FreedomFries - 02:03am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#2 of 72) That's what I mean: bringing down the US economically and as far as the standard and the quality of living are concerned: a Nazi-like police state, persecution of political opponents, permanent fear of terrorist attacks, a return to racial discrimination and maybe the start of a racial war.

fluffyPillows - 02:06am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#3 of 72) Now, why does the Israeli lobby want all that?

samimandel - 02:08am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#4 of 72) He means they'd cause it inadvertently. Of course, they would not want to degrade the military power of their strongest protector.

fluffyPillows - 02:10am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#5 of 72) Well, they'd certainly degrade the military power of the US if they went about ticking off race wars and such. That doesn't sound very smart.

bessaroth - 02:12am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#6 of 72) THe Dow went up 81 points today.

FreedomFries - 02:13am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#7 of 72) Who said they are smart? Israel has lived in a state of war for 50 years, although long ago its neighbours have offered to recognize its existence and its LEGAL borders.

fluffyPillows - 02:16am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#8 of 72) Well, it certainly doesn't appear to be in Israel's best interests to cultivate a "Nazi police state" in the US, does it?

FreedomFries - 02:20am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#9 of 72) As a matter of fact, it is in the best interests of the Israel's right wing (the likudists) to transform US into a police stace, that persecutes any opponents of the American extreme right (the neo-cons).

samimandel - 03:06am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#10 of 72) I'll buy that. I see totalitarian tendencies on both sides. I think there are people interested in transforming America into New-Israel: a state under siege, who oppresses ethnic minorities and political opponents, and hence triggers an increase in resentment, which leads to increased oppression, etc: a self-destrutive avalanche effect. Apparently, many Americans have already lost thir jobs for questioning the policies of their rulers.

DavidJWalker - 03:07am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#11 of 72) Dream on, moonbats, dream on!

westriver - 03:09am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#12 of 72) Dream on, moonbats, dream on! Isn't that typical? Freeper has nothing to say and has to respond.

FreedomFries - 03:12am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#13 of 72) Sami, you are absolutely right. Cases in point: Donohue and Maher. But there are many more. Have you seen "Bowling for Colombine"?

fluffyPillows - 03:14am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#14 of 72) I don't remember Bowling for Colombine having much to do with Israel. Did I miss anything?

DavidJWalker - 03:15am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#15 of 72) Not freeper, westriver. Bigoted xenophobic racist web-footed sheepshagger, but not freeper. Definitely! You are all just too funny for words, with your delicious fantasies!

aporos - 03:15am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#16 of 72) Apparently, many Americans have already lost thir jobs for questioning the policies of their rulers. I did. I was subjected to a lie detector test and then sodium pentothal. When the truth was discovered, I was terminated. I'm lucky to be alive.

fluffyPillows - 03:19am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#17 of 72) That's terrible, aporos. Were you also forced to eat your own children? I've heard there's a bit of that going around too.

samimandel - 03:24am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#18 of 72) Fries, I saw Michael Moores movie, indeed. He tries to prove that America's high crime rate is due to the culture of internal (the right to wear arms) and external violence (wars of aggression)preached by most political leaders (both Republican and Democrat). But I liked more his speech on the movie's DVD. As an Irish Catholic, Moore is wondering what sort of God Bush is praying to. It doesn't seem like the Christian God. It's perhaps Shiva or Nemesis?

jackrabbitslim - 03:28am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#19 of 72) I thought his point had more to do with sense of fear that the media and government instill in this country...and he's right...it's sad what theyve done.

aporos - 03:28am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#20 of 72) Not to worry, Fluffy, I was offered my old job back after I agreed to write "I love Bush" a thousand times.

ipsa - 03:30am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#21 of 72) You always seemed so principaled...!

samimandel - 03:34am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#22 of 72) Fluffy, Moore thinks high US crime rate is caused by both internal and external violence. I think it's true that if it wasn't for the US Israeli lobby, the US would be now at peace with the rest of the world. I'n not talking about official wars. US is strong enough to win most of them. But US has become the object of hatred of a large section of mankind. It results in terrorism and guerilla wars like those in Iraq and Afganistan.

fluffyPillows - 03:41am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#23 of 72) North Korea is antagonistic toward the US because of the Israeli lobby? What about conflicts in Cuba, and Taiwan, and Northern Ireland?

FreedomFries - 03:42am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#24 of 72) Sami, what's your opinion about 9/11? Has Bush got something to do with it, or it's the result of the ME policy carried out by a number of administrations, both Republican and Democrat? I think the planning for 9/11 started during Clinton (or possibly, even during Bush Sr.), but it was Bush's unconditional support for Ariel Sharon's crimes that made the attack unavoidable.

FreedomFries - 03:46am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#25 of 72) Fluffy, Yes, North Korea is considered a danger by Israel, because they produce long-range missiles and probably nuclear weapons, as well. It's a poor country that may feel inclined to sell them to anyone, including Arabs. It's more a case of US being antagonistic against N.Korea than the other way around.

brooklyny - 03:47am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#26 of 72) "The American Israeli lobby".... How nicely opaque! Anyone want to spell that, in four letters?

FreedomFries - 03:48am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#27 of 72) brook, Noam?... I don't think so.

fluffyPillows - 03:48am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#28 of 72) "The American Israeli lobby".... How nicely opaque! Anyone want to spell that, in four letters? b-u-n-k?

ipsa - 03:49am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#29 of 72) It would be worth 42 points in Scrabble, if you got it on a triple word score...

brooklyny - 03:50am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#30 of 72) chuckle

FreedomFries - 03:53am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#31 of 72) Fluffy, It won't work. I never said that all America's problems or antipathies are caused by AIPAC. Cuba is considered a danger because it could spread socialist ideas both outside and inside US.

samimandel - 04:05am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#32 of 72) Fries, to answer your question, yes, I also think 9/11 would have been avoided if Bush had given at least a ray of hope for the removal of the US troops from the Middle East and for the widthdrawal of Israel from Palestine. In fact, he did exactly the opposite. I think there is a good chance Gore may have prevented 9/11, and what followed (Afganistan, Iraq).

felixsulla - 04:21am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#33 of 72) samimandel - What logic did you use to come up with that half-ass theory? They had already tried to demolish the WTC once, bombed the USS Cole and blew up two African embassies before GWB.

samimandel - 04:57am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#34 of 72) There were signs during the electoral campaign that Gore would bring a bit of ethics in the US foreign policy. It may have avoided 9/11, in fact I think there was a very good chance, based on a couple of his speeches. Yes, there were terrorist attempts during Clinton, too. After all, he named two rabid Zionists as "arbiters" of the Israel/Palestine peace negotiations.

AJSch0ll - 04:59am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#35 of 72) After all, he named two rabid Zionists as "arbiters" of the Israel/Palestine peace negotiations. Is anyone who does not cheerlead the destruction of Israel a "rabid Zionist" to you?

samimandel - 05:05am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#36 of 72) Nevertheless, a fair person does not name 2 Jewish people as "referees" of negotiations between Jews and any other political entity. That's why they failed, not just because of Arafat (not that I'm a fan of Arafat, either).

AJSch0ll - 05:08am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#37 of 72) a fair person does not name 2 Jewish people as "referees" of negotiations between Jews and any other political entity. So the Palestinians rejected the peace plan because the negotiators were Jewish? I had not heard that one before.

bernardfelix - 05:16am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#38 of 72) AJScholl To which "rejected peace plan" do you refer, pray tell. Please don't insult us with that very tired and tiresome Ehud Barrak, version, it offered the Palestinians about what they look like ending up with, except for the Apartheidt Wall, sorry, separation fence.

Rapata - 05:19am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#39 of 72) Considering that they sent Christ to be crucified on the cross, who says they want.

FreedomFries - 07:09am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#40 of 72) To avoid scrutiny of his own responsibility in causing the 9/11 attack, Bush advances the idiotic idea that it has nothing to do with his politics in the Middle East. He thinks the Americans are all as moronic as him. While the average IQ of Americans is way higher than Bush's, it is true that they are being brainwashed by a monolithic, communist-style or Nazi-style (take you pick) news media.

FreedomFries - 07:21am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#41 of 72) The totalitarian American press is the only explanation of the enormous difference in public opinions of the Americans and the peoples of the Free World (who enjoy a free, diverse news media). I'm talking about opinions concerning the War for the Destruction and Enslavement of Iraq, and other "noble" American initiatives in the ME and the rest of world. Can you provide another explanation? In spite of it, the Americans have started to wake up from their slumber, as demonstrated by the rapid drop in the approval ratings of the neo-con junta. As Al Franken said, lying liars will get exposed eventually.

alanbalesdale - 09:12am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#42 of 72) The American Israeli lobby has pushed the American people into a confrontantion with the Moslem world in particular, That's very true, and now they seem set to turn India's Hindus and Moslems against each other.

samimandel - 02:38pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#43 of 72) Indeed, it's not just an American problem. They create an atmosphere of hatred and antagonism in the entire world, by giving respectability to racial oppression and to colonialism. It gives hopes to all would-be oppressors and butchers of neighbouring peoples.

FreedomFries - 02:56pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#44 of 72) It's not as simple as that. One must first find a way to bribe or intimidate the US politicians into supporting such actions. Secondly, one must control the US media, so that they would support the politicians. Unfortunately, the US media has been already taken by the Jewish lobby. I suggest that anyone contemplating the enslavement of another country should get the support of AIPAC. They are the only ones with the tools needed to win over the US politicians.

AJSch0ll - 03:01pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#45 of 72) FreedomFries, do you consider yourself a nazi?

FreedomFries - 03:03pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#46 of 72) Do you? A Nazi is someone who suppresses free speech, among others.

AmericanSteel - 03:03pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#47 of 72) Hey Freedom, ya better be more discreet. Even though examination of corporate ownership of USA news outlets will prove that the majority of them are owned by Israeli's, if you say that out loud here in the forums, you are likely to be warned or banned. You are correct in your statement. It is just not a good idea to say things like that here if you wish to remain part of the conversation.

FreedomFries - 03:07pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#48 of 72) American, There is a way out. Let's say it, but add that it's a good thing for America, because it makes the Americans more united around their leaders. You need that in times of war.

FreedomFries - 03:09pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#49 of 72) Even more important, you need that in order to start wars.

AJSch0ll - 03:32pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#50 of 72) Do you? A Nazi is someone who suppresses free speech, among others. Most Nazis are anti-Semites. I apologize if I misread you an anti-Semitism as nazism.

samimandel - 03:38pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#51 of 72) AmericanSteel wrote: "Hey Freedom, ya better be more discreet. Even though examination of corporate ownership of USA news outlets will prove that the majority of them are owned by Israeli's, if you say that out loud here in the forums, you are likely to be warned or banned." Well, how can you be banned for stating a verifiable truth? I think there is no question that Jewish people own or manage a lot of American TV channels and major newspapers, well in excess to their proportion to the American population. After all, the names of owners and senior executives are in the public domain. The only question is whether they use or not their preponderance to misinform the Americans. I do believe that such an important institution as the news media should more or less reflect the ethnic composition of the country, so that some minorities are not underrepresented. As it stands, even the majority is underrepresented at the managerial and ownership level. Perhaps affirmative action should be used.

GuardianTalk - 03:40pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#52 of 72) Why would we remove a message? There are four guidelines we would like you to be aware of: 1. We discourage obscenity and mindless abuse. Personal attacks on other users have no place in an intelligent discussion. 2. We will not tolerate racism, sexism or homophobia. 3. We will remove any content that may put us in legal jeopardy, such as potentially libellous or defamatory postings. 4. While we encourage a wide range of views, we will consider removing any content that other users might find extremely offensive or threatening. If you act with maturity and consideration for other users, you should have no problems on our boards. Remember that by registering for The Talk you have also agreed to our terms and conditions.

discord - 03:48pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#53 of 72) Freedomfries You cited Donahue, Maher and Moore earlier on in defense of your argument. Is there a US Irish anti-Jewish backlash we Brits should know about?

samimandel - 03:52pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#54 of 72) discord, Your logic is specious. The facts seem to rather indicate an anti-Irish backlash in the US media.

discord - 03:53pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#55 of 72) Sami Is there no powerful Irish lobby in the US?

samimandel - 03:55pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#56 of 72) No. Not nearly as powerful as the Israel lobby.

discord - 03:59pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#57 of 72) That's very strange given that American Jews are so few compared with American Irish. How do you explain it sami?

samimandel - 04:03pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#58 of 72) I explain it by the single-mindedness of the Jews in their support of Israel. The Irish have many other hobbies like boozing, chicks, bar brawling, etc.

discord - 04:20pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#59 of 72) So the millions of Irish Americans can't muster even a good few thousand "single-minded" souls? Seriously sami, in a democracy people are free to act and vote the way they see fit. Some Jews support Israel and lobby hard; others don't give a damn. Arab lobbyists should try harder.

DavidJWalker - 04:23pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#60 of 72) So the North Korean problem is all the fault of the dreaded AmeroZioNazis (or should it be ZioAmeroNazis? I can never remember) too? And Northern Ireland, and the ChiComms! Gosh I never knew all that! You learn SOOOOOOO much on GUT! You people are astounding!

GuardianTalk - 04:32pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#61 of 72) This thread will now be deleted. We will not allow anti-semitic threads on this talkboard. Some posters are clearly using the talkboard to invoke well worn anti-semitic stereotypes. We will not allow incitement to hatred as it is against current UK law. Users are warned once before being banned.

samimandel - 04:46pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#62 of 72) Please be careful before deleting this thread. I see nothing antisemitic in it. All political organizations, even those ethnic-based are open to scrutiny in a democracy. What stereotypes are you talking about? Isn't it a fact that the US Jewish lobby has a great impact on the US foreign policy?

AJSch0ll - 04:53pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#63 of 72) What stereotypes are you talking about? Sam, please post your definition of anti-Semitic.

samimandel - 04:54pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#64 of 72) Do you want to suppress the obvious truth that American Jews are overrepresented in the US media ownership and management (with the obvious result that others are underepresented)? If you suppress this thread, I will inform the GU senior management, as well as other news outlets, that the GU Talk is "moderated", by an anti-democrat whose mission is to suppress truth and free speech.

AJSch0ll - 04:57pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#65 of 72) please post your definition of anti-Semitic. Or does this concept not exist for you?

slightlybiscuit - 04:59pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#66 of 72) American Jews are overrepresented in the US media ownership and management Good for them. Obviously they are smart and succesful.

Izzy - 05:00pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#67 of 72) If you suppress this thread, I will inform the GU senior management, as well as other news outlets, that the GU Talk is "moderated", by an anti-democrat whose mission is to suppress truth and free speech. LOL. Boo.

juliasawa - 05:03pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#68 of 72) brooklyny - 03:47am Sep 9, 2003 BST (#26 of 65) "The American Israeli lobby".... How nicely opaque! Anyone want to spell that, in four letters? Yes. All those Americans who spend a fair deal of time and money promoting the interests of Israel. Which, incidently, includes Jews and non-Jews. Many of them are prominent within Bush's regime.

samimandel - 05:04pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#69 of 72) slight, agreed, but stating this reality (which you acknowledge, yourself) does not constitute antisemitism.

AJSch0ll - 05:06pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#70 of 72) does not constitute antisemitism. To you there is no such thing as antisemitism.

juliasawa - 05:07pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#71 of 72) Edit | Delete GuardianTalk - 04:32pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#61 of 68) This thread will now be deleted. We will not allow anti-semitic threads on this talkboard. The moderators of this board feel no compunction to justify any of their accusations. This is how censorship and dictatorship flourish. When an individual can anonymously and unilaterally decide on what is or is not said. I don't object to anti-Semitism being surpressed, but I do object to the GU Moderators attempts to be judge, jury and executioner in deciding what constitutes anti-Semitism. GU - you have to prove your case.

juliasawa - 05:11pm Sep 9, 2003 BST (#72 of 72) Edit | Delete To further expand: it is anti-Semitic to attribute some negative attributes to Jews. It is not anti-Semitic to say that the Zionist lobby is very powerful in America. The Zionist lobby includes Jews and Christians in America. Even if someone were to say 'the Jewish lobby is very powerful', that in itself is not anti-Semitic. Is it, GU?