|
Author
|
Topic: Trivia(Archive1)
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 07:36 AM
Very interesting question. I will try an answer but this maybe a stretch too...
Here's a quote
quote:
He was ... as venerable as a king of dwarves
This describes Elrond
And here's the entry from the Webster's dictionary for venerable
quote:
calling forth respect through age, character, and attainments;
broadly : conveying an impression of aged goodness and benevolence b : impressive by reason of age
Could this perhaps be made to mean that Elrond was nearly as old as dwarf kings, and then the inference would be that dwarf kings are the older of the two? ![[]](icon26.gif)
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lonely Turambar
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1685
|
posted 02-26-2002 08:09 AM
I don't have the book with me but in the song the dwarves sing in Bilbo's house they say that the dwarves of old did something (made things? can't remember) "by elves or men unseen" - or something like that. Is that it ![[]](icon5.gif)
From: Orchard Park NY | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Laurenendôrian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 106
|
posted 02-26-2002 10:38 AM
Lugbúrz has the answer that I was looking for when I posed the question. In the description oof Elrond, he is also likened to an elf, but only the similarity with the dwarves implies age. It could be argued that age was therefore a more prominent characteristic of dwarves than of elves, and thus that dwarves lived longer.
However, when I was going to bed last night, I suddenly remembered the elves calling Thorin 'father', as Bungo has posted. The same indication can be drawn from this, so I suppose that either Lugbúrz or Mr. Baggins could take the next go.
From: Laurenendôr | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 11:08 AM
Initially I had strong objections to both answers, mine and Bungo's and here's why:
Bungo's: The elves who called Thorin "father" may have indeed been younger than Thorin and is hardly a justification to generalize the implications.
Mine: The previous paragraph to my quote specifically indicates that Elrond has descended from men and elves and then goes ahead to make this comparison, which in my opinion proves that Elrond maybe younger than dwarf kings but not elves of old...
But your argument that the very comparison draws glory to their age is a very good one and perhaps correct but if we do think a minute it may be argued that the comparison with elves was not done due to the fact that elves are immortal and whether elrond was meant to be or not is not clear at this stage or in this context...
We shall wait for your clarification
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Laurenendôrian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 106
|
posted 02-26-2002 11:32 AM
I am aware that the passage does not stand up to a great deal of scrutiny in the matter, because in Tolkien's works the dwarves do not live longer than elves. I think, however, that it the place upon which the strongest case may be built. To quote the entire passage:
quote:
He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.
He is compared to both elves and dwarves, but only against the dwarves is any comparison made regarding age. Perhaps a better conclusion would be that dwarves had the appearance of being older than elves. At any rate, I know of nothing better, and it was I who set the question, so you may as well take the next turn.
From: Laurenendôrian | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 11:40 AM
Reading the whole quote does make your argument compelling. I hardly looked at it like that. The word is what stood out ![[]](icon53.gif)
I will try again for a question. How can I please, is the tough question...
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 01:29 PM
What are the sources of light mentioned in The Hobbit ?
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belegurth
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1534
|
posted 02-26-2002 01:36 PM
Moonlight (when Bard slays dragon), sun (troll-incident), a torch (when the dwarves search for the Arkenstone in Smaug's mountain), the Arkenstone refelcted the light and the dragon-fire of course... and Gandalf throwing burning pieces of wood on the Warg and when he kills some Orcs in the Misty mountains... and I'm pretty sure that the elves in Mirkwood used candles.
From: the void | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marcho Blackwood
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270
|
posted 02-26-2002 01:55 PM
In addition to the above list there are a few others:
Well, there is the lamp that Bilbo was going to fetch in his hobbit hole, Gandalf's wand as they fled from the Goblins. Several glowing swords shed some light on the matter and there are the bright lanterns at Rivendale. There are numerous mentions of fire light and torches, including burning towns and spouting dragons.
Lightning as they went over the mountains, followed not to long afterward by a tower of blue glowing smoke. Gollum's eyes glowed palely in the darkness. Beeswax candles at Beorn's house. And I suppose you could say that the discussion of Gandalf's fireworks could be considered as a source in the book.
Between the two of us, did we miss anything?
From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 01:57 PM
Quick replies, so lets consolidate:
1. the Sun
2. the Moon
3. Gandalf's staff
4. Swords
5. Lightning
6. Fire (I group candles, torches and all other fuels for fire as one)
You may continue guessing ![[]](icon16.gif)
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 01:58 PM
7 Glowing smoke
8 Gollum's eyes
I am looking for one more specific reference...
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marcho Blackwood
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:03 PM
There was the 'gloaming' hair of the elves and the starlight that the elves loved.
From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:08 PM
LOL how can we leave out the gloaming hair, as a tribute to the excellent question that we missed here is
9 gloaming hair
10 starlight
I am waiting for number 11 ![[]](icon51.gif)
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:14 PM
To be complete let us list the fuels we have too
for fire:
a) wood
b) tinder
c) flint
d) wax (candles, beeswax)
e) fireworks (gunpowder?)
f) dragon-fire
any more?
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marcho Blackwood
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:17 PM
Bard's eyes -
quote:
He was drenched with water, his black hair hung wet over his face and shoulders, and a fierce light was in his eyes.
And the Arkenstone was already mentioned.
For fuels, there should be oil, for the lamp and possibly also the lanterns, though they could be candles. How about gunpowder? Those fireworks were made of something!
From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:24 PM
The "hot" list
11. The Bard's eyes
now I did not have that in my original list (apart from the gloaming hair that is)
12 Arkenstone (Dangit, that wasnt there either
sources of fire:
g) oil
What can I say? How about a t-h-i-r-t-e-e-n?
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marcho Blackwood
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:37 PM
Thorin and company, as they joined the battle of the five armies.
quote:
Hood and cloak were gone; they were in shining armor, and red light leapt from their eyes.
Scary image, actually!
For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
My take on this is they were capturing sunlight to go into the gems.
From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:41 PM
I would take the gloaming to mean shining bright in some sort of light and the light in the gems is an interesting thought, but it says that they trapped it in so it isn't a source, but would probably count as one in time to come...
13. gems of old
Where is the lucky number?
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-26-2002 02:42 PM
Here it is:
14. eyes of Thorin and company
Where is 15? (Given up on letters)
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bungo
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 278
|
posted 02-26-2002 07:07 PM
At the risk of being ridiculous in my barrel-bottom-scraping, how about the explosions which the goblins are said to delight in? Any light there? Or is that just fire again.
How about 'The windows of the Night' which the elves sing about on Bilbo's return journey through Rivendell? Or is that just stars again.
Can someone please put us out of our misery?
From: Kowloon, Hong Kong | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Musnud
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 720
|
posted 02-26-2002 11:06 PM
Doesn't the ring give off some light at some point? Or am I just remembering things from the animated movie?
From: Tulsa, OK, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bungo
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 278
|
posted 02-26-2002 11:39 PM
Lugburz, I hope you haven't made a difference between dragon fire and "the glow of Smaug". Hurry up and come back and respond to our meager efforts.
From: Kowloon, Hong Kong | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Laurenendôrian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 106
|
posted 02-27-2002 02:18 AM
The insect eyes, when they were in Mirkwood?
---
![[]](icon54.gif) Yikes! My 3000th post. I think that I had better slow down a little.
From: Laurenendôr | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-27-2002 02:53 AM
That dirty guy has the answer I was looking for ![[]](icon10.gif)
And I have approximately 1/10th the number of his posts but still believe tha I have grown into a voluble dotard...
I shall post the list in my next post...
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867
|
posted 02-27-2002 03:31 AM
Can I have references for the following:
1. Musnud: the ring giving a glow
2. Bungo: I am considering the explosions of the goblins, I know a source where it states they like explosions, any reference to what these explosions involve, my guess would be putting this as a fuel...
3. Bungo: the glow of Smaug is a very interesting point too and I will include it because I have a reference.
4.Marcho are we sure that the hair of the elves was not a gloaming in some light, like a reflection, can we have the quote with a little more context?
So, soon I will a list with refernces and we can just edit that if theres any further update.
Since in the beginning I had 10 sources keeping all fuels under one source of fire, and the only tricky one was the insect eyes, the Laur has a claim to ask a question. But since then we have at least 7 more sources being:
the arkenstone(very doubtful?), the hair of the elves(?), the eyes of the dwarves, the glow of smaug, the ring(?), bard's eyes and gems of old.
Given by Marcho(3,1?), Belegurth(1?), Bungo(1), Musnud(1?)
I would say Marcho has the best claim for the next question.
I would say we will finally have around 15 credible sources of light from the book.
As for fuels I have 7 sources as of now and no clear references except for the torches, tinder, flint and candles at Beorn's place and wood of course. Where's oil and gunpowder coming from?
Lanterns... would say either candles or oil
From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
