ok, Japedo, sorry , I didn't realize that you have a militia attitude.
There would be no reasoning with you so I won't try.

I do agree so much with the people that are offended by the treatment of
Bill Gates.
We teach kids to be successful from the start and make money and have
free enterprise.  Then, when they do it well, we are so jealous., we sue
them and take them down.  What a great system.  Viva Gates!  If I were
Gates, I would take my money, knowledge, and toys and tell the rest of
the world to kiss off.

As for the taking of Elian from his Miami Stockholm syndrome existence:
Bravo Reno and INS.  And if you think they weren't going in there with
guns, you are a very silly person.  The big question for me is why was
he in a closet with a fisherman, lol.   That fisherman worries me about
as much as anything else.  lol

Look at him with his dad.  He's with his family.  Hey, Toko, good to
hear from you but if he stays in Miami and those drunken uncles kill him
in a car, are you gonna ship him back to his dad and say, opps!  sorry.

The very idea that a father would come over here to get his son and have
to go through our courts when neither he or his son are Americans is so
ridiculous, I am in awe!   Who in the hell do we think we are anyway?
That should be criminal, kidnapping.

Have a nice day!

p.s.  good rants Goster, yaya and Ess.

Psssssssst.......May I recommend for your further edification re Microsoft,
the column in www.nypost.com by Ronald Cass.  Well worth a read.

Mimi

I concur heartily with GoVanGogh .....FIRST paragraph ONLY, I hasten to
state!!  I, along with so many others, are sick, sick, sick of   .....all
Elian, all the time.  Enough already!

Seems to me the Microsoft situation and Rudy Giuliani's health condition are
of more immediate concern these days.  SIX more months 'til election time.
Get Busy!!

P.S.  Greetings to those with whom we have been out of touch for .....lo,
these many months.  Good to see so many of you in print again.

Mimi

Reference the "hate" of Slick.  You seem to forget that there are TWO
DIFFERENT types of hate for Slick,,,,,,(1) earned,,,,and (2) deserved!!!!
Slick has EARNED every single bit of scorn, enmity, disrespect and disdain
that we can possibly give him!!!
He has EARNED it....
and.....
HE DESERVES IT!!!!!!!

guy737sw

MORE !!! GUY737

Great President????  YGBSM!!!
Yea,,,I guess he was all right----if you don't mind perjury, obstruction,
subornation of perjury, illegal conduct, inventing the "politics of personal
destruction" for anyone who dares to challenge his right to do as he pleases,
and his regular immoral and unethical behavior!!!!  Other than that.....he's
ok, I guess.....LOL
And reference you comments about a "coup"???
COUP??,,,,LMAO,,,,,
You seem to forget that there are no means, constiutional or otherwise, of
OVERTHROWING A WHORE HOUSE!!!!!!!
Yep,,,,you're support of a "PROVEN pathological liar,,,,a KNOWN sexual
predator and an ACCUSED/PROBABLY rapist" makes you a "perfect target" for Al
Gore!!!
We don't disagree on everything,,,,,,,,,as we do, however, have "common
ground" here.  I think that we can at least agree on this....
AL GORE IS FOR YOU!!!!!

BELLAH !!!
Anyway: one rant is that I have not come down on one side or the other of the Elian thing.  Not sure what would be best for the boy, although I am leaning more toward the father.  I had VERY tough times when I was growing up (thru the depression) and I know what it is to do without but I had a family that loved me and of course we had liberty and freedom so I guess I can't truly decide.

BIG rant is that I am totally supportive of Gates and am furious that those wimpy republican congressmen/women have not spoken out.  Where are the conservatives and libertarians on this issue.  We MUST SET UP SOME KIND OF PETITION DRIVE to show support for him.  The internet is the perfect place to get started.  We could spread the word in the chat rooms we visit WW, and areas like Golbergs site, etc that we have a petition.  I don't know how to go about it but don't you think there is a way we can raise our voices in support of him before it is too late?  PLEASE!  Also remember this is the ideal time it is before election and every wimp is up for election.  I am just sick about what has happened to this man.  He stands for what we believe in and he is being taken to the cleaners -- not with IRS agents at gun point but it might be just as effective.     Bellah

Toko!!!

Annya, telya,  yaya,   hey there,  I love this debate and yaya and
telya..  Shame on you two,  I wanted this boy with his dad just as bad
as anyone but to have a mp5 pointed at this boy was not what I was
prepared for.  You can bet your happy butts I have emailed every and
I do mean every  congressman,  senator and plus Clinton twice and Reno
once.   Just to let them all know how disappointed in this government  I
was.   Once again,  the tactics of the CLinton regeme strike again.   I
am so appalled they would risk the life of a child like that.  It was
utterly uncalled for.   Now all I hear,  is this trash talk from an
administration who once again managed to insult the intelligence of the
American people with the right thing to do.  UGH!!   With all the
violence against kids these days in our own country they have the right
to speak of gun control.   Do you know that Saturday morning cartoons
were interrupted for tons of little kids to see , WHAT,  a little six
year old with a mp5 pointed at him.  How do we explain "Oh gee kids
don't worry these are the good guys".    HA!!!     Also, as  you all
know I have been thru several immigration events due to hubby being from
a different country and I can tell you they did break INS rules also.
They  revoked kids status which technically can't be done due to hearing
or proceeding in progress.  Totally unbelievable.  Also did you know the
INS wrote Juan,  the daddy a letter on 2/18/2000/  saying that they
refused to transfer custody from Lazarro Gonzalez to the quiet Uncle
Manolo cause they had someone come out and check and Lazarro's house was
perfectly fine setting for boy until appeal.   Man,  now they are
totally trashing these people.  Now tomorrow cause of the firing of the
city manager and the resignation of the police chief,  cuban-americans
were having some kind of demostration going on,  well other ethnics in
the area back the chief and the city manager, and cubans back mayor so
they have torn this city apart.   I blame    Reno and Clinton,   I lived
in FLorida and they will be lucky if it doesn't turn very ugly.   Heck
Reno grew up there.   THis is the saddest time for all of us.   Oh and
then to my dismay I read that we are sending war ships to Puerto Rico.
I am just floored.  What is next war within our own country?  Let's not
forget here, we didn't go raid another country these were our own
people.    Not to mention,  these people were a little slow anyhow and
figured they would show Reno by letting her hop her happy butt in that
house drag out a screaming kid,  makes nice ammo for the 6 o'clock
news.  Hey I didn't like the boy on tv and some of the things I was
seeing on tv,  but one thing I do feel is these ppl were honest and
sincere in what they did for that child and how they treated him.   The
least the dad could do is thank them.   I also, find it so appeasing to
people who wanted to see this boy with his dad, don't ya find it a
little scary how all these pictures just from the lawyer are out
there.   Oh and let me not fail to mention cuban diplomats on an
american airforce base?????   In this nations capital too!!!   Blah,
this makes me crazy.    Anyway I love you guys and miss this kind of
chat I will try to see you all soon  (that is if the secret service
doesn't get me for those emails, lol),   Love ya,  and take care   TOKO

You know what?  Everyone forgets the fact that the INS and Janet Reno
gave tempory custody to this family in the heart of Little Havana,  well
aware that this great uncle had two dui convictions.  Well it pretty
much is a no brainer to anyone who knows of this part of our country
this was not a wise move to begin with.  That dad demanded he be
returned to cuba the day after he was found.  But did they nope!!!!  Did
it also occur to you, that the AG of the US had also grown up in this
area and should of known damn well what was gonna happen the minute this
kid was put in that home.  Even if the family wanted to return this kid
it wasn't gonna happen.  And now this family is called disfuntional,
trailer trash,  kidnappers ect.  I find it to be a strategy by this
admin if all else fails demean, belittle and down right destroy the
lives of your opponents, not to mention the ethnic group that was
involved in this situation.  This family is just one of the many
scapegoats of this administration and one day Clinton  will pay,  maybe
in hell who knows but he will.  That is what keeps me going,  cause if
not the last strategy of this administration is to do whatever it takes
to drive the people of this country so mad, they have to commit all the
people who don't agree with them,  to one big fat mental ward.   Can we
spell concentration camp!!!!!    This was handled wrong from day one and
I am just wanting one, to hear one person say that. This kid should of
never been in that position, and now if Miami has a culteral war, due to
our admins lack of judgement.   Look what happened to the police chief
when he helped with this raid.  Forced out!!!  This family couldn't of
oppose the cuban american community anyhow, now they are being trashed
all over tv.  Would you of let them come live with you to get away from
that community?  I think not.   Toko

Esscents !!!!
......and I wept when a little boy can't be with his father...and a father
can't be with his son.
I hope this whole episode goes away real soon....it's dividing the country,
and for what????  We have better things on which to focus our energies.
Let's all pray for Rudy.....New York needs him.

Yanks !!!

Now what should have happened was something very simple.  And it doesnt
involve Janet reno or bill clinton.  Instead it involves George bush sr. ,
George w Bush, John McCain,  Jesse ventura, Jeb Bush and the florida, texas
air national guards.

What would happen on thurday April 13th would be as follows.  GW bush and
his father along with john McCain and Jeb bush would trick the cuban govt.
Now since all ex president have secret service protection george bush sr
would have his secret service agents call the cuban compoound holding Elians
father.  They will tell the cubans that the vice president wants to visit
the father for a brief visit with no attention at all.  The agents arive a
couple minutes later at the door and have there credentals verified.  Then a
couple minutes later a limo aproaches.  Now this would be a typical
presidental/vp limo.  It parks in the lot and has the father and the family
come out to the limo.  Once there they get into the limo and there is to
theer suprize if GW Bush, Bush Sr and John McCain.  GW Bush talks in spanish
to the father. The father would understand who hes with the former president
of the united states and the next president of the US.  Then GW asks if he
would like to defect to america and says we can protect your family from
clinton, castro and his stooges.  Also if your worried about your family in
cuba we can arrange for there freedom and then can be in the US in a few
hours.  Once he says "yes" for the defection then mcCain will call on his
radio saying "OPERATION DEFECTION is a GO".  The secret Service runs back to
the Limoand flees the cuban compound.  There is a fire fight between the
limo and the cubans on the ground but the Texas Air National Guard choppers
then engage the cuban forces on the ground allowing the limo to escape.  Now
flying from Miami to Cuba is Jesse Ventura and his band of soldure of
forturn types and cuban refugees which nears cuban airspace just as the
recieve teh message from mcCain.  The father gives location of his relatives
in the message sent by Mccain in a crypted format so only they can
understand it.  Choppers land where the relatives are being held and engage
in a firefight with the cubans guards.  Once the relatives are safe and in
flight heading home the Cuban airforce responds.  Now protecting the
Choppers on their way home is the Florida Air national Guard which is
engaging in Live Missle Training exercises far off shore about 5 miles off
of Cuba.  As the Migs go up they then go down in flames.  Now once the
family is all safe in American Airspace they fly to the Miami relatives home
where Bush and his band with the father are just laning there chopper in
Miami.  Where a stuned crowd watches them land and leave the choppers and
they detail the politicians detail teher story to the media and teh family
is reunited together.  Once they are reunited GW Bush then flyes them to NY.
  Where they get to see the Ny Yankees play the Texas Rangers.  In this game
a former cuban who defected Orlando Hernandez is listed to pitch that day.
A perfect ending for a great day.

<yawn>

I'm just tired of hearing about Elian.   There are sooooo many child
custody cases that we never hear about, but we have to be tortured in
the news over this one for how long now?  I feel for the child, who lost
his Mom, and I feel for the father who lost his wife and almost lost his
kid. And I feel for the other relatives who think they know better than
the dad.  But enough already!  I know Cuba isn't the best place in the
world, but neither is the USA, in every way for every person. We have
plenty of poverty and problems.   I've read Sweden has a higher average
standard of living than we do.  So should we weep for the billions of
children who can't live there?  There are plenty of Cubans who love
their country simply because it's home.  Let him be with his Dad.
Would you give up your child so easily?

And Jackieoo, Democrasy isn't dead.  It might've been if the Impeachment
Coup Crowd had been able to overturn the elections, but they failed.
Clinton needed a chastity belt, yes, but he has been a great president
and I'm proud to have voted for him.  Man, the sour grapes over election
of a democrat to the presidency are amazing!  Why do GOPers think they
should own the presidency?  Just because they had Reagan and Bush for 12
years! Sheesh.  There have been plenty of Dem presidents before them.

Again, this hatred over Clinton/Gore just makes me more inclined to vote
for Gore despite his flaws.

GOvanGOGH
 

Elian was a survivor.....for what??  To survive long enough to be returned to
slavery?  Of course, he will be a slave - not for his father, but for Castro.
 The father is also a slave.  Long live slavery as long as father's rights
are protected.  I can see it now -  when Castro dies, Elian's father will sue
the United States for allowing his son to be raised as a slave and will want
reparations.

God isn't dead.  Democracy is dead.  We have had the government we deserve
for the past 8 years.  Kruschev was right!   My grandchildren WILL be raised
in a communist United States.

I wept when Clinton was first elected. I wept over Ruby Ridge.  I wept over
Waco.  I wept over the Murrah Building bombing.  I wept when Clinton was
re-elected.  I wept over the failure of the impeachment vote.   I have wept
over the multliple school massacres.  I wept over Elian's abduction.   I have
no more tears.  I have disgust for those who have allowed the country to die
while they pondered their portfolios.

Oh that we had a kennel preparing a replay for the dogs of II Kings 9:??

Two rants:  (1)  Gary (aka Oggy) knows that I feel Elian belongs with his father, BUT, I also told him I hadn't been as stunned by news film/video since the day I saw Jack Ruby murder Lee Harvey Oswald on live TV.  To say I was stunned by the "capture" of Elian is a major understatement.  If it looks like Waco, sounds like Waco,  raids like Waco, then my fellow "free" Americans, it's another Waco.
(2)  The recent Microsoft events have had me simmering below the skin.  THIS is free enterprise???  When did we start telling private enterprise that they can't earn too much, improve their products too much, be too competitive?  When did we say that whining wannabes get to say how much the industry leader can compete?  It's damn frightening.  I recently read a NYT article about the automobile "industry" in China.  More...
It vividly described how you could have any color you chose from the six available as long as you wanted black.  It told how you didn't have to bother shopping for a good price because the Chinese government regulates prices and competition.  Heck, you can't even test drive a car until you buy it.  I may be strange, but I see a very close resemblance to what the USA is doing to Gates..... More...
Take away competetiveness in the computer industry (or any industry) and what have you got?  Mao's dream.  Gates has done more for this country's economy than any other industry.  Don't care because he's too rich?  You'd BETTER care, because if he can't get rich, NO ONE else will be able to either.  Pray for democracy.

Sorry annya,

As much as you are very convincing about your position vis a vis the Cubano Fidelisto Commuinstos and Communism in general, and that there is no doubt about the basically flawed communist idealogy......

I am inclined to agree with Telya on this one.... the position of the Father Juan Miguel Gonzales really trumps his Uncle's and his second-cousin's (Marislysis') claims to the boy.  Did anyone point out that Juan is the boy's father and Lazaro is Juan Miguel's great-uncle?

Do the math.  The boy's legal AND moral custodian should be the surviving parent, Juan.   Period.

Turn the situation around, and have Juan taking Elian to the U.S.

The surviving parent, i.e. the Mother, would be screaming from Cuba:  "Give me back my BABY!!!!"

And, under this scenario, nearly every AMERICAN MOTHER would be saying:   "Give that boy back to the (surviving parent), er, the Mom...."

Hate to disagree with you, as I generally agree with your position on Communism... but, the surviving parent -- in this case -- has rights.

If an American Boy should be taken to Cuba and that if that parent were to drown in the process, we'd be screaming: "Return that kid to his (surviving parent)"

Nevertheless, I love ya anyway !!!

Love,

Pat.

Elian belongs with his father, who seems to love him very much.  People
question why he didn't come to the US sooner, etc., etc.  He couldn't -
accept that as a fact of life when you live under a totalitarian regime.
Also, the myth that Elian's mother, Elizabeth "gave her life to give him
freedom" has been debunked.  Elizabeth was coming to the US to be with her
criminal boyfriend, whom her mother wouldn't tolerate.  Also debunked is the
myth that Elian was estranged from his father, Juan; he lived with his father
4-5 days a week and, in fact, Juan spent more time raising him than Elizabeth
who was wrapped up in her boyfriend.  Further, Juan has a very comfortable
home where Elian can have his own bedroom - rare in Cuba.

Then we have the family in Miami.  They would hardly be anyone I would have
any of my children live with - freedom or not.  They are a dysfunctional
group with Lazaro having a drinking problem, two of Marisleysis' cousins with
multiple felonies, several others in trouble with the law were in and out of
that Little Havanna home with frequency.  And then there is Marisleysis, who
is completely unstable and has required hospitalization for stress at least 6
times during this period.  Elian is not some cute little stray puppy with
which you can say "finders keepers." And let us not forget Donato, the house
cleaner turned fisherman, who lays claim to this child.  Donato has earned
his 15 minutes of fame and it is now time for him to get a life.

Elian is now secluded with HIS FAMILY - his real family.  That is as is
should be.  And all of this monkeying around with psychologists (most of whom
are nuts themselves), appeals, etc.  This is not a custody case, it is an
immigration case.  It is up to Juan to determine where Elian should live.  If
it is communist Cuba, so be it.  There are good and loving families in Cuba
just as there are all over the world under horrible regimes.  Elian will be
fine.  The rest of us should get on with life and forget how badly
Clinton/Reno handled getting the child back - what's done is done and can't
be changed.  It doesn't mean we all should go out and arm ourselves against
our gorvernment.

There, I feel better.

The only thing that matters on the Elian case is that he has a father.
That father has so far chosen to take him back to Cuba, that is his
chose.  Elian is his son.

Yo, Japedo, I hate to tell you this but you actually agree with
President Clinton and Ms. Reno.  You are ranting about their decisions
but they agree that Elian should go home.   Isn't that what you're
saying also?
I couldn't tell, you were a bit um, excited shall we say.

And, pleeeeze on the "fell through the looking glass" shit.  We don't
decide where a father should raise his child,  talk about communist
ideas, sheesh!   Hello!     Stop trying to stereotype everyone's
feelings.
 
 

The question here is NOT  "where does ellian belong. the Question at hand is HOW MANY laws were broken to get this boy BACK!!  It is a continuous OUTRAGE  as to what I keep witnessing thru the boobtube.  Most News papers , Most News sources  have done nothing but have a BLACK OUT on the Constitution. Spinning such nonsense  as  "how many flowers were sent to reno" (may she rest in peace in IMHO)  How many people support NOT only her but the blatant  BS  streaming from the Whitehouse!!!   the  Pix  releases by   Clinton's attorney, Greg Craig.  THIS who thing STINKS to highheavens!!  ON a US Air Force BASE.  hardly ANY AMERICAN is allowed on, while they are  allowing Cubans in by the droves. this doesn't bother anyone?, this raises NO QUESTIONS With the sick and Uneducated Sheeple of this  great land???    We have our ELECTED officials  MAKING there LAW and living by NO RULES!   even our own congress  weak as they are would rather do  do the "popular thing" then the right thing, I keep seeing this OVER AND OVER again!!  Weak n out  n out  OUTRAGEOUS!!!   People focus more on if they have enough  Money in there pockets, well  when Money leaves all you will have is your Basic freedoms, Sad truth is,  by the time the money leaves you will be sitting here WONDERING  what happened to your freedom!! and that  People of the US, have no one to blame but your  UNEDUCATED SELVES!!!!   MAY the REAL AMERICA  WAKE-UP someday and  Purge all this BS out of our lives!!  Thank you ,   Japedo (Tammy)

And a bit  of humor...from Guy737

Very eloquently stated!!  How could you have possibly offended anyone???
John

A Personal Rant...
 

This whole Elian situation has almost made me into a totally raving lunatic.  I have tried to analyze the situation from every aspect and it only makes sense if it is figured to the total advantage of Bill Clinton.
I know at this point I have a few of you throwing things at the puter and yelling at me and my lack of brain matter...I know I won't change any minds but please read and please feel free to Rant back !!!

First I need to explain my position.  I don't believe that this falls across party, race, gender, rich, poor, educated or not so educated lines...the whole reaction is something more raw and visceral.  The difference between the people who want to send Elian back to Cuba with his father and those who want him to stay, I believe to be the following; they (their family) has been in the United States for more then three generations and the real reason, if they know it, why their great-grandparents or grandparents fled Communist oppression is not a reality...the wound has healed and life is comfortable.

The memory of Communism and Socialism and Leninism and Marxism...is gone, as well as what it did to people.  They are just words and antiquated theorys...but

Castro is a dictator of a Communist country.  He has oppressed his people for generations.  Elian's generation as well as the generation of his father has NEVER known freedom.  Think about that.

If life is so ideal in Cuba...why do thousands risk their lives to come to the United States?  I always thought it was for the freedoms provided for us in the Constitution...to live without fear.  I believed that up until the picture of Elian.  I believed that until the smears, the lies, the reporters threatened, and the child being isolated and reindoctronated on American soil. If you want to argue that a child belongs with the parent..is that really true? If it was there would be no foster homes, no neglect or abuse..And you insult all of the people who risked everything to get their children to freedom and a better life and the sacrifices they made. If you say that we should send him back..should we have tossed those babies back over the Berlin wall or given them a home in a free country? Seems like family values has more then one meaning. And what do we know of Juan?

I have to ask myself what Bill Clinton owes Castro?  If Elian goes back to Cuba he will become Castro's new poster boy for the revolution a new Che.  The reason for that is that the new generation cannot relate to Che...and Elian fits the bill.

And all of this has taken heat off of Gore and Clinton's indictment of the week...as well as Bill and Hillary's law license "issues" in Arkansas.  As well as all of the rulings that the Supreme Court is up to this week.  And Congress just blusters, calls for hearings but in the end nothing will be done.

And where is Al?  Has W said much?

Castro is evil.
Communism is evil.
Bill Clinton is weak for letting a bit aged banana republic dictator get him by the coconuts...some legacy Bill.

This is not the America my parents and grandparents fled to...We loved and respected that America...I don't want to think about where we are now.

The only thing that I am sure of is that we have fallen through the "looking glass".