tombuazit (9:09:54 PM): how does this apply to things though you ask. Take free will v. determinism as a debate

tombuazit (9:10:51 PM): you can utilize your philosophical thought process and "sort" out the clutter, and see what you find buried. Slowly forming your philosophical theory on determinism or free will.

tombuazit (9:11:20 PM): we learn how to do the sorting, not what goes in each pile

kaci (9:13:07 PM): like morality and ethics

kaci (9:13:21 PM): the difference between them I mean

tombuazit (9:14:00 PM): yes

tombuazit (9:14:11 PM): ethics would use philosophy to sort

tombuazit (9:14:18 PM): morality uses rules

tombuazit (9:14:52 PM): those rules come from different places, in Abrahamic religions those rules come from God and go to Moses, who hands um out

tombuazit (9:15:16 PM): Socrates debated why morality was wrong and ethics correct

tombuazit (9:15:44 PM): I am not sure he is correct, but then I think that ethics are merely an attempt to hold onto our morality.

tombuazit (9:15:52 PM): but then I am a sadian

kaci (9:18:30 PM): huh

kaci (9:18:39 PM): interesting

kaci (9:19:52 PM): Thoreau said, "do not be too moral. you may cheat yourself out of much of life. so aim above morality. be not simply good; be good for something."

tombuazit (9:20:24 PM): lol

tombuazit (9:20:30 PM): ya

tombuazit (9:20:43 PM): Sade says force yourself to face freedom

tombuazit (9:22:44 PM): he belived, and I agree, that the statement "You are free" was true

tombuazit (9:23:42 PM): but also that none of really face that

tombuazit (9:23:48 PM): we don't really accept it

tombuazit (9:24:51 PM): we fill ourselves with all these bullshit reasons not to do what we want. And only by burning all these "rules, regrets, and concious" out of ourselves will we finally understnad what is free

kaci (9:26:11 PM): and why the pursuit of freedom?

tombuazit (9:27:35 PM): can there be a purer desire, then to fulfill desire

kaci (9:30:32 PM): what makes pure more ideal?

kaci (9:30:39 PM): it's simplicity?

tombuazit (9:31:07 PM): well pure as a word holds value within it

tombuazit (9:31:25 PM): but deeper then that, you got it

tombuazit (9:31:58 PM): the simple desire to fulfill desires of the self. that is the most basic

tombuazit (9:32:07 PM): the one that takes the fewest explainations

kaci (9:32:34 PM): but I don't understand why that makes it "better"

tombuazit (9:32:45 PM): the more complex a thing, the less likely that it is one of the basic building blocks

tombuazit (9:33:00 PM): "better" is not really the right word

tombuazit (9:33:10 PM): the most essential would be "better"

tombuazit (9:33:12 PM): the most baisc

tombuazit (9:34:03 PM): for sad only when you are compeletely free will you be able to decide what is "better" and then it will be "better" for you.

tombuazit (9:34:28 PM): not a universal "better"

kaci (9:36:07 PM): but to get there you must first decide that freedom is "better" or "best" for you and if you haven't acheived freedom yet, then you don't know that it is

tombuazit (9:36:12 PM): universal betters are an impossibility

tombuazit (9:36:29 PM): lol

tombuazit (9:36:33 PM): no no

tombuazit (9:37:07 PM): you don't really rach freedom, or acheive it. YOU ARE FREE

tombuazit (9:37:16 PM): you just don't realize it

tombuazit (9:37:30 PM): you stop yourself from being free, NO ONE ELSE CAN

tombuazit (9:38:40 PM): so when you "achieve" freedom its merely recoginizing your already free, and acting on that recognition

kaci (9:38:58 PM): okay, so until we understand freedom, not achieve it

tombuazit (9:39:10 PM): For Sade it was fine that most of the world would keep them selves in chains

tombuazit (9:39:27 PM): becaus it meant more slaves for the whim

tombuazit (9:40:16 PM): He attained freedom, and that was all he cared about. Others decide the same thing, realize the same thing, because of his written work.

tombuazit (9:40:30 PM): But you are free now

tombuazit (9:40:46 PM): I am frustrated with people that they do not see this.

tombuazit (9:41:00 PM): Because unlike Sade I do care that people I like are not free

kaci (9:41:45 PM): but you said, "only when you are completely free..."

kaci (9:41:53 PM): this I don't understand

tombuazit (9:42:07 PM): yes, it was a poor turn of phrase.

tombuazit (9:43:18 PM): it should be, "Only when you realize that you are free, and therefore complete your freedom and taken ownership of it, then you can decide what is truly "better" for you.

tombuazit (9:43:59 PM): you are free now, because only your choice stands between you and freedom. So ironicly you choose freely, to not be free.

kaci (9:44:18 PM): I'm still struggling to understand

tombuazit (9:44:23 PM): but the free choice is in ignorance

kaci (9:44:32 PM): yeah, that is my problem with it

kaci (9:44:38 PM): oh

tombuazit (9:44:52 PM): was that an oh of understanding?

kaci (9:45:01 PM): but, but,

tombuazit (9:45:08 PM): keep asking

tombuazit (9:45:42 PM): that is how philosophical therories work. Under constant attack, so we know which one is right

tombuazit (9:45:51 PM): or "better"

kaci (9:45:57 PM): I don't know how I can be free, choose freely, and have that ignorant choice cause me to not be free

tombuazit (9:46:14 PM): yes, that is a hard one

tombuazit (9:46:44 PM): ok,

tombuazit (9:47:13 PM): did I tell you about Sade's time in the Bastielle?

tombuazit (9:47:53 PM): He was kept in a solid black cell. HIs only human contact was two guards that would come in beat, rape, and feed him everyday

tombuazit (9:47:59 PM): did I tell you about this?

kaci (9:49:17 PM): yes

kaci (9:49:18 PM): yes

tombuazit (9:49:59 PM): ok, well it illustrates what he means by free

tombuazit (9:50:38 PM): and his first real realization that he is always free

kaci (9:50:53 PM): uh huh

tombuazit (9:51:32 PM): ok, now, if he had remainded ignorant of the fact that he is free, then he would have suffered for 9 years instead of just 2

tombuazit (9:51:57 PM): does that make sense?

kaci (9:52:16 PM): I do understand....

tombuazit (9:52:59 PM): ok, so he was free all nine of the years. But for the first 2 he didn't realize it, so his suffering continued

tombuazit (9:53:15 PM): until he did realize it

tombuazit (9:53:31 PM): does that make sense?

tombuazit (9:53:48 PM): step by step

kaci (9:53:49 PM): yes

tombuazit (9:54:11 PM): ok, so he was free before, he just didn't realize it

kaci (9:54:48 PM): right

tombuazit (9:54:57 PM): If A then B, IF free then in control of his actions

kaci (9:55:18 PM): right

tombuazit (9:57:50 PM): the last part is hard to explain now that I am here

kaci (9:58:11 PM): heehee

tombuazit (9:58:14 PM): he choose his actions, and his actions lead to his continued sufferign

tombuazit (9:58:54 PM): he was free to choose his desire, or his suffering

tombuazit (9:59:02 PM): as he proved in the 2nd year

tombuazit (9:59:14 PM): he choose suffering for two years

kaci (9:59:22 PM): yeah

tombuazit (9:59:31 PM): but he choose it only because he didn't realize he had another choice

kaci (9:59:41 PM): right

tombuazit (9:59:43 PM): but his lack of realization did not take that other choice away from him

kaci (10:01:23 PM): didn't it? the other choice was only there once he realized it? it wasn't available to him before than....it was there, but not for him, yet

kaci (10:01:50 PM): that, not than

tombuazit (10:01:54 PM): it was there, it was available. He just needed to stop thinkign and look

tombuazit (10:02:39 PM): it was in front of him, our freedom is in front of us all. It stands at the foot of your bed. It screams for you. But you ignore it

kaci (10:02:44 PM): stop thinking or start thinking?

tombuazit (10:02:51 PM): stop thinking

tombuazit (10:03:03 PM): and look

tombuazit (10:03:17 PM): that is from Witt, but it sums up this well

tombuazit (10:03:45 PM): your freedom, complete and total freedom stands before you inevery aspect of your life. You merely need to open your eyes and see it

tombuazit (10:03:55 PM): instead you choose to keep those eyes closed

tombuazit (10:04:06 PM): nobody else makes that choice for you

tombuazit (10:04:09 PM): you do

tombuazit (10:04:25 PM): it like covering your eyes all your life and calling yourself blind

kaci (10:04:29 PM): yeah, but I don't know about the thinking part

kaci (10:04:47 PM): just keep going, I'm getting stuck on the details

kaci (10:04:55 PM): I know what you are saying

tombuazit (10:04:59 PM): no, the details are the important part

tombuazit (10:05:28 PM): it is a whole, and each part must be understood

tombuazit (10:05:44 PM): let me explain the thinking part

tombuazit (10:06:12 PM): for Sade, when you "look" at your life you see freedom, you see all the things you can do.

tombuazit (10:06:55 PM): but then you start "thinking" about it. And all this bullshit external and internal "stuff" gets in the way of what you are looking at

tombuazit (10:07:30 PM): it is what closes your eyes, to your freedom.

tombuazit (10:07:46 PM): when you think, you are limiting yourself in ways you don't need to.

tombuazit (10:07:58 PM): but if you look, you see your choices, and their effects upon the world

tombuazit (10:08:52 PM): when you think, you make up shit, about how other people would react or think or feel, and that is bullshit. Unnecessary, limiting, and harmful to all concirned.

tombuazit (10:09:33 PM): most importantly, it is UNnecessary, limiting, and harmful to you.

kaci (10:10:11 PM): I understand the concept, but I think maybe I disagree with the words or something...I see it as the other way around for some reason

tombuazit (10:10:39 PM): thats because you are thinking and not looking

kaci (10:11:13 PM): whatever

tombuazit (10:11:38 PM): lol

tombuazit (10:12:11 PM): I guess "thinking" is seen as Noise

tombuazit (10:12:34 PM): while Looking seems to be the sound without the background noise

tombuazit (10:13:07 PM): thinking attempts to be the filter, but it filters out too much

tombuazit (10:13:59 PM): looking is the meadow in bloom, while thining is the dirty window between you and that meadow

tombuazit (10:14:56 PM): but the thinking and looking distinction is from Wittgenstein,a nd I add it into Sade myself, as way to clarify

kaci (10:15:32 PM): I still see it the other way around....when I look, I see a dirty window between me and a meadow, but when I stop to think about it, I know that I can find a way to open the window or break it or something

kaci (10:16:12 PM): things "Look" hopeless, by "thinking" I realize they are not

tombuazit (10:16:21 PM): but that is because you are looking at the dirty window and not the problem of finding the meadow

tombuazit (10:16:44 PM): both looking and thinking are used to solve problems

tombuazit (10:17:01 PM): but you are making it more complex then what is meant

kaci (10:17:23 PM): of course I am

tombuazit (10:17:32 PM): simplify simplify simplify

tombuazit (10:17:58 PM): but like I said the Think/look distincition not as important

kaci (10:18:54 PM): but before I get lost, this is what I've gotten so far: I am free. Once I realize I am free I can make choices that will fulfill my desires, but until I realize I am free I will suffer unnessecarily as if I were not free

tombuazit (10:19:15 PM): close

tombuazit (10:23:23 PM): you are right, but I would make this change maybe, though it might seem more confusing let me know "I am a free agent. Once I realize and start making my choices as a free agent, then I will begin making choices that will fullfill my true desires. Until I realize all my choices are free, I will make those choices as if I were not free, which could cause me to suffer unnessecarily."

tombuazit (10:25:05 PM): the could is important. Because I could make choices without the relazation that might still give me pleasure.

tombuazit (10:25:17 PM): but ussually you will limit yourself

tombuazit (10:25:39 PM): think on it for about 5 minutes, i want to go out and play in the rain

kaci (10:25:51 PM): why do you use the word agent?

kaci (10:25:54 PM): okay

tombuazit (10:32:49 PM): the word agent refers to you as an individual

tombuazit (10:33:16 PM): now lets look at those things that stop you from freedom

tombuazit (10:33:34 PM): it more then a lack of realization

kaci (10:33:37 PM): so when you say true desire, you mean our most basic desires?

tombuazit (10:33:47 PM): yes and no

tombuazit (10:34:03 PM): I mean those things you really desire

tombuazit (10:34:18 PM): but they are ussually basic desires like pleasure

tombuazit (10:34:33 PM): but don't have to be

tombuazit (10:34:40 PM): it will be unique to you

kaci (10:36:10 PM): well it seems like, when there could be conflicting desires, you would end up choosing the most basic desire as the more important one because you would argue that any desire more complex was just you thinking too much

tombuazit (10:37:13 PM): conflicting desires can be caused by many things

tombuazit (10:37:51 PM): but before we get to what your desires are, we need to understand what keeps you from those desires, and your freedom

kaci (10:39:30 PM): but this is where I'm conflicted, because nothing keeps me from my freedom, i am always free, even if I'm choosing not to fullfill my most basic desires

tombuazit (10:39:38 PM): these come form two sources, your conscious self and your unconscious self. Sade called them underfeelings, the idea of unconscious was not around then, but his idea comes close, and I think that we can use that word

tombuazit (10:39:40 PM): wait

tombuazit (10:39:46 PM): you're jumping ahead

kaci (10:40:06 PM): okay

tombuazit (10:40:39 PM): you limit yourself because of these other feelings. Feelings like "fear"

tombuazit (10:40:50 PM): both conscious fear and unconscious

tombuazit (10:42:21 PM): you see you are running into the main problem of learning a new system. You refuse to distance yourself from your old system, long enough to understant. You're first instinct is to protect you're current system. You blind yourself to the benifets of others, and the negatives of your own

tombuazit (10:42:49 PM): you want to defend your choices

tombuazit (10:42:59 PM): your current worldview

tombuazit (10:43:45 PM): put all that aside, I know you want an excuse to please other people, over yourself at times. And you assume this theory will stop that.

kaci (10:44:06 PM): I'm still listening

tombuazit (10:44:22 PM): I know.

tombuazit (10:45:55 PM): tangent over I guess, but it is a tangent that is related

tombuazit (10:46:38 PM): you have fears, you have traditions, you have a world view, all these things are trying to force you into a specific path of action

tombuazit (10:46:55 PM): it makes you feel guilt, or remorse

tombuazit (10:47:07 PM): it is a consious

tombuazit (10:47:13 PM): not sure how to spell that

kaci (10:47:34 PM): conscience

kaci (10:47:47 PM): ?

tombuazit (10:47:49 PM): thanks

tombuazit (10:48:08 PM): the thing that speaks up when you have a bad idea, the angels and deamons on your shoulder

kaci (10:48:28 PM): the morality organ?

tombuazit (10:49:00 PM): the morality lie

tombuazit (10:49:44 PM): this morality and fear are two of the strongest blocks to your realizing your freedom

tombuazit (10:50:03 PM): when you open your eyes and see something you don't like, they close your eyes for you

tombuazit (10:50:23 PM): they fill your head with noise of why you shouldn't do those things you desire.

tombuazit (10:50:29 PM): they drown out your desire with their noise

kaci (10:51:17 PM): you mean realizing the full potential of your freedom?

tombuazit (10:51:21 PM): yes

kaci (10:51:40 PM): I'm with ya

tombuazit (10:52:34 PM): if your freedom is standing at your bedside yelling to get your attention, then your fears and conscience are the ones pluggig your ears and blocking your eyes

tombuazit (10:52:48 PM): now you might have personal issues that go along with these two.

tombuazit (10:52:58 PM): but just about everyone starts out with those two

tombuazit (10:53:08 PM): you are afraid of what people will think of you

tombuazit (10:53:29 PM): you are afraid of hurting others if the "inner beast" is realised

tombuazit (10:53:49 PM): you are affriad of being free, because then you have to decide everything

kaci (10:53:49 PM): lo

kaci (10:53:53 PM): l

tombuazit (10:53:56 PM): lol

kaci (10:54:22 PM): well it's unmapped territory in a way

tombuazit (10:54:42 PM): exactly

tombuazit (10:54:51 PM): you are afraid of what will happen

tombuazit (10:54:57 PM): of the unknown

tombuazit (10:55:02 PM): but thats not bad enough

tombuazit (10:55:06 PM): you have been chained with a morality by your culture

tombuazit (10:55:15 PM): a morality that many times makes no sense in the world

kaci (10:55:39 PM): right

tombuazit (10:55:47 PM): but its job is to keep your ass inline

tombuazit (10:55:53 PM): and it is ingrained

kaci (10:56:17 PM): powerful

tombuazit (10:56:20 PM): skipping over all the others you might have, cause people all have individual hangups

tombuazit (10:56:31 PM): and these two are the most powerful ussually

tombuazit (10:57:16 PM): both morality and fear can befound in your conscious mind. A part of your character, you think through your moral choice, you think about your fear

tombuazit (10:57:20 PM): normal stuff

tombuazit (10:57:33 PM): but more dangrous are the underfeelings.

tombuazit (10:57:44 PM): because you are unconscious of those

tombuazit (10:58:02 PM): they poke you on this path or that, and you are mostly blind to them

tombuazit (10:58:23 PM): very hard to rid yourself of

kaci (10:58:30 PM): uhhuh

tombuazit (10:59:00 PM): for Sade, even the most free woman alive has to constantly guard against these deamons.

tombuazit (10:59:27 PM): so these feelings cause you to blind yourself to your "true desires"

tombuazit (11:00:52 PM): what you really want in life; you are afraid to go after, you afraid of what people will think of you, afraid of who it might hurt, afraid of so many things

tombuazit (11:01:02 PM): any questions on this part?

kaci (11:01:30 PM): not yet...

tombuazit (11:02:35 PM): ok were pretty much done with the blocks, but I wanted to make a distinction. A distinciton that conects to your earlier line of questions. Fear of a consequense and taking that consequence into consideration are two different things

kaci (11:03:20 PM): ok

tombuazit (11:04:31 PM): Sade said that you might want to kill someone (A), if you do you will be imprisoned or put to death by the government (B). taking B into consideration before performing A is ok, but being afraid of B is unhealthy, because fear will stop you from even contemplating what you desire A.

tombuazit (11:04:58 PM): Even if you do not do A because of the consederation

tombuazit (11:05:05 PM): it is ok

tombuazit (11:05:11 PM): as long as it is not fear ruling you

tombuazit (11:05:43 PM): you have two conflicting desires A and "not wanting to be imprisoned or killed" (C)

tombuazit (11:06:01 PM): so your two desires can conflict, and you are free to choose between them

kaci (11:06:12 PM): ok

tombuazit (11:06:27 PM): as long as it is you making that choice and not your fear, morality, or whatever hang up you might have

tombuazit (11:06:54 PM): questions?

kaci (11:07:36 PM): but it seems like there is always going to be just the one real desire, the other one is is just what you don't want

kaci (11:07:56 PM): I guess not always, but often

tombuazit (11:07:57 PM): but what you don't want will also be a desire

tombuazit (11:08:19 PM): I desire to never have sex with a man or have a penis in my mouth

tombuazit (11:08:31 PM): it is a negative, but still a desie

tombuazit (11:09:15 PM): and you could also have a time where, "I want to have sex with dandan tonight" "I want to read this new book I got tonight"

tombuazit (11:09:27 PM): some desires are mutually exclusive

kaci (11:09:43 PM): right

tombuazit (11:09:50 PM): as long as your choice is based on you, and not on your hangups, thats fine

tombuazit (11:10:11 PM): and these examples are simple, where in life there will be several factors

kaci (11:12:02 PM): but just how many "true desires" do people have that aren't someway manipulated by fear, morality, etc...seems like you have to ask yourself why you want or don't want something to know if if is a "hang-up" or not

tombuazit (11:12:07 PM): You have a choice now that contains a negative desire (not negative as in bad, but negative as in -) and negative desires are common

tombuazit (11:12:14 PM): yup

tombuazit (11:12:27 PM): at first you do

tombuazit (11:12:41 PM): but as you get better at it, you start to make your own valid choices

tombuazit (11:12:44 PM): but at first it is had

tombuazit (11:12:46 PM): hard

tombuazit (11:13:03 PM): because fear and morality attempt to sneak in all the time

tombuazit (11:13:35 PM): but those are not valid reasons to make your choice. You as an individual agent, make that choice, based on what you desire.

tombuazit (11:14:04 PM): Sade said the best thing to do, is to make a list of everything your morality and fear tells you not to do and do them.

tombuazit (11:14:22 PM): to begin the process of breaking yourself of their clutches

tombuazit (11:14:44 PM): and gain experinces

tombuazit (11:14:59 PM): I am not sure if I am as radical with him on that, but he believed it

kaci (11:15:58 PM): you said that you make that choice based on what you desire...

kaci (11:16:14 PM): but also what your desire is based on, right?

tombuazit (11:16:24 PM): nope,

tombuazit (11:16:36 PM): this is why I use the word agent earlier

tombuazit (11:16:56 PM): the true desires will be based soley on the agent

tombuazit (11:17:06 PM): well I guess ya, if you read my line

kaci (11:17:41 PM): ?

tombuazit (11:18:07 PM): you asked but also what your desire is based on, right?

tombuazit (11:18:12 PM): and I should have said

tombuazit (11:18:30 PM): Yes, as long as you understand that the true desires are based soley on the agent in question

tombuazit (11:18:33 PM): the free agent

tombuazit (11:19:12 PM): it is their inherent desire that should drive them

tombuazit (11:20:59 PM): ?

kaci (11:21:26 PM): I don't understand that, desires based on my fears are my own desires I think, so how do I know the difference between what is the "true" desire and what is my conscious or unconscious telling me what my desire is?

tombuazit (11:21:45 PM): hmm

tombuazit (11:21:49 PM): hard work

kaci (11:22:07 PM): you are considering my fear and morality as separate agents from myself?

tombuazit (11:22:51 PM): you must first come to understand your fears and morality, and the desires based on them will fall away.

tombuazit (11:23:00 PM): yes and no

tombuazit (11:23:14 PM): they are parts of you that are instilled by outside forces

tombuazit (11:23:27 PM): that have been internlized

tombuazit (11:23:46 PM): that is why they need to be understood and disarmed.

tombuazit (11:24:24 PM): so that the desires that they create can be forgotten, and teh desires that they block can be awoken

tombuazit (11:25:36 PM): did I answer your question?

kaci (11:25:42 PM): yes

tombuazit (11:26:24 PM): ok, that pretty much it for tonight, unless you want to come over snuggle, and discuss it more

tombuazit (11:26:29 PM):

kaci (11:28:40 PM): no it hasn't all finished sinking in yet, so I can't make any decisions

tombuazit (11:28:45 PM): lol

tombuazit (11:29:04 PM): I am not trying to get you to make a descion like that

kaci (11:29:06 PM): I'm paralyzed

tombuazit (11:29:12 PM): really?

kaci (11:29:23 PM): no, not really

kaci (11:30:15 PM): but I am still working through some thoughts on all this

tombuazit (11:30:29 PM): my specialty in philosphy was the self: free will, ethics, how you learn, the basis of you I guess

tombuazit (11:31:07 PM): Mainly I dealt with stuff like this, my theory is a combination of Sade, Wittgenstein, and ZhuangZi.

tombuazit (11:31:31 PM): so some of what i said tonight might have my own theory tossed in the mix, but I think most of it was pure Sade

kaci (11:32:06 PM): hmmm

kaci (11:32:26 PM): well I was going to say, so much for talking about you, but maybe that's not totally accurate then

kaci (11:32:32 PM):

tombuazit (11:32:43 PM): most of my work was a conglomeration and explaination of them

tombuazit (11:33:17 PM): I did three essays in Anthro America, and several articles for a feminsit philosophical journal

tombuazit (11:33:28 PM): THe study of Sade is desired, but noone wants to read him

tombuazit (11:33:40 PM): so it is a quick way to get your stuff out there.

tombuazit (11:33:42 PM): and it is genius

tombuazit (11:34:12 PM): "The Self as Controlled Chaos"

tombuazit (11:34:19 PM): you might find some of it online.

tombuazit (11:34:21 PM): but I doubt it

tombuazit (11:35:19 PM): mostly I was attached by christians, hearlded by only a few crazy's and had a white supremisest use cut and past to put it on his site, in an infuriating misconsturment

kaci (11:35:38 PM): lol

tombuazit (11:35:56 PM): but I attacked post modernism and anyletical thought. So I kind of screwed myself there

tombuazit (11:36:05 PM): but it is what I want to do someday

tombuazit (11:36:16 PM): teach and publish my complete theory

kaci (11:36:40 PM): so if not online, where can I find it?

tombuazit (11:36:47 PM): PM and AT are the two biggest philosophical groups now. Everyone is one or the other

tombuazit (11:36:48 PM): don't know

tombuazit (11:36:52 PM): I would try online

tombuazit (11:37:40 PM): I can see if the jounrals still have copies I could buy, or perhaps, an online site

tombuazit (11:37:45 PM): never really checked

tombuazit (11:37:57 PM): I am was kind of embarased by the few articals

kaci (11:38:15 PM): why?

tombuazit (11:38:18 PM): I use a lot of examples of sex, and stuff

tombuazit (11:38:57 PM): I had just finished with the complete works of Sade and all his stories are super super hardcore S&M pain tourture death stuff,

tombuazit (11:38:59 PM): eating shit

tombuazit (11:39:03 PM): that kind of stuff

tombuazit (11:39:23 PM): so it was just a natural part of the process to discuss his sexualization with everything

tombuazit (11:39:35 PM): sexualization of everyting I mean

kaci (11:40:07 PM): so you would do it differently now?

tombuazit (11:40:28 PM): it was his attack on the moral fabric of his society. They demened sex in public and fucked like bunnies in private, he wanted to open the doors

tombuazit (11:40:29 PM): ya

tombuazit (11:40:36 PM): and no

tombuazit (11:41:23 PM): I would want the three main articles in Anthro America to be the same mostly. The feminst articles, I wish I would have made them more accessable to others

tombuazit (11:41:54 PM): but toning down sade looses 1/2 the point

tombuazit (11:42:34 PM): I mean part of the process of libireation is becoming desensitized to those things he talks about

tombuazit (11:43:05 PM): realizing that everyone has crazy insane desires, and they should not be bottled up and made violent

tombuazit (11:43:17 PM): I guess not to fear yourself,

tombuazit (11:43:24 PM): it is like a battering ram

tombuazit (11:43:44 PM): Also I would change several of my ideas, because of a deeper understanding I have now

tombuazit (11:44:13 PM): After so many people attacked the theories and others accepted them, I have really rethought some stuff, and worked it out better in my mind

kaci (11:44:40 PM): have you read Robert Pirsig's Lila?

tombuazit (11:44:47 PM): my understanding of ZhuangZi and Witt, are imensly better

tombuazit (11:44:49 PM): nope

tombuazit (11:44:56 PM): don't think os

tombuazit (11:45:07 PM): is it philosophy?

kaci (11:45:44 PM): it's fiction, but all about his ideas of morality

tombuazit (11:45:53 PM): oh

tombuazit (11:46:05 PM): whats the books name?

kaci (11:46:20 PM): same guy that wrote Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance

kaci (11:46:24 PM): Lila

tombuazit (11:46:28 PM): oh ya

tombuazit (11:46:44 PM): good?

kaci (11:47:01 PM): yeah

kaci (11:47:13 PM): I wouldn't mind reading it again actually

tombuazit (11:47:57 PM): cool

tombuazit (11:48:29 PM): wish I could tell you some sade to read

tombuazit (11:48:31 PM): but.....

kaci (11:48:55 PM): well next time we do this I want to hear about your ideas on mistakes

tombuazit (11:49:01 PM): its kind of brutal stuff, and I hardly go over anything but the highlgithed pats next time

tombuazit (11:49:07 PM): mistakes?

kaci (11:49:54 PM): yeah

kaci (11:50:00 PM): lol

kaci (11:50:09 PM): another time

tombuazit (11:50:25 PM): simple baby, let them go

tombuazit (11:50:44 PM): let me tell you a little story about me

kaci (11:50:55 PM): oh goody

tombuazit (11:50:59 PM): and it will sum up my idea of both responsibilty, worry and mistakes

tombuazit (11:51:22 PM): In my culture, responsibility is huge

tombuazit (11:52:14 PM): duty is beat into from a young age, well not beat we rarely strike our chidern, humor works so much better. BUt anyway. We are taught and taught, and it weighs on us like you would not believe, a blanket that cannot be reomoved

tombuazit (11:52:38 PM): will one day my friends and i decided to take Acid and go for a walk.

tombuazit (11:52:51 PM): We went out the back door of my house and walked 4 hours

tombuazit (11:54:22 PM): close to the top of a Butte near our town I got lost and ended up at the top alone. I sat and waited for them. Looking down onto world bellow. All the little cars, and little lights moving all over

tombuazit (11:54:30 PM): it was getting dark

tombuazit (11:55:15 PM): and I realized that if I died up there on that mountain. NOthin in that town would change. Sure there would be some sobs, and crying, but the town would get over it and get on getting on

tombuazit (11:56:46 PM): I felt my self pulled out of my body and raised up into the sky. Looking down on the town it got smaller, and I could see the whole Rez. I realized that if my REz suddenlly died out the US wouldn't care. The whole Rez could end, and there would be some look'n into it, but overall it would be like nothing had ever been.

tombuazit (11:57:42 PM): and I slipped higher, looking down onto the planet I thought that if Our world was destroyed the solar system would keep on keep'n on. I sure some orbital shifts, but it would keep going

tombuazit (11:58:28 PM): and even if our solarssytem went down, the galaxy would keep on, and on and on back I fell, until I hit my head, on the ground as I fell out of a tree I had been climbing

tombuazit (11:58:31 PM): and it hit me

tombuazit (11:59:10 PM): that if my entire world could just be gone with no big deal. Why they hell should I worry too much about fucking up my life

tombuazit (11:59:34 PM): I should I worry, or regret, life would keep on keep'n on no matter what

tombuazit (11:59:57 PM): so since then I just don't try not to worry or regret

tombuazit (12:00:55 AM): I figure it all happens as it did and will. I do my best, I get my rocks off, I try to make the world a better place, and if I fuck it up, well, I fucked it up. Do better next time, no next time, then I don't need to worry

tombuazit (12:00:58 AM): hows that?

tombuazit (12:01:12 AM): I was on a lot lot lot of acid

tombuazit (12:01:29 AM): and weed and liquor and some other herbs

kaci (12:01:35 AM): but do you think there are mistakes then?

tombuazit (12:01:44 AM): yes and no

tombuazit (12:02:11 AM): I think we do things on accident, and we should try to aviod mistakes, but the past is past

tombuazit (12:02:13 AM): why worry

tombuazit (12:02:16 AM): just live

tombuazit (12:02:42 AM): at the casino my attitude saved us time and again

tombuazit (12:03:04 AM): people who constantly try to aviod mistakes seem to get caught in um constantly

tombuazit (12:03:18 AM): people who worry seem to have things happen they need to worry about

tombuazit (12:03:38 AM): I don't worry or dwell

tombuazit (12:03:50 AM): best way to run a busniess

tombuazit (12:03:51 AM): and a life

kaci (12:04:41 AM): yes

kaci (12:05:06 AM): an accident is different than a mistake though

tombuazit (12:05:40 AM): Replace the words hon

tombuazit (12:06:09 AM): it should read we do things by mistake

tombuazit (12:06:43 AM): you should be in philosophy with all your argument over words

tombuazit (12:06:47 AM): semantics

kaci (12:07:40 AM): but mistakes are a moral issue I think, no?

kaci (12:07:55 AM): or can be

kaci (12:08:12 AM): I am a stickler for semantics

tombuazit (12:08:15 AM): ok, what did I tell you about morals?

tombuazit (12:08:29 AM): morals and morality?

kaci (12:08:46 AM): morality

tombuazit (12:09:12 AM): when we were talking before?

tombuazit (12:09:28 AM): morals and morality are bullshit lies of your culture

tombuazit (12:09:34 AM): forced on you to keep you inline

tombuazit (12:09:48 AM): if you want to say it is an ethical issue ok

kaci (12:11:25 AM): um...

kaci (12:11:54 AM): you are rigaht

kaci (12:12:13 AM): it is an ethical issue

tombuazit (12:12:17 AM): I guess I need to know what you mean by mistake

tombuazit (12:12:28 AM): I mean I can get into the wrong car by mistake

tombuazit (12:12:50 AM): or belive that my coming to hawai' i was a mistake

kaci (12:13:30 AM): that's why it can be an ethical issue, but not always

tombuazit (12:13:46 AM): I can never see when it would be an ethical issue?

tombuazit (12:13:52 AM): please explain how it can be

kaci (12:14:10 AM): getting into the wrong car by mistake obviously isn't an ethical issue

tombuazit (12:15:15 AM): ok

tombuazit (12:15:25 AM): give an example of when it would be

kaci (12:16:19 AM): maybe it's not

kaci (12:17:36 AM): I don't really know, that is why I am asking you about it

kaci (12:19:33 AM): semantics

tombuazit (12:19:54 AM): I think of mistakes as accident's I caused

tombuazit (12:20:02 AM): cause accidents don't really have a cause

tombuazit (12:20:07 AM): and mistakes have me

tombuazit (12:20:55 AM): does that make sense?

kaci (12:21:32 AM): yeah

kaci (12:22:02 AM): but I don't think that by definition, there is any chance involved in mistakes like there is in accidents

kaci (12:22:13 AM): when you make a mistake you do something wrong

kaci (12:22:23 AM): an accident isn't wrong, it's unfortunate

tombuazit (12:22:33 AM): agreed

kaci (12:22:49 AM): but you could make a mistake due to a misunderstanding

tombuazit (12:23:04 AM): true

tombuazit (12:23:23 AM): but then a misunderstanding can be seen as either a mistake or an accident

kaci (12:23:55 AM): which still means you are wrong, but.... not really to blame?

kaci (12:24:36 AM): no, I don't think you cause an accident by misunderstanding something

tombuazit (12:24:56 AM): no, a misunderstanding can be and accident

kaci (12:25:01 AM): maybe

tombuazit (12:25:21 AM): as you accidently misunderstood, because of chance

tombuazit (12:25:32 AM): or you misunderstood because you were mistaken about what was said

kaci (12:25:35 AM): yeah I guess so

tombuazit (12:25:43 AM): but thats beside the point

tombuazit (12:25:53 AM): I think mistakes are unfortunate

tombuazit (12:26:00 AM): ussually

tombuazit (12:26:27 AM): good happy mistakes are ussually not in need of discussion

kaci (12:26:31 AM): but doesn't that mean that the misunderstaning was the accident, not that it caused the accident?

tombuazit (12:26:40 AM): yes

tombuazit (12:26:44 AM): that is what it means

tombuazit (12:26:52 AM): that is what I was saying

tombuazit (12:26:57 AM):

kaci (12:28:00 AM): lol

tombuazit (12:28:06 AM): but what about mistakes as ethical issues

kaci (12:28:20 AM): I think I'm tired

tombuazit (12:28:21 AM): I think they are just thigns we did that turned out bad

tombuazit (12:28:45 AM): but i do think that we can forsee a mistake, and then it is kind of eithical

tombuazit (12:29:10 AM): cause we then have to choose wheter or not to make the mistake, even though we know its a mistake

kaci (12:29:39 AM): yeah

kaci (12:29:56 AM): hold on...

tombuazit (12:30:00 AM): I don't know if that is as ethical as it is dumb

kaci (12:31:11 AM): mistake: an error, to be in error in action, opinion or judgement

tombuazit (12:31:45 AM): but ironicly you can choose to make that mistake

tombuazit (12:31:59 AM): I told you about my ex wife's roommate right?

kaci (12:32:05 AM): to be in error is to be wrong which means it must be decided what is wrong

tombuazit (12:32:25 AM): so you can choose to do the wrong thing?

kaci (12:33:33 AM): yeah

tombuazit (12:33:51 AM): cause I choose to do the wrong thing all the time

kaci (12:34:35 AM): then according to you, you are always making mistakes

tombuazit (12:34:37 AM): Many times I know a girl won't be worth the hassal of sex or friendship, but I will still let things go

tombuazit (12:35:02 AM): thats what I mean. I make mistakes I forsee as mistakes

kaci (12:35:18 AM): right

tombuazit (12:35:43 AM): I don't think it's really ethical choice thought

tombuazit (12:35:53 AM): though

tombuazit (12:35:56 AM): not thought

kaci (12:36:00 AM): but what makes it a mistake, that you decided it was "wrong" or because it has a bad consequence?

tombuazit (12:37:17 AM): bad consequence

tombuazit (12:38:07 AM): a consequence that is not so bad that the joy of the mistake is not enough to cover it.

kaci (12:38:53 AM): the dictionary definition doesn't speak to whether a mistake means it is something that turns out badly, just that it's something that is wrong...

tombuazit (12:39:13 AM): well an error,

tombuazit (12:39:21 AM): like 2+2=5

tombuazit (12:39:32 AM): what about that equation is the error?

kaci (12:39:54 AM): who knows

tombuazit (12:40:04 AM): you get errors becuase you get a bad result

tombuazit (12:40:14 AM): your process of getting 5 is an error

tombuazit (12:40:31 AM): 2+2= is the situation

kaci (12:40:45 AM): not if 5 is the desired result

kaci (12:41:01 AM): and the situation should be 2+3

tombuazit (12:41:10 AM): but you don't have enought add up to 5 which makes it not an error, but a shortage

kaci (12:42:24 AM): ?

tombuazit (12:42:50 AM): what

tombuazit (12:43:20 AM): in that equation the process is wrong cause of the result

kaci (12:43:35 AM): there's too many ways to look at that example, I'm easily confused

tombuazit (12:43:35 AM): the results are always what makes it a mistake or an error

kaci (12:44:00 AM): there is still an error either way

kaci (12:44:06 AM): there is still a mistake

tombuazit (12:44:31 AM): because of an unexpeted result, that was not foreseeable and was not suppose to occur

tombuazit (12:44:46 AM): like you having sex with me

tombuazit (12:45:00 AM): i would say the first time on your part was a mistake

tombuazit (12:45:22 AM): mistakes don't ahve to be bad

tombuazit (12:46:22 AM): so I disagree with you dictionary

kaci (12:47:59 AM): so...to make a mistake is to be in error (by definition) and to be in error is to be wrong and to be wrong is to be bad....

tombuazit (12:48:20 AM): mistake n 1. incorrect act or decision 2. error 3. misunderstanding vt 1. misunderstand something 2. identify somebody or something incorrectly 3. choose something incorrectly mistaken adj 1. wrong in your opinion 2. based on incorrect information mister n

tombuazit (12:48:25 AM): that is mine

tombuazit (12:49:32 AM): so do you mean the noun or vt.?

tombuazit (12:49:52 AM): or the adj mistaken

tombuazit (12:50:43 AM): still here

kaci (12:52:27 AM): hello?

tombuazit (12:52:35 AM): hello

tombuazit (12:52:42 AM): did you see my post the definitions

kaci (12:52:48 AM): yes

tombuazit (12:52:51 AM): ok

tombuazit (12:52:57 AM): what happened

kaci (12:52:57 AM): I said does it matter which one?

tombuazit (12:53:11 AM): oh, I guess

kaci (12:53:18 AM): computer sucks is all

tombuazit (12:53:28 AM): if you look, they each have their own meaing

tombuazit (12:53:32 AM): subtilydifferent

kaci (12:53:51 AM): what about that definition says that a mistake can be good? if it can even be bad?

tombuazit (12:54:32 AM): 2. identify somebody or something incorrectly 3. choose something incorrectly

kaci (12:55:03 AM): either way you are incorrect

tombuazit (12:55:06 AM): you could choose teh incorrect thing, and have it be better then the one you were suppose to

tombuazit (12:55:31 AM): it would be incorrect, but still "good"

tombuazit (12:56:26 AM): or 2. you are on a blind date, and pick the wrong person, but fall madly in love

kaci (12:56:26 AM): so making a mistake doesn't mean it is bad or good, right?

tombuazit (12:56:31 AM): right

tombuazit (12:56:33 AM): just wrong

tombuazit (12:56:37 AM): or incorrect

kaci (12:56:42 AM): right

tombuazit (12:57:06 AM): did you have a mistake in mind when you asked about mistakes?

kaci (12:57:31 AM): no, just a general inquiry

tombuazit (12:57:36 AM): oh

tombuazit (12:57:39 AM): ok

kaci (12:58:07 AM): that scared me!

kaci (12:58:10 AM): lol

kaci (12:58:27 AM): you just helped me figure out what I wanted to know though

tombuazit (12:59:13 AM): did yo do that

kaci (12:59:26 AM): yeah

kaci (12:59:50 AM): I'm sorry, we were supposed to save that conversation for another time

kaci (12:59:59 AM): now it is even later

tombuazit (1:00:47 AM): thats fine

kaci (1:00:51 AM): where did you get him?

tombuazit (1:00:59 AM): my secret stash

tombuazit (1:01:03 AM): come over and find out

tombuazit (1:01:16 AM): game taunts

tombuazit (1:01:20 AM): under games

kaci (1:01:28 AM): ah

kaci (1:02:02 AM): anywho....

tombuazit (1:02:20 AM): so yiou ready to talk sexy to me?

tombuazit (1:02:26 AM):

kaci (1:02:33 AM): uuhhh

kaci (1:02:35 AM): no

kaci (1:02:56 AM): I'm ready to sleep though

tombuazit (1:03:07 AM): sounds like fun

tombuazit (1:03:11 AM): I will sleep as well