GEORGE HOGARTH, Ostler
SAMUEL FLEMING, Soap Boiler
Liverpool, Lancashire
These two men have caused my sister and me to scratch our heads and tear our hair more than any other in the last twenty years.

George Hogarth ( a Groom/Ostler by occupation) married Jane Gill, a widow in Liverpool in 1821. They produced three children ( 2 Williams and 1 George) between 1822-1827. Those are the only facts me and my eldest sister know about our 4x Gt Grandparents. George and Jane then vanished from the published records so far as we know.  They don't appear in any census records in Great Britain, no baptism or burial records for the parents and nothing in civil registration in Liverpool or Birkenhead where their children settled.  

Until a George Hoggarth (Ostler) appeared in Surrey from a marriage in London in 1828 onwards including a death in 1874. The George in Surrey was born in Barber Green nr Broughton in Furness, Lancashire in 1801 according to census records. A death in 1874 gives his occupation as an Ostler. Are the two Georges the same person?  This is where me and my sister disagree. I think they are the same person, the traditional simplest answer being the correct one.. My sister thinks there are burial records that we haven't seen that will provide answers, or George & Jane have emigrated - equally valid and equally simple answers.

My question is, if the two Georges are the same, what happened to Jane, George jnr & William between 1827 and the 1841 census. If Jane had died, who did the children live with.

As a seperate issue, Jane was a widow when she married Robert Gill in 1815 in Liverpool, her married name was Griffin and her first marriage has not been found yet, neither has a death or burial.




George Hogarth
born: unknown
christened: unknown
married: at St Peter's Liverpool 10 Dec 1821 to Jane Gill, widow both being OTP
1st child christened George 18 Aug 1822 at St Peter's, Liverpool. George's occupation - Hostler at Thomas St
        1st child married: Letitia Fleming, a minor 28 Oct 1839 St Nicholas, Liverpool. George's father named George Hogarth, Groom
2nd child christened William 6 Jan 1826 at St Paul, St Pauls Square, Liverpool. George's occupation - Labourer at Thomas St
3rd child christened William 18 Aug 1827 at St Peter's, Liverpool. George's occupation - Groom at Parr St
death/burial: unknown
1841-1901 Census: not found
1825 & 1827 Liverpool Directory: not found



George Hoggarth
born: about 1801
christened:  George Hogarth 1 May 1801 Cartmel, Lancashire (IGI) Father: Benjamin Hogarth, Bamber Green (Parish record)
married: Eliza Carker 26 Mar 1828, St Mark, Kennington, London (IGI)

1841 England Census
Orchard Row
George Hoggarth 40 Coachman No
Eliza Hoggarth 35 Yes
Jane Hoggarth 11 Yes
Benjamin 10 Yes
Eliza Hoggarth 6 Yes
Emma Hoggarth 5 Yes
Ann Hoggarth 3 Yes.

4. 1851 England census (Ancestry.com. 1851 England Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: MyFamily.com, Inc., 2005. Original data: Census Returns of England and Wales, 1851. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA): Public Record Office (PRO), 1851. Data imaged from the National Archives, London, England.), Class: HO107; Piece: 1580; Folio: ; Page: ; GSU roll: 174816. Civil parish: Camberwell Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel County/Island: Surrey
4 Banbury Place
George Hoggarth Head Marr 53 Groom Lancashire
Eliza Hoggarth Wife Marr 48 Surrey Farnham
Benjamin Hoggarth son U 20 Gardener Surrey Lambeth
Eliza Hoggarth dau U 17 Occ ? Surrey Camberwell
Amy Hoggarth dau 13 ?? Surrey Camberwell
George Hoggarth son 9 scholar Surrey Camberwell
.
5. 1861 England census (Ancestry.com. 1861 England Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: MyFamily.com, Inc., 2005. Original data: Census Returns of England and Wales, 1861. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA): Public Record Office (PRO), 1861. Data imaged from the National Archives, London, England), Class: RG9; Piece: 614; Folio: 103; Page: 9; GSU roll: 542671. Civil parish: Broadwater Town: Worthing County/Island: Sussex
9 Marine Terrace
James Town H M 34 Ashington Sussex
Jane Town W M 31 Clapham Surrey
Ann Town dau 3 Worthing Sussex
Thomas Town son 1 Worthing Sussex
Mary Town mother wid 55 House keeper Warminghurst Sussex
Thomas Town brother 24 Ashington Sussex
John Town brother 21 Ashington Sussex
George Hoggarth father in law 59 Helper in stable Broughton Lancashire

1871 England Census
Civil parish: Camberwell St Giles Ecclesiastical parish: St Emmanuel Town: Camberwell County/Island: Surrey 7 Orchard Row
George Hoggarth H M 68 Ostler Lancashire Bamber Green
Eliza Hoggarth wife mar 69 Surrey
Eliza Hoggarth dau unm 36 charwoman  Surrey Camberwell

died: 14 Mar 1874 George Hoggarth, male 73 yrs, Occupation: Ostler. cause of death Bronchitis 3 weeks. Eliza Hoggarth present at death.

Samuel Fleming appears in the 1841 Census in Liverpool as a 73 year old Soap Boiler from Ireland. With him are Isaac, a painter age 16 and Samuel age 2 - both born in Lancashire. In the same building is Richard Fleming, age 76 from Ireland and possibly Samuels brother.
Samuel Fleming married Martha and had the following children
Letitia Fleming chr 28 May 1820 St Peters, Liverpool
Jane Dawson Fleming chr 7 Aug 1825 St Peters, Liverpool. dau of Samuel Fleming, mariner & Martha. Brick St
Edward Fleming chr 30 Mar 1828 St Peters, Liverpool

1841 Census Liverpool, Pye Place
Saml Fleming 73 Soap Boiler Ireland
Isaac Fleming 16 Painter Yes
Saml Fleming 2 Yes
Cath Hannah 40 Ireland
Sarah Connelly 20 Ireland
Mary Ann Connelly 6 months Yes
Richard Fleming 76 Lab Ireland

Then Clare received the death certificate for Samuel Fleming who died in 1844 in Liverpool, and the head scratching began

11 May 1844 5 Grenville St North, Liverpool Samuel Fleming, male, 54 years, Coal Dealer, Typhoid Fever 8 days George Hogarth present at death 46 Titchfield St, Liverpool, 11th May 1844

The Register Office have insisted the details are correct and that they don't make mistakes.

Clare also found the will administration at Preston Record Office for Samuel and it named Letitia as lawful kin
Samuel Fleming, widower, died 11 May 1844 know all men by these present, that we, George Hogarth of 46 Portland St Liverpool, boiler maker, Millicent Robinson of 3 Creswell Place in Berlington St Liverpool, Drysalter, William Glover, 14 Summerseat Liverpool, Oil Dealer bound in the sum of One Hundred Pounds The condition is of this obligation that Letitia Hogarth, the wife of the above bounden George Hogarth, the natural and lawful daughter and one of the next of kin and of all and singular the goods and chattels and credits of Samuel FLeming, late of Liverpool, aforesaid Soap Boiler and widower deceased to make a true and perfect inventory of all singular the goods and chattels and credits of the said deceased. Signed by the 3 above Letitia took the usual oath intestates personnal estate and effects were valued under £50

A newspaper report on the stabbing of George Hogarth by George McComb names Letitia Fleming and her brother Isaac. It also says that Letitia was 'a disreputable character' and Isaac already had convictions for picking pockets

We now have the baptism for the younger Samuel from the census
Samuel Fleming & Ann
Samuel Fleming born 25 Dec 1838 chr 14 Dec 1846 St Peters, Liverpool

The marriage for Samuel Fleming in 1838 was next and caused more head scratching

6 dec 1838 Church of St David by License
Samuel Fleming of full age Bachelor Gentleman, 15 Blake St, Liverpool, William Fleming, Gentleman. Anne Moore of full age Spinster, 15 Blake St, Liverpool, Thomas Moore, Farmer Witness: Martha Gibson,? H Gibson anne signed with mark