ID: Things seem to be going well for Averse Sefira...Label negotiations, BC Rich endorsements...what's the current status?
Sanguine: We have just signed a deal with Arrogare Records and we will be putting out "Homecoming's March", our debut CD, in July.
Wrath: We are going to debut it at the Milwaukee Metalfest. That will also be the official debut of our new drummer, Gregg Garbach...

ID: Cool. What can we expect from the new CD?
Wrath: Professional work with a cult edge. A complete CD booklet with original artwork, seven new tracks that are fast and cruel.
Sanguine: The new songs send the listener headfirst into our overarching concept that we operate the band within. The new material buries what we had done on "Blasphomet Sin Abset". I think people will be pleased.

ID: Speaking of "Blasphomet Sin Abset"...I love the story behind that. What will the story be this time around? Or will you be doing a storyline?
Sanguine: All the songs that we will forever do take place within a story arc that deals with a group of angels that we have extrapolated out of the Q'Aballah, the Sefiroth, that we use as vehicles for tales of mythic irony. Essentially, these angels are extracelestial beings that have come to humanity's celestial plane seeking solitude. They have gotten embroiled in a constant conflict over the psyche of man. What we are working from is the idea that in the past man made God, but the being that people refer to as God now was not happy with that arrangement, seized power, and twisted human thought to believe the opposite.

ID: Okay, can I ask a question without sounding too stupid...What is the Q'Aballah?
Sanguine: An ancient esoteric Hebrew text which later found its way to being the backbone of "Western Magick". Namely through groups like The Golden Dawn.

ID: Would you relate the story behind the name Averse Sefira?
Sanguine: In the Q'Aballah there are 20 angels, ten holy and ten unholy, emanating out of the right and left hands of God, respectively. They hold sway over abstract concepts of humanity like beauty, strength, dominion, crown, victory, and mercy. For our purposes we have taken them out of that text and turned them into 20 beings which are not good or evil per se, rather balancing shades of grey. The choice of the name is one of those lucky accidents in life that don't seem significant at the time, but end up being very auspicious.

ID: I wasn't going to ask (because everyone seems to), but...are you or aren't you Satanists?
Wrath: Well, yes. We are Satanists. We do not have any affiliation with the Church of Satan, we don't have rituals or harm anyone or any animals, and we are not criminals. Basically, we follow a path of darkness that "normal" people and handwringing Christians would find upsetting on principle. That's, overall, the extent of it.

ID: You used drum machines on your demo. When you recorded the full-length last fall, did you again use drum machines or was there a live drummer involved?
Wrath: We had arrangements for a live drummer...

ID: Might I ask whom?
Wrath: Nobody of note. Just a local drummer from Texas (where we lived at the time).

ID: So you have a drummer involved now, right?
Wrath: Yeah. He also plays in a band called Night Conquers Day here in Rochester. We didn't have a drummer to work with live in the past, but that is all over with now...
Sanguine: The situation with our drummer now is the one that we always wanted. He originally was a guitarist, but picked up the drums out of frustration because of the dearth of drummers everywhere. And he is very good at both. Because he is a guitarist, he is able to learn and work with the songs as they are written, and he doesn't bring any of the baggage that a normal drummer often does.

ID: Such as not being able to work well with writing the music?
Wrath: More the attitude of "I'm the only one here that plays drums. You need me, so I will be impossible to deal with."

ID: Yep, I know that attitude well...
Sanguine: Also, he hears the riffs as a guitarist. Drummers seem to hear riffs and parts of songs in a different way that I don't yet understand.

ID: I've also noticed that drummers like to sit back and basically say "I just play drums...I don't need to help write" and leave everything up to the guitarists...
Wrath: Well, admittedly Sanguine and I do all the arranging for the songs, though Gregg [Garbach] is adding his input into what we write to make it his work, too.

ID: Which is a very good thing, in my humble opinion...
Sanguine: Yeah, we usually create skeleton drum machine patterns and show them to him and he ends up fleshing them out in his own way. We are working on new songs now, and basically we are writing the drums more with him than with the machine.

ID: That's cool. One more thing about the drummer situation, and then I'll move on. I read one conflicting report that you were also working with the drummer from Absu...What was that about?
Sanguine: Well, we got in touch with him and asked if he would be interested in recording session drums for us and he was, but his schedule and our schedules did not end up working out, so we went with the backup plan.

ID: After recording the full-length "Homecoming's March", you picked up and moved to New York. Was there a mentionable difference between Austin (Texas) and Rochester? What charged the move?
Wrath: Well, we felt like a change of scene was needed. We also hoped to find someone to be a regular drummer and be closer to the east coast scene, which has a lot more happening overall.
Sanguine: Austin is the city of youth and Rochester is the city of agedness and decrepitude. It's a nice place, if somewhat quaint. There are a lot of geriatrics here.

ID: LOL...And you like Rochester better than Austin because of that?
Wrath: Uh, no. It is easier to get around here and it's not as bad in the tiresomely "hip" aspect like Austin, but it also is a quieter existence to be sure.
Sanguine: Rochester is probably the nicest place in New York state to live and it's very close to Toronto and other major cities in the area, but it's not better than Austin.

ID: So the scene in that area [Toronto and New York] is...hmm...more "active" than Texas?
Wrath: Sort of. I think there is more openness to the music itself, though like everywhere else, it is relegated to concentrated patches of activity.
Sanguine: There seems to be fewer bands--at least in our town--than in Austin. Most of the bands we saw in New York are of the "jump metal" variety. The crowds have actually been embarassing.

ID: Meaning?
Sanguine: "Jump metal" means like Dying Fetus, Korn kind of bands all mixed together.

ID: I get what you mean. I think that what you said about "concentrated patches of activity" is common everywhere...It takes something like Milwaukee Metalfest or something to get huge crowds of "metal heads" or whatever...
Wrath: Yeah, metal fans seem to be really lazy. Back in Austin there would only be a large gathering of them if someone burnt out like Cannibal Corpse came through. Most of the time there would only be a handful of people turning out for shows and they were the truly dedicated metal warriors of Texas!
Here you'll be lucky if you get fifteen people to show up and everyone just stands around.

ID: Ha, sounds like Michigan...
Wrath: Texas metal heads are the best. At least they move!

ID: Yeah, unless you go to a Korn show around here, that's exactly how the fans are here. No one comes out for shows unless it's a HUGE name band; and then if they do, they stand there and drink as opposed to getting into the music. Anyway, what do you think black metal is all about? Being "true" or is there more to it?
Sanguine: Being "true" is meaningless. Most people involved will say that the music is Satanic first, but that would mean that Deicide and Incantation are black metal, too. I think there's a definite sound to the style, but there is more room in the lyrics and imagery and thought than just writing songs about "This song is about how I hail Satan and how Satan will rise up and kill all the Christians". "And this other song is about how I hail Satan." The music is definitely atmospheric and grim. It can even be depressing. I think if it evokes those kinds of responses then it has done its job.

ID: And I must say that's a great way of looking at it.
Wrath: At least for me and our band. Black metal is a devotion to music of both a high art and a low hate, so to speak. We subscribe to an ideal that we must make our music, lyrics and concept as unique as possible within a framework established by all the bands that have come before. For us, this band has a life of its own almost. It's great to watch how the story continues to unfold and fires our imaginations to reveal even more of it.

ID: Do you think there IS an actual philosophy associated with black metal? And if so, why is it there there are so many bands out there that don't seem to be following it...that they're more into just being into black metal because it's "Satanic"?
Wrath: Oh, definitely. Black metal is a philosophy unto itself for those who really believe in it. It extends to all sorts of things like the fact that I feel like I'm from a different realm amidst most of the people I live around and work with can figure into that philosophy. A passion for extreme music coupled with an inborn distaste for the banal and frivolous pursuits that most people have is black metal to me. As far as other bands go, it's pretty easy to tell who really "feels" black metal and who does it because it's the "thing" right now. I think the Satanic aspect take a bus worth of back seats to "We can't get away with ripping off Obituary anymore. Let's be black metal!"
Sanguine: If all things were perfect, and all the people who are in black metal bands, subscribed to this. Black metal is fundamentally anti-Christian. It is such because "the church" has been the cause of so many horrible things in our history, usually involving the supression of an indigenous population's beliefs through weaponry. That's not to say that WE operate from a wholesale rebellious standpoint, say of opposing the church just because it gets a rise out of mom and dad. Rather, it is an inborn opposition to this almost virus-like organization which has twisted and perverted the way the world is naturally. There probably won't be any Muslim-based bands. If there are, they are rap groups. But there really isn't a general undercurrent of opposition to a religion such as that because in the grand scheme it's a tad bit more on the "benign" side than Christianity.

ID: True enough. What do you think of the sudden popularity of black metal? Or is it really that sudden?
Sanguine: It's pretty sudden. In Europe, I'll just suppose that everyone got to see some of that stuff firsthand and so they all went "Me too! Me too!" In America, the flow of black metal has been for many years a trickle. There were those of us who have been into it as early as we could have been, but recently since labels like Century Media and Nuclear Blast have been supplying more and more releases, everyone over here is saying, "Wow! Old Man's Child! Me too! Me too!"
Wrath: Well, in fairness, we only formed in 1996. This is common knowledge. The thing that makes us different from some of the hangers-on in the scene now is that we always stayed with extreme music even when it was in a slump (back in 1992-1995). I think that like death metal, there are people who are just in it because they believe they will be popular through it, which is stupid for so many reasons. I feel that we have gotten a fair amount of attention and acclaim since we've been together, and it always amazes me. This music ceases to be what it was created for when it gets "popular". This is why musically we can destroy a band like Dimmu Borgir purely out of providence.

ID: So...If Averse Sefira gains huge popularity, does that mean the end of the band, or does that mean a change in direction?
Sanguine: Well, we have counter measures in place to ensure that our "popularity" only goes so far. If we are able to detect a significant change in direction in what we write, then the band will be immediately put to bed. I think some of these bands now are unable to see that they have made a significant change in direction, and I think they should change their names because what they are doing now is not at all what their bands were founded upon. If we end up writing songs that don't fit what we are doing, then we will walk away.
Wrath: I think that there is a big difference between success and popularity. Immortal is one of the most steadfastly arrogant and elitist bands in the genre, and I admire that. They do what they do for the sheer art of it and never bend to criticism or trend. They are one of the only "black circle" bands still wearing corpse paint! In the end, if people like what we do and that gets us a big following, then I don't think that is so terrible as long as we acquired it legitimately by staying true to ourselves and the motives and ideals that make this endeavor so vital to us.

ID: Okay, I think that sort of clarifies the whole "I wanna stay underground" thing that many bands have. I've never really understood it. Like, why start a band, work at it, try to get signed, promote yourselves, play shows, and then one day you wake up rich, say to yourself "Man, I never wanted all this popularity" and then shoot yourself (like namely Kurt Cobain...not that he has anything to do with black metal). But what you said makes sense.
Wrath: Really, all the bands we know who are successful in this genre are far from being rich. That is another big difference.

ID: Oh, I know. It would be a rare thing for a black metal band to actually make tons of money, I think. (Like Cradle of Filth.)
Wrath: The only way CoF does it is by licensing all their own merchandise. That's where the $$ is...

ID: You've donated your vocal talents to Death of Millions and done production work and other projects involving other bands...Do you think that's fairly common among metal bands? To help each other out. Or do you feel a more competitive vibe?
Sanguine: Ideally, all the bands would support and help each other. But recently it seems like everyone's hellbent on competing with one another. That's the thing that makes me ill because it just turns into a lot of petty infighting and childishness.

ID: Kind of like it's just going to work against the entire black metal--or metal, for that matter--scene.
Wrath: Exactly. We, I guess, are "nice" by black metal terms because we LIKE to support and be friendly with other bands, provided they are bands with character and conviction. But we would never bother to try and impede anyone else, no matter how stupid or ridiculous. This is why we do not name any bands we don't like in interviews when asked. That is just a waste of time, and it also give us carte blanche to rail the hell out of anyone who speaks badly of us. We try to be respectful and we demand the same in return.

ID: Good philosophy. Okay, have to ask this as well...Who is His Wolfliness E'er Daarkening [referred to on the website] and how is he involved?
Sanguine: He was our original "shadow member" who provided the interludes or "aversions" as we call them on the "Blasphomet Sin Abset" demo. He decided to leave the group because, in his own words, "he lacks artistic integrity". We have replaced him with Lady of the Evening Faces who creates our aversions now.

ID: And let me guess...She will remain "in the shadows" so to speak...
Wrath: Yes, mainly because her contribution is a "studio" involvement. The soundscapes she and Daarkening craft are made by so many various means. They are effectively reclusive goths in any case, but Lady is happy to know that her work is adding to the overall effect of the songs. Many people have really gotten into both members' work on our recordings. They have both added soemthing unique to the fold.
Sanguine: I do want to make clear that none of these aversions have been made with keyboards!

ID: Just curious...Something against keyboards?
Sanguine: Yeah, most people make them sound terrible and they end up detracting from the music. Plus, most people these days seem to think that black metal must have keyboards and we do not. It is a point of pride for us that we do not rely on them.
Wrath: That isn't to say that we don't like other bands with keyboards. We are big Emperor fans, among others, but I think it is also admirable that Lady can generate so many truly terrifying sounds through physical instrumentation. That takes true skill.

ID: If you found a way to implement keyboards where it didn't overwhelm the overall musicianship of the songs, would you use them?
Wrath: No.
Sanguine: No.

ID: That's cool...It's different from most. I have to comment on something that Wrath stated in an interview that I read within the subject of so-called armegeddon..."No, actually, I don't think we will die from one big cataclysm...ultimately it will be a slow burn for our extinction." I tend to agree. Do you still think this is true and what do you think of the bands or people who are so dead-set on the idea that the world is going to end at the new millenium?
Wrath: Well, I think it's a copout. After all, it's really only significant because people decide that the year 2000 means something. It's really arbitrary to me in that we could easily live in a society where 2000 years was a millenium. I don't really see how it matters. Most people will live about 75 years, so our place in time is relative to our births. I think things continue through time regardless of what year it is. If the '60's were actually the '30's in another timeline, the evens would still be revoltingly the same. We would just be calling it a different number.
Sanguine: I just think that people are foolishly buying into the age-old marketing gimmick of "the X period of time is ending--Oh no!" To me, since the Chinese calendar has long since past the year 2000 I think we will be all right. It is mostly the Christians that are freaking out about the date anyway. I'm more worried about when the current Mayan Long Count runs out...
Wrath: I do know this: People will die by the score as the millenium hits. There will definitely be several fewer doomsday cults on January 1st!
Sanguine: I think it's entirely possible that something bad will happen because people want or make it happen.

ID: Well, I suppose I should shut up...Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Wrath: Thanks for the interview. Prepare for "Homecoming's March"! I have said this before, but it is now finally upon us!
Sanguine: Yes! The march has begun! Raise the horns high and take the proud by war!

Contact Info:

Averse Sefira
PO Box 18789
Rochester, NY 14618-8789