDOUS WEIGHT OF MANIPULATION, PRIDE,
WICKEDNESS, SIN.  I GUESS WE COULD SAY THAT THE DEVIL WHEN TEMPTING
JESUS
SPOKE WITH A "TREMENDOUS WEIGHT OF TRUTH." TOM P  YOU GOTTA SPEAK FOR
ME...I
BARELY PUT UP WITH JOHN THE A'S SOFT PEDDLE...I AM NOT READY FOR
THIS...I AM
NOT WILLING TO STAND FOR THIS WHOLE MESS AGAIN.
MM
==========================================
From: "Mike Montoya" <montoyam80@hotmail.com>
Remember Moses, how he took credit for striking the stone for water to
come
forth and God in no way allowed him to experience the Promised Land but
could
only see it from a distance. Then all of them were not permitted, but
after
they all died their children were lead over through Joshua. The
imperfect
Moses was instrumental to their inheritance. Also, symbolically
speaking, I
died. That me that was into "Faith in Jesus" but what came out of my
death
was the work of God.

Each imperfect man was called of God to do just what they did, but it is
not
by man that we are save but by God through his grace. God is doing just
what
he promised to do. "Perfect stepping stone" I stick to my words.

Fred

Fred, are you in anyway affiliated, associated, in connection with Neil
Pendry and his group? I want a straight answer.

mm
=========================================
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>

MM- you are just a bit battle weary.  Pray for Revival.  (Give up your
own Saviour complex).  It takes a while for the reality of ST's sins to
sink into those of us who had only the 70s experience.  Even though we
received less obvious beatings than you "young sheep" did eventually,
this new Fred Beggs (whose name rings "half-a-bell" with both Jim and I)
may need some time to process the information before he reaches any solid
conclusions.  Just give him some time to understand some more.  He's
approaching it the same way many of us did - we were taught that somehow
it was us who were unfaithful for not being able to sustain our own
experience in Cobu - that when we left we were leaving something we just
weren't good enough to keep up with.  It takes a while to get past that
delusion and see that we were Christians (at least a good many of us) who
were being deceived because we wanted the good, and the deceiver was
wearing sheep's clothing, and blaming us for not producing more fleece
for his purposes.  We sheep thought he was a shepherd, and it is hard for
us to come to terms with how much he was/is a hireling. love, your sis
Nancy C.

===========================================

       From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Yea, you tell 'im sis; MM, you listen to her.
==================================
             From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

In a message dated 7/11/99 11:50:48 PM EST, Ammobank4@aol.com writes:

<<
 But nevertheless, God somehow connected some things, helping me to
understand
 why Stewart could speak so much truth yet not relate to what Jesus was
 declarative of.

 I like what Jesus said about John the Baptist, "... you were willing to
 rejoice in his light for a while.."  For a while.

 Fred >>

Hi Fred B, I hope you weren't implying that ST is in anyway, shape, or form a
light like John the Baptist is. In my estimation he is more like the devil
using the Scriptures to tempt Christ with. When did we ever hear about any
real teaching on Christ's Blood shed for us? Produce something in writing
about that & other aspects of the Atonement. I know not any. The little
gospel I actually learned was from reading tracts printed by other Christian
organizations In the early days of the FF & from God's Spirit showing me
things independently from ST.
 

                                        Herm Weiss
  =======================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Hi Mike, I saw & said the same thing you did concerning ST being like the
devil in using the Scriptures to tempt Christ. We must remember what Jesus
said about
him that he is the father of lies & there is NO TRUTH in him. He is the
spirit at work in ST from the beginning. (JN 8:44). Calm yourself brother God
promised to right every wrong, & wipe away every tear, etc. (REV 21:4). If
some wish to believe that ST is, was a great teacher come from God so be it, we can't change them if
they want to hold on for whatever reason their beliefs about him. Just be thankful
God opened your eyes & leave it in His hands.  I didn't mean to insult anyone seeing this message. I'm just
telling it as I see it.

Herm Weis
=========================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

In a message dated 7/12/99 10:21:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
montoyam80@hotmail.com writes:

<< >How could I be bitter toward Stewart? Everything he said had a tremendous
 >weight of truth. Even though there was error I could still see where he was
 >coming from. But Jesus is the truth and to Him I owe my life. Stewart could
 >be compared to being like a father.

 NO...WHAT STEWART SAID HAD A TREMENDOUS WEIGHT OF MANIPULATION, PRIDE,
 WICKEDNESS, SIN.  I GUESS WE COULD SAY THAT THE DEVIL WHEN TEMPTING JESUS
 SPOKE WITH A "TREMENDOUS WEIGHT OF TRUTH." TOM P  YOU GOTTA SPEAK FOR ME...I
 BARELY PUT UP WITH JOHN THE A'S SOFT PEDDLE...I AM NOT READY FOR THIS...I AM
 NOT WILLING TO STAND FOR THIS WHOLE MESS AGAIN.
 MM >>

Mike,

Simply put....   Don't respond.

You make it sound like it is your responsibility to set me straight. Please
don't.  I am only relating what I have experienced, not what I think. There
is a difference.

Clinton, in my eyes is far more of a manipulator that Stewart was, and I
believe that Clinton knows it.

What Stewart did after I left I cannot tell. I know he confessed to
mis-leading the church. Fact is, church for me is history, any church, Jesus
had better things in store for me all along, only I didn't know it.

Tom was not quite right about the father image thing. Even Jesus was raised
by Joseph, and He obeyed him. We don't hear too much about Joseph after a
while. Likewise we are not going to hear too much of Stewart after a while.
The point is this: God allows some people to be born into a home where the
Father, or Mother for that matter is abusive or an Alcoholic, not good. Does
that mean God made a mistake or there is no hope for the children?
Nevertheless that is how they entered life. For them their experience will be
a part of them their whole lives. How long can we hold bitterness before it
destroys from the inside, like worms.

Mike, your exams are what you should be focusing on right now. Leave me to
Jesus, He is able.

If you only knew what you sound like?

Fred Beggs
===========================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Mike,

Us Boos should have heard this Joke along time ago:
OK, this guy slips off the edge of a cliff and before falling to his death he
reaches out and grabs hold of some brush and hangs on for dear life. He
begins to panic and yell for help but he knows there is no one around to hear
him. Out of desperation he calls out to God, "God, I have never prayed before
and I am not sure you even exist but if are really up there, please help me."
Suddenly to his amazement he hears God say to him, "All you have to do is LET
GO!" The guy mumbles to himself, "What?" Then calls out again, "Hey, Is there
anybody else up there?"

Fred

==============================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

Tom , and anyone who can take this ball and run with it.  Maureen..you
actually said what I wanted to say to Fred B.  Please forgive my reaction to
your posts Fred B.  I have a hard time with anyone getting on the list and
saying stuff that mildly puts Stew in the Moses category.  Frank
Grizzard...are you listening to Fred B.? This is the stuff that makes me
want to eat my math textbook.

You both were not in long and when you were in your were not targets so I
can see why "Stew is such a perfect stepping stone " and "some of his
teachings I still hold to"(John the A...last year). Since I am struggling
with Math right now...and I have quit coffee for the 27th time in my
life.....I am really not the one to flame on here. Some one else please talk
to Fred B in a manner that is befitting to saints. I cannot take this sweet
talk about Stew.  I am ready to impale myself on......darn it ..the wife has
hid all the sharp objects again.....

Math where is thy victory
Math where is thy sting

I'll tell you where......

1063 Sand Dune Rd.

Body count   (1)

Here lies Mike Montoya
the logarithms got him
============================================
RODS JOKE
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Nancy,

Forgive me for interrupting this message. I agree with the self blame thing.
That was wrong and very psychologically scarring, and I am sure greater
debaucheries were committed. It appears to me that I am not getting this
across. If Satan himself sat me down and introduced me to the things that
Convicted me of the reality of God, then Satan is a fool. If Satan cast out
demons then his house cannot stand. I know it was the Holy Spirit, as Jesus
promised, who was showing me, ultimately. The verse, "And as Moses lifted up
the Serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that
whoever believes in Him may have eternal life." Why would Satan through
Stewart show me that verse? Are you aware of what that verse is saying?

I remember some wrong things moving me to try to control my wife. It wasn't
that way at first but I did some weird things. Spying on her, sneaking around
like a rat. I don't know what caused me to fall pray to such a power thing.
It was probably my own lack of self worth and total lack of trust in God. I
think back in total dismay. I can't believe I did that. But, Yep, That was me.

Believe it or not, Mike (MM) in his despairing E-mail is right where God
wants us. Not the despair part, but the awareness that we have no control
over the whole shebang.

I want to call attention, not to the mind control stuff, such as many parent
do with their children these days, but to the reflected light, of the true
light. I can't ignore this. I did try to at one time but when I finally got
the connection I was angry at myself for denying it.

No, I have to be honest here. I did not look at Stewart as a shepherd. I saw
him as a teacher. One who was able to give clear and, you have to admit, in
the end, a right view of particular versus. We would have somehow been left
with the traditional teachings of Revelations and Mat 24 and the Trinity,
just to name a few. He taught me to work and reach into the very text and
draw out it's meaning. On my own. He didn't spoon feed me. No, he did not.
"Yes!," I said, "That is its meaning, Yes!" When I got the message I
glorified God, not Stewart. I never said, "Praise Stewart" I knew God was
involved.

Are you with me? Now do you know where I am coming from?

Probably not. I think Stewart, simply, is being brought to see, in public
exposure that he is like every body else. A hopeless sinner apart from the
Grace of God. And I know by revelation that every church will fail, but one.

Here is something else to think about. I will not be the one to build up a
wall of separation. What if there is true repentance. I want to be able to
rejoice that God is able to save even the worst of us. If there is a wall
between me and COBU it has been built by them. I am always hoping that some
miracle will happen and a brother will call me and ask for forgiveness for
the words of abuse. Like Jim Griener's plea.

To those who are battle worn, just being delivered from "The Church System,"
be at peace, it's over. Maybe you have fallen into wrong things. But believe
me it does not bother God nearly as much as it bothers us. I assure you, He
will prove Himself to be our only true Lord and Master.

Thanks Nancy for your patience as this was delivered. I am not going to be
messaging much longer because I know we each have to feel after God in our
own way. Any one wishing to E-mail me privately may do so. You know the
address.

Fred
--==========================================================================
From: imgalileo@webtv.net (rosie)

is stewie screwy?  probably....
is stewie ALL bad?  who can say....
is stewie dangerous?  potentially....

could i be another stewie?  if not for the grace of God....

glad i got out with little damage?  yep....
would i ever go back?  just to visit....

do i love stewie & co.?  sure....but not what they do!

all i can do is pray....until God shows me otherwise....

<3 rosie

life is a journey, not a destination.
=============================================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

In a message dated 7/12/99 1:16:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
HMWSAILIN@aol.com writes:

<<  Fred >>

 Hi Fred B, I hope you weren't implying that ST is in anyway, shape, or form
a
 light like John the Baptist is. In my estimation he is more like the devil
 using the Scriptures to tempt Christ with. When did we ever hear about any
 real teaching on Christ's Blood shed for us? Produce something in writing
 about that & other aspects of the Atonement. I know not any. The little
 gospel I actually learned was from reading tracts printed by other Christian
 organizations In the early days of the FF & from God's Spirit showing me
 things independently from ST.
 

                                        Herm Weiss >>

"And as moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness....."

Red Verses

OK, let's try this approach, if Jesus, who came from above knew it was
fitting to be baptized by John for the fulfilling of all righteousness, then
who is our John the Baptist? Who, in your life, can you come close to
comparing one who baptizes by water but not the spirit? Or did you bypass it
somehow?

I died in that water. Dead, dead, dead.

Fred Beggs
====================================================
Hi Fred B., where did you get this teaching from?  If you want allegorize
upon
allegorization then it might make sense to you such as Stewart is our John the
Baptist in that we needed him to teach us & prepare us to meet the real
Christ.
Something along the lines of you need the law to bring you to Christ. Is this
what you are trying to say? If not try to make it clear to us.
                As for Jesus saying permit it at this time; for in this way
it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. This is speaking of his
coming death & resurrection which
all believers are identified with (ROM 6:3-8). This is what baptism is a
symbol of &
is made clear there.
 

                                Herm Weiss
========================================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Herman,

Actually, I agree with you on leaving it is His hands. This shows your trust
in what God can do more than what you can do. Maybe in that we have
agreement? Yes?

Fred Beggs
==========================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

We don't hear too much about Joseph after a
>while. Likewise we are not going to hear too
>much of Stewart after a while.

Wanna bet?
============================

From: Ammobank4@aol.com

In a message dated 7/12/99 10:27:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
montoyam80@hotmail.com writes:

<< Fred, are you in anyway affiliated, associated, in connection with Neil
 Pendry and his group? I want a straight answer. >>

I don't know Neil and I won't be part of any group.

Fred
========================

From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Hi Frank, Please don't play head games, Like want to bet! We've been through
enough.

                                        Herm Weiss
==========================================
 

From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

Herm - when Frank says "wanna bet"  He means, I think,
Stewart ain't going away any time soon.  Joe Teklits still
drives all the way to Allentown just to hound Neil.
I believe they are gaining strength.  Their new business is much
more lucrative than the carpet cleaning.
They're in the money - and money is power - they will be
lengthening their stakes.  Atlanta, Texas...
However, "John", having witnessed Herman in person a few
weeks ago, coincidentally with Joe Teklits, Herman seems like a
very concerned shepherd snatching the sheep from the fire and
doesn't wait for explanations on either side and just goes to what
has to be done.  The young men that the COBU brothers were
witnessing to didn't know how to take it, but they did end up walking
away.
We've all got our own "take" on the situation.  And every one
of us that has been through that spiritual boot camp has earned the
right to whine.
================================
    Numbers 20: 10-12

Maybe there is more or something I am missing. I am open. Being wrong is my
past time.

Fred Beggs
===============================================
          From: JThomas945@aol.com

In a message dated 99-07-12 20:34:11 EDT, you write:

<< Numbers 20: 10-12

 Maybe there is more or something I am missing. I am open. Being wrong is my
 past time. >>
I read it and it does not say anything about Moses "taking credit".

JT
================================

Your right.
Fred Beggs
====================================
tpierron@Op.Net
writes:

<< But if one only hung out on the sidelines, those early 1970's Bible
 Studies were glamorous. >>

Tom,

Just my point. I think of Balaam. He was ready and willing to put a stumbling
block before Israel. Balaam was an apt prophet indeed. I was where Balaam was
at, at one time and I remember weeping to think I was about to curse/scold
the camps of Israel.

Glamorous sounds like show, it was deeper than that. Don't you remember
Stewart saying "No, No read the context!" That may be hurtful to some but I
saw it differently.

I just recently heard Kenneth Copland say that the "Water, Blood and the
spirit" are the Earth and the "Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" are the
Spirit. He just said it, now every one knows what it means, no need to apply
yourself. I wish I knew how he got there, do you know what I mean. Not a
reference, nothing.

Fred
============================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Hi Herman,

I'd be interested to see if you apply the same interpretation of those scriptures to some other
Christian teachers that come to mind, Martin Luther, Dietrich Bonhoffer, Jimmy Swaggart, and
Jimmy Baker, for instance.

I'd be slow to demonize people, Herman, it sounds too much like certain Bible teachers.

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
================================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Dear Herman,

I'm not playing any games at all, and am genuinely grieved that think so uncharitably of me.  I
am just trying to get to know you, and understand where you are coming from.  That you might
have been hurt in COBU is, of course, an understatement, but to wear your pain as a badge of
honor and a shield to keep your use (or misuse) of scripture from being tested by the light of
truth and reason is unbecoming of a Christian and a man.  It seems to me that if you feel free
to attack Stewart Traill as the devil incarnate without any trace of sensitivity for list
members who might think otherwise that you ought to be willing to state honestly on what basis
you believe that.  If it is on the basis of some interpretation of scripture, which you used to
justify the attack in your posting, then you are the one playing games by avoiding the question
I asked.  If on the other hand, it is on the basis of your hurt feelings, which is ok, then you
ought to be honest enough to say it and leave the scripture out of it.  It seems to me that to
simulteanously attack and whine at the same time is as vicious as it is cowardly.

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
=============================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com
>
>  Produce something in writing
> about that & other aspects of the Atonement. I know not any.

At the lofts he brought up Calvary a lot.
And that's how he always referred to it - as "Calvary".
And I remember saying the catechism for the week/month
"All my sins are forgiven and gone!"  As I sat in William West's
chair in 1989.  William smiled at this poor child...
-=============================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Hi Tom, yes the catch phrase Calvary, he said it, but never really explained
it. Where is his GREAT TEACHING on that subject. I never heard it even in the
days of the FF.
Lots & lots of figure systems but nothing about grace or the meaning of the
Atonement like Paul taught (1 COR 2:1-5). In his exhaustive study on John 6,
(in '74) he missed the sovereignity of God completely. Some great teacher! He
taught us to dispise the Body of Christ & say I don't need them game players
contrary to what
ROM 14 teaches, so that many ex-cobuers won't ever affliliate with an
organized
church. He poisoned them to the rest of Christ's Body were they might find
healing.
Think about it the wolf likes to go after the sheep that are alone. Tom this
was not
directed at you. Just venting about ST.
 

                                Herm Weiss
======================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Herm,

Forgive me for butting into your message to Tom. You are just proving the
whole point. He taught us about things, the figures etc. He taught us about
the salvation versus. Now, who was it that really taught you, in your heart,
that Jesus died to recompense us to God by pure Loving Grace????? Stewart?
NOOOOOOOO? Not Stewart. I have watched many Preachers preach on the subject,
but it was not the preacher who brought it to us. In one ear and out the
other. Until the Spirit of God reaches us we are not reached.

What is this about the organized church? Let's all build a church. Then you
can be there, I can be here but never meet. How do we meet Herm? By you
finally coming to see it my way or me finally coming to see it your way? We
will meet, I will say the word, at "Calvary." At our death. "And they took up
seven baskets full of broken pieces left over"
 

Fred Beggs
==========================
From: Symmetor@aol.com

Dear Mike: I do not know Fred Beggs, but I wish I did.

                      Neil
=========================

From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>

Oh Neil,  you too?

mm
=======================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Hi Frank, You have seemed to forgotten "the '89 Grace meeting tapes & 1 John
tapes where ST declares he was never saved until '89. If he wasn't saved as
he confessed then it follows that he in his teaching before that time WASN"T
speaking
by the Spirit of God but as the fruit that he bore shows he was speaking by
another spirit, one that was malevolent. You seem to be blind to the nature &
manipulations
of false teachers. You seem intelligent enough to add up all of what ST has
done to us socially, psychologically, spiritually, financially & add his own
words up=false teacher. But perhaps you aren't willing to face it & have your
ego bruised. I went through the same experience until the evidence I examined
became overwhelming. Be willing to say, I was fooled by him & I thought I was
too smart for that to happen & move on. As for most of those you mentioned
their deeds are confessed to & repented for the better unlike ST whose
feigned confession didn't change anything but made things worse in '89 & to
the present.

                        Herm Weiss
PS: I urge you to research the documents & tapes yourself as a true historian
would.
Also read 2 PET 2 especially vs.17 "springs without water for whom the black
darkness has been reserved." Some demonization don't you think?
==================================================
Herman, if Stewart can't be trusted, why do you
appeal to his his testimony against his earlier
teaching as proof of it?  If everything he says
is a lie from the father of lies, then surely his
renunication of his former teachings must be a
lie too.  Sounds inconsistent and illogical to
me.  If his teachings were of the devil from the
beginning, then the proof should be in the
puddin'.  I ask you to show me error in the
Resurrection Workbook.  I ask you to show me
error in the Purple Workbook.  I ask you to show
me error in the John 3 Workbook.  I ask you to
show me error in the Second Coming Workbook.  If
you only point to what is not in those workbooks,
or what he did not teach in John 4 or 6 studies,
that is not proof, at least not in logic (fallacy
of ignorance, or from lack of evidence). Where
did Stewart say "This is the meaning, and the
next time you go through it, there will be
nothing else."  In fact, he *often* (at least
when I was there and I have it in notes to prove
it) said that every time you go through the
scriptures there would be another level of
meaning, on infinitum.  That is why I referred to
the other teachers, Luther, Bonhoffer, Swaggert,
and Baker. All four men claimed to be Christians,
all four were very influential in the Christian
community, and all four taught error that brought
shame to the name of Jesus -- to a much larger
audience than that of Stewart Traill -- and their
major errors occured late in their ministry,
unlike what you say of ST.  When I ascribe
credibility to your insight I want to be assured
personally that I am accepting it because what
you are saying is true and not because I am
hearing it from a heavy older brother whom I once
held in great esteem.  But I cannot make that
determination on the basis of the evidence that I
have seen so far.  To be more direct, you say all
the evil in the fellowship was Stewart's fault,
he was a wolf from the beginning and we all dumb
sheep, but from my perspective, a whole lot of
history is being rewritten on this list, for I
assert that Stewart never acted without willing
accomplices, and that many of the sheep
considered (and some still do) themselves
shepards.  It reminds me of criminals who turn
state's evidence; you can never be sure whether
they are telling you the whole truth or not, or
how much they are using it to their own
advantage.  Or Nazi Germany; Hitler makes a nice
scapegoat, but he didn't act alone.  If I thought
Stewart's teachings were all error from the
beginning I would unsubscribe from this list and
run from everyone on it, for the same reasons
that I don't subscribe to Mormon's lists, JW's
lists, Roman Catholic's lists, atheists' lists,
etc.

Herman, it is the historian in me that urges me
forward even though I expect to be misunderstood.
I have based my life on the teachings that I
received in COBU, especially that of how to
approach the Bible, and have filtered all my
understanding of Christianity and theology
through that basis, and thus far I have not been
shown that that basis is inferior to foundations
laid by other Christians throughout history.  If
you want to disqualify ST on the basis of his
fruit, say it, but please let me know if you
apply the same standard to all Christians, and
whether you have ever met one that lives up to it.

Sincerely,
Frank

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
============================================
===============================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Frank how clever can you get. You want to twist all I said. I urge you to
take those
workbooks to any credible seminary & see if you can impress any one of them.
Hey if you want to believe ST without examining the evidence of the documents
&
testimonies of those that endured the abuse that's your business. Most of us
know better. I will not go round & round with you.

                                Herm Weiss
==========================================

From: JThomas945@aol.com

In a message dated 99-07-12 10:27:13 EDT, you write:
Fred , I think you wrote this:
<< Then all of them were not permitted, but after
 they all died their children were lead over through Joshua. The imperfect
 Moses was instrumental to their inheritance. Also, symbolically speaking, I
 died. That me that was into "Faith in Jesus" but what came out of my death
 was the work of God. >>

All of that generation were "not permitted" long before Moses's death.
Again, I would suggest that you start reading your Bible before you
"symbolically" try to interpret it.
====================================================================

From: JThomas945@aol.com

In a message dated 99-07-12 13:16:34 EDT, you write:
Fred, did you write this too?
<< But nevertheless, God somehow connected some things, helping me to
 understand
  why Stewart could speak so much truth yet not relate to what Jesus was
  declarative of.

  I like what Jesus said about John the Baptist, "... you were willing to
  rejoice in his light for a while.."  For a while.
   >>
If you think that ST spoke truth, then you need to be set free.  You search
the Scriptures..., no..., you don't even do that or you wouldn't speak such
nonsense.
You must be listening to another false teacher.

In Christ,
JT
====================================
From: JThomas945@aol.com

Fred, did you write this too?
<< But nevertheless, God somehow connected some things, helping me to
 understand
  why Stewart could speak so much truth yet not relate to what Jesus was
  declarative of.

  I like what Jesus said about John the Baptist, "... you were willing to
  rejoice in his light for a while.."  For a while.
   >>
If you think that ST spoke truth, then you need to be set free.  You search
the Scriptures..., no..., you don't even do that or you wouldn't speak such
nonsense.
You must be listening to another false teacher.

In Christ,
JT
=========================================
 From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Herman, it is you who twist what is said.  What
do you mean by writing, "Hey if you want to believe
ST without examining the evidence of the documents
& testimonies of those that endured the abuse
that's your business"?  I never said anything about wanting to believe Stewart, nor do I know
what you are talking about regarding not examining documents and testimonies.  Is there some
secret trove of testimonies and documents that have not appeared on this list or on MM's
website?  I have seen what I have been shown, and you forget, I was an eyewitness to some of the
abuse.  Charity leads me to say your mischaractization is a good example of erecting a straw
man; my reason wants to say you are a perverted liar and gameplayer.  You decide, for I don't
need to know, since you choose to ignore honest discourse.  You might think that your continual
harping on ST lets you off the hook regarding your own role in contributing to the abuse dished
up in COBU, but in reality it reveals the resentment and bitterness with which your soul is
deeply sated, which you flippantly heap upon anyone who questions your pronouncements.  I ask
you a final time, do you judge all Christian teachers and ministers by their fruits, or only ST?
Beware, lest the standard you apply to others be used to measure yourself.

To be honest, the Herman of my romanticized memory  was thoughtful and kind, not like the one
I've met on this list who has a special way of treating people -- the Herman who attacks and
demonizes people, calls them gameplayers, claims that he is misunderstood when disagreed with,
and dismisses out of hand any attempt at honest discussion as round & round.  I am tempted to
think that there must be some truth to what some on this list have asserted -- that you can take
the man away from ST, but you can't take ST out of the man -- for this new Herman I've been
introduced to sure reminds me of him.  The fact is, Herman, you realize that you are on weak
ground intellectually, and that's why you resort to name calling and appeals to emotion and mob
rule (more logical fallacies).  I *have* shown the workbooks to many educated seminarians and
religious studies professors, for that's the business I'm in, but more importantly, I've shown
them to mature Christians willing to examine them with a heart turned toward loving me and a
mind open to discovering truth for themselves, from where ever it might arise.  Of course, they
did not all agree with all the teachings, and they saw shortcomings as well as strengths.  But
none acted with the haughty contempt and disdain that you exhibit toward me for merely
suggesting that you support your fulminations with evidence.  For me, none of this has been a
matter of peddling the teachings of ST but rather to honestly discover how I should approach the
person of Jesus as revealed to us by the scriptures, and among the Christians who have examined
these writings for and with me there was understanding and charity even when there was
disagreement.  Wanting to know the real Jesus by His Spirit and according to His Word has led me
to intensively study the writings of Christians throughout the ages from the early church
fathers to Augustine to Luther, Calvin, and the Anabaptists to Jonathan Edwards, Cotton Mather,
John Wesley, William Jones to Spurgeon, Nee, and many others.  It has not been my experience
that any of these teachers taught from a position of having had "perfect" sight or declaring the
"whole" counsel of God (although some claimed it), but rather, they focused so intently on what
they considered important in their own day and to their own culture that they often ignored
subjects and doctrines that became crucial to Christians of other periods.  Many spirits have
gone into the world to be sure, and they obviously need to be tested, but one needs to test and
examine his own ways according to the word of God to see whether he is rightly judging those
spirits.
 

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
========================================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Frank, have you really really blinded yourself to the injustices heaped upon
us by
Stewart that you dare compare him to godly teachers. He used to torture us
day after day teaching us how to so-call love while at the same time by
example
beat us up. That's some godly teacher? Are you confused or what that you
can't see
it. So you read the loft notes have you & they don't sicken you. I suggest
you need help then.

                                Herm Weiss

PS: You imply in your letter that I abused brothers & sisters in COBU, yet
you
remember me as a kind brother. Which is it?
=====================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Again, you sling mud, brother, but don't deal with the issues.  Ask the 26,000 dead peasants how
godly Martin Luther was, or the Jews persecuted at his word.  Herman, can't you see that your
viewing Stewart and COBU in all black and white terms is just how Stewart wanted you to see it?

You know perfectly well that by abuse I mean you did not buck the system but did everything to
buttress it -- I suspect your suggestions that Stewart is the devil incarnate is a
Johnnie-come-lately doctrine that you developed in hindsight to justify your feeling bad about
being in the cult to begin with.  Yes, I do remember you as kind, but I have seen another side.

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
=========================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Fred B. Butting in. I just had a thought. Stewart asking for forgiveness.
Maybe learning a hard lesson like I did with my wife. Or maybe you have him
in Hell already. Shame on you.

Fred B.
====================================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Hi Frank, why exactly are you defending him like his lawyer would. What's in
this for
you. To hear you tell it he is a wonderful godly man who's made only a few
mistakes
instead of the Marjoe character that he really is. Or don't you believe that
either about him?

                                Herm Weiss
===========================================

From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Fred B. Let's get something straight. Where ST goes isn't up to me. However I
know
what the word of God says about false teachers & where they will go if they
don't repent. Now there is ample evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that ST
was & is
now a false teacher who also abuses his flock greatly. If he continues like
he is
doing now, he has the black darkness reserved for him. 2 PET 2:17. This is
not my
judgment against false teachers but God's. As for why do I expose ST for what
he is, I do so for those who think they need to go back to COBU to serve
Christ will be persuaded not to. Also that those who treasure ST's teaching
might see it as the garbage it is. And I don't apologize for thinking this
way.
 

                        Herm Weiss
============================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.comHerm,
So, maybe if Saul (Paul the Apostle) or the like got the message at the time
appointed, maybe there is hope. A lot of things aren't up to you. I never
heard Frank nor I ever say anything that may hint to encouraging others to go
back. My words say it clearly. I believe I should rebuke you but I won't. You
will come to regret the words you have spoken against Stewart and his
testimony. I have forgiving in advance all those who come against my
testimony. I could not have imagined nor chosen what God has made real to me
because I didn't know it existed until it was revealed. Now if I have no
control as to the time, then I may as well wait, cause its all in God's
hands. But you are being tested. I speak the truth in Christ but you say no
and set out to prove it. You may think God has appointed you to this duty of
making sure I demonize, satanize, and therefore loose the footing that God
has established in my life for the good of the church, but I assure you it is
not God doing it through you. We are not enemies, we are brethren, Me and
Frank and possibly others.God is testing us.....Fred Beggs
=========================================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Dear Herman,

I despair of communicating with you.  I shall say this as plainly as I can.  What I believe
about Stewart Traill is not relevant, because my postings to you have not been about him.  They
have been about you and your obsession with him, your apparent willingness to cling to
bitterness and resentment long after your relationship with him has ended.  It exhibits neither
Christian love nor good common sense.  It causes you to interpret the world through
Stewart-filtered lenses -- lenses that make you overlook the weaknesses and sins of those you
choose to label as godly while consigning to outer darkness those who don't measure up to your
undeclared standard.  This resentment leads you to misinterpret and mischaracterize the opinions
of those who might differ from you, tempting you to matter-of-factly castigate them.  It's
classic Traill; you are letting the seeds you say he planted in your life grow and multiply
despite your railings against him.  Ultimately, the insecurity that this resentment creates
threatens your confidence in Jesus' love for you and His wisdom in allowing you to go through
the ordeals of COBU.

You can deny that the bitterness and resentment is exists, if you want, and you will hear no
more from me, but please do not muddy the waters with any more talk about what I think of
Stewart.

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
=====================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
I had to read it twice.  I sort of "shut down" when it gets heated,
but when I re-read I got the sense it was trying to communicate.
Not to address anything there specifically, except that I get the gist
of what John is trying to say and agree.
A lot of us have done it - try and put Stewart in a box.
And then we all want to agree on the box.
Iris, it isn't as simple as something that's ancient history.
BTW professor Hill, we must see your credentials.
Iris - where were you for how long and when?
Who do you know.  We don't know you.  Do you know me?
(Tom Pierron)  I can't place you.
But many of us gave our heart and soul to Jesus and came
pretty close to equating that with what we thought to be His church,
our mother, and Stewart and the teachings got pretty ingrained and
it's much like, if not exactly: Post Traumatic Stress.
If you don't have any, God Bless you.
We still feel the pain and the nagging of that awful spirit.Bear with us.
=====================================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>
Surely the world is turned upside down when Tom Pierron sort of understands something that I
have written.  Pray that I will become more coherent.
Your reference to the box reminds me of a Bible study I was at one night back in the early '80s
after leaving COBU.  The brother was teaching about God's ways of doing things, and how they
very often don't fit into our understanding of how He ought to act.  The brother talked on very
eloquently for about an hour and lead up to his main point, "You see brothers and sisters, you
just can't put God in a box."   When he said it, John Box suddenly piped, "Oh yes you can!  He's
in me!"---    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
==========================================================
 

John A says: Now MM, THAT was some Walmart experience.  I too went to
     Walmart yesterday looking for

     Carol S replies: Walmart's are everywhere.even New Mexico!!...... if only I had invested in
     Walmart stock year ago... :)
 

     John S again:  Hate to disillusion you, bro., but I'd still go back if God told me
     too.  I remember a plain preacher saying once that he'd go in a bar looking for
     backsliding bro., if God wanted him to, and all the Christians were shocked
     with revulsion that the preacher would consider desecrating his own holiness,
     and the preacher said, I'd stick my arm in hell and let it get burned off if I
     thought I could save a soul by doing it.  Wickedness don't scare me, but fear
     does.
     Carol S again:  had to reply to this one...... brought back a funny memory....  a few years ago
     I attended a good ole southern Baptist church....  LOL :)   Anyway, one morning in Sunday
     School class we were talking about the scripture that says, "no to eat with such a one" .. and
     I mentioned that the day before I had dinner with two gay guys......  ROFLOL!!!  You should
     have seen the looks I got.   One is a relative of mine, and I'm not ashamed to admit it, I love
     him dearly.

          ----- Original Message -----

          .Mike M was here:
          I was
         >walking around the Walmart yesterday

==========================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

To hear the rest of this story please click on "buy now." For $29.99 plus
shipping you can hear the exciting ending to Fred's mysterious message. I am
a business man, you know. :) I could ask you the same thing. How did you get
that message out of, "It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Is
there more than one righteousness? Is John's testimony from God or From Man?

Fred Beggs

=================================================
  What is this about the organized church? Let's all build a church. Then you
 can be there, I can be here but never meet. How do we meet Herm? By you
 finally coming to see it my way or me finally coming to see it your way? We
 will meet, I will say the word, at "Calvary." At our death. "And they took
up
 seven baskets full of broken pieces left over"
 

 Fred Beggs >>
===============================================================
HMWSAILIN@aol.com writes:

<< Hi Fred B., Local organized bodies of believers in every part of the world
 which make up the body of Christ. We are commanded to be affiliated with one
 of these local bodies for worship, ministry of your gifts, For the
 edification of the saints, etc.
 HEB 10:25, EPN 4:11-13, 1 COR 14:26, 1 COR 16:1 note churches of Galatia
 means different local churches of Galatia. I was referring to local churches
 because
 a lot of us are so burnt off to church not only from what ST taught about
 them, but
 also the abuse we encountered in COBU burnt us off to almost any trust in
 authority
 especially other churches. Satan tried to use ST & the COBU experience like
a
 one, two punch. Satan would like to keep us from being effective in your
 Christian
 life & walk by keeping us lone ranger Christians. Believe me I went through
 this phase.

                                Herm Weiss

====================================================================================

Herm,

I understand the message about how many are so burnt they are afraid to trust
again.

There is a hint of cult in the rest of your message. Fact is, I don't need to
go anywhere to be part of the body of Christ. I know that by faith and I am
in fellowship with many that go to church on a regular basis. It is all
swallowed up in Grace.

Independently members, one of another, because we all partake of that same
bread. Not because I am fellowshipping with a gathering some place.

Forget the commandment to affiliate. Women are commanded to wear hats. If I
partake of the one same broken body, no matter where I am physically, I am
one with the body of Christ. In the reverse, If I am affiliated with a
certain group and partake of other leavens instead, I know nothing of being
in Christ.

I think it would be wise for those who just left COBU to not hide in a corner
some place and use, "I'm in Christ by faith" as an excuse not to be part of
life. My going to church for 10 or so years after COBU was very, I mean very
beneficial to me. I found out the pastor goes fishing and hunting. You mean
Jesus let's us do that? But the time came when I realized only a certain few
where allowed to participate in ministry. I went through the whole "There
must be something wrong we me" thing all over again. Actually, I did not have
a right to put my hands into the goings on. Just like, what right do I have
to tell my neighbor that he should eat dinner at 7:45pm. That is their home.
So I found out : That was their church. So have at it. Far be it from me to
come along and mess things up. Sitting in that pew, I remember even standing
up during Testimony time and saying the pew has become to me just like it
sounds. I was like a chick in an egg, I had to break out and experience the
greatness of God, not just what was in that little box of a church. I thought
I missed out on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and was convinced I was not
listening to "The Commandment" (as I was told) :  "Be Ye Filled......."

Herman, I am afraid the two commandments that really count I am not all that
good at. It does help me to be broken of some sort of points system with God.
Sometimes I say, just to check myself, "What if I were to sit next to this
brother in the kingdom for all of eternity?" Remember the mother asking Jesus
for her two sons? That is why I say we will meet at Calvary. "Jesus took the
bread, blessed it, and broke it and gave to the multitude" If I think that my
leaven of understanding is going to benefit the work of grace, I am mistaken.
Jesus said, "I have not come of my own accord..." Likewise, it is not my will
that the Father take this man and breaks him. I used to think Jesus on the
Cross was like some glorious war hero. Stripped Naked? I do not know to what
degree, but the message is clear.

I did notice you are not jumping all over me. In that I thank you.

Fred B
==========================================================================
 
 
 

Hi Fred B., no the message is not clear to me. Your train of thought appears
to me
to be mixed up. For example You seem to be using the figure of bread as
meaning a
man ( not Jesus Christ) which is nowhere in Scriptures except one place (NUM
14:9) & there it is used in not fearing the Canaanites for they're as easy to
defeat as eating
bread. Is "this man" mean ST or what? The figure of Christ as a warrior is
scriptural. I would suggest that you would stop reading the word through COBU
eyes (method of interpretation) before you get totally mixed up. I would
suggest reading the works of
Charles Spurgeon. Also Neil T. Anderson's book "Victory over the Darkness" An
excellent book on our identity in Christ. These books helped me a lot & they
may help you.

Herm Weiss
 

===========================================
 

JThomas945@aol.com writes:

<< All of that generation were "not permitted" long before Moses's death.
 Again, I would suggest that you start reading your Bible before you
 "symbolically" try to interpret it. >>
 

JT,

No, No, I was not implying actual interpretation of it's meaning but using
that account as a metaphor to my experience. You will see that is what I was
doing. One good thing about these messages, we can go back over.

I am sure if I read Shakespeare I would find a metaphor that would help. But
my back ground for communication is limited to what I have experienced. Helen
Keller, one of my most favorite people in the world, often referred to
scriptural accounts to add that special flair to what she was describing. One
of the few books I read from cover to cover, even the teachers notes, etc.
and saw so many parallels to my own experiences that I wept most of the time.
Sorry, I am a wimp these days. I find myself weeping at the drop of a hat. If
you ever read the teachers journal part of that book, there is a part where
the teacher was finger spelling the book, "Black Beauty," to Helen when all
of a sudden the teacher felt Helen's hands stop the teachers reading and
clasp tightly to her, when the teacher looked over Helen was crying
uncontrollably, then Helen began to explain to the teacher that when the
owner of the horse finally saw Black Beauty (I hope you can fill in the
blanks here) after some time,  she was hardy recognizable, the liveliness and
light in the eyes were gone. Helen said she feared that so many people have
been brought to that place like that of Black Beauty. I had to put down the
book and weep with her for some time.

You're doing that COBU thing. Trying to catch me.
Now your going to see this message as some sort of clever maneuver to get you
to side with me through the emotional message I just shared. Whatever...

Now Helen's teacher was a true teacher, not a stepping stone. A stepping
stone is something we are grateful was there to get us across, but why look
back? Just a stone in the creek.

FredB

==========================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com
JThomas945@aol.com writes:

<< If you think that ST spoke truth, then you need to be set free.  You
search
 the Scriptures..., no..., you don't even do that or you wouldn't speak such
 nonsense.
 You must be listening to another false teacher.

 In Christ,
 JT >>

The Jewish Scribes spoke truth. You are saying the same thing I was saying
but in an attacking way.  That, of course, is because you sense that I am
defending Stewart.

Truth is dead if it's just the letter. Believe me Jesus isn't going to have
bibles waiting for us when we go to be with him.

I hold to my words. Jesus said of this great John the Baptist that he's not
even in the Kingdom. He can't be. Then why have him around? He didn't even
teach his disciples about grace. I can back that up, by the way.

Am I saying Stewart is John the Baptist? No. Am I saying he is Elijah? No.
He's Stewart Traill. Just some poor slob like the rest of us. I am saying
that, to me, he was my John the Baptist. Once you see the "True light that
enlightens every man" you won't want to go back to living in some faded, lost
the glow, light. Thanks Stewart but Jesus is here. So long Stewart. Do you
see where I am coming from?

But now that I have Jesus, I am not limited to just being in the Kingdom. I
am free to walk beyond the Jordan.

Fred Beggs

============================================
>and saw so many parallels to my own experiences that I wept most of
>the time.
>Sorry, I am a wimp these days. I find myself weeping at the drop of a
>hat.... If you ever read the teachers journal part of that book, there
is a part
>where the teacher was finger spelling the book, "Black Beauty," to Helen

>when all of a sudden the teacher felt Helen's hands stop the teachers
reading
>and  I had to put down the book and weep with her for some time....
>
>You're doing that COBU thing. Trying to catch me.
>Now your going to see this message as some sort of clever maneuver to
>get you to side with me through the emotional message I just shared.
>Whatever...
>Fred B

From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>

Fred B - (you really *must* put the B on after your name since our Vorlon
friend was here first.  I am always Nancy C because there are other
Nancy's somewhere out there in x-boo land) Okay, amateur psychology time,
bro, lie down on the soft leather of (Maureen's) couch and let me ask you
a question - does this propensity to weeping seem to have coincided with
the discovery of this x-boo format?  I'm serious.  If so, you are most
definitely being called of God towards a healing.  He is somehow
reuniting us together for some purpose, and I believe it may be to pray
for the end of Cobu, to avoid the completion of the enemy's designs and
evil purposes.  It is only after being IN that we can fully understand
how to pray.  Some of these questions that are raised here may not be
fully solved.  And if we "win" against each other, in a way we lose.  So,
it does my heart good to see sometimes when you brothers can say, "no,
please don't misunderstand me"... or like you did: 'you're right."  "For
we all make many mistakes."  And that is an honest response (below) that
you would fear the old Cobu treatment of being ripped apart because you
self-disclosed, or showed the vulnerability of your feelings.  Somehow in
this healing we are having the scars reopened at times so God can clean
out our wounds and redress them.  It doesn't always feel good.  It even
feels confusing.  So welcome to the process Fred B, as you are relatively
new here.  Jesus wept.  He sure isn't a wimp.  There is great power in
the gentleness of tears, especially those of manly compassion.  Sometimes
the tears are a sign of Holy Spirit type cleansing.  You seem to be drawn
towards a teacher's calling, and that will require you to be teachable
yourself.  I think if you are drawn to teaching, if you keep your facts
straight, God could use you in that way here.  Nancy C.
======================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com

Nancy C.

Thanks for responding to my message with such reaching out. Actually, I
picked up the tears when about 10 years ago I choose to relate some of my
history to the church I was with. The Pastor graciously set apart some time
for me to speak. I began to speak about the time after I was out of the
church, with no where to go, the Lord saw to it that I always had a place to
sleep. Never on the streets nor in the bus or train stations nor in the
subways. I related about the time when a door to the loft of the place I
worked was somehow left open just enough that the latch wouldn't catch. I
began to break down as spoke, not that I had not wept in remorseful agony
over my hopeless condition, as I saw it. I said, "I was sorry, I am not
really an emotional person," but the pastor later said "You were always
emotional, it just never was free to express itself." How true. I was that
way before COBU. Seriously. Yes, Nancy C., I am new to the list. You can pray
for the break-up of COBU if that is the way you believe it should be. Then
don't be partial. Why stop there? Pray for the break-up of worldly
government, the decaying legal system, there is no end.

The whole mess is going to come crashing down. Maybe not in the way our own
minds might dream up. Sin is wrong right? Right. But if I had not known sin
then I would have not known mercy. Now sin is empowered by the Law, something
that God delivered. You know how Paul the Apostle laid it out. Sin slays me,
which is good.

There is a place we can be in safety with Christ, and sort of look into the
tribulations of it all, and watch as the flame does its job, without fear. I
have to let go of my controls on those whom I love so that God can deliver
them without destroying us. My children have the right to go to hell. So do I
for that matter. Sounds like cruel words but that is what I must realize. (I
don't mean wash your hands and don't speak about what has been made real to
you) The work of God is done through us not by us. Somehow through us just
believing through thick and thin will destroy Satan under our feet. God does
this through us, it is not us doing it.

I have to get going to work. Thanks for listening. And especially for
reaching out and seeing me as a person and not just a letter carrier.

Fred Beggs
================================================
 From: chrisdebblaise@juno.com

Dear Herman, Owen and all Calvanist interpreteres of COBU,
     I now have it.  I now know why you can't accept that Stewart was
ever saved and why you must color the things that did happen to fit your
mould that he was always not of God.  Once saved always saved!  You can't
accept that someone who was in God who knew God and loved God and enjoyed
the 'goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come' could
ever backslide, turn treacherous and then foment error and oppression!  I
debated this point personally with you, Herman, and it should be noted
that Pastor Gastor was on my side on this issue in our discussion of
7/10/99.  We debated that Armenianism was true but that we also believed
in Eternal Security for the believer, but that the believer could cast
away his own salvation as in the case of Stewart.  It is an established
documented fact that some sincere Christians turn treacherous, 'twist
like a deceitful bow', and then turn away from God hardening their
hearts, and sooner or later God hardens their hearts, and the ball game
is over. You say they and Stewart like them were never saved. You are
speaking in an eternal sense only.  We live here in time and see that God
lived in them.  The Old Testament is full of such accounts. Paul himself
alluded to such accounts of individuals in the New Testament that the end
of such is destruction. If our names can never be blotted out of the Book
of Life why did Jesus speak of that happening at all.  You fight so hard
to establish your unrealistic Calvanistic views on all of us.  Fred Beggs
recognises that Stewart was used for a while in his life. He was used for
a while in my life as well.  Yes, wrong things remained like cancer
eating away the good things because of unrepented for sin in his life,
but let's not be revisionists.  Going to your extreme does not really set
people free.  The truth sets them free and God heals them and if Stewart
was so completely demonic then getting free would be a piece of cake.
It would be like waking up from a bad dream. It is only because God used
him in the beginning like a burning and shining lamp that getting freed
now is so difficult.  I know you sincerely believe these things about
Calvanism, but there is another more balanced view. I will invite Pastor
Gastor to weigh in on these things as well, because he is much more
eloquent and educated on these matters than I.

                                Your in Christ,

                                                Chris B.
============================================\
From: Beverly Diehl <bevsfun@earthlink.net>

Just for fun, for Fred B. and the other newbies on the onelist

What I've noticed when somebody first comes on this list, at first
there is a great deal of sniffing of butts (Is he/she one of us?
Are you sure?  Who can vouch for him/her?  Oh, okay, I guess
he/she is an ex-boo then.)

Next, if/when the newcomer says something at all controversial,
there is much growling and showing of big fearsome teeth.

Finally, everyone's tail begins cautiously wagging, and even if
people are still in disagreement over certain issues, there's an
agreement to disagree without going for the throat (mostly).

While perhaps not the ideal way to treat one another, we have all
suffered much damage, seen and unseen, from our time in COBU.  If
we keep that in mind, and do our best to act with kindness and
patience (and never lose our sense of humor!), we'll get through.

Once again, welcome!  :-)

--

- Beverly
=========================================
From: IBM/CYRIX 6x86 Machine <cathy@ezonline.com>

LOL - I didn't even think of that - that people might not believe I am an
ex-booer.  This list is great, I am happy to be here, although as yet can
think of nothing controversial to say (you are all much more educated than
I am ....gave up the thought of college a long time ago, which is where I
would have been if not for FF/COBU).  No matter who's arguing about what,
this is still a healing place....
================================================================
From: "Mike Montoya" <montoyam80@hotmail.com>

Please tell me O observer of lists.....did this behavior occur before or

after we went 15 rounds with anonymity and then got the tag team. Look
back
at the mail. We didn't have this trust issue until Charlemagne insisted
on
having fun. by the way Bev...how tall are you?

mm
=========================================================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

Mickey!  Up from the [math] grave he arose!

Now why do you insist on baiting ol' Greybeard, especially when it was YOU that insisted that
his identity be released to the list?  Lookin' for a little fun?  Remember the
making-your-brother-drunk verse so you can gloating over his sin.  But I really don't know what
you talkin' about Willis, in regards to trust.

Tag team against a mob for some reason don't sound exactly fair to me, but I guess that's what
is to be expected from a bunch of ex-boos -- unity of thought reinforced by peer pressure and
hit-and-run tactics.

If you have a problem with trusting me, please email me off this list.

---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
===============================================
rom: "Mike Montoya" <montoyam80@hotmail.com>

You see how you are frank/john/greybeard/char/.???....look at the way you
heap
everyone together in that contemptable tone and "what you can expect
from a
bunch of xboos"...listen to that....for goodness sake
frank/john/char/grey.....why don't you find a better group of people who

aren't so disfunctional. I know that we "xboos" are not as smart or subtle
or accomplished etc etc. Why stick around? why do you stick around? because
youare entertained by us. We are a freak show to you.  You wanna talk about
trust? my goodness..we were talking off line and i confided in you and
when i made a mistake answering your email which was on the list, instead of
writing me and asking me why I wrote your name publicly you ran to the
list and defamed me as untrustworthy. So there's your heart,
john/frank/grey...there is where your at...so knock off your smarty
pants smugness...you have done plenty to disrupt this list just by your games.
And another thing....if your precious name was so important to keep hidden
from the freaks...why give it out now? would not your reason then be just as
applicable now? I guess you trusted us enough to allow your precious
identity to be made known....what a bunch of hog wash.....and you like
this don't you? you like me getting mad on the list...it's fun for you....great...
glad I could provide some amusement....just remember grey/frank/john....
I care. I am 100% here....always...and every insult,
and embarssment and mistake counts right here..in my heart...so when you
have your fun...just remember that this isn't a video game to kill your
boredom...there are real bullets in that gun.

mm
===========================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

I went to the list because you did, Mike, just as I am doing now after asking you to email me
privately.  But you want to know why?  When you made that stupid mistake it occurred to me that
you might have been leading me on all that time just to reveal my id. the moment you found it
out -- which you did, literally  -- as a way of gratifying some wicked desire of yours.  It was
the only way I could find out if you were that dumb or that vicious.  I remind you that I have
not taken anything privately to the list but have only reacted to what keeps coming up -- anger,
revenge, spite -- yes, dysfunctional behavior.  If I do sink to calling names why isn't
turnabout fair play?  I also remind you that you are the list manager.  You placed me on this
list without my consent, and kicked me off twice, and have promised how many times you wouldn't
do it again, but go ahead, make my day.  I dare you.  But you won't, 'cause you'll lose face by
showing again how good your word is.
---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
===============================================

From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>

p.s.
I renew my plea that we have this conversation off line.
---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
=============================================
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>

Last night Jim & I walked down to the seminary library here in our little
town, as we had to fax something there.  We met a neat young man from
Australia, a brother in Christ, who has a friend who is doing a paper on
the Jesus Movement in America in the 60s-70s.  Well, Jim and the guy got
talking, and we ended up givng the guy the site address on the Web.  This
is not the first person we have met who, by virtue of the great interest
in us "old Jesus Freaks" these days has wanted to visit the site.  I
think I wrote before of an artist guy who goes to Randy Clark's church
who ministers to the "Rainbow People" who are actually a "people group"
of "hippies" in the US.  We had something unique, a page in the history
of the Church Eternal.  It was a grand experiment for the Kingdom of God,
and we who had the vision of seeing people really get saved and living
victoriously for Jesus back at the beginning of Cobu know how we felt
that rush of glory in our veins, and there is no denying that, however
wicked ST was or is now.  I cannot deny that I have always been addicted
to that high ever since!
Nancy  C.
=====================================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
I think the issue of trust would have always been there no matter what.
If Jim Staton wanted on the list wouldn't we all go "Who?"
For me, when I wrote to J the A, I got tired of talking to a sister, ST,
or whoever who just shot back at me.  I wasn't going to let someone
without a face do that and I put a stop to it.
Now Frank, your tone had changed since coming out of the closet but
lo and behold...   "No, no, no - a little more humanity please!"  (TR)
There will always be the "sniffing each other out".
But does there have to be name calling and all this "game playing".
Just because Fred (B) says he got something out his exp. with COBU the
antennas go up and "no, no, no - we HATE Stewart here!"
Without going too long about it, the '70's had a lot of good stuff there.
And if your exposure to ST himself was minimal, all the better - though
the spirit of judgmentalism did pervade the rest of the church.  But in
the mean time you had constant fellowship, witnessing, Bible reading
and learning, prayer - exciting times and watching Jesus work.
We did not even know we were being abused by the leader.  Wecertainly know now.
If I had not returned in 1989 to get it out of my system once and for
all/good.  I don't know what I would be thinking now.  And especially
if I was asked by others.  We have gone through a lot together on this list.
 Someone who just parachutes in - let's be more hospitable and understanding.
Their experience is THEIR Experience and just as valid to them as yours
is to you.  Even if they don't know all the dirt.  Let us simply speak and
not strike twice.  That would be a mistake...
==================================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.comBev,
I'm sure this is true but I prefer to think of it as feeling things out
rather than the sniffing of butts. I have to admit, people are weird aren't we?
Fred Beggs
============================================
Actually, I noticed it when I first went on line - nobody knew who I was, and I
mentioned a few names of people I was 'in' with, and got a few responses, kind
of "*I* know So-and-So, and I never heard of *you*" which was okay; I think
after a while it was obvious that I was, in fact, an ex-boo.   I've noticed it
since then, almost every time someone new joins the list - each ex-boo is asked
to present his/her credentials, so to speak - when he/she was 'in', what
fellowships, who he/she knew.    Some of it is simply friendly interest, I
think, trying to see if people have experiences in common, but it also seems
(to me) that some of it is trying to see if this new person is 'safe.'
It's okay - we were all so badly burned and hurt, it is very, very hard to
extend trust to a stranger - especially a stranger with all the mind-games and
conditioning we received in that place.
Sorry if my analogy offended anyone - seemed like things have been getting a
little heated lately, I thought perhaps a little humor might help.
BTW, Mike, I'm 5'9" - in my bare feet - you don't *even* want to mess with me
in heels!LOL--- Beverly
======================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
are you a muscular 5'9" or a slender 5'9"?  lol.... how bout we just arm wrestle.
I thought what you described as just seeing the common expe. was more
accurate. I really did not see the other behavior until recently.
I am done with this end .  I am going to sleep and wake up and see if Aunty
Em and toto won't just hop up here on the bed and ......and you get me?mmm
===========================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com
Hi Fred, Please read the passages in the post I have written carefully, These
are the instructions of the Spirit of God not mine. If believers choose to
ignore them it is to their own hurt. There are no perfect churches & in this
life there are no guarantees
of never being hurt again even in churches of God that much is obvious inreading
the NT. For example MATT 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you go tell
his fault."... all this is done in the context of the local church. I could
go on & on with
passages, but I hope you get the point. I say these things to you to help
you. As I said before I went through this phase of "what can the church teach
me?" I don't
need to sit in a pew & listen to a sermon, I can get more out of reading &
studying
on my own. God wants us to assemble together for worship (HEB 10:25). Howmuch
plainer can the instructions in that verse be.   Herm Weiss
===================================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.com
Herm, I read it and it is just like you said. Leans greatly toward an
assembly of believers. If that is where I should be then may God open the
door. I hate the thought that Jesus spent his life for such an earthly view
of church. No, see I can't accept that. The Apostate church system no longer
exists. Shouldn't we be allowed to walk in perfect light. Let's see.... the
church, is the body of Christ. The body of Christ is a bunch of local
churches? Hmm.... For some reason I see Jesus as above that. Sort of like the
"read the word" directive. Now, somehow the requirement is on me. I have a
hard time swallowing that. Also the church today is missing something. It
just seems to me like a whole bunch of people making noise and saying, "The
Lord is speaking here," or "the Lord is moving among us," when God is just
waiting till we all tire out. Let me ask you this question: Would you go to
church if the bible says to, but in your heart you believe otherwise? Isn't
that how many of us were stuck between that disconnection in COBU? I have to
sort of look at the bible as a tool rather than my Lord. I give you this, by
reason of the bible, you have good reason to be loyal to the local church and
it's design. God will certainly bless those who adhere to the written word as
to the very word of God. But I cannot, even by reason of the Bible, walk in a
way that takes my peace away.
What is going to happen to me if I don't go? Careful. Where is Jesus that I
may gather with Him? It seems to me that while the whole country walks free
through out the whole USA we have allowed ourselves to get boxed up in little
houses. Is that was Jesus planned? We are not under persecution so as to hide
away. Don't you think its rather strange when someone says, "If want to hear
about God, I'll go to church?"
I know people that would be lost without the four walls. It is a familiar
thing and they are accustomed to it. For me to drag them out of that
familiarity would be like trampling the poor. Somehow, its all alright, if we
don't panic.
Fred Beggs
=============================================

From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>
>would not your reason then be just asapplicable now?p.p.s.
No, as I have told you at least three times already, I went to considerable trouble to
dissassociate my name from several websites to preclude the possibility of offending those whose
might would have been offended.  Plus, personally, I don't care anymore, whereas I used to.
---    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
=============================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
John/frank/disciple guy......first...don't dare me to take you off the list
Second, are you being nasty in response to my response to your response.? If
so..then I forgive you.
Third.....get your facts straight and stop painting this picture of Mad Mike
is yanking off and putting me on and yanking me off......I can see that you
are emotional and that your view might be clouded.  Have I treated anyone
else the way I have treated you? No... so I am not the crazy or stupid, or
dumb or vicious fellow you make me to be.
In a way this exchange is good for both of us and everyone watching. I have
the confidence that at least those who have talked with me on the phone and
have seen me in person can properly context my comments and actions.  There
are a few on your side of the ledger although I cannot recall if anyone has
actually talked to you on the phone or met you in person so you are Frank
Grizzard or Frank Oz or Frank Zappa(oops he's dead..sorry)...What does it
matter?  .....how can I trust you? and how could you love or like me after
all this? So stay on the list.....it's not my list.....it's everybody's list
Happy Birthday.....peace out
mmm
==========================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.comHermam,What????
Not a man!, just plain man...... Christ in us the hope of glory. Where are
you that you do not see the link between what Jesus lived, as being an
example of those who were to follow? This is clear and simple. Jesus said,
"beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" as opposed to what? No, No I can't
say no more. This is too simple. Actually it's too pure of a message. If we
are not being "broken," then all we have to give is us. Who wants that?
Anytime I dip my finger into His work I make it polluted. Oh yes we do
pollute, every last one of us. Sorry, Herman, when you want to talk about the
weather or something, I will be glad to talk. I am not going to do this thing.
I have learned if you can't agree why spend your whole life fighting when,
hey I might like the person if I weren't so self righteous. It takes two to
Tango so if you still want to dance then I'll just watch.
Imagine driving on the highway and all the traffic is moving about 1 inch
every 20 minutes. You can sit in your car all upset and frustrated and not
even realize your part of the problem.
Fred Beggs
===========================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>You know, Frank, you missed it, I think.
As I recall, Mike's message that "leaked" through just said
"You mean to tell me that...?"
And the response could've been,   "No, I'm just saying 'What if'?"
Like I had said a ways back - what if J the A was Barry Levin
or Marshall Beeber - or Frank Grizzard for that matter - what does
that mean to Mike (or at the time Fred also who only came on the scene
in the 1980's and was considered one to know the secret identity of brother X).
 So what verification would that be?
But even after the "leak" I wasn't sure. It wasn't a definite "Yes I am"
I really thought it was someone
closer to home (PA).  Can't we all just get along?
===========================================
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>
Do you remember when we sisters were supposed to ask the brothers to
"refresh our hearts in Christ" which meant "quick, read a verse and show
us you are zealous!"
But if I ask that now, "refresh our hearts in Christ, brothers" could we
just try to change the subject back to whatever is pure, whatever is
good, whatever is noble...
How about we make Wed. our fight-free truce day, so then we can pray in
the evening for those IN, then Thurs. it can go back to being Tuna Noodle
Casserole...Nancy C.
==========================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
Nancy?  you mentioned Tuna Noodle casserole......I have never heard anyone
on the planet except my mom talk about Tuna Noodle casserole. I say we
change the subject to Tuna Noodle Casserole. Who's with me??mm
===========================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>
Ah, if it only were so simple.  That message was the result of several weeks of off-line
messages, hence my need to know if he had set me up or not.  I really thought it was funny, but
I did need to know whether it was an accident or not, and I must admit in hindsight that it
struck a raw nerve in MM -- that of trust.  I'm sorry it did, for I want nothing more than to
get along with him.  In fact, until he fired that message to me earlier today, I had no
inclination that I was again on his hit list.  I saw all the darts toward me and Fred yesterday
and before, but thought they were in jest.---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
==========================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
Okay Fred B..you're Fred B......I checked myself..I fired off a letter to
Frank......let's leave the trust thing out right now.......I got a big
button in the middle of my chest labeled "Stew wasn't so bad" And Frank and
Fred keep pushing it.  I got a problem....I don't even know if I am right or
wrong..so I am taking myself away for a while. You guys thresh out the
various finer points. Maureen...thanks for speaking so clearly.
Nancy....thanks...Herman..you are doing what I cannot do...glad to be in the
body of Christ with you, John Thomas....well done.....a new sister is coming
on the list. I don't know her but she is safe(lol).....good bye
mm
============================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com
Fred, church does not have to be a building with pews in it. The early church
gathered together wherever they could in houses, catacombs, fields, etc. The
important thing is assembling together with other believers for the purpose
of worship, learning the word, & working together to use the gifts God has
given you.
EPN 4:11-16. No lone ranger Christians in the New Testament. I understandthat
there are apostate churches, but like Rick McLean said he finally found one
to hissense of trueness. So don't give up.    Herm Weiss
PS: I went to 5 different churchs before I found one to be a member of.
==========================================
From: "John Apostle" <japostle@angelfire.com>
No, Mike, no more rewriting history.  You did yank me off the list and put me back on, as you
and everyone else already knows.  Your reasons for it?  Paranoia, I guess.  Will you do it
again?  We'll see.  Are you a mad man?  I hope not, but you tell me.  I'm being nasty to you?
How so?  (I'm confused; I might would have considered that get-off-the-list message as nasty.)
Emotional?  Yes, I feel sad.  Trust?  It's a two-way street.  Healthy for the list?  Hardly.
Phone calls?  Duh.
Love you?  That's easy.  Like you?  That's even easier.  Feel sorry for you?  Bases loaded.
See, I told you all along that my identity wasn't the problem.  I told you over and over.  Now
you know who I am and yet you keep bringing it up.  I know who I am, and you know who I am, but
for some reason you don't want to let go of it as an issue because you want to be able to reject
my contention that Stewart Traill didn't pop out of the womb with a pitchfork in his hand and
because I believe that his teachings were not totally void of merit.  Say I'm callous about
ex-boos if you like, but then, I've got an excuse for my callousness, don't I: I am one.  But
like it or not, the mob mentality does rule on the list.  Those who want to cling to their
hatred and bitterness are legion; they foam at the mouth and swing their arms wildly, and they
don't even see that they are bruised and naked.  I can leave the list if it will make you feel
better, but the issues I have spoken to won't be leaving with me.---
    Visit John Apostle's Website on the WWW:
    https://www.angelfire.com/ny/japostle/
============================================
>Hi Rick, what did ST teach us about why we should minister the gospel. Fear
>if you didn't do so you couldn't be right with Jesus. For example I was told
>by him in Schenectady as fellowship leader I was backslidden because my
>fellowship didn't
>produce any converts for a month in January & little more in through April.
>Because I looked up to ST as a teacher come from God I believe him even
>though something inside said otherwise.
>My wife bought St's line also & disrespected me to the point of telling me on
>our anniversary that she no longer wanted to be married to me.  She was in
>love with a guy who recently came from another fellowship & the two of them
>were together while I was working during the day. When I called ST to let him
>know what was happening, He blamed me for her attitude. How can she respect
>you went your relationship with Jesus is a mess? Never even spoke to her &
>him at all! I went into a depression after that & she refused to sleep in the
>same bed room with me. I would go to work, come home & stay in my room while
>she ran the fellowship.  I used to go to the center meetings in Syracuse
>where I was vilified by Primo & the brethren saying I was not sincere in
>repenting of my so-called backsliding, all required under ST's direction.
>Eventually the guy involved with my wife confessed his sin but ST
>never apologized for his not taking action & instead shipped me down to Chris
>Blaise in Richmond to be rehabilitated. This on the orders of the wonderful
>teacher come from God. LOL!!! There are many such stories about our wonderful
>shepherd.
>
>    Herm Weiss
=========================================================
>

Herm,  I am not disputing the terrible mess that Stewart helped
cause in our lives. WE followed a king (note; small k king) and
reaped much unhappiness. All I am saying is that I don't think
I would have gotten saved in the kind of church I'm in now.
Jesus used Stewart despite his many shortcomings (which became
painfully apparent) to get me started. I needed the lure of
the" mysterious deep stuff" until I got to a place where I
could walk in obedience.
I am learning about the really deep stuff that abides within
everyday life. Listening to the voice of the Lord. NOT man.
By no means would I council anyone to go there to fellowship.
I do not excuse Stewart from the many horrible things he
perpetrated upon us as he abused his power. He got power
mad, but I would be a liar if I said Jesus did not use that
situation to make me who I am today.
I learned about a Christian life that does not compromise.
I now know that I will probably never get to that point, but
I aspire to it. You are right; that principle was misused to
condemn. I am glad that I have come to a point where I expect
more from myself without condemning myself when I fall short.
Stewart Traill was never what we thought he was, but it is not
an all or nothing proposition. I love you in the Lord, Herman.
I grieve with you about the wrongs that were done, but I
must rejoice that I was able to share Christ with you in those days
despite the imperfections of our "teacher".

Jesus, no matter what!

Rick
===========================
HEY FRED B..,I can understand your reluctance to want to be a part of
a local body. You have to suffer all kinds of carnival
christianity. At least on the surface. Funny thing is though,
that Jesus wants you to contribute there. It is really humbling,
especially when someone ends up ministering to you DEEPLY that
you thought (just couldn't help yourself) was a clown, a joke,
a happy,goofy caracature of a Christian. You begin to realize
that a lot of that all or nothing isolationist stuff that ST
promoted is egotistical bunk. Should you try to be like everyone
else? Absolutely not! But be careful Fred when you put yourself
on a self-righteous (beenthere, done that)pedestal cause the
fall can stun you. Jesus was beyond measurement in how far
beyond us He was and yet He fellowshipped with us. Therefore,
ought we not to fellowship with the body (even if they aren't
where we want them to be)? Love you Fred, don't cut yourself
off from a chance for new growth, pray for the Lord to open
a door and see what happens. Can't hurt, might help!
Jesus, no matter what!
Rick MacLean
==========================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com
Hi Rick, is he a false teacher in accordance with the evidence? Or is he
someone to look up to & admire as a godly teacher? How can we know? The only
way to find out is to search out what the Bible says how godly teachers &
pastor(shepherds) should be. Compare him & his actions to that. That's the
question we must answer for ourselves. Then call him for what he is instead
of some romantic figure we have a warm spot in our hearts for.    Herm Weiss
=======================================
Michael old scout,You arouse vivid memories by your challenge. When I was
in the Lynn, MA fellowship with Dave Mann and George Staczyk
we were very poor. So poor that we wrapped aluminum foil around
the back of an electric hot plate for heat because we ran out
of oil. So poor that for about a week we had rice with ketchup
and oregano and tried to believe it was spaghetti.
But finally our ship came in. We got some money and went to
the good old Star Market and bought Kraft macaroni and cheese
and two cans of tuna fish(poor man's tuna noodle casseroule)and a
can of peas. I don't know if anything ever tasted better than that meal!
Rick
============================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com
Thanks Rick, You put it much better than I did. I'm much to blunt.
===========================================
From: "Michael Montoya" <montoya@integrityonline1.com>
Rick...I love you man....Praise God for your memory ......my mom used to
crush up potato chips and cover the top of the casserole with the bits.

mm
==============================
From: IBM/CYRIX 6x86 Machine <cathy@ezonline.com>
Ah, the memories are returning back quite vividly (at last, after all these
years):   The last meal I ever had before tiptoeing out of the Waterbury
fellowship in the wee hours of the morning to catch the bus was....FriedBread.
Cathy B.
========================================
From: "Diana Clarke" <fiddleydee@hotmail.com>

Only if you add cornbread to the menu!
=======================================
From: "Diana Clarke" <fiddleydee@hotmail.com>

Hello Tom,
Your excellent points are well taken.
Ever hear that "ignorance is bliss"?..While we may have been ignorant to ST
and his designs, it did not overcome our joy and inspiration from seeing the
real Jesus in our lives.
==========================================
<< Jesus, no matter what! >>Rick M.
I appreciate what you said. I did find the part about the irrelevant, David
the shepherd, type people to be true. I also found out when I was not trying
to be used of the Lord is when I was used in a way that I couldn't take
credit for it. :) God is good isn't He?
My testimony is not received well by the churches because it implies that
they are wrong. I never say that, nor did I ever say that, but there is this
protection thing over what they have built. The impression is that I will
make the members think its OK not to go to church, therefore I am often
halted before I finish my testimony. Sometimes quite rudely. I almost fell
into the Balaam error to curse them etc. But God stopped me and when I read
Balaam's story I wept. I knew his heart when he said these words: Numbers 24:3-9
From this point forward, I decided to walk in my testimony, in hopes that
others may inquire, as they do, and they will see that I am not out of
fellowship. I may be out of agreement, but fellowship, really, is Christ
working through the body.
That body is not limited to the physical gathering places. Gathering places
have there place. This is a physical gathering place, in a way, but soon, if
we are not careful we will idolize it. Such are the churches. The church
order is God to many but not to me. I love the Pastor and brethren of my
previous church. I don't like to be alone but I would be just as alone in
church if my testimony is not received because they want my presence but not
my life.
Fred Beggs
====================================
From: Ammobank4@aol.comHerm,
First, before I forget, I used the wrong word. The word is Apostolic, as
describing what the apostles did and believed. Sorry about that. I was
laughing at myself earlier today for coming up with that word. Maybe it is an
appropriate word to use (I need to check the dictionary) , I don't know, but
it sounds like some sort of gland; like the Apostate gland. LOL
I like what you said about using the gifts. That I could relate to and there
are few churches that recognize all gifts. There is one church that, appears
to me, to be the one true church. "What is the house that you would build for
me?" If a man could make a human body and give it life then I would trust in
the church type thing that is available to us today, but since no man can, I
firmly believe that the body of Christ exists purely by faith. Maybe its
because I have a vivid imagination that I perceive something else exists just
above the gathering places. I don't think it just imagination though. There
is a link between what is physical and what is spiritual. First the physical
and then the spritual. (I know, sounds like Stewart, but still true) The
original temple existed in Jerusalem, physically, but the true temple is not
physical but spiritual, "For such the Father seeks to worship Him." Now if
there is error on my part, it is in the translational interpretation of
church. "Church" was not the word they used in the new testament when it was
written but rather, "assembly." Church may mean physical place of gathering,
but even if it did, I still say gathering with Christ in its most truest
sense is not physical. "That where I am, you may be also." He did not say,
"where I will be;" Jesus meant He was already there.
I would not have said all this to you, Hem, if it weren't for the list. If it
was just me and you I wouldn't waste my time. Words don't move a man, but
revelation will. That doesn't mean what it sounds like but you are sure to
attack me.
Fred Beggs
====================================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>
I had some corn bread a couple weeks ago.  I don't know about your
tastes, but this was warm and moist and melted in my mouth.
The taste of butter.  Mmm.  It was from Boston Market.
Whenever I go there, I always, without fail get either a 1/4 or 1/2
chicken dark, with corn and red potatoes.(corn bread always on the side...)
Who's hungry?
=======================================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

<<PART OF A POST BY FRANK G.

<< causes you to interpret the world through Stewart-filtered lenses --
lenses that make you overlook the weaknesses and sins of those you choose to
label as godly while consigning to outer darkness those who don't measure up
to your undeclared standard.  This resentment leads you to misinterpret and
mischaracterize the opinions of those who might differ from you, tempting you
to matter-of-factly castigate them.  It's classic Traill; you are letting the
seeds you say he planted in your life grow and multiply despite your railings
against him.  Ultimately, the insecurity that this resentment creates
threatens your confidence in Jesus' love for you and His wisdom in allowing
you to go through the ordeals of COBU. >>

Frank, Who did I consign to the outer darkness? Better read my email again.
Who
else did I consign anywhere? Don't you know what THOSE mean? It's a PLURAL
word. Here is my original email. Note the words, "IF HE CONTINUES LIKE HE IS
DOING NOW, THEN HE HAS THE BLACK DARKNESS RESERVED FOR HIM ACCORDING TO 2 PET
2:17. WAS I WRONG IN SAYING "IF"? I GUESS IT MUST
HAVE BEEN  INSECURITY ON PAUL'S PART WHEN HE RESENTED THE JUDAIZERS FOR
MISLEADING THE GALATIANS. HE MUST OF HAD NO CONFIDENCE IN JESUS'S LOVE &
WISDOM WHEN HE RAILED AGAINST THEM
BY SAYING, "WOULD THAT THOSE WHO ARE TROUBLING YOU WOULD EVEN
MUTILATE THEMSELVES." (GAL 5;12) OR LET HIM BE ACCURSED(GAL 1:8). DON'T MUDDY
THE WATERS, FRANK!

Herm Weiss

============================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com
>
> . Forgive me if I have offended anyone but I felt it needed to be said.
> Frank, when some like the above mentioned persons come on to this site & see
> a person like you with a Ph.D. defending an abuser like ST, how does that
> contribute to their healing?

Fred just parachuted in.  He doesn't associate COBU at all with abuse
and all the rest of the dirt.  He got something good out of it and moved
on - he's not advocating others to go back.  He left himself.

> Has he not lead his flock
> astray by his teaching & example?

Fred hasn't been around for 20 years.  (Look, I'm talking for
Fred - do you agree with this Fred?)

> Why aren't you outraged at what is still
> going on there?

Why aren't you outraged that the British still occupy Ireland?
Or that the liberal media backs a cop killer?  Or - the list could
go on.  You are outraged at ST and COBU.  So am I, and I will do
what I can to help anyone escape.  Fred has turned the page.

> I'm sorry I know too much of what went on there & I think any
> decent human being would be outraged knowing the things that I & others are
> aware of

Once again, Fred isn't aware of the dirt or abuse.  I was ignorant of
the tyranny in the 1970's myself.

> & I resent your analysis of me developing traits like ST.

I don't see it either.  Maybe just the anger...

> Again I
> ask you why are you defending him?

Everyone has an explanation and a reason for doing what do.
Jesus said don't just lest you be judged, for with...  you know the
rest of it.
There is calling an ace an ace.  But in this case
there are so many things to be thrown in and taken out of the mix.
I think the straw that broke the camel's back for me was hearing about
Stewart's abuse of Skip.  I had my theories and stories before, but
that did it.
Let Fred digest some of the dirt if he so chooses and maybe he will join
you in your hatred.  Right now he seems to be content to leave it in God's
hands.
(Am I assuming too much Fred?)
Not that I don't think your anger isn't justified, either, Herm.
But don't let it eat you and don't heap it on Fred.  Direct in the positive
influence of what can we do about it.
Prayer is one thing - hey, it's almost time.
And I know you have other ideas.  God will bring things to fruition in
their due time.

=====================================================
From: HMWSAILIN@aol.com

Fred, I feel sorry for you for I know who did this to you. I'll keep you in
my prayers.
 

Herm Weiss