These are not meant to be trick questions.  I am trying to reason out
what others have said, and even what I think on some points.  So please
bear with me; I'm not trying to just be "right."

Okay, so original sin means when we are born into this fallen creation,
and so we have John & Charles Wesley's "bent" to sinning.  And so we do
sin from the beginning of our lives, when, say we reach the age of
accountablity we become aware of this.  So, then we choose, eventually,
and we get born again on the street with somebody praying the sinner's
prayer with us, and we read the Bible and do what we are supposed to do,
and we grow, and our prayers are answered.

Then, does "mortal sin" mean that which would take us away from our
Christian faith, as in choosing to reject God, where we backslide, and
wither and die, (attitudinal),

or does it mean a sinful action which by definition means we can never
repent and get forgiven, because it will cause our death forever,  (so
there is no hope),

or does it mean a sinful action which possibly could cause our physical
death,

or does it mean a sinful action that could cause the spiritual death of
others, (say, being such a bad example that they backslide),

or a sinful action that could cause the physical death of others (as in
that Mom who drowned her own kids - could she repent later?)

It still seems to me that of all of the above, only rejection of God's
Holy Spirit's calling to repentance is the unpardonable, not because God
doesn't want to forgive sin, just because it is His nature that He
"can't."  The original sin can be overcome by getting saved.  So, does
the commission of mortal sin only apply to Christians?  If Jesus
swallowed up Death in Victory, doesn't that include that which causes
mortality?

Now really, I am trying to stay teachable on this.  This is the way I am
seeing it, and I believe God is showing me some stuff on this as I
reflect.  I'm not even sure we can "solve" it here.  Nancy C.
================================
From: "Owen D Camp" <DOCOC@prodigy.net>

From:  Owen
        Dear Nancy
       We went over this a few months ago when I challenged anyone to find
the concept of "age of accountability" in the Bible.  Tom tried, but he
couldn't show it.  We are born spiritually DEAD!  Corpses can't help
themselves.  They need new life.  So God has to give us the gift of faith in
order for us to believe and be saved.
    David said we "were conceived in iniquity" (meaning that we were
infected with sin since conception NOT that conception is sinful).  NO ONE
is righteous! As in Adam all sinned.   So not hearing the gospel will not
get anyone off on judgement day.
        Unless God wrote our name in the book of life before the creation of
the world, we will refuse the message of the gospel no matter how well
presented or how often.  (We may hide out in church and fool some of the
people all the time but....)  Jn 6:44.

                    And by my Lord I'll get there
         Owen Camp    Bronx NY    dococ@prodigy.net
============================================
From: JThomas945@aol.com

To all:
I agree wholeheartedly with Owen on this one.  I believe that the Calvinist
position presents a clear consistant explanation of many theological matters.
Owen's position on being born dead is the explanation of "Total Depravity",
the "T" in "tulip".
I like to use the example of Lazarus, when he was in the tomb.  How did he
hear Jesus calling and how could he respond?  This is like us "dead in ou
sins and trespasses" but now made alive by the sovereign will of God, because
He loved us from the foundations of the world.

In Christ,
JT
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: James D Coogan <cooganjd@juno.com>

Owen< I appreciate that you try to logic it out for me.  The point about
age of accountability isn't so important in what I was trying to ask as
the part about Mortal Sin.  Yes, I agree we are all dead in sin.  The
part about being chosen is awesome, and hard to understand because I lean
more to free will than predestination, but they are kind of like a
both/and rather than an either/or.  Where does one leave off and the
other begin?  And if you are supposedly chosen, but act sinfully all the
time I can't go for the "once, always" route.  It just is too illogical
to my experience of seeing people seem so very, very changed and powerful
in God, then to backslide.  How can you explain that?  But anyway, don't
try to - I am asking more about Mortal Sin.  Thanks. Nancy C.
=============================================
From: Symmetor@aol.com

          Lazarus is clearly the image of a backslider in his sickness and
spiritual expiry. In the Gospel there are no images of the conversion by
which we embark upon the faith in the first place. The image of that
conversion is at Genesis 1:1.
===============================================
From: HMWSAILING@aol.com

Neil, no images in gospel of conversion? Read MATT 13.

Herm
============================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: Symmetor@aol.com
>
>           Lazarus is clearly the image of a backslider

to you.  The Word is living and active.
Someday this may be 'clearly' quickened to you another way.

===============================================
From: Symmetor@aol.com

Dear Herman: Well? Where's the image of initial conversion? Why do you
simplists not see that Jesus's whole ministry is an image of something that
comes and presents itself to a people of God already in place and long
established? The initiations were primeval. The Gospel has to do with the end
of what was initiated.
 
                    Neil
========================================
From: HMWSAILING@aol.com

Neil, think about who the Lord's audience was when he spoke his words. In 1
COR
1:27-28 it says that God called mostly people who were not wise according to
the flesh. That is mostly slaves, & common folk at the time when the letter
was written.
Receiving the Holy Spirit doesn't  give you a degree in academia. Jesus spoke
in plain words to convey his message. It makes one think that the high minded
words you use are to cover up the lack of substance in your message. Just an
observation (1COR 2:1-2)

Herm

PS: The image of the Pearl of great price which a man found & sold all that
he had to buy that Pearl & also the image of the treasure hidden in the field
are excellent examples of what happens to you when God converts you (MATT
13:44-46)
===========================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: HMWSAILING@aol.com
>
> Neil, think about who the Lord's audience was when he spoke his words. In 1
> COR
> 1:27-28 it says that God called mostly people who were not wise according to
> the flesh. That is mostly slaves, & common folk at the time when the letter
> was written.
> Receiving the Holy Spirit doesn't  give you a degree in academia.

Much the opposite.  It is the low that are lifted up.  Those "despised" and
rejected of men.  No one is impressed with $100 words.  In Neil's context,
sorry to say they are $3 words.  He is not trying to communicate, he's trying
to intimidate.  I see right through and therefore respond, just in case there
are those who are intimidated.  They need not be.  It's easy to reply to
his words.  I have known this attitude for so long, aye, I was one myself.
Jesus saved me.

> Jesus spoke
> in plain words to convey his message. It makes one think that the high minded
> words you use are to cover up the lack of substance in your message. Just an
> observation (1COR 2:1-2)

Duh!
Jesus spoke about flowers and sheep.  Something everyone knew and understood.
 

> Herm
>
> PS: The image of the Pearl of great price which a man found & sold all that
> he had to buy that Pearl & also the image of the treasure hidden in the field
> are excellent examples of what happens to you when God converts you (MATT
> 13:44-46)
>

Don't know what you're aiming at, here, Herm, but I would say Neil is still
grinding on the sand.
You know, they say we leave the meaning out of Christmas.  Well I think we
leave the meaning out of the 4th of July also.  Sharpton and the Mumia people
have a right to speak out.  We have freedom of speech.  However, they are
not allowed to inconvenience the rest of us.  That's civil disobedience.
Any one can protest, but they can't terrorize us.
But that's what our boys died for - so they could pout in freedom.
When I got home from work tonight, after savoring the Phillies win over the Cubs
on ESPN, I channel surfed to "Saving Private Ryan"  Yes, it's already on TV.
We have HBO and other stuff.  I don't have it myself personally.  I think it's
obscene to "pay" for TV.  But the set I was watching was "wired".
When I saw Private Ryan in the theaters, as I shared before, I was in some
type of shock for a couple days.  I always wondered what TV would be like.
I knew what I was in for in the theaters but was still overtaken - the digital
sound and all.  The bullets flying and "tinking" off metal.  On TV I noticed the
flash of bullets.  I hadn't noticed that before.
Watch the movie and see what our country is made of.  See it all.
Tom Hanks, and all the others, they are real actors.  You go for it hook,
line, and sinker.  You're not thinking "Big" (one of Tom Hank's movies) or
anything at all like that.  They are absolutely believable.  Speilberg had them
go through some type of boot camp.  These millionaire actors balked at that
(Matt Damon and maybe Ted Danson)  Spielberg told them forget the movie.
They did it.  And you can see it.
When I saw it on the big screen, it was like 5 minutes went by.  It was almost
three hours!  I was numb.  I saw a local celebrity, Rollye James - and I usually
leave celebrities to their lives and not bother them, but I saw Rollye, and I
said
"Hi Rollye"  I asked her if she had seen "Saving Private Ryan" and she said no.
Later when I got home, I knew that was a stupid question - she doesn't watch
movies.  I know that from listening to her on the radio.
Anyway, when you watch something again, you see things you didn't see before.
This time I waited for the credits.
Oy, I was going to say something that might spoil the picture for you, if you
haven't
seen it.  Far be it from me to do that.
When I was a teenager, a "friend" of mine told me about the Planet of the Apes
movie.
He said at the end they see the Statue of Liberty.  Well thanks a lot.  Instead
of hitting
me like a ton of bricks I watched the movie wondering "when do I see the statue
of
liberty?
I'll just say this:  As the movie started, there's an old man walking with his
family
I almost yelled out in the theater "That's Normandy!" as I had been on that very
path they were walking in 1996.
I think there's a lot of BS going on in this country.  But be that as it may, we
are still the best country on earth.  We are the place everyone looking for a
better
life moves to.
I was afraid of the Viet Nam draft.
Carol's husband served - and has suffered for it.
I don't know what to say.
What we owe these men - I cannot put into words...
Thank you
============================================
From: Tom Pierron <tpierron@Op.Net>

> From: Symmetor@aol.com
>
> Dear Herman: Well? Where's the image of initial conversion? Why do you
> simplists not see that Jesus's whole ministry is an image of something that
> comes and presents itself to a people of God already in place and long
> established? The initiations were primeval. The Gospel has to do with the end
> of what was initiated.

The simplist view is better.  Have a peek:
For the first thirty years of his life Jesus was basically a mere observer.
He gave at the proper time when he had plenty to give.
If you don't have anything to give, or it's not a blessing,
what then is it?
When I got saved I got everything I needed.  Jesus Christ.
Anything more is details.  Jesus is my savior, Jesus died for my sins.
He is the Author and Finisher of my faith.  And I would dare say
he has something to do with the in-between.
The gospel is the life of Jesus Christ.  What I want to know about
is Christ.  That's what Paul wrote about after being a believer for
about two decades "that I may know him".

=================================================
From: HMWSAILING@aol.com

Hi Tom, The point is to get Neil to speak plainly & to the point. Neil speaks
as though he were addressing The PH.D club or something. I did not infer by
my post
that we are just common folk here if that's what offends you. I was just
answering
Neil's assertion that the gospel contains no images of conversion in it.
 
 

Herm
PS: I also have AOL & there isn't a way that I've discovered to include the
message
you're responding to, except by copy & paste.

===========================================