Yes, the banners were the batallions or the forces of the Manchus. They
were called banners, because they fought beneath these huge, colorful banners. The fighting men
themselves were called bannermen. Not too tough, huh?
Canton--having been the heart of the Canton system and the Chinese
city with the earliest major Western impact (as far as the Southern barbarians went at least)
continued to pose special problems for Westerners, even after the Opium war. There were questions
of where foreigners could live, what taxes they had to pay, etc., that weren't found at many other
treaty ports where these details were worked out fresh--not on top of many years of discrimination
and limitation.
filial piety is what you are supposed to show toward your parents--and,
if not that, what--once you are a parent you are going to expect from your kids! Deference. Respect.
Maybe not quite reverence, but certainly a proper attitude of the child to the parent, the child owing
his or her very existence to the parents. Where would we be without our parents? We owe them
everything; we owe them life; we owe them proper respect (filial piety).
Were the Five Bonds sovereign to subject, father to son, and elder son to
younger son?
David Joseph Persinger: and what were the two others?
Stephen K Michael: are there 3 or 5 actual bonds?
Ismail Ahmadi: friend to friend and husband to wife
Ana M Areas-Fodor: friend to friend was the "sixth," it isn't one of the five, is it?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: emperor-people was one
Jack Hammersmith: Rita, I've just been looking for my copy of Sextants, but I must have left it at the
office. The Society was mentioned in there in connection with organized study (sort of
intellectual-educational) groups that often formed the basis of more critical, even rebellious or
revolutionary groups late in the 19th century. Frequently fueled by discontent with China's status and
often lead by scholars or journalists, these societies started out sounding pretty bland and
non-controversial but often evolved into much more.
Jack Hammersmith: Anna, Well it isn't quite 10,000 word memorial if you include the Liang Qichao
(journalist much like I just described) and the Society for the Study of Self-Strenghtening. Plus, I
think I said that Yuan Shikai and Boxers might be on it, too. Boxers would be absolutely the last
thing on page 3 of the list, though.
Jack Hammersmith: David, The five bonds would include, in addition to what you have described,
the two that Ismail had mentioned: husband to wife and friend to friend, the latter being the only one
with rough equality involved.
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, Sometimes that first one was described as emperor to people, sometimes
emperor to advisors, sometimes sovereign to subjects, sometimes ruler to people--there are lots of
different words given, but they are all the same sense of the imperial head to those below him--and,
actually, that was everybody.
Elizabeth Anne Glass: is the map going to be on the test?
Teresa Rudine Jones: Is Prince Gong the nephew of the Empress Dowager?
Jack Hammersmith: Anna,The first term is Zhou (Chou) dynasty, and it's on the list I gave out the
first day of class. If there is a list for History 225 on the website, and I haven't looked closely at the
225 one in a while, it would be very similar, even if it isn't absolutely identical.
Kumiko Takeuchi: What is Hunan Army and Anhwei Army?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: What was the rites controversy?
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, The concept of self-strengthening as a national commitment to regain
greater leverage with the West. Li was the figure I gave you as the key to the whole
self-strengthening movement. On the other hand, this was a popular term--self-strengthening--and it
was used in other contexts. One of those was as a label for groups that wanted to study what was
being done and how effective it was. That is the context of this Society for the Study of
Self-Strengthening.
The Hunan and Anwhei armies were two of the provincial armies that the
Manchus had to rely on to put down the Taiping rebellion.
Jack Hammersmith: Teresa, No, Prince Gong was her brother-in-law, the worldly, sophisticated one
who helped negotiate the Treaties of Tianjin and about the only one she got along with. Prince Yi,
whom someone mentioned a while ago, wanted the Dowager assassinated. Not good feeling there.
If you're thinking of the nephew, you mean Guangxu (Kuang-hsu) emperor, the one who sponsored
the 100-Day reforms of 1898.
Ismail Ahmadi: the hunan was headed by zeng guefang and the anwhei was headed by li
hongzhong
Ismail Ahmadi: Hunan army*
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, Yes, David is right. Those armies, led by Zeng Guofan (Hunan) and Li
Hongzhang (Anhwei) were the keys to putting down the Taipings. Remember that this started the
trend toward decentralization and toward more and more power gravitating into Chinese hands (from
the Manchus). This would eventually culminate in the warlord period (1916-1928), but we haven't
gotten there yet.
Kumiko Takeuchi: Who was Tongwan Guan?
Mary Beth Held: What was the convention of Peking
Jared William Smith: was tonghak rebellion in korea
Ismail Ahmadi: yes
Mary Beth Held: what was the tonghak rebellion
David Joseph Persinger: I think Tongwen Guan was the Interpreters's College
Ismail Ahmadi: rebels threatened korean monarch who then asked for help from china
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, I just gave you the English for this, i.e. Interpreter's Colleges. If I ask it
on the exam, I will either give you the English or the Chinese AND the English. They were the
language schools which the Chinese set up under foreign leadership (WAP Martin, an American,
was a key) to train members of the new "foreign office," the Zongli Yamen--and for that one I just
gave you the Chinese term.
Anthony Duane Golden: I have in my notes that London rejected the Alcock convention, but what
was it?
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, The Convention was the "penalty" for the Chinese (or the Manchu
government, if you want to be more precise) failing to ratify the Treaties of Tianjin after they had
negotiated them in 1858. Remember, they negotiated them, stalled, the British went in and
demolished the summer palace, and the Prince Gong negotiated the Convention to finish everything
off. By this time, however, the Chinese had to concede a higher indemnity and other things in this
"add-on" to the Treaties of Tianjin.
Ismail Ahmadi: what is meant by "the devil doctorines ought to be killed"?
Jared William Smith: are "rice Christians" Chinese Christians or more specific
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, The Tonghak rebellion, while important, wasn't so vital for our
course. It was the rebellion against the Korean monarchy that triggered the Korean monarch to ask
the Chinese to send in troops to protect them. When the Chinese did, in accordance with the Li-Ito
agreement, they did so in such an offensive way to the Japanese that war was the result
Jack Hammersmith: Tony, The Alcock convention was an effort by the British Minister, Rutherford
Alcock, to soften some of the previous treaty terms, especially regarding some storage and tax
aspects of commerce in Hong Kong. When British merchants read the convention, they badgered
the British government until the government agreed not to ratify it. I used it in class as an example of
a Western nation helping to end the "era of better feelings" of the 1860s.
Michael Lee Jensen: so anything happening? or is everyone else here to just watch?
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, That refers to a document from which I read excerpts in class. Written by
scholar-gentrymen, it was an indictment of the missionaries and an effort to incite the Chinese
against them. I used it around the time I discussed the Tianjin massacre, an example of what could
go wrong (in a bloody sense--the Alcock convention was a mild, diplomatic example) when the
people were stirred against the missionary intrusion.
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Rice Christians are just a term meaning Chinese who converted for
practical reasons. Hungry? They converted for the food they might receive. The nickname they
were given was rice Christians. It meant they weren't authentic converts but just opportunistic ones.
Jared William Smith: ok, what are some of the more important subject areas (ie possible essay
questions)
is law of avoidance the one in which the officials were replaced periodically so they
dont become powerful among the locals
Anthony Duane Golden: and also Ismail they were never stationed in their home town
Kumiko Takeuchi: What was China Merchants Steam Navigation Company?
Ismail Ahmadi: can u give us a general idea of what the essay is gonna be on?
Ismail Ahmadi: i mean what subject matters?
Stephen K Michael: any particular dynasty we should know more than another?
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Just let your mind wander. Think about important topics, e.g.,
Confucianism, the bureaucratic state that was traditionally China, the Chinese reaction to the
West--in terms of religion (Christians--Jesuits and others) and merchants (with their demands on
different legal notions, etc.) Think large, because on the essay I am primarily looking for how you
think and what you can put together in terms of the material you've learned. The IDs are more your
facutal command of specifics, although you need to know how they fit into a larger picture, too, i.e.,
their significance.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, Yes, it meant circulation or rotation of officials from one place to another.
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, China Merchants is an example of the government-supervision,
merchant operation system that characterized the self-strenthening of Li--at least the
"industrialization" part of that self-strengthening. I know that you would not be able to say very much
about this specific company, but you could (hopefully) go into greater detail on Li's "industrial
empire" and some of those things I covered in class.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, No. Sorry. If I were going to do that, I would feel honor bound to tell
everyone. (Isn't honor great!)
Michael Lee Jensen: is the essay going to be along the lines of our opinion on a topic, or will it be a
question with a specifically right or wrong answer?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: probably about our thinking process and what we learned, the little terms just
help us build our essay, that's my opinion at least
Ismail Ahmadi: possibly
David Joseph Persinger: This thing about "squeeze," did it have anything to do with local officials
ripping off merchants under the Canton System?
Jared William Smith: yes, but also bribes that had to be paid
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, Yes, you should be able at least to identify the major dynasties (list)
and to say a couple of things about them. I think there were a few, e.g., Zhou, Qin, Han, Tang,
Qing, that you should be able to say more about. One of the sources there would be Sextants,
though I did cover some more thoroughly in lecture, e.g., Qin.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: I''m sorry, I asked this before, Mix doesn't let me scroll up. What was the rites
controversy?
Anthony Duane Golden: Anan can't you arrow up
Kumiko Takeuchi: what is 10000 word memorial?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Thanks, Anthony. That was the problem
Ana M Areas-Fodor: (I wasn't arrowing up)
Mary Beth Held: this is horrible that i don't know but what was the Tianjin Massacres about?
Ismail Ahmadi: the killin of 13 french and 3 russian missionaries
Kumiko Takeuchi: what is Forbidden city?
David Joseph Persinger: the imperial court resided in the forbidden city in beijing
Jack Hammersmith: Michael, I think you've been around a while, haven't you? Essays, as I said in
class, may be the straight-forward sort of Discuss the basic ideas of Daoism and Confucianism and
how they differed. Or it could be a simulation: You are a Chinese emperor in 19th century China.
Discuss your views on opium and trade with the West . . Or I might give you a quote: "China in the
19th century was hopelessly backward and ignorant. More than that, the Chinese never tried to
resist the West." Agree or disagree with this statement, supporting your ideas with concrete,
historical data. Stuff like that.
Ismail Ahmadi: its where the emperor lived with his concubines and eunuchs
Stephen K Michael: under what dynasty's was the forbidden city used?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Forbidden City was were the emperor lived
Anthony Duane Golden: Imperial Complex outside Beijing, (after the Ming Dynasty whose capital
was Nanjing)
Ismail Ahmadi: built by ming
Anthony Duane Golden: sounds good
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, First, I don't understand why you can't scroll. Mine works ok that way. But,
to get to your question, the rites controversy was over the issue of whether or not "ancestor
worship" could be observed by Chinese Christians. The Jesuits said yes, because it is reverence but
not truly worhsip. The Franciscians and Dominicans said no, because only a "pointy-headed
intellectual Jesuit" would fail to see that it is worship.
Ismail Ahmadi: who united china for the first time was it zhou dynasty or Qin
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, The 10,000 word memorial was organized by Kang Youwei and was
an effort to get the emperor to stop the treaty with the Japanese in 1895 and continue the fighting.
The memorial (petition) urged the continued fighting with the emperor moving the capital far inland
and telling the Japanese to "come get us." Along with this strategy went a reform movement, so that
China would ultimately be strengthened.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Oh! ok, so basically, it was the disagreement among iberians jesuits and
dominicans/franciscans. i remember, thank you!
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, Yes, Ismail is right--the episode involving French nuns who ran an
orphanage for Chinese orphans--children without parents, Kumiko--I don't know whether you know
that word. Anyway, a crowd of Chinese gathered before the orphanage, agitated no doubt by the
scholar-gentry. The French official ordered the crowd to leave or he would shoot. They did not; he
did. He missed; they didn't. And out of this came a nasty episode with all these deaths. Do you
remember it now?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: but the 10,000 wasn't successful, right?
Mary Beth Held: ok that is what I thought
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, It was built in the Ming and continued, of course, throughout the
Qing. Kumiko, Ismail has basically and briefly answered your question. It was called forbidden
because non-Chinese were forbidden to be there, and only the emperor and his court were allowed
to live there permanently.
Kumiko Takeuchi: ok thank you
Rita Susanne Edelman: Was the Lady Hughes the British Ship? I have it in my notes, marked with
a star but with no explanation.
Mary Beth Held: Rita, I believe it was
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, You are right. The 10,000-word memorial was not accepted by the
emperor. The fighting did not continue, and he didn't move the capital inland--as Chiang Kaishek
later will do. But he did try to do some of the reforming--the 100 Day reforms. Of course, they didn't
succeed either.
Jack Hammersmith: Rita, Yes.
Rita Susanne Edelman: thanks,why was it important again?
Were the Five Bonds sovereign to subject, father to son, and elder son to
younger son?
David Joseph Persinger: and what were the two others?
Stephen K Michael: are there 3 or 5 actual bonds?
Ismail Ahmadi: friend to friend and husband to wife
David Joseph Persinger: ahh, thanks
Ana M Areas-Fodor: friend to friend was the "sixth," it isn't one of the five, is it?
Ismail Ahmadi: i am pretty sure it is
Ana M Areas-Fodor: emperor-people was one
Anna Michele DiBattista: where do the terms on the paper start......is it the first couple of pages or
does it start on list 1 where it says 225, i think i studied the wrong stuff
Jack Hammersmith: Rita, I've just been looking for my copy of Sextants, but I must have left it at the
office. The Society was mentioned in there in connection with organized study (sort of
intellectual-educational) groups that often formed the basis of more critical, even rebellious or
revolutionary groups late in the 19th century. Frequently fueled by discontent with China's status and
often lead by scholars or journalists, these societies started out sounding pretty bland and
non-controversial but often evolved into much more.
Rita Susanne Edelman: ok,thanks
Ismail Ahmadi: who was prince yi
Jack Hammersmith: Anna, Well it isn't quite 10,000 word memorial if you include the Liang Qichao
(journalist much like I just described) and the Society for the Study of Self-Strenghtening. Plus, I
think I said that Yuan Shikai and Boxers might be on it, too. Boxers would be absolutely the last
thing on page 3 of the list, though.
Anna Michele DiBattista: ok thank you
Stephen K Michael: i thought the self strengthing term was in refernece to Li Hongzhang?
Jack Hammersmith: David, The five bonds would include, in addition to what you have described,
the two that Ismail had mentioned: husband to wife and friend to friend, the latter being the only one
with rough equality involved.
David Joseph Persinger: ok, thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, Sometimes that first one was described as emperor to people, sometimes
emperor to advisors, sometimes sovereign to subjects, sometimes ruler to people--there are lots of
different words given, but they are all the same sense of the imperial head to those below him--and,
actually, that was everybody.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: thank you
Elizabeth Anne Glass: is the map going to be on the test?
Teresa Rudine Jones: Is Prince Gong the nephew of the Empress Dowager?
Jack Hammersmith: Anna,The first term is Zhou (Chou) dynasty, and it's on the list I gave out the
first day of class. If there is a list for History 225 on the website, and I haven't looked closely at the
225 one in a while, it would be very similar, even if it isn't absolutely identical.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, Prince Yi has been scratched.
Ismail Ahmadi: ok thx
Kumiko Takeuchi: What is Hunan Army and Anhwei Army?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: What was the rites controversy?
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, The concept of self-strengthening as a national commitment to regain
greater leverage with the West. Li was the figure I gave you as the key to the whole
self-strengthening movement. On the other hand, this was a popular term--self-strengthening--and it
was used in other contexts. One of those was as a label for groups that wanted to study what was
being done and how effective it was. That is the context of this Society for the Study of
Self-Strengthening.
Jack Hammersmith: Sorry I got behind; had a phone call.
Jack Hammersmith: Beth, Just for you, I'll include a map. Is that good?
Ismail Ahmadi: haha
Jack Hammersmith: Beth, Take your clue from Ismail. No map this time.
David Joseph Persinger: The Hunan and Anwhei armies were two of the provincial armies that the
Manchus had to rely on to put down the Taiping rebellion.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Thanks David
Jack Hammersmith: Teresa, No, Prince Gong was her brother-in-law, the worldly, sophisticated one
who helped negotiate the Treaties of Tianjin and about the only one she got along with. Prince Yi,
whom someone mentioned a while ago, wanted the Dowager assassinated. Not good feeling there.
If you're thinking of the nephew, you mean Guangxu (Kuang-hsu) emperor, the one who sponsored
the 100-Day reforms of 1898.
Ismail Ahmadi: the hunan was headed by zeng guefang and the anwhei was headed by li
hongzhong
Kumiko Takeuchi: Thank you David
Ismail Ahmadi: Hunan army*
David Joseph Persinger: no problem
Teresa Rudine Jones: Thxs, I remember now
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, Yes, David is right. Those armies, led by Zeng Guofan (Hunan) and Li
Hongzhang (Anhwei) were the keys to putting down the Taipings. Remember that this started the
trend toward decentralization and toward more and more power gravitating into Chinese hands (from
the Manchus). This would eventually culminate in the warlord period (1916-1928), but we haven't
gotten there yet.
Jack Hammersmith: I am typing while some of you are answering each other's questions. That's
good. Thanks.
Jack Hammersmith: And if you're an Oakland fan, they behind Denver by two touchdowns. (Does
anyone really care?)
Kumiko Takeuchi: Thank you very much
Jack Hammersmith: That was supposed to read, They ARE behind Denver . . .
Kumiko Takeuchi: Who was Tongwan Guan?
Mary Beth Held: What was the convention of Peking
Jared William Smith: was tonghak rebellion in korea
Ismail Ahmadi: yes
Mary Beth Held: what was the tonghak rebellion
David Joseph Persinger: I think Tongwen Guan was the Interpreters's College
Ismail Ahmadi: rebels threatened korean monarch who then asked for help from china
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, I just gave you the English for this, i.e. Interpreter's Colleges. If I ask it
on the exam, I will either give you the English or the Chinese AND the English. They were the
language schools which the Chinese set up under foreign leadership (WAP Martin, an American,
was a key) to train members of the new "foreign office," the Zongli Yamen--and for that one I just
gave you the Chinese term.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Is this football? Hahahahaha
Anthony Duane Golden: I have in my notes that London rejected the Alcock convention, but what
was it?
Kumiko Takeuchi: Thank you very much
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, The Convention was the "penalty" for the Chinese (or the Manchu
government, if you want to be more precise) failing to ratify the Treaties of Tianjin after they had
negotiated them in 1858. Remember, they negotiated them, stalled, the British went in and
demolished the summer palace, and the Prince Gong negotiated the Convention to finish everything
off. By this time, however, the Chinese had to concede a higher indemnity and other things in this
"add-on" to the Treaties of Tianjin.
Mary Beth Held: thanks
Ismail Ahmadi: what is meant by "the devil doctorines ought to be killed"?
Jared William Smith: are "rice Christians" Chinese Christians or more specific
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, The Tonghak rebellion, while important, wasn't so vital for our
course. It was the rebellion against the Korean monarchy that triggered the Korean monarch to ask
the Chinese to send in troops to protect them. When the Chinese did, in accordance with the Li-Ito
agreement, they did so in such an offensive way to the Japanese that war was the result
Jack Hammersmith: Tony, The Alcock convention was an effort by the British Minister, Rutherford
Alcock, to soften some of the previous treaty terms, especially regarding some storage and tax
aspects of commerce in Hong Kong. When British merchants read the convention, they badgered
the British government until the government agreed not to ratify it. I used it in class as an example of
a Western nation helping to end the "era of better feelings" of the 1860s.
Michael Lee Jensen: so anything happening? or is everyone else here to just watch?
Kumiko Takeuchi: I write down all answers
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, That refers to a document from which I read excerpts in class. Written by
scholar-gentrymen, it was an indictment of the missionaries and an effort to incite the Chinese
against them. I used it around the time I discussed the Tianjin massacre, an example of what could
go wrong (in a bloody sense--the Alcock convention was a mild, diplomatic example) when the
people were stirred against the missionary intrusion.
Ismail Ahmadi: thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Rice Christians are just a term meaning Chinese who converted for
practical reasons. Hungry? They converted for the food they might receive. The nickname they
were given was rice Christians. It meant they weren't authentic converts but just opportunistic ones.
Jared William Smith: ok, what are some of the more important subject areas (ie possible essay
questions)
Ismail Ahmadi: is law of avoidance the one in which the officials were replaced periodically so they
dont become powerful among the locals
Anthony Duane Golden: and also Ismail they were never stationed in their home town
Ismail Ahmadi: thanks
Kumiko Takeuchi: What was China Merchants Steam Navigation Company?
Ismail Ahmadi: can u give us a general idea of what the essay is gonna be on?
Ismail Ahmadi: i mean what subject matters?
Stephen K Michael: any particular dynasty we should know more than another?
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Just let your mind wander. Think about important topics, e.g.,
Confucianism, the bureaucratic state that was traditionally China, the Chinese reaction to the
West--in terms of religion (Christians--Jesuits and others) and merchants (with their demands on
different legal notions, etc.) Think large, because on the essay I am primarily looking for how you
think and what you can put together in terms of the material you've learned. The IDs are more your
facutal command of specifics, although you need to know how they fit into a larger picture, too, i.e.,
their significance.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, Yes, it meant circulation or rotation of officials from one place to another.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Maybe one of the debates we had in class....
Ana M Areas-Fodor: of a "general" sort of nature, for example regarding British view on trade
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, China Merchants is an example of the government-supervision,
merchant operation system that characterized the self-strenthening of Li--at least the
"industrialization" part of that self-strengthening. I know that you would not be able to say very much
about this specific company, but you could (hopefully) go into greater detail on Li's "industrial
empire" and some of those things I covered in class.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, No. Sorry. If I were going to do that, I would feel honor bound to tell
everyone. (Isn't honor great!)
Michael Lee Jensen: is the essay going to be along the lines of our opinion on a topic, or will it be a
question with a specifically right or wrong answer?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: probably about our thinking process and what we learned, the little terms just
help us build our essay, that's my opinion at least
Ismail Ahmadi: possibly
David Joseph Persinger: This thing about "squeeze," did it have anything to do with local officials
ripping off merchants under the Canton System?
Jared William Smith: yes, but also bribes that had to be paid
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, Yes, you should be able at least to identify the major dynasties (list)
and to say a couple of things about them. I think there were a few, e.g., Zhou, Qin, Han, Tang,
Qing, that you should be able to say more about. One of the sources there would be Sextants,
though I did cover some more thoroughly in lecture, e.g., Qin.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: I''m sorry, I asked this before, Mix doesn't let me scroll up. What was the rites
controversy?
Anthony Duane Golden: Anan can't you arrow up
Kumiko Takeuchi: what is 10000 word memorial?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Thanks, Anthony. That was the problem
Ana M Areas-Fodor: (I wasn't arrowing up)
Mary Beth Held: this is horrible that i don't know but what was the Tianjin Massacres about?
Ismail Ahmadi: the killin of 13 french and 3 russian missionaries
Kumiko Takeuchi: what is Forbidden city?
David Joseph Persinger: the imperial court resided in the forbidden city in beijing
Jack Hammersmith: Michael, I think you've been around a while, haven't you? Essays, as I said in
class, may be the straight-forward sort of Discuss the basic ideas of Daoism and Confucianism and
how they differed. Or it could be a simulation: You are a Chinese emperor in 19th century China.
Discuss your views on opium and trade with the West . . Or I might give you a quote: "China in the
19th century was hopelessly backward and ignorant. More than that, the Chinese never tried to
resist the West." Agree or disagree with this statement, supporting your ideas with concrete,
historical data. Stuff like that.
Ismail Ahmadi: its where the emperor lived with his concubines and eunuchs
Stephen K Michael: under what dynasty's was the forbidden city used?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Forbidden City was were the emperor lived
Anthony Duane Golden: Imperial Complex outside Beijing, (after the Ming Dynasty whose capital
was Nanjing)
Ismail Ahmadi: built by ming
Anthony Duane Golden: sounds good
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, First, I don't understand why you can't scroll. Mine works ok that way. But,
to get to your question, the rites controversy was over the issue of whether or not "ancestor
worship" could be observed by Chinese Christians. The Jesuits said yes, because it is reverence but
not truly worhsip. The Franciscians and Dominicans said no, because only a "pointy-headed
intellectual Jesuit" would fail to see that it is worship.
Ismail Ahmadi: who united china for the first time was it zhou dynasty or Qin
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, The 10,000 word memorial was organized by Kang Youwei and was
an effort to get the emperor to stop the treaty with the Japanese in 1895 and continue the fighting.
The memorial (petition) urged the continued fighting with the emperor moving the capital far inland
and telling the Japanese to "come get us." Along with this strategy went a reform movement, so that
China would ultimately be strengthened.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Oh! ok, so basically, it was the disagreement among iberians jesuits and
dominicans/franciscans. i remember, thank you!
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, Yes, Ismail is right--the episode involving French nuns who ran an
orphanage for Chinese orphans--children without parents, Kumiko--I don't know whether you know
that word. Anyway, a crowd of Chinese gathered before the orphanage, agitated no doubt by the
scholar-gentry. The French official ordered the crowd to leave or he would shoot. They did not; he
did. He missed; they didn't. And out of this came a nasty episode with all these deaths. Do you
remember it now?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: but the 10,000 wasn't successful, right?
Mary Beth Held: ok that is what I thought
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, It was built in the Ming and continued, of course, throughout the
Qing. Kumiko, Ismail has basically and briefly answered your question. It was called forbidden
because non-Chinese were forbidden to be there, and only the emperor and his court were allowed
to live there permanently.
Kumiko Takeuchi: ok thank you
Rita Susanne Edelman: Was the Lady Hughes the British Ship? I have it in my notes, marked with
a star but with no explanation.
Mary Beth Held: Rita, I believe it was
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, You are right. The 10,000-word memorial was not accepted by the
emperor. The fighting did not continue, and he didn't move the capital inland--as Chiang Kaishek
later will do. But he did try to do some of the reforming--the 100 Day reforms. Of course, they didn't
succeed either.
Jack Hammersmith: Rita, Yes.
Rita Susanne Edelman: thanks,why was it important again?
Jack Hammersmith: I guess I should read more of your answers before I type. I could save myself a
lot of effort!result
Jack Hammersmith: Tony, The Alcock convention was an effort by the British Minister, Rutherford
Alcock, to soften some of the previous treaty terms, especially regarding some storage and tax
aspects of commerce in Hong Kong. When British merchants read the convention, they badgered
the British government until the government agreed not to ratify it. I used it in class as an example of
a Western nation helping to end the "era of better feelings" of the 1860s.
Michael Lee Jensen: so anything happening? or is everyone else here to just watch?
Kumiko Takeuchi: I write down all answers
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, That refers to a document from which I read excerpts in class. Written by
scholar-gentrymen, it was an indictment of the missionaries and an effort to incite the Chinese
against them. I used it around the time I discussed the Tianjin massacre, an example of what could
go wrong (in a bloody sense--the Alcock convention was a mild, diplomatic example) when the
people were stirred against the missionary intrusion.
Ismail Ahmadi: thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Rice Christians are just a term meaning Chinese who converted for
practical reasons. Hungry? They converted for the food they might receive. The nickname they
were given was rice Christians. It meant they weren't authentic converts but just opportunistic ones.
Jared William Smith: ok, what are some of the more important subject areas (ie possible essay
questions)
Ismail Ahmadi: is law of avoidance the one in which the officials were replaced periodically so they
dont become powerful among the locals
Anthony Duane Golden: and also Ismail they were never stationed in their home town
Ismail Ahmadi: thanks
Kumiko Takeuchi: What was China Merchants Steam Navigation Company?
Ismail Ahmadi: can u give us a general idea of what the essay is gonna be on?
Ismail Ahmadi: i mean what subject matters?
Stephen K Michael: any particular dynasty we should know more than another?
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Just let your mind wander. Think about important topics, e.g.,
Confucianism, the bureaucratic state that was traditionally China, the Chinese reaction to the
West--in terms of religion (Christians--Jesuits and others) and merchants (with their demands on
different legal notions, etc.) Think large, because on the essay I am primarily looking for how you
think and what you can put together in terms of the material you've learned. The IDs are more your
facutal command of specifics, although you need to know how they fit into a larger picture, too, i.e.,
their significance.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, Yes, it meant circulation or rotation of officials from one place to another.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Maybe one of the debates we had in class....
Ana M Areas-Fodor: of a "general" sort of nature, for example regarding British view on trade
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, China Merchants is an example of the government-supervision,
merchant operation system that characterized the self-strenthening of Li--at least the
"industrialization" part of that self-strengthening. I know that you would not be able to say very much
about this specific company, but you could (hopefully) go into greater detail on Li's "industrial
empire" and some of those things I covered in class.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, No. Sorry. If I were going to do that, I would feel honor bound to tell
everyone. (Isn't honor great!)
Michael Lee Jensen: is the essay going to be along the lines of our opinion on a topic, or will it be a
question with a specifically right or wrong answer?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: probably about our thinking process and what we learned, the little terms just
help us build our essay, that's my opinion at least
Ismail Ahmadi: possibly
David Joseph Persinger: This thing about "squeeze," did it have anything to do with local officials
ripping off merchants under the Canton System?
Jared William Smith: yes, but also bribes that had to be paid
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, Yes, you should be able at least to identify the major dynasties (list)
and to say a couple of things about them. I think there were a few, e.g., Zhou, Qin, Han, Tang,
Qing, that you should be able to say more about. One of the sources there would be Sextants,
though I did cover some more thoroughly in lecture, e.g., Qin.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: I''m sorry, I asked this before, Mix doesn't let me scroll up. What was the rites
controversy?
Anthony Duane Golden: Anan can't you arrow up
Kumiko Takeuchi: what is 10000 word memorial?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Thanks, Anthony. That was the problem
Ana M Areas-Fodor: (I wasn't arrowing up)
Mary Beth Held: this is horrible that i don't know but what was the Tianjin Massacres about?
Ismail Ahmadi: the killin of 13 french and 3 russian missionaries
Kumiko Takeuchi: what is Forbidden city?
David Joseph Persinger: the imperial court resided in the forbidden city in beijing
Jack Hammersmith: Michael, I think you've been around a while, haven't you? Essays, as I said in
class, may be the straight-forward sort of Discuss the basic ideas of Daoism and Confucianism and
how they differed. Or it could be a simulation: You are a Chinese emperor in 19th century China.
Discuss your views on opium and trade with the West . . Or I might give you a quote: "China in the
19th century was hopelessly backward and ignorant. More than that, the Chinese never tried to
resist the West." Agree or disagree with this statement, supporting your ideas with concrete,
historical data. Stuff like that.
Ismail Ahmadi: its where the emperor lived with his concubines and eunuchs
Stephen K Michael: under what dynasty's was the forbidden city used?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Forbidden City was were the emperor lived
Anthony Duane Golden: Imperial Complex outside Beijing, (after the Ming Dynasty whose capital
was Nanjing)
Ismail Ahmadi: built by ming
Anthony Duane Golden: sounds good
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, First, I don't understand why you can't scroll. Mine works ok that way. But,
to get to your question, the rites controversy was over the issue of whether or not "ancestor
worship" could be observed by Chinese Christians. The Jesuits said yes, because it is reverence but
not truly worhsip. The Franciscians and Dominicans said no, because only a "pointy-headed
intellectual Jesuit" would fail to see that it is worship.
Ismail Ahmadi: who united china for the first time was it zhou dynasty or Qin
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, The 10,000 word memorial was organized by Kang Youwei and was
an effort to get the emperor to stop the treaty with the Japanese in 1895 and continue the fighting.
The memorial (petition) urged the continued fighting with the emperor moving the capital far inland
and telling the Japanese to "come get us." Along with this strategy went a reform movement, so that
China would ultimately be strengthened.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Oh! ok, so basically, it was the disagreement among iberians jesuits and
dominicans/franciscans. i remember, thank you!
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, Yes, Ismail is right--the episode involving French nuns who ran an
orphanage for Chinese orphans--children without parents, Kumiko--I don't know whether you know
that word. Anyway, a crowd of Chinese gathered before the orphanage, agitated no doubt by the
scholar-gentry. The French official ordered the crowd to leave or he would shoot. They did not; he
did. He missed; they didn't. And out of this came a nasty episode with all these deaths. Do you
remember it now?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: but the 10,000 wasn't successful, right?
Mary Beth Held: ok that is what I thought
Jack Hammersmith: Stephen, It was built in the Ming and continued, of course, throughout the
Qing. Kumiko, Ismail has basically and briefly answered your question. It was called forbidden
because non-Chinese were forbidden to be there, and only the emperor and his court were allowed
to live there permanently.
Kumiko Takeuchi: ok thank you
Rita Susanne Edelman: Was the Lady Hughes the British Ship? I have it in my notes, marked with
a star but with no explanation.
Mary Beth Held: Rita, I believe it was
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, You are right. The 10,000-word memorial was not accepted by the
emperor. The fighting did not continue, and he didn't move the capital inland--as Chiang Kaishek
later will do. But he did try to do some of the reforming--the 100 Day reforms. Of course, they didn't
succeed either.
Jack Hammersmith: Rita, Yes.
Rita Susanne Edelman: thanks,why was it important again?
Jack Hammersmith: I guess I should read more of your answers before I type. I could save myself a
lot of effort!
Ismail Ahmadi: sorry for jumping in and answering questions every now and then
Anthony Duane Golden: HMS Lady Hughes, where the cannon fire caused the death of 2 chinese
and the Brits refused to give over those responible. When they did the foreigners were killed in sight
of the crew. This horriified the westeners and they vowed to not turn anyone over to the Chinese
again
Ana M Areas-Fodor: I for one like it a lot, thanks Ismail!
Ismail Ahmadi: no problem
Rita Susanne Edelman: thank you i remember now.
Jack Hammersmith: Rita, The Lady Hughes episode or affair was important because it proved an
occasion when the Chinese demanded that the sailor who had fired a canon and accidentally killed
a Chinese be handed over for Chinese justice. The British finally did this when threatened with
having their trade cut off. When they did, the Chinese executed the fellow. The English concluded
that they would never again put themselves in such a position; they would try their own people
according to their laws. The Chinese concluded that the British would always give in, if threatened
with a loss of trade.
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, No, that's great. It's very helpful.
Rita Susanne Edelman: thanks
Ismail Ahmadi: thank you
Ismail Ahmadi: i need an explanation for yinyang
Ismail Ahmadi: have an idea but not sure if it is right
Jack Hammersmith: Who's going to help out Ismail now?
Jack Hammersmith: Try it.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: OK
Ana M Areas-Fodor: The yingyang, is it the concept of light and dark?
Stephen K Michael: positive and negative
Michael Lee Jensen: Yinyang is a concept and its opposite
Mary Beth Held: what does kowtow mean?
Michael Lee Jensen: shows that everything needs to be in balance
Ismail Ahmadi: ok thanks
Michael Lee Jensen: and also that there is a portion of one thing in its opposite
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Yes, Mary Beth that was what I was just typing: What is Kowtow?
Jack Hammersmith: You're both right. It's the idea of opposites, and, as Michael just said, that one
isn't good and the other bad, but either is incomplete without the other. So you need both to have
good health and good balance in your life--
Ismail Ahmadi: chinese custom of touching the ground with your forehead
Anthony Duane Golden: bumping your head to the ground in reverence to the Emporeor 3 times
Ismail Ahmadi: thanks
Jared William Smith: shows you are nothing compared to emperor
Anthony Duane Golden: ouch, and your back is strong
Jared William Smith: no you lay on the ground
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, Not just touching but banging--Tony said bumping, and that's close.
In a series of three bangs or bumps--three times three--you sprawled on the floor and showed just
how humble you were in the presence of the emperor. As Mel Brooks would say, "It's good to be the
emperor!"
Mary Beth Held: oh ok
Jack Hammersmith: In modern terms, Oakland is now kowtowing to Denver (21-0).
Michael Lee Jensen: seriously
Michael Lee Jensen: this game sucks
Ismail Ahmadi: hahha true
Jack Hammersmith: Basically, I think most of you have a pretty good grasp of what has come up
this evening. Other questions?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Yes, we have lots of questions
Mary Beth Held: i think this helped a lot
Jack Hammersmith: OK, fire away.
Ismail Ahmadi: yes very helpful and thank you for your time Dr Hammersmith
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Ok, how important is the footbinding article? and also, what ever was decided
about the e-reserves that turned out to be for Japan instead of China?
Ana M Areas-Fodor: Yes, thanks very much, Dr. Hammersmith
Jack Hammersmith: I didn't mean you have to stop, although I would like to take a quick break and
check my e-mail. I'll be back in one minute.
Anthony Duane Golden: did you answer what "the devils doctrines ought to be killed" was
Anthony Duane Golden: anybody know
Ismail Ahmadi: i have the answer to that hold on
Anthony Duane Golden: yee hah
Anna Michele DiBattista: hello
Jack Hammersmith: OK, I'm back. Nothing of importance on e-mail.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: That was those intellectual, scholar-gentry groups firing against missionaries
(figuratively, i mean), wasn't it?
Anna Michele DiBattista: sorry my computer froze
Jared William Smith: yes i think it was writing used by scholar gentry to incite the public to riot
against the missionaries
Ismail Ahmadi: yes thats it
Anthony Duane Golden: thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Ana, I won't ask specific questions from the article, and the wrong e-reserve
article will not, of course, be on the exam. My mistake.
Stephen K Michael: anyone know if its going to rain tom?
Ismail Ahmadi: foreign mud=opium is that all?
Ismail Ahmadi: yeah it will in the morning
Ana M Areas-Fodor: oh ok, thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, Yes, a Western name for opium, so if I asked that, either everybody gets
a give-me (unlikely, huh?) or you tie it in to opium generally and talk a little about the opium problem,
etc.
Mary Beth Held: Could you lead me in the direction of what I might need to know about Macao
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, If you can scroll up, I answered that early in the "chat." If you can't,
let me know.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: What is meant by this: "Jehol"?
Ismail Ahmadi: not on the exam
Jack Hammersmith: Scratched--be sure to check the ones I took off.
Anthony Duane Golden: Macao, Portugese entrepot across the Pearl River Estuary from Hong Kong
Ana M Areas-Fodor: thanks, ok
Anthony Duane Golden: no prob
Jared William Smith: what was the treaty of the bogue
Teresa Rudine Jones: will the article about the Great Chinese Revolution be covered?
Jared William Smith: was it follow up to nanjing
Jack Hammersmith: Teresa, Not specifically.
Kumiko Takeuchi: WHo is Ronglu?
Jack Hammersmith: Jared, Yes. It was a supplemental treaty and dealt with extraterritoriality.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: it's the lover of cixi, dowager empress
Ismail Ahmadi: Dowager's lover
Stephen K Michael: ronglu was dowagers lover who saved her from an assasination plot
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, Again, I did that one earlier. If you can scroll up, you can see it. It was
fairly early in the evening.
Kumiko Takeuchi: Thank you
Anthony Duane Golden: I think you cannot view chat from before you entered
Ismail Ahmadi: yeah i cant either
Anthony Duane Golden: can this be printed out?
Jack Hammersmith: OK, maybe that's right. I didn't know that. Kumiko has been on line, though,
since almost the beginning, I think.
Anna Michele DiBattista: yes you have to hold down ctrl c
Anna Michele DiBattista: and then paste to word
Jack Hammersmith: Anthony, The students had trouble trying to do this the other night, but
hopefully Anna has the answer.
Anthony Duane Golden: shi shi (chinese for thanks)
Anna Michele DiBattista: yeah it works i just tried it
Jack Hammersmith: OK, here's a money-maker, Anna. You can sell copies to students who didn't
make it tonight!
Anna Michele DiBattista: oh good idea.........haha
Teresa Rudine Jones (whisper):is ctrl + c all that you did
Anna Michele DiBattista: yeah that is it
Ismail Ahmadi: Dr Hammersmith is there a time limit on this session
Anna Michele DiBattista: nope
Anna Michele DiBattista: i have almost everything since almost the begining
Stephen K Michael: thanks for the info, see you tomorrow
Anna Michele DiBattista: if anyone missed the info
Kumiko Takeuchi: Anna, Somebody asked about ever victorious army?
Anna Michele DiBattista: hold on
Kumiko Takeuchi: ok
Jack Hammersmith: Ismail, I said 11:00 would be the absolute cut-off, but I'm sensing a real
slow-down. I will stay on longer, if you have questions, but I do have several things to do, if you are
about all done with this phase of your study.
Jack Hammersmith: Joao, I don't know how to do what Anna can do. At least, when I tried it the
other night, it didn't work. Perhaps she can send you the "transcript."
Teresa Rudine Jones: Anna, will you email it as an attachment
Anthony Duane Golden: I think it was an army of foreign mercinaries that prevented the Taipings
from over-running ShangHai
Ismail Ahmadi: yup
Kumiko Takeuchi: thank you Anna
Joao Correia Silva Neto (whisper):Anna could you please send me a copy, I was working until 9:30
I could not get the biginning
Ismail Ahmadi: thank you Dr Hammersmith and everyone for the help, see you tomm.
Anna Michele DiBattista: yeah
Rita Susanne Edelman: thank you
Joao Correia Silva Neto (whisper):Thanks
Anthony Duane Golden: good night and thanks
Joao Correia Silva Neto: thanks everyone
Jack Hammersmith: Kumiko, No, no one asked that. The Ever Victorious Army was a small army of
about 100 Filiipinos that the merchants of Shanghai paid for in order to protect Shanghai from the
Taipaings during the Taiping Rebellion. Foir a while it was commanded by an American, and later it
was headed by Charles Gordon, a fairly famous British adventurer--if he hadn't been famous,
Charlton Heston would never have played him in the movies!
Anna Michele DiBattista: anyone who wants a copy type in your address and i will try to send it as
an attachment
Mary Beth Held: yes please do Anna
Kumiko Takeuchi: thank you very much!!!
Teresa Rudine Jones: Anna, my email is tjones3@mix.wvu.edu
Mary Beth Held: my computer froze and I had to restart
Teresa Rudine Jones: Thanks so much
Joao Correia Silva Neto: joaoneto1@adelphia.net
Mary Beth Held: here is my address mheld1@mix.wvu.edu
Rita Susanne Edelman: redelman@mix.wvu.edu
Joao Correia Silva Neto: jcorreia@mix.wvu.edu
Michael Lee Jensen: michael.jensen7@us.army.mil
David Eton Holmes: Anna mine is dholmes@mix.wvu.edu
Anna Michele DiBattista: it might take a few trys
Anna Michele DiBattista: so be patient
Joao Correia Silva Neto: ok
Joao Correia Silva Neto: thanks
Teresa Rudine Jones: fine
Jack Hammersmith: You've just become the most popular student at WVU, Anna!
Mary Beth Held: One last question Dr. Hammersmith
Jack Hammersmith: OK
Mary Beth Held: What in particular is so important about Macao?
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, Well, it, like Hong Kong, was claimed early by one of the Southern
Barbarian nations, in this instance Portugal. It continued to be a "haven" for foreigners--basically out
of the reach of the Chinese. It retained this special nature until 1999 when, two years after Hong
Kong, it reverted to Chinese control. So, basically, it symbolized the old colonial past for a very long
time--and at the end of the 20th century the successful effort by China to regain control over "her
territory."
Mary Beth Held: ok thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Also, as I said, it later became sort of a floating Reno or Monte Carlo, a haven
for gambling.
Ismail Ahmadi: sorry for jumping in and answering questions every now and thenMary Beth Held: One last question Dr. Hammersmith
Jack Hammersmith: OK
Mary Beth Held: What in particular is so important about Macao?
Jack Hammersmith: Mary Beth, Well, it, like Hong Kong, was claimed early by one of the Southern
Barbarian nations, in this instance Portugal. It continued to be a "haven" for foreigners--basically out
of the reach of the Chinese. It retained this special nature until 1999 when, two years after Hong
Kong, it reverted to Chinese control. So, basically, it symbolized the old colonial past for a very long
time--and at the end of the 20th century the successful effort by China to regain control over "her
territory."
Mary Beth Held: ok thanks
Jack Hammersmith: Also, as I said, it later became sort of a floating Reno or Monte Carlo, a haven
for gambling.
Jack Hammersmith: I understand it's exciting and sinful. Tony has been there, so we should ask
him. Professors are crummy on sin.
Anthony Duane Golden: it was very nice, hardly any sin at all
Mary Beth Held: ha ha
Anthony Duane Golden: I'm not having any luck printing this
Rita Susanne Edelman: me either
Anthony Duane Golden: control c does nothing
Jack Hammersmith: That was my problem
Anthony Duane Golden: I can't copy as text either to dump in another file
Teresa Rudine Jones: ctrl-c works but it doesn't show up like it usually does
Anthony Duane Golden: but wouldn't my printer print regardless
Teresa Rudine Jones: use ctrl-c, go to word, and paste, I just did it, but you have to highlight
everything first
Jack Hammersmith: OK, well good luck. See you all in the morning.
Ana M Areas-Fodor: ok
Anthony Duane Golden: I did and when I select to paste the highlight goes away
Ana M Areas-Fodor: thanks