Introduction: What follows is the teaching of one person, We shall call him "the author". His Statements will appear in Brown.
Our Rebuttal is in White.
Protestantism
the author says:
Protestantism has two sides. One side being basic Protestantism and the other is Reformed Protestantism.
Basic Protestantism in and of itself is an objection to Catholicism, paganistic rituals, and a works salvation. There have always been Protestants since the inception of Catholicism. Examples include Justin Martyr, Anabaptists, Peter Waldo, etc. The list continues. Protestants believe that the 66 book canon is God's Word and that all other books are not to be included as part of the Bible. Catholicism embraces other books as being part of the Bible. Protestantism says that man cannot save Himself. Only receiving Christ as Saviour and Lord can save you. All other methods and paths are meaningless. You cannot work for salvation because Christ has already completed the works.
author said:
"Protestantism has two sides. One side being basic Protestantism and the other is Reformed Protestantism. "
Here he does not give a factual historical definition. It seems clear that the author is trying to "reinvent" the term "Protestantism" to suit his own purposes; i.e., making just two groups: "Basic" (the good guys) and "Reformed", (the bad guys). While subtly clever, let us see why it plainly does not line up with True Church history.
Let us say this first of all. We fully agree with the authors' statement that Faith Alone with no human works-righteousness added is Salvation.
However, a considerable amount of what he then tries to teach contains many gross errors. Like it or not, the statements of the author seem more to reflect an appearance of a Disinformation Campaign to support his arguments and not True Church history. Let us take a look.
First, the author divides "Protestantism" into "Basic" and "Reformed". To be accurate, original 16th-Century Protestantism was of Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. No matter what the author might say, the term "protestant" was never used before 1529 A.D.
It is very important to know that there were NO OTHER major Protestant Theologians involved that defined the movement in its beginning than Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.
Martin Luther was the very beginner of what is called Protestantism (once again, there were no other theologians involved at all). There were others who preceeded him that said the same things however, but the term "Protestant" did not originate until the 16th-Century, not before. The Protestant Reformation was a 16th-Century single-handed movement with Luther as the originator at that time. No others. A little later, John Calvin agreed with Luther and Zwingli agreed with Luther as well. Luther read Calvins' works and fully endorsed them. Luthers' teachings are the core beliefs of the Protestant Reformation. There were only three individuals who were the main theologians as the ORIGINAL TEACHERS who began the Protestant Reformation: Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. They all followed the same teaching that later became known as "Calvinism" or "T.U.L.I.P." The author should have researched Luthers' works and known that.
The author also attempts to suggest (or mislead?) us that there were some "other" theologians involved? This is totally untrue. There were not. Plain and simple. That is why his opening definition is based more on Disinformation rather than actual historical Truth.
Further, Luther said that he did not want any "denomination" named after him. Todays' Lutheranism rejects some of Luthers' own teachings. The Reformed maintain them.
The author then attempts to provides us with three "examples" of his "protestants", or (in the authors' opinion) "true protestants"? We will examine them one by one.
This starts off with a real bang to say the least.
To be historically accurate, the term "Protestant" was not seen until 1529; as one who adhered to the Doctrines of Martin Luther. They had protested against a decree of Charles V at the Diet of Spires (1529), and were called "protestants" from that date, not before.
Authots' second "protestants": The Anabaptists: The Anabaptists taught that since Scripture said "His laws are written on our hearts", they were free to disregard all teaching and all reading of books. Also many believed, all secular authority. They exalted anti-learning, substituting "feelings" and were involved in lawlessness and rejected Lawful Civil Authority.
They were all rejected by the Protestant Reformers as heretics. The Anabaptists became too radical, rejecting all secular authority. Protstantism distanced itself from the Anabaptists and remained unified under the core teachings of Luther, who spoke out against the Anabaptists.
Authors' third "protestant": Peter Waldo: While it is true that he protested against the excesses and moral laxity of the Roman Church of the Middle Ages, Peter Waldos' solution was to become a radical ascetic monk. All money was evil. Part of his followers later became the Cathars who taught Gnosticism. According to their teaching (Classic Gnosticism) "the world" was created by the Demiurge, an evil god or satan. This Demiurge was the "God of the Old Testament" referred to in Genesis Chapter 1. The Demiurge created the world, not Jesus.[1]
The main body of the group begun by Peter Waldo later became the Waldensians. The author should have known that in the main, the Waldensians later joined the Reformed Protestants.
Also, the Protestant Reformation actually began in 1517 with the posting of the 95 Theses by Martin Luther to the door of the Church in Wittenberg. Scholars are agreed on that. While the roots of it had been brewing for Centuries, the Protestant Reformation did not begin until 1517.
It could be said that four examples that did represent the roots of the Protestant Reformation were: The Great Schism, Jan Hus, John Wyclif and William Tyndale.
The author, on the other hand, has given us: 1. Justin Martyr (who lived in the 2nd Century A.D. before the Roman Catholic Church even existed, and who never "protested" against the Church at all); 2. The Anabaptists, who became schismatic and separated themselves from the rest and were declaterd heretics ny the Protestants; and 3. Peter Waldo, whose groups included schismatics known as Cathars who taught full-blown Gnosticism, and whose main body, the Waldensians, overwhelmingly joined the 16th-Century Reformed Protestants!
the author says:
Reformed Protestantism is even more radical. I have found teachings among this faction that reminds me of Greek Mythological teachings. I admit that I have several several objections to it. You can hit the back button to view various pages of my objections to many of its distorted teachings. I will give an overview here.
Just as Basic Protestantism, Reformed Protestantism is an objection to Catholicism, paganistic rituals, and a works salvation. It has not always been around and running rampant as has Basic Protestantism. Among many Reformed Protestant factions there is an embrace of the books beyond the 66 book canon. Keep in mind that Catholicism embraces extra-Biblical books as well. In the 4th Century AD, a Catholic priest named Augustine began a series of writings. History records that Augustine was a pagan and fascinated with Rome before he became a Catholic priest and bishop. He had made every effort to make himself as Roman as possible. Back to his writings, I can't say that I value any of Augustine's writings personally but they are a most interesting read. In Greco-Roman Mythology, Zeus, the king of the gods, had power over all things except for destiny. Destiny and fate were only subject to the three female beings named The Fates. The Fates were not as powerful as Zeus perse, but Zeus and all of creation were subject to the will of The Fates. I can see personally how this mythology was incorporated into Augustine's Catholic pre-Reformed teachings and philosophies which influenced both Martin Luther and John Calvin.
Dare I say that Augustine's teachings are influenced by Greco-Roman pagan mythology? Yes I did and you can quote me on that. I however believe that the three men's hearts were in the right place. I also agree that there is no works salvation. I do however agree with the three of them in their documented stands against Sabbatarianism(Sabbath Keeping).
We reply:
The auther says Augustine was a "catholic priest". The Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the 4th Century.
The author speaks against those that used more than the 66 Books which were Ruled by Martin Luther to be the Canon of Scripture.
I mean did we miss something? In this whole discussion of "protestantism" never mentions Martin Luther as the one that set forth the Protestant Canon as being 66 Books. Amazing!
author said:
"Augustine's Catholic pre-Reformed teachings and philosophies which influenced both Martin Luther and John Calvin."
The author says Augustines' "philosophies"; that they influenced both Martin Luther and John Calvin? What "philosophies" were those? Augustine rejected Greek philosophies and so did Luther and Calvin. So what "philosophies" is he talking about? Do they have a name? All Philosophies have names. We are not told what names. Ladies and Gentlemen, there are no names because they preached no "philosophies".
Also, the author is apparently not aware that the first of his "protestants" in his list, Justin Martyr, used the Apocrypha hinself (more than the 66 Books) as did the whole early Church. They used them as writings of wise men and historical books. They were a part of the LXX (The Greek Septuagint).
Further, the author wants us "to quote him" that "Augustines' teachings are influenced by Greco-Roman mythology".
This, simply, is a lie.
Augustine wrote AGAINST Greco-Roman paganism and all it represented, defending the Christian Faith in his City of God. Did he use mythology in his arguments? YES! Why? He used their own mythology against the pagans to Defend the Faith!
The author says Augustine was "fascinated with Rome" (?) Does he mean because Augustine was a Roman citizen? Augustine did not live in Rome, but in Northern Africa.
Augustine had been schooled in all of the pagan teaching before he was Saved. He had his own School of Rhetoric. His knowledge and expertise on the subject of philosophy overwhelmed all of his opponents. He used that knowledge to show all his readers why paganism was incorrect by using examples from their own mythology that they completely understood. (Unlike our author and his "sources")
The facts are these: Augustine (being trained in all that the pagans were using as arguments against Christianity) demonstrated conclusively that he was more of an authority on their so-called teachings than any of his opponents were! How did he do this? By using their own myhtology against them and defeating totally all of their arguments.
Did Augustine use Greco-Roman mythology in his writings! Certainly! Why? Because he addressed his work to the pagans so that they could read their own arguments they were using in terms they could understand and defeat them all, which he did do!
The author also refers to Augustine as a "Catholic". He makes the mistake of assumimg that the Roman Catholic Church existed at the time of Augustine. It didn't. There were no great theologians or scholars in Rome through the first 5 Centuries and into the early 6th Century of the Church. The bishop of Romes' opinions were never included in any known Doctrines or Teachings of the early Church, and there was no "roman pope" with "Ecclesiastical Authority" over all the Churches either. Basically, they were intellectual and theological unknowns.
There is so much confusion here on the part of our author it is unbelievable. The authors' accusations are completely baseless, false and without merit.
the author continues:
For the record, I do not feel right about embracing teachings that are so deep rooted in both pagan Greco-Roman mythology nor Catholicism. Do I reject every single work of these 3 men? No. Just those similar to the 5 points of Calvinism is what I reject.
For more sites that expose the mythological influences of Reformed teachings, hit the back button.
- - (authors' name ommitted) 2003
We do not find the authors' teaching accurate.
Followers of Peter Waldo were three separate groups; the Waldensians, the Albigensians and the Cathars.
The Waldensians were fully accepted into Reformed Protestantism. John Milton (the Reformed Protestant) wrote this poem about the Waldensians:
On the Late Massacre in Piedmont
Avenge O Lord thy slaughter'd Saints, whose bones
Lie scatter'd on the Alpine mountains cold,
Ev'n them who kept thy truth so pure of old
When all our Fathers worship't Stocks and Stones,
Forget not: in thy book record their groanes
Who were thy Sheep and in their antient Fold
Slayn by the bloody Piemontese that roll'd
Mother with Infant down the Rocks. Their moans
The Vales redoubl'd to the Hills, and they
To Heav'n. Their martyr'd blood and ashes sow
O're all th' Italian fields where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant [the pope]: that from these may grow
A hunder'd-fold, who having learnt thy way
Early may fly the Babylonian wo.
John Milton
"Catharism, another sect that followed Peter Waldo, was based on the idea that the world was evil. This was an outgrowth of neoplatonism and possibly the theology of the Bogomils. According to the Cathars, the world had been created by an evil deity, the Demiurge (Gnosticism), the being called Satan by Christians. They also believed that souls would be reborn until they managed to escape the material world for the immaterial heaven. The way to escape was to live the life of an ascetic and not be corrupted by the world.
"The Cathars also held many beliefs that were odious to the rest of medieval society. First off, they believed that Christ had been an apparition, a ghost, that showed the way to God. They refused to believe that the good God could or would come in material form, since all physical objects were tainted by sin. This specific belief is called docetism. They further believed that the God of the Old Testament was the Devil, since he had created the world. Also, they did not believe in any sacrament except the consulamentum, which was another major heresy."
Because of a belief in reincarnation, the Cathars believed physical form was irrelevant and that women could have been men in a previous life and might be in the next. For this reason, women were equal or even vastly spiritually superior to men in their "churches". Also, all oaths were sin.
ibid. Contra Pelagius.
Gonzalez, Justo L. The Story of Christianity. Saint Louis, Missouri. Prince Press. 1999.
Wikipedia.
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