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Correspondence with Pelagian Troy Brooks, self-proclaimed OSAS Arminian

Note: Arminius would be rolling in his grave to have this heretic proclaiming himself an Arminian.

Overview:

This correspondence came as a result of a person named Troy Brooks (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Christianity.htm) contacted me with regards to my article on the difference between the Arminian doctrine of Once saved, always saved (OSAS) and the Calvinist/ Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints at http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/ddd_chc82/theology/OSAS.html . He started off attacking my character and strongly contesting my salvation, even breaking the 3rd commandment by taking the Lord's name in vain. After a few emails, he showed his true colors by proclaiming his Pelagian beliefs by denying original sin. OK, after clarification, he is a Pelagian Gnostic, since as we shall see later, he splits the soul and the spirit to the extant that the soul is sinful but the spirit is not. Despite my repeated attempts to be civil, he insults me persistently in his emails and condemned me to hell, showing forth his un-Christlike behavior. Expected though it may be, coming from an unregenerate mind, it is not something anyone would like to hear. For those who knew me when I was just starting to learn how to be both loving people and loving the truth, I have never once attacked a person immediately by proclaiming any person who call themselves a Christian as a unbeliever. Heretic, yes, but the person's salvation is left for God to decide and I have never questioned anyone's salvation before at first sight. Thus, Troy's behavior shows forth his fruit (Mt. 7: 15-20). It doesn't help that he consistently and purposefully misrepresent my position, as well as that of all Calvinists. It is my prayer that God may have mercy upon his soul and bring him to repentance; otherwise his destination would be hell and eternal damnation in the lake of fire.

It is my hope that through sharing this, others may more easily perceive the Truth that is Christianity by the contrast of its teaching from that of this guy's Pelagian Gnostic heresy. I allowed Troy the final word in our exchange (so he has an advantage), but I am sure any Christian could see through the teachings of this guy, especially when he denied original sin (Look for the phrase said by him ‘ You err by saying that all sinners deserve hell’). Without further to do, here is the exchange: (My words are all in black)


1a) Troy Brooks email to Daniel Chew (3rd Apr 2006 )

Most arminians (not all) believe in Preservation of the Saints. Don't be afraid of this. Realize what you have been doing all your life. You have been rationalizing calivinism monergism falsely (there is no way to rationalize truthfully its falsehood). You do this by sinning bearing false witness against Christians (OSAS arminians) by way of self-declarations unjustified in various ways like claiming they (we) don't believe in Preservation of the Saints (OSAS) with words like, "divorce of justification from sanctification in the lives of true believers". Know that Arminians do not have libertarian free-will, but calvinists do, for calvinist declare by their own free-will they are premade for salvation like robots. Thank the Lord self-declarations are not true, but selfish and self-centered. Why do you do this? It is to cover up the lie in your heart about what you really believe. It is a misdirection if you will.

That lie is the lie in the pride of your thinking you are premade for salvation like a robot as explained here,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/calvinists3.htm

You should repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I tell you this all unapologetically.

A Christian (OSAS arminian) may lose rewards of the kingdom for not letting God work a complete work in the believer unto overcoming. God deals with this lack through loss of rewards in outer darkness, outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years.

Also, Christians believe in justification by faith as well as sanctification by faith. We are sanctified (cleansed) through faith in Christ bringing in God's grace. Both sanctification and justification are not divorced. So this is another problem you have in sinning bearing false witness. You can see why God has a big problem with judging, for it is the judger that is so often wrong.

As a consequence of what you believe, you would not be saved for you claim you were saved another way. If you commit crime, war, hate, murder, these are most likely your false fruit we know you by. You may claim you were made this way as a result of your calvinism regeneration, but this more likely is just your unsalvation: a false salvation of the tares who try to look like the wheat.

So you can see why OSAS arminian preservation of the saints (OSAS eternal security) is better because unlike calvinism, it does not separate justification and sanctification. Calvinism splits these two by claiming the former and no matter what sin it engages in, it just self-declares the latter, not realizing the former was not actually accomplished in the first place by the grace of God because of saying salvation is by premaking like robots (that is, saving first before the choice of John 3.16).

May you see one day that God has accountability. Under calvinism there is no accountability just prideful self-declarations. Righteously God has accountability through the millennial period. There is no such recourse under calvinism, and thus what happens is your lower your conscience and presume you are abiding, when in fact you are not, but getting farther and farther into deception, because there is no consequences. This is the libertarian free-will that is masked in roboticism.

Obviously this will never glorify God.

Did you know the Holy Spirit has revealed to me you have never been born-again?

1b) Daniel’s response to Troy (5th Apr 2006 )

Dear Troy ,

I appreciate your feedback. However, it seems to me that you are very confused over this issue. I would assume that no one has ever pointed out the truth to you.

Let me first start off by stating that your letter to me, together with what you have put on your website, shows your ignorance of what Calvinism and Arminianism really is. I really do not appreciate your strawman caricature of my position, and that of the historical Christian faith. Thus said, I would assume that do not know otherwise and would be receptive to correction regarding your presentation of my position.

From your feedback, I can see that you perhaps are primarily objecting to my article on the difference between the Arminian doctrine of Once saved, always saved and the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. If you would just read it properly, you would see that my primary targets in this article are the 4 point Arminians like that of Dave Hunt or Norman Geisler, and other like them in the Southern Baptist Convention who believe in easy-believism. In fact, the fact that such carnal "Christians" exist gives a sort of legetimacy of ministries like Dan Corner of Evangelical Outreach ministries (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/) who are full blown Arminians.

That said, I would like to show you a presentation of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. A presentation of my soteriological beliefs can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/ddd_chc82/theology/soteriology.html. You can see for yourself that Calvinism does not eqate to or imply 'roboticism'. God gave us free will, but our wills are kept in bondage and slavery to sin, thus we can't choose God unless God chose us first and regenerates us by the Holy Spirit. God did not choose some innocent people to go to heaven and others to go to hell, but God choose sinners who are ALREADY condemned to hell and saved them so that they can go to heaven.

I would now respond to your allegations in your email:

You have been rationalizing calivinism monergism falsely (there is no way to rationalize truthfully its falsehood). You do this by sinning bearing false witness against Christians (OSAS arminians) by way of self-declarations unjustified, in various ways like claiming they (we) don't believe in Preservation of the Saints (OSAS) with words like, "divorce of justification from sanctification in the lives of true believers".

If you believe in OSAS as an Arminian, can you please tell me why is it that a person who is justified must be sanctified? Why can't the person choose NOT to be sanctified? After all, he has free will, doesn't he? Also, what is your basis for believing that a person once saved remains saved (OSAS), since the person can still choose by his own free will to reject Christ after his salvation?

Know that Arminians do not have libertarian free-will, but calvinists do, for calvinist declare by their own free-will they are premade for salvation like robots.

The definition of libertarian free will is that a person has the free will to choose anything and everything, even those things that are contrary to his nature. Arminians DO believe in libertarian free will since they believe that they can choose God even though they are sinful in nature, whereas we Christians deny libertarian free will since we believe that we are slaves to sin (Jn. 8:34) and unable to choose God unless God chooses us first. Calvinists DO NOT declare by their own free will that we are 'premade for salvation like robots'. We are not made for salvation, we are chosen. All of us are born ('made') depraved and sinful. Only God is the one who chooses some of us sinners and save us, all because of his glorious grace.(Eph. 1:4-6).

Thank the Lord self-declarations are not true, but selfish and self-centered. Why do you do this? It is to cover up the lie in your heart about what you really believe. It is a misdirection if you will

I do what I do because I am convinced by the Holy Spirit from Scripture that this is the truth. I worship a God who is great and mighty, who is sovereign over all creatures, and have saved me from myself in spite of my unloveliness and uncleanliness, and saved me even despite my hatred of Him then.

That lie is the lie in the pride of your thinking you are premade for salvation like a robot as explained here

A total strawman! Read my article on soteriology and then try again. We were not premade for heaven; we were chosen to be saved by God and are saved while we were on the road to hell. From the article that you have written and referenced, I can see that you deny the doctrine of total depravity. Perhaps you might want to consider the Bible's teachings on the depravity of Man in Ps. 14:2-3 and Rom. 3:10-18, which states explicitly that Man does not seek after God on his own.

A Christian (OSAS arminian) may lose rewards of the kingdom for not letting God work a complete work in the believer unto overcoming. God deals with this lack through loss of rewards in outer darkness, outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years.

You are assuming dispensationalism, and a particlar brand of that also, here.

Also, Christians believe in justification by faith as well as sanctification by faith. We are sanctified (cleansed) through faith in Christ bringing in God's grace. Both sanctification and justification are not divorced.

When I mean that a modern-day Arminian like Dave Hunt divorces justification from sanctification, I DO NOT mean that they are not both by faith. What I meant is that in such a view, a person can be justified but may not undergo the process of sanctification. In other words, sanctification is optional in the life of a Christian, though he/she may lose many rewards because of this, as per what you have said in the passage preceding this.

So this is another problem you have in sinning bearing false witness. You can see why God has a big problem with judging, for it is the judger that is so often wrong.

Perhaps, but judging from the number of strawmen that I am seeing in this email, I suspect the charge of bearing false witness could apply to you

As a consequence of what you believe, you would not be saved for you claim you were saved another way. If you commit crime, war, hate, murder, these are most likely your false fruit we know you by.

I, and all other Calvinists, are saved through our belief and acceptance of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ which He shed on the Cross for all believers. I honestly do not know what 'other way' you are talking about. I have stated in my OSAS article that we Calvinists do not divorce justification from sanctification, thus we believe that all who are saved will grow in holiness in Christ, otherwise we do not regard them as being saved at all (1 Jn. 2:19). In fact, your argument of knowing by false fruit is the argument made by Dan Corner, who uses that to argue against OSAS and say that it is a damnable doctrine that brings people to hell.

Calvinism splits these two by claiming the former and no matter what sin it engages in, it just self-declares the latter, not realizing the former was not actually accomplished in the first place by the grace of God because of saying salvation is by premaking like robots

This is a strawman!! Show me one Calvinist which believes in this type of trash and I will show you an unbeliever. We are saved when we believe in Christ, not by 'premaking like robots'. However, this is accomplished by God the Father choosing us believers before the foundation of the world, the Son atoning for us believers, and the Holy Spirit regenerating us (born-again) so that we have faith to choose Christ.

This is the libertarian free-will that is masked in roboticism

Perhaps you can learn how to use the phrase libertarian free will properly, now that you are informed of its correct definition?

Thank the Lord self-declarations are not true, but selfish and self-centered. Why do you do this? It is to cover up the the lie in your heart about what you really believe. It is a misdirection if you will ...
You should repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I tell you this all unapologetically. ...
You may claim you were made this way as a result of your calvinism regeneration, but this more likely is just your unsalvation: a false salvation of the tares who try to look like the wheat. ...
There is no such recourse under calvinism, and thus what happens is your lower your conscience and presume you are abiding, when in fact you are not, but getting farther and farther into deception, because there is no consequences. ...
Did you know the Holy Spirit has revealed to me you have never been born-again?

Besides the fact that all these phrases commit the ad-hominen fallacy, I do not think that you have the right to question my motives - to say that I am covering up the truth which I 'actually believe in' (according to you). I think also that you are being judgmental when you declare me an unbeliever without valid proof, and furthermore, by invoking the Holy Spirit and saying that He has revealed it to you is firstly, blasphemy, since it is false. Secondly, it is a denial of Sola Scriptura or Scripture alone for you to claim extrabiblical revelation.

(Also, for a refutation of your misusage of Rom. 8:28 -30, you can look at http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/ddd_chc82/theology/Review_anti_Calvinism.html - the first part. Foreknew is NOT equal to foreknowledge, if you read the Greek. Also, from your articles, I see that you make the error of assuming that responsibility implies ability, which is ridiculous since God does demands things of us which we can't do - i.e. God demands that we are holy but we can never be holy.)

It is my wish that you sincerely give heed to what I have said and at least stop misrepresenting us. If you want to refute what I have written, the very least you could do is to represent Calvinism properly, and also take care of your logical (never mind biblical) inconsistency when Dan Corner and co. come knocking at your back door for your embrace of the doctrine of eternal security.

2a) Troy ’s response to Daniel (5th Apr 2006 )

>Dear Troy,
>
>I appreciate your feedback. However, it seems to me that you are very
>confused over this issue. I would assume that no one has ever pointed out
>the truth to you.

We shall see shan't we.

>
>Let me first start off by stating that your letter to me, together with what
>you have put on your website, shows your ignorance of what Calvinism and
>Arminianism really is. I really do not appreciate your strawman caricature
>of my position, and that of the historical Christian faith. Thus said, I
>would assume that do not know otherwise and would be receptive to correction
>regarding your presentation of my position.

Self-declarations are irrelevant.

>From your feedback, I can see that you perhaps are primarily objecting to my
>article on the difference between the Arminian doctrine of Once saved,
>always saved and the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. If
>you would just read it properly, you would see that my primary target in
>this article are the 4 point Arminians like that of Dave Hunt or Norman
>Geisler, and other like them in the Southern Baptist Convention who believe
>in easy-believism. In fact, the fact that such carnal "Christians" exist
>gives a sort of legetimacy of ministries like Dan Corner of Evangelical
>Outreach ministries ( http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/)
> who are full blown Arminians.

The 4 points of arminian are not easy believism, but God's way of salvation along with preservation of the saints (OSAS) as taught by Christians (OSAS arminians). The 4 points of calvinism are easy believism, for it says to delude yourself that you are premade for salvation like a robot, then you are saved, not requiring true repentance to come to the cross. How easier could it be!

I am not a name dropper like yourself as that is merely looking onto men for your answers instead of the Word of God. I do not consider the class that you put yourself into as even being carnal Christians, but rather the unsaved tares who try to look like the wheat. You should know this about yourself so as to be saved according to God's way.

> That said, I would like to show you a presentation of the true Gospel of
> Jesus Christ. A presentation of my soteriological beliefs can be found at
> http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/ddd_chc82/theology/soteriology.html
>. You can see for yourself that Calvinism does not equate to or imply
> 'roboticism'. God gave us free will, but our wills are kept in bondage and
> slavery to sin, thus we can't choose God unless God chose us first and
> regenerates us by the Holy Spirit. God did not choose some innocent people
> to go to heaven and others to go to hell, but God choose sinners who are
> ALREADY condemned to hell and saved them so that they can go to heaven.

You wrote, "With the knowledge of total depravity, we can see why election is actually such a precious and glorious doctrine." But, total depravity is false, since though we are fallen, we are not totally deprave because if it was so, we would not be made in God's image with a right to come to the cross to receive God's saving grace. You see God's image, directly contradicts the false teaching of total depravity. The reason why calvinism is a lie is because of these two words: total depravity which aim to kill the image of God. And we see this killing here when you wrote, that Jacob was chosen and Esau was not because of God's "foreseen faith or absence of it." Yet, Romans 8.29 says, God predestinates by foreknowledge: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate". You see before you said God has not "foreseen" the choice of Jacob or Esau. This means, you do not have faith in God's infinite foreknowledge spoken of in v.29. First He foreknew then He predestined whom He foreknew. How does He foreknow then is the question. How does anyone foreknow? I do not foreknow something by premaking it like a robot to turn out a certain way, for that is without life. Instead, God would foreknow the choice of His creation.

Same old story. You're preaching a false salvation. You can't see it because your spirit is dead to God. You don't want to believe that God saves by leading us by the Holy Spirit to come to the cross in which His foresight foresees the choice we make. We are chosen and elect conditionally. This is the sense you get also in the books when they are opened. Some are blotted out who were first in those books. It is because the choice is made to continue to refuse God's grace, not because they were premade that way to go to hell. Understand clearly your conscience can't sense why this is wrong. This is why you need to be born-again, so you can have a new spirit that can sense it.

We do not choose Christ by the fallen will, but by the will made in God's image which we are still made in. I know this is hard to get your head around, but your head is the problem. God's image is not fallen. You would have to kill the image of God to require that your god premake you for salvation before you could believe, since you say men can not choose from the grace given by being made in God's image. Thus you kill God's image and worship another. The Bible does not ask you to believe because you are saved already, but asks you to believe because you are not saved. First you must believe. This is proper cause and effect.

You also erred by saying that all sinners deserve hell, so your god saves some of them because he premade them that way by an unconditional election rather than forseeing the choice of men, which mistreats the others that God does not save. He is treating both groups unequally. This is why God does not save this way. Instead God died on the cross for the sins of the whole world and all people. Not all people are saved because not all people receive the cross. Do you see why it is wrong to say out of all the sinners, God picks out some to save making them elect by premaking them that way. This is an unequal yoking and it puffs you up. What you are showing me is a works of your flesh in working so hard to try to convince yourself you are one of those premade for salvation and God does not equally treat others the same. You are utterly obvliously that this is happening to you. This is the most evil teaching in the history of Satan's infiltration into the Church that you are under. There is none more beguiling and cunning, in your head without the spirit's quickening.

I would now respond to your allegations in your email:
> You have been rationalizing calivinism monergism falsely (there is no way to
> rationalize truthfully its falsehood). You do  this by sinning bearing false
> witness against Christians (OSAS arminians) by way of self-declarations
> unjustified, in various ways like claiming they (we) don't believe in
> Preservation of the Saints (OSAS) with words like, "divorce of justification
> from sanctification in the lives of true believers".

> If you believe in OSAS as an Arminian, can you please tell me why is it that
> a person who is justified must be sanctified? Why can't the person choose
> NOT to be sanctified? After all, he has free will, doesn't he? Also, what
> is your basis for believing that a person once saved remains saved (OSAS),
> since the person can still choose by his own free will to reject Christ
> after his salvation?

A person who is justified by faith to receive the blood of Christ to wash away sins is also instantly sanctified by faith, that is, cleansed and made holy before God. This is the meaning of sanctification by faith. If we are right before God, it is because we are also cleansed before God's eyes. Our being right before God is our being justified. Our being cleansed before God, is our sanctification by faith. If anything is lacking in a believer, it is consecration, setting himself apart for God, which not all Christians do, so not all believers will receive rewards. Christians accept the atonement for forgiveness of sins but lack the co-death experience of that accomplished fact. A person can choose to be carnal though still saved because of lacking consecration, but not because of sanctification, because before God the believer is clean; this is why the Holy Spirit is able to enter into the spirit of the man because it has been made new, it has been sanctified by the precious blood. The crosswork deals with our co-death allowing us to overcome self, whereas the blood washes away all defiling sin. Your problem is a matter of perspective. From God's eyes we are sanctified for entering into the new creation, but this does not mean we have erradicated the sin nature. It is still there and rears its ugly head as long as the flesh remains, which is why we need the cross to work a deeper incision. Having already died on the Christ will cross now what is needed is for the Holy Spirit to apply the cross to our lives as we work out our salvation. Again, your problem is a matter of perspective. God foreknows all things so He can foresee whom to give eternal life to. He foresaw that I would authentically come to the cross so that He would give me His life. This is how I know I was chosen, and I know I can never lose my salvation. I will never deny the Son of God, because I am chosen, not because I was saved first, then I believed, for I was not saved before I believed. I was chosen because God foresaw what I would do after He made me in His image. He even foresaw my choice before creation itself. This is not so difficult to understand unless you are possessed by the demon of calvinism teaching you about premaking robots, then it makes it exceedingly difficult for you to receive regeneration. God knows my will is forever in Him. He knows I will never doubt Him. This is why He chose me in foreknowing that I would never leave Him forever as His Holy Spirit increases my faith daily.

There are several hundred million of those who believe just as you do, and are no less unsaved. This does not mean every single last calvinist is unsaved but certainly the ratio is no better than 1 in 100 since God simply does not save that way. They claim another way of salvation that is diabolically opposed to God's love.

> Know that Arminians do not have libertarian free-will, but calvinists do,
> for calvinist declare by their own free-will they are premade for salvation
> like robots.

> The definition of livertarian free will is that a person has the free will
> to choose anything and everything, even those things that are contrary to
> his nature. Arminians DO believe in libertarian free will since they believe
> that they can choose God even though they are sinful in nature, whereas we
> Christians deny libertarian free will since we believe that we are slaves to
> sin (Jn. 8:34) and unable to choose God unless God chooses us
> first.Calvinists DO NOT declare by their own free will that we are 'premade
> for salvation like robots'. We are not made for salvation, we are chosen.
> All of us are born ('made') depraved and sinful. Only God is the one who
> chooses some of us sinners and save us, all because of his glorious
> grace.(Eph. 1:4-6).

Here then we see the libertarian free will at work in calvinism, for the calvinist by that libertarian free-will presupposes upon himself demands being premade for salvation like robots. How much more libertarian can you get than that in practice? OSAS arminians do not believe in libertarian free-will, but that we are made in God's image and that our will is either in Christ or in Satan. It is under one or the other. If one is unsaved it is under Satan. If under Christ the will is renewed. Before salvation the will is fallen, but within excluding the will of the flesh leaves a component will made in God's image. This is how we are able to come to the cross. God foreknew this way to make us in His image to afford us this right no matter how fallen we had become, the right remained to receive redemption through Christ. As we had seen previously God chooses by foreseeing our choice. The flesh can't choose Christ, but the image of God can. Do you notice how every time I mention this, you will in your heart shut your mind down to this fact. You just can't fathom how man is made in God's image to choose, and so like a bad lawyer you must think to yourself that you were premade that way like a robot. This is evil and exclusionary. Your being chosen is being premade for you claim you were saved first before you could believe. This is how I know you by your false fruit when you say this. God says believe first, then He saves. You say you are saved first like a robot, then you can believe like a robot switch turned on. This is the essence of roboticism. Your issue is with the Word which says predestination is by foreknowledge, not by premaking. Your faith is not compatible with God's loving Word. Your words do betray you. We shall know them by their fruit - your words.

> Thank the Lord self-declarations are not true, but selfish and
> self-centered. Why do you do this? It is to cover up the the lie in your
> heart about what you really believe. It is a misdirection if you will

>
> I do what I do because I am convinced by the Holy Spirit from Scripture that
> this is the truth. I worship a God who is great and mighty, who is sovereign
> over all creatures, and have saved me from myself in spite of my
> unloveliness and uncleanliness, and saved me even despite my hatred of Him
> then.

There are many who say they are Christians but are no more saved than an atheist or beliefs of other religions. In fact there condition is worse because they came so close to the truth and still reject it. Through history there has always been your mentality of the chosen race. Many claim the Holy Spirit but have not actually been born-again. This is why God speaks about the unsaved tares who try to look like the wheat in Matthew 13. He will put His sickle to them. They are in the sphere of the kingdom, but not saved. They operate in our church buildings, but they are fake. You worship a god who you claim premade you like a robot for salvation for you said he saved you first then like a robot that needs its wires plugged in could follow. It is not the case at all, for this does not glorify God at all. God does not want to be with robots, but the glory is in making man in His image and seeing His image accept or deny the redemption. Those that accept are those He wants to be with. He wanted to be with us all, but not all believe, not because they were premade not to believe, but because they chose in His image not to receive salvation. You choose not to receive salvation because you said you were premade by God to save you first before you could believe. Hell is what awaits you unless you can repent to the cross. How long have you been living this lie. It is like in the movie the Matrix they say not to release a person past a certain age because it will be so abrupt on the person's system. The same is true for you, you have to be released, but in so doing it will be a most painful experience because you have deceived yourself all these years. It will be a massive shock to your system, but when you come out on the other side, great blessing is before you if want to enter into the new creation.

>That lie is the lie in the pride of your thinking you are premade for
> salvation like a robot as explained here

>
> A total strawman. Read my article on soteriology and then try again. We were
> not premade for heaven, we were chosen to be saved by God and are saved
> while we were on the road to hell. From the article that you have written
> and referenced, I can see that you deny the doctrine of total depravity.
> Perhaps you might want to consider the Bible's teachings on the depravity of
> Man in Ps. 14:2-3 and Rom. 3:10 -18, which states explicitly that Man does
> not seek after God on his own.

When you say you were chosen to be saved by God before you could believe this is what is meant by being premade for salvation like a robot. God does not save first, for He saves after the man believes. This is called conditional election and resistible grace. Election is conditional upon employing the image of God in which man is made in. Your despising Gen. 1.26,27 is most apparent.

Understand how you confuse the fallen nature with total depravity. Total depravity says man can't choose because the image of God has been killed. Fallen nature says the man is corrupted by sin, but is still made in God's image, and through that image can come to the cross, and drawn by God, to receive God's saving grace. Man's flesh does not seek God, but man's will made in God's image yet can come to the cross. You are having massive difficulty splicing this truth, and because your conscience can't reach this truth it demands your faith in another way of thinking you were premade for salvation like a robot.

> A Christian (OSAS arminian) may lose rewards of the kingdom for not letting
> God work a complete work in the believer unto overcoming. God deals with
> this lack through loss of rewards in outer darkness, outside the light of
> rewards of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years.

>
> You are assuming dispensationalism, and a particlar brand of that also,
> here.

God works in time and time is real, so there is no assumption. Why so hostile to God's working in time? This is that strange spirit about you that causes you to reject God's use of time.

> Also, Christians believe in justification by faith as well as sanctification
> by faith. We are sanctified (cleansed) through faith in Christ bringing in
> God's grace. Both sanctification and justification are not divorced.

>
> When I mean that a modern-day Arminian like Dave Hunt divorces justification
> from sanctification, I DO NOT mean that they are not both by faith. What I
> meant is that in such a view, a person can be justified but may not undergo
> the process of sanctification. In other words, sanctification is optional in
> the life of a Christian, though he/she may lose many rewards because of
> this, as per what you have said in the passage preceeding this.

Sanctification is being made holy before God. We are all His holy ones, for He has given us His uncreated life. What you are referring to is consecration not sanctification.

> So this is another problem you have in sinning bearing false witness. You
> can see why God has a big problem with judging, for it is the judger that is
> so often wrong.

>
> Perhaps, but judging from the number of strawmen that I am seeing in this
> email, I suspect the charge of bearing false witness could apply to you

What strawmen, you don't say, so don't just self-declare it, for that is itself a strawman. Learn to deal in specifics.

> As a consequence of what you believe, you would not be saved for you claim
> you were saved another way. If you commit crime, war, hate, murder, these
> are most likely your false fruit we know you by.

>
> I, and all other Calvinists, are saved through our belief and acceptance of
> the atoning blood of Jesus Christ which He shed on the Cross for all
> believers. I honestly do not know what 'other way' you are talking about. I
> have stated in my OSAS article that we Calvinists do not divorce
> justification from sanctification, thus we believe that all who are saved
> will grow in holiness in Christ, otherwise we do not regard them as being
> saved at all (1 Jn. 2:19 ). In fact, your argument of knowing by false fruit
> is the argument made by Dan Corner, who uses that to argue against OSAS and
> say that it is a damnable doctrine that brings people to hell.

You have contradicted yourself, for you said you are saved through your belief, whereas before you said your God saved you first then you could believe. You are talking like an OSAS arminian when you say you are saved through the choice of your belief to receive grace. All I can say to that is be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

You like to name drop, silly. What we have learned, as I have talked to hundreds of calvinists before you, and helped many who end up repenting, is that you claim the only way you can come out of total depravity is if God saves you first like a robot, then you can believe. This is the evil teaching for your god which does not save others and lets them perish, hand-picking pridefilled souls who think they were saved first before they could believe, so that the belief from the image of God doesn't matter, but that your god preprograms by destiny certain souls to be saved. There is the utter lack of intuitive acceptance of being made in God's image which God glorifies to allow the freedom to come to or refuse the cross. Also, observe your duplicity, where you say you don't know what you mean by this other way of salvation you are under all the while arguing yourself against OSAS arminian. Again, this is another false fruit. One by one they are able to be exposed. Your heresy all falls on the two words, Total Depravity, for that is all you see, you don't see man made in God's image. That is the best way I know how to say it. You don't know how to splice or peal off the parts that are unnecessary. Peal off the flesh of the will and below that is our very being made in the image of God Whom God is waiting for us to employ to receive grace.

> Calvinism splits these two by claiming the former and no matter what sin it
> engages in, it just self-declares the latter, not realizing the former was
> not actually accomplished in the first place by the grace of God because of
> saying salvation is by premaking like robots

>
> This is a strawman!!. Show me one Calvinist which believes in this type of
> trash and I will show you an unbeliever. We are saved when we believe in
> Christ, not by 'premaking like robots'. However, this is accomplished by God
> the Father choosing us believers before the foundation of the world, the Son
> atoning for us believers, and the Holy Spirit regenerating us (born-again)
> so that we have faith to choose Christ.

You have said it over and over in your speech that you believe God saves first then you can believe. This is the evil of roboticism. You said it, this is your strawman, but God in the Bible allowed Abel to choose proper offering, He did not save him first. Nor did God overlook Cain, for it was Cain's choice being made in God's image with a free-will to deny his own salvation. We are saved when we believe in Christ, which means God does not save us first, for we saved after we believe. God choosing us before the foundations of the world does not mean He saves us first, but that He foreknows our choice, the very meaning of Rom. 8.29. To regenerate a person first is to make them zombies first and then the zombie believes. This is how I know you are not born-again for this is utterly evil that your god would not regenerate people first, then because of not regenerating them, then they would go to hell. No. God offers salvation to all, and without yet saving anyone, men are allowed the choice made in God's image to receive the cross to then be saved after first believing. Calvinism is the greatest heresy in the history of the kingdom of heaven, and it is what is keeping you eternally separated from God. When you get to GWT you will say to yourself something like, "I can't believe how belligerent I was and how obviously dumb and obstinate I was being about the whole thing with the legalism of total depravity which caused me to mistakenly believe that God had to save first and not save others before they could believe or be swept over". Crazy stuff. God does not sweep over anyone and that is what you are proposing to premaking them for hell and others for heaven. Your conscience can't sense this because it is hung up on the initial mistaken assumption of total depravity and rejecting the essence of ability of our being made in God's image to be able to meet Christ at the cross synergistically. This is how God made us in His image. We are not automatons, and thus, you have this extreme Pharasaical legalism you just can't let die on the cross.

>This is the libertarian free-will that is masked in roboticism

>
> Perhaps you can learn how to use the phrase libertarian free will properly,
> now that you are informed of its correct definition?

Your conscience can't see your own libertarianism in liberally claiming you were premade for salvation. This is a great log in your eye. Don't deflect away from it but repent. I am not sure how one can get more libertarian than our belief by your own choosing.

>Thank the Lord self-declarations are not true, but selfish and self-centered. Why do you do this? It is to cover up the the lie in your heart about what you really believe. It is a misdirection if you will ...
You should repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I tell you this all unapologetically. ...
>You may claim you were made this way as a result of your calvinism regeneration, but this more likely is just your unsalvation: a false salvation of the tares who try to look like the wheat. ...
>There is no such recourse under calvinism, and thus what happens is your lower your conscience and presume you are abiding, when in fact you are not, but getting farther and farther into deception, because there is no consequences. ...
>Did you know the Holy Spirit has revealed to me you have never been born-again?

> Besides the fact that all these phrases commit the ad-hominen fallacy, I do
> not think that you have the right to question my motives - to say that I am
> covering up the truth which I 'actually believe in' (according to you). I
> think also that you are being judgmental when you declare me an unbeliever
> without valid proof, and furthermore, by invoking the Holy Spirit and saying
> that He has revealed it to you is firstly, blasphemy, since it is false.
> Secondly, it is a denial of Sola Scriptura or Scripture alone for you to
> claim extrabiblical revelation.

All these statements are true reflecting the heresy of total depravity and your attempt at killing the image of God. Your efforts are just ad-hominem fallacies, because you never address what you are doing here in these false teachings of killing the image of God. I do not question your motives. God reveals them by the Holy Spirit and I kindly share them with you to help you receive Christ into your life. It is not according to me, but according to God's Spirit. I certainly could not have fathomed what you were really doing. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that reveals your prideful pedestal in claiming predestination is by premaking not be foreknowledge. I do not judge you, for God judges you. Don't kill the messenger. Don't kill the image of God either. The proof has been well established Gen. 1.26,27 says we are made in God's image, there is the garden choice before the fall, and after the fall, all exhibiting the characterstic of the image of God choosing, but never do we see the image of God being destroyed as you need to be the case for you theory. The image of God does not need to be destroyed if there total depravity is a lie, so you know it is a lie, because the image of God is real. The Word agrees, and you add to the Bible by claiming a word " total depravity" that is not in the Scriptures which means that you need to be saved first before you can believe like a machine or a robot or a zombie or a prideful legalist.

> (Also, for a refutation of your misusage of Rom. 8:28 -30, you can look at
> http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/ddd_chc82/theology/Review_anti_Calvinism.html
>  - the first part. Foreknew is NOT equal to foreknowledge, if you read the
> Greek. Also, from your articles, I see that you make the error of assuming
> that responsibility implies ability, which is ridiculous since God does
> demands things of us which we can't do - i.e. God demands that we are holy
> but we can never be holy.)

Changing words is all you can do now. Now foreknowledge is not foreknowledge. If you read the Greek you would realize foreknowledge is always foreknowledge. You have no faith to believe in God's infinite foreknowledge because you believe in a lesser god. That's what it come down to. You have no faith to believe that God can foresee billions of years into the future. O ye of no faith. Responsibility is not to suggest things we can not do, but things we can do. That's why it is responsibility. Through God's grace we overcome in Christ. There is not only the righteousness of Christ but also the righteousness of the saints. This speaks of our responsibility to God's grace. This is not so hard to understand.

> It is my wish that you sincerely give heed to what I have said and at least
> stop misrepresenting us. If you want to refute what I have written, the very
> least you could do is to represent Calvinism properly, and also take care of
> your logical (never mind biblical) inconsistency when Dan Corner and co. come
> knocking at your back door for your embrace of the doctrine of eternal
> security.

My prayer for you is that you realize that salvation is not before believing. God foreknowing our choice does not mean God saves us first, but that He foreknows if we will come to the cross, because He is all-knowing, all-seeing. And my prayer is that you see that you are not totally deprave. You are fallen, but not totally deprave. This means that you are still made in God's image to receive the cross, and you do not need to be zombified, premade, preprogrammed, saved first. That is puffed up to think that the reason you believe is because you were premade that way, chosen first. God chooses because He foresees our choice (Rom. 8.29, the most powerful proof against calvinism, which you are betray yourself, because you tried to change the meaning of the word foreknowledge to not mean foreknowledge). You are totally exposed when you do that is unethical and immoral. The unsaved will never have faith to believe as you do.

What you are doing is holding this pride within your heart of thinking you were premade for salvation (unconditional election, irresistible grace, limited atonement). All these ideas ring of the arian nation, the chosen race. The natural selection. This is evil for God offers salvation to all, man can resist grace of new birth, and election is conditional upon the choice to believe. If it was not so, then you have robots that can't resist are limited and are unconditionally responsible like robots. This is your sin and separation from God.

Stop trying to misrepresent OSAS arminian for it totally exposes you as unscrupulous.

A closing thought: With your premade idea, you can lower your conscience because you were saved anyway. You come to the cross falsely by being saved first before believing. This is a false when to come to the cross, so you were not repentant authentically at the start. Satan comes right in at the moment of possible salvation to steal away new birth from you. You let him win. How tragic. The other negative consequence is non-believers don't get saved because they hear this salvation of just those who are limitedly selected are saved, so they have no hope. You not only turn people away from Christ, but you cause in you a replicatory for salvation. This is proven by the fact you will never repent from killing the image of God as you deny His infinite foreknowledge to know whom will receive the cross - desperate you seeking to change the meaning of the word, foreknowledge.

That is that.

Conclusion: puritans were not pure and reformed did not reform

2b) Daniel's response to Troy (6th Apr 2006 )

Dear Troy ,

I am very disappointed in your response. It seems that you are so arrogant to think you can define my position for me. Can you interact with my position instead of all your ridiculous strawmen? I will only respond to your attempted refutation, and ignore all your blatant ad hominem slurs and insults you have piled on me, which if you have noticed, I did not do likewise to you as I tried to think the best of you.

The 4 points of arminian are not easy believism, but God's way of salvation along with preservation of the saints (OSAS) as taught by Christians (OSAS arminians). The 4 points of calvinism are easy believism, for it says to delude yourself that you are premade for salvation like a robot, then you are saved, not requiring true repentance to come to the cross. How easier could it be!

Strawman!! We believe that salvation involves repentance, as a cursory look at my article on soteriology should have told you.

I am not a name dropper like yourself as that is merely looking onto men for your answers instead of the Word of God.

Not a name dropper? Hello, what about the terms 'roboticism'? And just who is the one incessantly calling me an unbeliever? Your hypocrisy is revealing.

But, total depravity is false, since though we are fallen, we are not totally deprave because if it was so, we would not be made in God's image with a right to come to the cross to receive God's saving grace. You see God's image, directly contradicts the false teaching of total depravity.

So are you accusing the Bible of teaching falsehood? I would really want to see you exegete Ps. 14:2-3 and Rom. 3:10-18, if you can. The Imago Dei does not in any way refer to Man being able to seek God. And what right do you think we have to come to the cross? Didn't God say that it is by grace we have been saved, and not by ourselves (Eph. 2:8-9)? Since when was the privilege of coming to Christ a right you can demand of God? Does God owe you your salvation?

Yet, Romans 8.29 says, God predestinates by foreknowledge: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate".

I have asked you to study the Greek. If you want to debate the Greek, then by all means. Otherwise, stop parroting the same old argument that has been refuted in my article which I have linked in my last email.

Some are blotted out who were first in those books. It is because the choice is made to continue to refuse God's grace, ...

So how can you believe in OSAS when you say that some people who were initially in have their names blotted out? By your admission, you are denying OSAS.

... because they were premade that way to go to hell.
... We do not choose Christ by the fallen will, but by the will made in God's image which we are still made in.
... You also erred by saying that all sinners deserve hell, ...
... but man's will made in God's image yet can come to the cross

'... which we are still made in'? '... erred by saying all sinners deserve hell'? 'man's will .. can come to the cross'? Excuse me? Do you realize what you are saying? You have just denied original sin. You are not an Arminian; you are a Pelagian. This is what Arminians believe:

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); ... (Article 3, The Remonstrant articles)
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil. ... (Article 4, The Remonstrant articles)

And this is what all Arminains, Calvinists, and even Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believe:

The Canons of the Council of Orange (529AD)

CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16 ); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19 ).

CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race , he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

So your denial of original sin shows that you are NOT even an Arminian, regardless of what you say.

The Bible does not ask you to believe because you are saved already, but asks you to believe because you are not saved. First you must believe. This is proper cause and effect.

How many strawmen must you come up with? Why can't you just accurately present your opponent's position? We are saved by believing in Christ, but we are unable to do that until the Spirit regenerates us.

Here then we see the libertarian free will at work in calvinism ...

Until you get your definition of libertarian free will right, what you just written is next to useless.

Our being cleansed before God, is our sanctification by faith. If anything is lacking in a believer, it is consecration, setting himself apart for God, which not all Christians do, so not all believers will receive rewards.

...

Sanctification is being made holy before God. We are all His holy ones, for He has given us His uncreated life. What you are referring to is consecration not sanctification.

No wonder. You redefine the meaning of the word sanctification and create a term called consecration. May I remind you that redefinition of words that have established meanings long before anyone of us were born is blatantly wrong? Sanctification comes from the word sanctify which also give rise to the word sanctuary. It means to be set apart; to be holy. So you initial objection is void, since you DO divorce justification and sanctification after all.

 

You say you are saved first like a robot, then you can believe like a robot switch turned on.

Strawman again! I was not saved first. I was elected first, then I was regenerated, I believed and then I am saved.

You have contradicted yourself, for you said you are saved through your belief, whereas before you said your God saved you first then you could believe.

I DID not say that God saved me before I believe. I said that God elected me first before I could believe. Can you at least read what I wrote?

You have no faith to believe that God can foresee billions of years into the future. O ye of no faith. Responsibility is not to suggest things we can not do, but things we can do.

It's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of what did God say in His Word, period. And if you say that responsibility implies that we can do those things which we are responsible for, please tell me how you are to do the command God gave us in 1 Peter 1:14-16; that we are to be holy as God is holy.

What we have learned, as I have talked to hundreds of calvinists before you, and helped many who end up repenting

We? Oh well.... what ministry are you part of, may I know? And what denomination do you belong to? Also, what church do you attend? Are you an American ?

 

Your heresy ...

Oh well, I will not respond to all the other purposeful misrepresentations of my beliefs, nor all the arrogant pontificatious statements you make of me. Before I go on further, since you are so sure of your beliefs and my error, do you mind if I post this correspondence on my website for all to see? I will let you post one last time if you so want to and I will not respond to it and will post that response on my website. How about that? You have the last word?

Finally, in conclusion, I am calling your bluff. You are neither an Arminian nor do you believe in OSAS. You are a Pelagian heretic and you do not know Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs run counter to the beliefs of Christendom for at least the last 1500 years and in fact are opposite to those of Christ and the Apostles. Since that is the case, I call on you to repent of your heresy and to turn to Christ now.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that saves Man; that we are created by God (Gen. 1:27), that we fell in Adam and became sinful (Gen. 3:1-19), that all of us have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Rom. 3:23) and that we are thus subject to the wrath of God (Rom. 1:18), and our depravity is such that our inclination of our hearts is towards wickedness (Gen. 6:5; Rom. 3:10-18) and that we can not chose God on our own (Ps. 14:2-3, Rom. 3:11). However, Jesus Christ came down to die on the cross so that all who believe in him will not perish but have eternal life (Jn. 3:16), such that we are to repent of our sins (Acts 2:38-39; Acts 17:30) and believe and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, thus following Christ and denying ourselves daily (Mt. 16:24-26; Lk. 9:22-24).

It is my wish that you repent of your heresy and turn to Christ now while you are still alive on this earth. God has promised that if you will repent and turn to Him, your sins will be forgiven (Acts. 3:19 ). However, if you harden your heart and dwell deeper into your deception, be forewarned! God has promised that you will spend eternity in hell away from Him, finally being thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) if you persist in your unbelief. You will be one of those whom the Lord will say at the last day, "I never knew you; depart from me, you worker of lawlessness" (Mt. 7:23 ). May God grant you repentance from your heresies. Amen.

Addenum:

And oh,

by the way, I see how you have misrepresented Matt Slick as well. Oh well, is there any Calvinist in which you do not misrepresent? Why don't you try to take on Dr. James R. White, Dr John MacAthur, Dr. John Piper or even Elder Philip R. Johnson? May God grant you repentance to eternal life.

 

3a) Troy's response to Daniel (6th Apr 2006)

You have the same problem as these men. May God grant you and them new birth upon, and if, there is repentance to receive salvation, not by believing in being puffed up and pride-filled thinking salvation comes before repentance. Shame you's

3b) Daniel's email to Troy (6th Apr 2006)

Hey Troy,

do you mind if I put our exchange on my website? After all, you did put the letter to Matt Slick on yours. And which church and denomination are you from?

4a) Troy's response to Daniel (6th Apr 2006)

> Dear Troy,
> I am very disappointed in your response. It seems that you are so arrogant
> to think you can define my position for me. Can you interact with my
> position instead of all your ridiculous strawmen? I will only respond to
> your attempted refutation, and ignore all your blatant ad hominem slurs and
> insults you have piled on me, which if you have noticed, I did not do
> likewise to you as I tried to think the best of you.

Now through that disappoint, know you are deceived. Repent first then you shall be saved if you believe from this repentance of being made in God's image. You have told me your position which I have shown you is wrong, but you are not listening. No matter what I think of you, you'll still need to be born-again: repent first, and not think you need to be saved first before you can believe and repent. God will not save you this way. You do dish your ad hominems. Don't deceive yourself, for much is quotable to show you otherwise. What I tell you is the truth, these are the causes for your pride-filled belief you think you are premade for salvation. Thank God that God does not save first, premaking robots.

> The 4 points of arminian are not easy believism, but God's way of salvation
> along with preservation of the saints (OSAS) as taught by Christians (osas
> arminians). The 4 points of calvinism are easy believism, for it says to
> delude yourself that you are premade for salvation like a robot, then you
> are saved, not requiring true repentance to come to the cross. How easier
> could it be!

> Strawman!! We believe that salvation involves repentance, as a cursory look
> at my article on soteiology should have told you.

If you believed in repentance, which your article shows you do not, then you would not say you are saved first then you believed, for God does not save first before repentance, nor does God save after repentance without believing first. Repentance comes from being made in God's image which some choose repentance, while others, such as yourself, do not sad to say. I am not disappointed in you for if I was, that would be pointing at myself. It is expected that men will refuse God's way of salvation for no other reason than independency.

> I am not a name dropper like yourself as that is merely looking onto men for
> your answers instead of the Word of God.

>
> Not a name dropper? Hello, what about the terms 'roboticism'? And just who is
> the one incessantly calling me an unbeliever? Your hypocrisy is revealing.

The word roboticism is not a person. You drop names of people. And isn't that the whole point, that you act like a machine, unlike a human being, claiming you are premade for salvation like a robot. How evil.

I do not call you an unbeleiver incessantly, but appropriately. This is true, so what you think is hypocrisy is what God says is the way you need to be saved. You don't really revile me as much as you revile God. Because I don't want you to go to hell, it is vital that you know you are not saved. If I never told, or only told you once or twice it would mean nothing. But I will tell you again and again, you need to be born-again before you can enter the kingdom of heaven, that is, the rewards of the millennium. Not only must you be saved, but you also must overcome in Christ to receive such a reward for God makes Christians accountable too.

 
> But, total depravity is false, since though we are fallen, we are not
> totally deprave because if it was so, we would not be made in God's image
> with a right to come to the cross to receive God's saving grace. You see
> God's image, directly contradicts the false teaching of total depravity.

> So are you accusing the Bible of teaching falsehood? I would really want to
> see you exegete Ps. 14:2-3 and Rom. 3:10-18, if you can. The Imago Dei does
> not in any way refer to Man being able to seek God. And what right do you
> think we have to come to the cross? Didn't God say that it is by grace we
> have been saved, and not by ourselves (Eph. 2:8-9) ? Since when was the
> priveledge of coming to Christ a right you can demand of God? Does God owe
> you your salvation?

The Bible is not teaching a falsehood, but a truth, that we are made in God's image which does not agree with the false teaching of total depravity.

Psalms 14.2-3 speaks of the flesh, not one man can come to God by the flesh. This is why we need the work of the Holy Spirit to convince and change men, but this does not mean that God gives new birth before repentance. Not at all. Rather, it means God works righteously in all that He does to affect a change in men, which commenced with creating man in His image with a right to choose the cross through repentance. You need to ask yourself why you keep overlooking this fact? You must have done it now at least 2 dozen times. Not once do you address this truth. Don't be so afraid but look at this information. Rom. 3.10-18 holds the same principle as Ps. 14.2-3.

Only now, for the first time do you address the image of God. You ask me why I keep telling you that you are not saved and need to be born-again first. It is for the same reason that I have had to tell you so many times about the image of God, and only now do you first begin to look at what I am showing you.

The image of God does refer to man being able to choose God for if man was not made in God's image, man would just be a robot. You have said it yourself you are a robot by saying you can not come to the cross by the grace of being made in God's image. You are rejecting God's very gift of making us in His image, and worshipping another by saying it is not by the grace of the gift of being made in His image that you can repent. You choose for yourself then a Satanic grace in which it premakes you to be saved like a robot. This is evil, and you are not regenerated sad to say. You clearly don't want to repent either so that you may be saved by His grace.

And, you deny the right to come to the cross of being made in God's image. We all have that right, for that is what Jesus died for, for all mankind and the sins of the whole world. Your issue is not with me, but with your creator whom you reject. This right God has given us is not a demand, but a promise of God, and so should we abide in that promise and not say we are robots premade for salvation. You are obliviously that you are going to hell, and I can't convince you, for not even God can convince you that you are not saved first before believing. O lost soul you are. How sad your state is to me that you reject God's saving grace.

> Yet, Romans 8.29 says, God predestinates by foreknowledge: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate".

> > I have asked you to study the Greek. If you want to debate the Greek, then
> by all means. Otherwise, stop parroting the same old argument that has been
> refuted in my article which I have linked in my last email.

There is nothing wrong with the Greek. There is no issue with Greek. If there was you could show it but you don't. Translators translated accordingly. Foreknowledge is foreknowledge. You seek to change the times and the ways. Nothing in your article substantiates your claim that foreknowedge is not foreknowledge.

Realize right here and now, you are sinking in quicksand and are relying on self-declaration. LIke I said, none can help you, for you don't want to be helped. However, I would suggest you at least be honest with yourself, by admitting the reason you seeking to change basic words is because it is vital to your heresy of having no faith in Jesus Christ.

 

> Some are blotted out who were first in those books. It is because the choice
> is made to continue to refuse God's grace, ...

>
> So how can you believe in OSAS when you say that some people who were
> intially in have their names blotted out? By your admission, you are denying
> OSAS.

Every single person has his name in the book of life, and then, one by one are blotted out that don't get saved. This means that it was God's desire to save every single last soul that ever lived, but one by one men chose to blot themselves out, just as you blot yourself out by claiming you were premade for salvation like a robot and attempting to kill the image of God. You not only do not have faith to believe in Christ, but you don't even have faith to believe you were and always will be made in God's image to choose. The will is the very essence of the man made in His image.

By my admission, ergo, I accept OSAS. Your flesh is merely on a rampage. It is a sickness in the mind's reasoning that you controlled by strongholds in mind.

 

> ... because they were premade that way to go to hell.
> ... We do not choose Christ by the fallen will, but by the will made in God's image which we are still made in.
> ... You also erred by saying that all sinners deserve hell, ...
> ... but man's will made in God's image yet can come to the cross

>
> '... which we are still made in'? '... erred by saying all sinners deserve
> hell'? 'man's will .. can come to the corss'? Excuse me? Do you realise what
> you are saying? You have just denied original sin. You are not an Arminian;
> you are a Pelagian. This is what Arminians believe:

I have not denied the original sin. Your imagination is run amuck. Man is fallen. And the fallen man is hellbound, but by the grace of God, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. This means by the image of God, man can come to the cross to receive that saving grace. At the end of the day, you are teaching zombiism, or roboticism. You think you are a robot premade for God by salvation because you deny the original sin. The original sin does not mean we are not made in God's image. It means we are fallen by the flesh, and if Jesus does not die on the cross, none can be saved. Do you see how you destroy not only the image of God, but also the essence of what the original disobedience was? You are in big trouble. The trouble you are in is the road to perdition.

> That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free
> will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself
> neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving
> Faith eminently is); ... (Article 3, The Remonstrant articles)
> That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of
> all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without
> prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can
> nei�ther think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil.
> ... (Article 4, The Remonstrant articles)

You don't say what your issue is with this point. Are you against that man has no saving grace of himself? This would mean you think man can save himself. Are you against that man can neither think nor will nor do good without God? If so, then you are in favor of claiming that man can do good of his own, and is why of your own you choose to believe you were premade for salvation like a robot and kill the image of God. You see calvinists are greatly pained when they have to examine they are made in God's image because all this time, you for example, have been focused on the false teaching of total depravity which requires destroying the image of God. You can't destroy God's image, no matter how hard you try with calvinism.

You might want to be more clear what your issues is. Make a comment on the information you quote rather than just mindlessly quoting it. What you have done is the equivalent of a self-declaration which is irrelevant. I can quote anything too, but I will have the courteousy to explain it to and not be so selfish. Your selfishness is your false fruit which I know you by.

History does not agree with you.

Remonstrants, the name given to those Dutch Protestants who, after the death of Arminius, maintained the views associated with his name, and in 1610 presented to the states of Holland and Friesland a remonstrance in five articles formulating their points of departure from stricter Calvinism.

These were:

 The 5th point of arminian is wrong here of course, this is why most arminians are OSAS.

 

> And this is what all Arminains, Calvinists, and even Roman Catholic and
> Eastern Orthodox believe:

>
> The Canons of the Council of Orange (529AD)

> CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and
> soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin,
> but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only
> the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius
> and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die"
> (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone
> as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom.
> 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet.
> 2:19 ).

Amen. This is not why you are unsaved. You are unsaved because you think you were premade for salvation pridefully like a robot to counter this canon. God does not save that way.

You're heavy into name dropping. Now you are dropping remonstrants, lol.

Remonstrants basically means, non-calvinst. They are arminian non-OSAS. They are not arminian OSAS.


CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his
> descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of
> the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is
> the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race , he
> does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as
> sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death
> spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

Amen. Again, this is not why you are unsaved. You are unsaved because you claim you were saved a way not disclosed in the Bible, by you thinking you were premade for salvation like a robot.


> CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from
> sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us
> through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy
> Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord"
> (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work
> in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Same as before.

 

> So your denial of original sin shows that you are NOT even an Arminian,
> regardless of what you say.

I do not deny the original sin as was shown. But, in fact, you do deny the original sin because you think it means that the image of God is destroyed so that you can not come to the cross by the grace of God given to you in the right to receive salvation by being made in God's image. What you are essentially doing is pointing to YOU as the center because you think you are saved because YOU think you were premade for salvation. It all centers on you requiring God to save you first before you can believe. YOU in fact never believed to begin with. Crazy stuff. What can God do but send you to hell for you reject His love through the atonement on the cross. This has been your choice up to now.

> The Bible does not ask you to believe because you are saved already, but
> asks you to believe because you are not saved. First you must believe. This
> is proper cause and effect.

>
> How many strawmen must you come up with? Why can't you just accurately
> present your opponent's position? We are save by believing in Christ, but we
> are unable to do that until the Spirit regenerates us.

John 3.16,18 says to believe. God said to Abel give a right offering. Calvinism is a strawman. He does not say to do these things because they are saved already, for if that was true, then Cain would be saved, because God said he same thing to Cain.

Know why you can't repent of this sin of separation from God. It is because you were never born-again.

God does not regenerate you first; first you must believe, then He will regenerate you. It is a strawman to to believe that you are a premade (regenerated first) robot. Don't you know the reason you believe this is because you don't actually believe in God to have the foreknowledge to know our choices? Many such as yourself can't fathom that God has this foreknowledge, because they (you) do not have a regenerated sprit to know it. Since you are not saved, you don't know it; that is, you don't truly know it deeply. When you are saved, this is light God gives. Before being saved things are quite foggy, obviously as we can see you can't get it into your conscience. First your conscience must be sparked with God's life. A whole class of unsaved people want to believe they are robots. If you were born-again, you could repent from this lie. But because you are controlled by a demon of this teaching, you can't repent, and it makes it very difficult to give up what you believe even though salvation is on one hand the simplest thing in the world. All you need to do is truly believe. Ultimately, you don't truly believe Jesus is God, so you go for the robot teaching. First you need to be saved. In order to be saved, you must repent first. It is a choice to repent as a helpless sinner despite the fogginess of your head. If you can't do it, you won't be saved. All instances of salvation in the Bible first started with repentance and God's foreknowledge of that repentance which you have said you rejected so many times.


> Here then we see the libertarian free will at work in calvinism ...

>
> Until you get your definition of libertarian free will right, what you just
> written is next to useless.

The definition is right, and you are under libertarian free-will. That is, you have your free-will which you wield like a libertarian to believe just about anything and as liberal as that of thinking you were premade for salvation like a robot. You were not. You weren't even premade for hell. God does foresee your choice whether you will believe in Him.

Determinism is causes and effects. No great revelation there. Libertarian free-will is against the compatibility of a free-will with determinism. You are against determinism for you deny causes and effects as you have twisted them around. And you believe in libertarian free will because you do not believe in proper cause and effect in association with a free-will. This is exposed in you when you say you need to be saved first before you can believe, when this cause does not exist in this order except in you imagination because of the pride and trying to save yourself by your own strength with this idea hostile to God as you point to yourself. If you really did not believe you had a libertarian free-will then you would not think you were a robot premade for salvation, and may I saw without any humility in your current stance. You see your lack of humility in proclaiming the order of thinking you were premade for salvation, in your conscience you can't sense does not glorify God, for God wants to walk with those made in His image to receive the cross. It is true. Jesus really will return to walk on Earth for 1000 years before the New City starts. Many who are calvinists also deny the millennial kingdom; though there are the spurgeons that are post trib calvinists, to name one the most promiment names in Christendom.

 

> Our being cleansed before God, is our sanctification by faith. If anything
> is lacking in a believer, it is consecration, setting himself apart for God,
> which not all Christians do, so not all believers will receive rewards.
> ...
> Sanctification is being made holy before God. We are all His holy ones, for
> He has given us His uncreated life. What you are referring to is
> consecration not sanctification.

>
> No wonder. You redefine the meaning of the word sanctification and create a
> term called consecration. May I remind you that redefinition of words that
> have established meanings long before anyone of us were born is blatantly
> wrong? Sanctification comes from the word sanctify which also give rise to
> the word sanctuary. It means to be set apart; to be holy. So you initial
> objection is void, since you DO divorce justification and sanctification
> after all.

Consecration is in the Bible. No wonder you are having troubles. This word is all through Exodus and Numbers. "And he brought the other ram, the ram of consecration: and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram" (Lev. 8.22). This is our consecration before God, setting ourself apart for God. You do not accept words long before held to be the expression of our separation to God. You do separate justification and sanctification (though men of the flesh do), for we are sanctified by faith and are justified by faith (together). We are justified by the blood which makes us holy before God (sanctified), that is sanctified, and we are His sanctuary, an abode for the Holy Spirit to dwell in our spirit. Co-death with Christ as an accomplished fact has to be worked out in consecration as sanctification is to justification. You don't realize you are living by works: the works of the mind's claim you were premade for salvation like a robot and working to rationalize yourself in writings that are false. This is a work, not true faith, because you are wrong in what you are trying to rationalize: zombiism. Because you think sanctification is consecration, you have unwittingly created works for yourself, works of the mind without faith. For you, you are not made holy before God by the precious blood since you are not saved and deny sanctification by faith, since you say sanctification is separating yourself, which is a work, Consecration is not by faith, for those who consecrate themselves already have faith, even are justified by faith and sanctified by faith. You are trying to work your salvation to a new birth through rationalizations: that is, this is how you come across in practice which is a false fruit. This is why in calvinism you find 1001 articles on a calvinist site. They are trying to convince themselves they are right by brainwashing.

Romans proves to us that a sinner cannot be justified by works of the law. Galatians shows us that a believer cannot be sanctified by works of the law. We are sanctified by faith as well as justified by faith. How can we begin in the Spirit and try to be perfected in the flesh? In any case, the seal has already been put on us. So then, they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

 

> You say you are saved first like a robot, then you can believe like a robot
> switch turned on.

>
> Strawman again!
I was not save first. I was elected first, then I was
> regenerated, I believed and then I am saved.

Election is conditional, based on our choice which God foresees. I was chosen before the foundations of the world, because in God's all-knowing He could foresee my choice. He predestinated me by foreknoweldge ( Rom. 8.29).

Your thought is a strawman that you are saved because you were elected first like a robot. This is evil, for it means also that God premade robots for hell too. None of this glorifies God. What glorifies God is His infinite foreknowledge, which you have serious issues with his word, but only by self-declaration and stemming from the evil spirit in your spirit. That's all you got.

You never believed because you never repented, and you never repented because you say you were regenerated before believing. You can't be regenerated before believing, because it requires true repentance, not fake repentance.

Take a look at the order in which God saved me (you'll need to be saved the same way): (1) He made me in His image before the foundations of the world out of His glory; (2) He elected me on the condition of my choice for Christ which He foresees which I could have resisted, (3) man fell, (4) Jesus died for all, an unlimited atonement (though not all recieve); (4) I was born into sin; (5) I repented from the gifting of being in His image for there was something He foredained, that is His son, to repent to.

Praise God. Thus, God does not premake men for salvation or for hell. He does not unconditionally elect, atone limitedly impotently, and grace is not zombiistically irresistible. Why? Because no soul that has ever lived has ever been totally deprave. All men are fallen but no man is totally deprave. You are living a lie and can't sense this truth because you are dead to God. All you can do is come to the cross to receive Christ as your Lord and Savior; only when you authentically do that will God save you and bring you into the new creation. He will not save you as long as you think you were saved first and then like a robot you believed by a switch that was robotically turned on. This is foolishness of the world to point to oneself pridefully they are like the arian nation.

 

> You have contradicted yourself, for you said you are saved through your
> belief, whereas before you said you God saved you first then you could
> believe.

>
> I DID not say that God save me before I believe. I said that God elected me
> first before I could believe. Can you at least read what I wrote?

To elect someone is to save them. Anyone who is not elect is not saved. Name one person who is elect who is not saved and one person who is not elect who is saved. I know of no such thing. Ergo, Election is salvation, and God's way of salvation, yet you admit, " God elected me first before I believed" Do you see you sin of doublespeak, where you say now that you were not saved before you believed, yet you say you were elected before you believed? When people get boxed into a corner, they will doubletalk like this. You hold the same teaching as always, unconditional election (the saved) like a robot then you believed. This is a sin, for election is conditional, not unconditional. God does not make robots. God foreknows who will choose the cross to elect them based on that condition; by being made in His image to be able to receive the cross by the Holy Spirit drawing. This beautiful truth escapes you sadly.

 

> You have no faith to believe that God can foresee billions of years into the
> future. O ye of no faith. Responsibility is not to suggest things we can not
> do, but things we can do.

>
> It's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of what did God say in His Word,
> period. And if you say that responsibility implies that we can do those
> things which we are responsible for, please tell me how you are to do the
> command God gave us in 1 Peter 1:14 -16; that we are to be holy as God is
> holy.

God's Word said we are justified by faith as well as sanctified by faith. We are not consecrated by faith, but we are consecrated by set ourself apart for God. Those who consecrate are already consecrated. God says it is a matter of faith, we must believe first before we are elected. Israel was the elect because God foresaw they were the nation He could first reveal Himself to. Why do you ask me responsibility is something we can not do after I already said responsibility is something we do? How odd that you keep repeating yourself mindlessly after I already said. God has set a responsibility before you to come to the cross to receiving His saving gace. If you do not, by thinking rather you were premade that way, that is elected first before His foreknowledge of our choice, then you are just believing in an evil god who is without the foreknowledge to forsee our choice. Surely hell is for you for it is what you want.

 

> What we have learned, as I have talked to hundreds of calvinists before you,
> and helped many who end up repenting

>
> We? Oh well.... what ministry are you part of, may I know? And what
> denomination do you belong to? Also, what church do you attend? Are you an
> American?

The Ministry I am apart of is The Ministry of the Work (Eph. 4.11). I see you are seeking for men's ways answers, for example dividing denominations, yet God said in the Bible don't say "I am of apollos" or "I am of cephas" which would point to denominations. Like Satan you ask what false division do you belong to? The same thing with the word "church," confusing the word "church" as likely some congregation, not according to God's way such as the Church of Ephesus or the church of Jerusalem. Next, you look for national divisions. All these are men's ways, none of which are God's ways in the Church. You are quite worldly and simply do not get God's plan in your will-worship.


> Your heresy ...

>
> Oh well, I will not respond to all the other purposeful misrepresentations
> of my beliefs, nor all the arrogant pontificatious statements you make of
> me. Before I go on further, since you are so sure of your beliefs and my
> error, do you mind if I post this correspondence on my website for all to
> see? I will let you post one last time if you so want to and I will not
> respond to it and will post that response on my website. How about that? You
> have the last word?

Your own words betray you. Total depravity is a lie, and you believe this lie because you have no faith to believe God made you in His image by His glory to be able to come to the cross to receive the saving grace of God. This is your problem, and yours alone. This prideful killing of God's image is just independent arrogance. You can post anything you like as I am a testimony for the Lord and an open book. Save these words on your site so that you can keep coming back to them and consider them again and again. There is a great bondage that you are under that only the cross can defeat.

> Finally, in conclusion, I am calling your bluff. You are neither an Arminian
> nor do you believe in OSAS. You are a Pelagian heretic and you do not know
> Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs run counter to the beliefs of
> Christendom for at least the last 1500 years and in fact are opposite to
> those of Christ and the Apostles. Since that is the case, I call on you to
> repent of your heresy and to turn to Christ now.

I am osas arminian. It is no bluff. It is true, I am osas arminian, for I was saved just in this fashion. You are an unsaved calvinist who is going to hell. Further proof is you claim I am unsaved, and members of the body of Christ do not say that to each other, so we know therefore one of us is not saved, and that happens to be you, since I am not the one who believes salvation is by being premade for salvation like a robot as do you. For 1500 years was the RCC who were not calvinists, but arminian, except they were wrong about non-OSAS. You may say Augustine was a calvinist, Luther was essentially a calvinist for total depravity teachings. Wesley was arminian, but he was wrong about non-OSAS. God's way is OSAS arminian. The past 1500 years the little flock would believe the equivalent of osas arminian. You are in the wide path of destruction. Paul who was an Apostles said predestination is by foreknowledge. You say God can't foreknow this because you don't have the faith to believe in God's all-knowing. You don't believe in God of the Bible, and thus are going to hell. A very reasonable assessment.

I pray one day you do come to the cross to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, and not by thinking you were unconditionally premade this way, but because if you are chosen if it is because God could foresee your conditional and resistible right to enter into the new creation.

When God spoke of the tares who are trying to look like the wheat, there is no more that qualify than the calvinists who demand they are premade for salvation like robots.

> This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that saves Man; that we are created by
> God (Gen. 1:27), that we fell in Adam and became sinful (Gen. 3:1-19), that
> all of us have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Rom. 3:23) and that we
> are thus subject to the wrath of God (Rom. 1:18), and our depravity is such
> that our inclination of our hearts is towards wickedness (Gen. 6:5; Rom.
> 3:10-18) and that we can not chose God on our own (Ps. 14:2-3, Rom. 3:11).
> However, Jesus Christ came down to die on the cross so that all who believe
> in him will not perish but have eternal life (Jn. 3:16), such that we are to
> repent of our sins (Acts 2:38-39; Acts 17:30) and believe and accept Jesus
> Christ as our Savior and Lord, thus following Christ and denying ourselves
> daily (Mt. 16:24-26; Lk. 9:22-24).

The flesh can not save is what this says essentially. Nor, in your case, can the will of the flesh that demands it is premade for salvation. True repentance is not demanding we were uncondionally elected and irresistibly graced like robots for a limited atonement, instead of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Do you see how we can what is the real issue? It is an issue of how you apply the Scriptures, but altering the causes and effects out of order that instill pride in you to think you were premade that way first, which requires killing the image of God. This is not possible but you claim you have done so because you say man can't come to the cross from the glory of being made in His image which the Holy Spirit first did enact. It is right at that point that you can't see it is the Spirit which is the breath of life into man that is the very cause for our right to come to the cross.

> It is my wish that you repent of your heresy and turn to Christ now while
> you are still alive on this earth. God has promised that if you will repent
> and turn to Him, your sins will be forgiven (Acts. 3:19 ). However, if you
> harden your heart and dwell deeper into your deception, be forewarned! God
> has promised that you will spend eternity in hell away from Him, finally
> being thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15 ) if you persists in your
> unbelief. You will be one of those whom the Lord will say at the last day,
> "I never knew you; depart from me, you worker of lawlessness" (Mt. 7:23 ).
> May God grant you repentance from your heresies. Amen.

Obviously you have no intention (you have made that perfectly clear as expected) for the rest of your life from ever repenting of the sin of believing you were premade for salvation like a robot. Therefore, God will not save you for you demand upon God a false salvation. Praise God not everyone is under your deception. By the grace of God He will not allow the redeemed to be under such deception puffed up to think they are premade for salvation in calvinism. Only unbelief could believe in this calvinism, the most vile heresy in the history of the sphere of the kingdom. Not only are the majority of those of all mankind are unsaved, but did you know that the majority in the sphere of the kingdom of heaven are unsaved also? That would be you, unsaved for this false salvation, which you refuse to repent from because you demand you were elected not to be able to refuse God. This is zombiism, roboticism. I can't think of any two words more accurate describe this sickeness.

That is that.

 

5a) Troy's response to Daniel's request (6th Apr 2006)

Only on one condition, provide a link here –

http://biblocality.com/forums Biblocality Christian Forums

Sometimes I put up other peoples' stuff, but you offered nothing I have not heard before. Basically your condition is summarized in the unregenerate explanations already given of Matt Slick who suffers your same disease. No need for me to continue repeating the same lunacy.

Think of it this way: you are aware there is a great divide from your clan calvinism and and that of osas arminian. They are diabolically opposite on all 5 points.

Thus you accused me of unsalvation and I know you are unsaved. None can convince you so there is the GWT that decides.

When you get there you will be dumfounded how you could have been so belligerent, as you are then cast into hell knowing you belong in hell.

The only reason we are even talking is because I don't want you to go there. It is God's will you don't go there, but He will not coerce you or premake you not to go there.


And to end up: I’ll say, give his forums a skip. He'll destroy your soul if you will allow him to.

And for those of you who are wondering, the quotes from the Remonstrant article and the Canons of the Council of Orange were to show that he denies original sin as stated in these documents, therefore he cannot be an Arminian nor even a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, and therefore he is a Pelagian heretic.

Anyway, enough of answering that fool! (Prov. 26:4) I have tried, but now only the Lord can remove the veil from that heretic's deluded eyes, heart and mind.