Christ Is All and In All
An Email Discussion: Is Christ in Everyone?

Ken,
I have been blessed by the touch of Heaven on your life.
Perhaps, you might enjoy a recent article about how as we mature each event
from the cross, to the coming, to the consummation further reveals the Divine
perspective.

The Eternal Vantage Point:
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/Resurrection.html
URfriend, Dean Johnson

Dean;

I do enjoy the thought, but know that the reality is much different. This belief has been presented to me before and I know all about it. Part of the reason my words come across so strongly to effect correction in some is due to thinking we've arrived already. Whether you like it or not Dean, it is a Preterist view. There are many who will not agree with your thought of seeing it through God's eyes.

Now I know that God does see us completed in Christ, but because He is God, I know He also tells us things through the Apostles writings and the writings and ministry of others to "cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit" [2 Corinthians 7:1] and other such things which revealed our alienation from God. In other words, God works still to RECONCILE. That the time of the restitution of all creation has not yet arrived but is still in the time frame known as "the future". There 'will be' a time when God will pronounce the times of the restitution of all things, we are not at that time.

That is not the order of God reconciling and restoring creation. God has chosen to restore creation through the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God, which manifestation has not yet taken place.

There are many other examples I could give, like no need for the 5-fold ministry or armor of righteousness or discernment of the Sword of the Lord if what you wrote is correct. These things are all to be discarded. Next thing we'd have to do is discard the whole bible if what you wrote is true! Don't allow the truth of ultimate reconciliation to become a swing that leads to TOO MUCH good doctrine. The pendulum needs to be kept in balance according to present truth. God WILL BE All in All when the times for that come, but that time is not yet. First He comes for those who are the fallen tabernacle of David.

I trust you understand.

Kenneth B Visscher

Ken,

Good to hear from you. I appreciate your insights and contribution to the body of Christ.

You present a balanced approach.

I presented this tension as God’s view being above our own views.

Sometimes, we have to see by faith before we can experience the reality.

This role of revelation seems to be suggested by Paul.

This is a message that often needs to be seen and believed if we are to walk in it.  I know you understand this and I appreciate your perspective.

As you say, “I know that God does see us completed in Christ, but because He is God.”  And so I agree, and often, there is a pastoral heart that cares for those who are bogged down in the darkness, and sometimes, there is even a prophetic call that pulls us out.

When Christ came and died it was revealed that the old sacrifices were not necessary. They had served their purpose. However we did not throw out the Old Testament. Today, we read the old with a deeper insight, understanding how it taught us and led us to Christ.

Indeed, if we see the consummation as complete, we are no longer bound by the traditional understanding of the scriptures. However, if and when we see new truth, I trust that this does not mean that we have to scratch old things out of the Bible. We can bring out of our treasure things new and old.

Hopefully, as you say, we won’t “have to scratch that part out of my bible”, as we begin to see more and more from a divine perspective. We will, however, be freed from the requirements to try to recreate the past, and liberated to move forward into whatever God might bring us into.  Also, we will be less likely to impose scripture on our brethren.

I understand your concern. This in unchartered territory and we don’t know where it will take us. I hesitated to post this article for this very reason.

But I sense that it might also be helpful. I am considering making some adjustments to the article to recognize your concerns.

Personally, I see all things new.
If any man is in Christ there is a new creation and all things are made new.

The Old Jerusalem was destroyed, and there is a New Jerusalem that is the mother of us all. We are born from above. Galatians 4:26

Nor does the fulfillment invalidate or destroy the old. But we no longer see the need to impose it on one another, as each of us, every man in his own order, begins to walk in this newness of life.  Nor do we need to discount the journey of another who is on a path of discovery, which is not yet walking in the same insight. Just as we love the Jewish faith, despite its inability to satisfy us, we recognize its place in the lives of others. So also, as new light comes, the current Christianity will seem old and obsolete. 

Truly we are complete in Christ. And so the “hope of the Overcomer is (not) dashed, but answered and can be fulfilled. Grace to me is also the realization that there is nothing that I need to do, for it is already done in Christ. I just come line upon line, revelation upon revelation, into the realization of it. And so we are empowered to live.  Hebrews 11:1

But we are on the same team,

URfriend, Dean Johnson

Dean; Am Cc'ng this email to Ross McKay,

Hello Dean,

We were in prayer together and we know that this is new age, this Jesus in
everybody doctrine, just as it is in the DNA doctrine. You've lifted the
scripture out of context and error is the result. Read what Ross McKay wrote
below and then take heed brother.

Blessings.
Kenneth B Visscher

Now the response from Ross McKay. 

Further as to how I see this question.

In order for one to be "a son", one must of course first have a father. It
may be surprising to some that the Bible reveals that all men are not "sons
of God", and consequently God cannot be their Father, at least not yet.  In
fact, the New Testament (KJV) uses the phrase "son of God" only once and
speaks of the untainted "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.  All other
references to "the Son of God" are capitalized and refer to Jesus.  Of
course there are many scriptures that use the singular word "son" which
relate to "the sons of men" (Mark 3:28; Ephesians 3:5) of which there are only two
references in the New Testament and twenty one in the Old Testament...

...Paul the Apostle had the true revelation of "God the Father."  He refers
to God as the Father thirteen times in the New Testament, all within the
context only of Christ or His church."  When Paul said, "There is one God
and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in you all
(Ephesians 4:6), he was in no way saying God was the Father of all men and God was
in all men.  The "you all" here in its proper context with both the
proceeding and following scriptures, is limited in reference to "every one
of us.... given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
(vs.7).

Again, "The Father of all" who "is in you all" clearly refers only to those
of the Christian church to whom Paul was speaking at the time...those ones
whom were being exhorted to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are
called." Eph.4:1.  We see it referring only to those who have being called
into "one body and one spirit" (vs.4), which is the spiritual body of Christ.
Truly, He is not only the Creator but also the only life implanting Father
of all these ones through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. [end quote].

Ken, Again, it is clearly stated that Paul is writing here to the church at
Ephesus & is speaking of them, not anyone else!  "Paul, an apostle of Jesus
Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and TO THE
FAITHFUL IN CHRIST JESUS: Grace be to you, and peace, from GOD OUR
FATHER....Eph.1:1,2.

Gbug

I think I understand your concern.

There is a good reason why the scriptures separate and divide the sheep from the goats. Indeed, there are those who believe in Christ, and those who do not. And you have a pastoral concern that is valid. From a practical standpoint it can be useful to recognize this distinction. We see this throughout the scriptures.

Regarding your email about the interpretation of the Ephesian scriptures. It is partially correct. However, many of the scriptures in Ephesians are deliberately worded in such a way that more than one interpretation is possible. This is done on purpose throughout Ephesians so that the scope and the extent of the message will be read differently depending on the insight and perspective of the reader. In this way, not only the believers in Ephesus are chosen, but also if we are able to perceive it, all creation is called in “The Son” into the image of God in the Universal Christ. It is a little like a parable that hides the full extent of the message until we are able to see it.

For example in chapter 1:23  “Fullness” can refer to Christ or the church, and the filler can be God or Christ, so in this way "the fullness of him who fills all in all" seems to be deliberately worded in such a way that several meanings are appropriate. As well, in Ephesians the lines between church, Christ and God are deliberately fuzzy. Therefore, the church is both that which is filled and completed by Christ, and that which fills and completes Christ. As well, the word “all” is used repeatedly, and can refer to the church, or to all creation (1:10,11,15,21,22). Saints or “holy ones” can refer to believers and even to angelic beings. (3:8-10, Daniel 4:17) The typical rule of exegesis that says there is one right interpretation does not apply. The author intended several meaning to been seen, as we were able

I will attempt to express why I see the need to share the things I have written about the eternal perspective. I believe they are necessary if we are to move ahead.

When Christ came, the Old Testament, though still valid at the time, was passing away. And though it was still valid, those who lived in that old paradigm of separation, and alienation, and temple sacrifices, became stuck in the past, often trying to control or impose upon those who could see to a new day dawning. 

There is a story about the Pharisees who knew the scriptures, but they could not see past the scriptural precepts of their day to the Eternal God who gave them. Mired in their own scriptural interpretation of their own experience, they could not see God’s eternal perspective.

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him.
And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? Mark 10:3
And they said,

Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
And Jesus answered and said unto them,

For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. Mark 10:5
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Mark 10:6
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”  Mark 10:8, 9

The scriptures were written for the hardness of our hearts.

Our need to separate and divide is not benefitial.

From the beginning, it was not so. Matthew 19:8

In this passage and through marriage, God is trying to teach us that we are all one. Paul built on this when he tried to express the great mystery. Ephesians 5:32 The church, which is the body of Christ, includes all things. There is only one body. Ephesians 4:4 Christ is all there is. We sometimes fail to see this one body, because we are still focusing on the old realm of Adam, which was alienated from the life of God through ignorance, because of blindness. (Ephesians 4:18, 21, 22)

I tend to think this was the challenge that the Apostles faced in all their writings: Having a revelation to give, and yet being unable to deliver it because of the hardness of people’s hearts.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.  

1Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

They had to speak using the manner and worldview of mere men because of the infirmity of the audience. Romans 6:19. When they wrote to the Jews, who embraced the law and its consequences, they spake as a Jew. When they wrote to a Gentile, they became as Gentiles.

Some religious folk become so accustomed to this paradigm of separation and alienation, which shows us our need for Christ, that they think it is normal and proper to perpetuate that paradigm of alienation. And they quote the scriptures, and the apostles who wrote to them because of the hardness of their hearts, to back their position.

They may speak of and even embrace divorce, or that some should be put out of the Church, or other divisions. But these are temporary measures to bring us to Christ. It was not so from the beginning.

In the beginning, God was the Father of all. And in the end, God shall be the Father of all. And there shall be no separation or division. We were all one. And we shall be all one. Many things are written even in the scriptures that seem contrary to this. These things are written for our learning that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. When these things pass away then the perfect is come.

Today, most still see a division between believer and unbeliever. But Christ justifies the ungodly. What God joined together before the foundation of the earth, let not man put asunder. In Christ, we are all one. Jews and Greeks, male and female, bond and free, there is no difference. “What God hath cleansed”, we do not have to call unclean Acts 10:15. Little by little we begin to see through the religious paradigms that taught us in the past. This is why I wrote about seeing our world from the standpoint of the consummation. 

I remember George Hawtin once writing that as the end of the age approaches those paradigms that are held sacred will begin to pass away. If I remember correctly, he wrote these things about church meetings. The scriptural teachings and practices of this age will pass, and those that live and teach according to the powers of the age to come, will be misunderstood.  This is true. But I also understand that today many still feel the need for these things. Many things are written in the scriptures, and are still allowed if only for the weakness of our flesh, and the hardness of our heart. Granted, we still use the human language of separation, alienation, and division. We still have believers and unbelievers, sheep and goats, and not all are called the children of God. But it was not so from the beginning, neither will it be in the end.

We also must take heed lest our knowledge become a stumbling block. And conversely, we must also take heed lest we become as the Pharisees and the Sadducees quoting the scriptures to divide, alienate and separate. This is not how the scriptures were intended. Division and separation is a paradigm of a bygone and passing age. Christ is all and in all. This is the present day foretaste of the end when God will become all in all. In our day-to-day living we must take care not to minimize such grandeur.

There is one God and Father of all. It was so from the beginning and so shall it be in the end. Let’s not judge those who have faith to see beyond this evil day, and who want to live accordingly. Rather let us have wisdom to acknowledge divine insight, but then to direct it appropriately, so that it does not lead to error.

Christ is all there is, Colossians 3:11

In the light that lightens every man that cometh into the world, John 1:9

URfriend, Dean Johnson

PS It is in embracing the eternal realities now, that we appropriate them in the present. 

We are all one.

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/one.html

At this point, I believe Ken might have become busy writing his blog, and relating this and similar discussions with others in the body of Christ. The next email was just a forwarded message originally intended for other recipients, and a message directing me to his blog, but these too are relevant, and related to this discussion.

***** and *****,
I can't believe you'd fall for this stuff. Not only is it reprehensible
doctrine, it is downright deception. I pray you would take this before the
Lord so you can be cleansed of the iniquity of following false doctrines
such as the dna one….

This is NOT being taught as a metaphor by these ministries. It is being
taught as bible truth and it is in fact NOT bible truth but it is "new age"
spirit truth, which is false. A metaphor means "type" or "shadow" or a
story that implies something by using an example. This dna teaching does not
do this.

The Lord revealed to us here that Gideon's army of 300 is being formed and
that the first two groups who "were" part of this army are being whittled
off, not thousands, not a few thousand or hundred, but 300, that is the
final number.

Those Kingdom Ministries that are going off in these tangents and false new
age doctrines such as Christ in everybody NOW and this dna and several
others I can mention are whittled off of Gideon's 300.
Let that be a warning to you in the Love of God. Don't mess with this stuff
that is unscriptural and UN true.
Yes, Christ does change us in our inner man, but there is nothing about this
that has originated from the Lord or His word and to say it does sets you in
the camp of those who won't go forth into the final stage of glorification
and overcoming to set creation free.
If you think I am deceiving you then think again. Take my words to the Lord.
The truth will set you free.

Kenneth B Visscher

Dean

This one’s important.

The next writing has been posted at The Visscher Family Homepage www.kbv.ca
It is titled ~ The New Jerusalem ~ The Tabernacle Of God - Part Two
This writing is one of the most fearsome writings ever written on our site
and it is to be weighed carefully in prayer. May the Lord grant grace for
this rebuke to work effectively in your life as you seek Him for His perfect
will to be done…

The Blog itself is at:
http://greater-emmanuel.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-jerusalem-tabernacle-of-god-part_10.html

May the Lord direct us into His perfect will.

If you would like to be included in emailed prophecy, discussions on
righteous living or answers to spiritual questions please send us your email
address. Thank you.

If you know of anyone else who would be edified by these studies please
forward them this email and if they wish they can contact us. Thank you.

God Bless.
In Christ.
Kenneth B Visscher


Visit us at The Visscher Family Homepage
http://www.kbv.ca
ken@kbv.ca

Thanks Ken,

I appreciated this post.
I think I mentioned that I had intended to make some adjustments to my blog
article to bring the balance we spoke of. Perhaps, I might edit our email
discussion to remove the "more personal" references, and add it onto the
blog, and then post a link to this rather passionate article.
http://kbv.ca/blog_New_Jerusalem/The_New_Jerusalem_The_Tabernacle_Of_God_02.htm
Perhaps, and hopefully, that will help encourage the seeking and discovery
that we desire.
Any comments or concerns?

URfriend, Dean Johnson

All I can say Dean is that you are the most precious brother I have ever
met, really. It is your SPIRIT I love brother. I LOVE YOU. And always will.
I am so glad that my responses have not turned you away from me. These
things are hard I know, but we will work it out.
Anyways, I will need again the link to the blog so I can see the changes. We
will find the will of God for sure.
Ken

PS. While corresponding with Ken, others got involved in the discussion. 

A quote was pointed out from my site that I think may relate to this discussion. 

“We believe that there is that of God in every man. Jesus is the light that lightens every person. Jesus is the life that is breathed into every person. He is the word and the seed that is planted into the hearts of people everywhere. That seed will grow, and every person made alive will fully manifest the life and glory of God. We don't look on the outward man, but we see Jesus, the image of God, in everyone.”

Taken from “Who Are We?”  http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/qintro.html

What do you think?  Let the body Speak.

In Love, Share Your Thoughts for the Edification of the Body. 

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