Is Christ in Everyone?

Christ Is All and In All: An Email Discussion


The Eternal Vantage Point” article became a springboard for a theological and very practical discussion with a friend about the extent of Christ’s indwelling spirit, and our Father’s view of his creation. The discussion is presented here for the edification of the body. 





Ken,
I have been blessed by the touch of Heaven on your life.
Perhaps, you might enjoy a recent article about how as we mature each event
from the cross, to the coming, to the consummation further reveals the Divine
perspective.

The Eternal Vantage Point:
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/Resurrection.html
URfriend, Dean Johnson





Dean;

I do enjoy the thought, but know that the reality is much different. This belief has been presented to me before and I know all about it. Part of the reason my words come across so strongly to effect correction in some is due to thinking we've arrived already. Whether you like it or not Dean, it is a Preterist view. There are many who will not agree with your thought of seeing it through God's eyes.

Now I know that God does see us completed in Christ, but because He is God, I know He also tells us things through the Apostles writings and the writings and ministry of others to "cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit" [2 Corinthians 7:1] and other such things which revealed our alienation from God. In other words, God works still to RECONCILE. That the time of the restitution of all creation has not yet arrived but is still in the time frame known as "the future". There 'will be' a time when God will pronounce the times of the restitution of all things, we are not at that time.

In point of fact, we are very far from unity in the Spirit in this hour. There are so many doctrines floating about, so many divisions, discords, broken promises, truces dishonored and many still are in ministry who are going for the applause of men or money. In so very many the mystery of Iniquity does still work. For me to believe what you say from "God's eyesight", I would have to throw out the Mystery of Iniquity which Paul warned us would be so forceful and prominent in these last days, so much so that one would appear AS God and deceive many. There is God who is I AM THAT I AM and there is god who is I AM AS GOD. Two kinds. So if we see every man as All in All in perfection now we have not allowed this mystery of Iniquity to run full course and to complete in the earth it's intended purpose. For this mystery the Apostle said, will work UNTIL He be taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:7. The He being this son of perdition, the Adamic nature. It's still here in the earth Dean and it is still fully functioning as a force against God and not for God. And it is still growing, not shrinking. 

Not only so, but if you believe what you wrote to be true, then the hope of the Overcomer is dashed. For the Overcomer constitutes the fallen tabernacle of David, those being "built again". These are the ones whom God visits in the Gentile Nations to take out of them a people for His name. AFTER THIS, God comes to give salvation to the rest. Read this in Acts 15: 13-18. If I believe what you wrote here brother, then I have to scratch that part out of my bible.

That is not the order of God reconciling and restoring creation. God has chosen to restore creation through the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God, which manifestation has not yet taken place.

So Dean I will counter your claims of God's eyesight with God's true eyesight. And that is that God is working only in a few to bring them to perfection as 1st Fruits unto God, THEN the rest of humanity, EACH MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER, or if you will as the scriptures put it "But every man in his own order:" 1 Corinthians 15:23. God has decided in His sovereignty upon His Throne to do this as a progressive work through individual obedience, not a done deal. Jesus said, "It is finished". Well, the thing Jesus finished was our salvation. But then Paul says in Philippians 2:12 that we are to "work out" THIS salvation with fear and trembling. If it were a done deal for everyone and God was now All in All, then what is this that Paul speaks of? Scratch that one out of the book too Dean. This salvation of Christ is a progressive stepping out exercise program for those enduring tribulations. We WORK THIS OUT. We walk it through and bring it about by subduing our individual flesh natures unto the impaling of personal crosses, which we are still to bear. For if I believe what you wrote, then the cross is over too! Not for me Dean, I am still canceling out self in me. So then I can't fit into the eyesight of God you speak of. 

There are many other examples I could give, like no need for the 5-fold ministry or armor of righteousness or discernment of the Sword of the Lord if what you wrote is correct. These things are all to be discarded. Next thing we'd have to do is discard the whole bible if what you wrote is true! Don't allow the truth of ultimate reconciliation to become a swing that leads to TOO MUCH good doctrine. The pendulum needs to be kept in balance according to present truth. God WILL BE All in All when the times for that come, but that time is not yet. First He comes for those who are the fallen tabernacle of David.

I trust you understand.

Kenneth B Visscher





Ken,

Good to hear from you. I appreciate your insights and contribution to the body of Christ.

You present a balanced approach.

As you say, “Don't allow the truth of ultimate reconciliation to become a swing that leads to TOO MUCH good doctrine.” 

A balanced approach recognizes our human condition, and faith allows us to see those things which be not as though they were. Romans 4:17 

Personally, I feel the need in the body of Christ to see beyond the present hour of darkness.
 As you say “In point of fact, we are very far from unity in the Spirit in this hour.”
Nevertheless, we are told to maintain the unity of the spirit. Ephesians 4:3
The unity of the spirit is a present reality if we have eyes to see it.
This is the classic tension of the kingdom now, but not yet. 

I presented this tension as God’s view being above our own views.

Perhaps, as we begin to see beyond all the various schools of theology and time-lines, as good as they may be, whether Futurist, Premillennial, Millennial, Post-millennial, Preterist, or Historical… Perhaps, then we will begin to see the unity that truly exists in Christ. 

Sometimes, we have to see by faith before we can experience the reality.

After we see with spiritual understanding, then we can be strengthened with all might that we might walk worthy of the Lord

This role of revelation seems to be suggested by Paul.

  For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Colossians 1:9-11 

Indeed we are complete in Christ. Colossians 2:10

This is a message that often needs to be seen and believed if we are to walk in it.  I know you understand this and I appreciate your perspective.

As you say, “I know that God does see us completed in Christ, but because He is God.”  And so I agree, and often, there is a pastoral heart that cares for those who are bogged down in the darkness, and sometimes, there is even a prophetic call that pulls us out.

What we are looking at is two sides of the same coin.
Perhaps, this is the required balance that you are speaking of.

When Christ came and died it was revealed that the old sacrifices were not necessary. They had served their purpose. However we did not throw out the Old Testament. Today, we read the old with a deeper insight, understanding how it taught us and led us to Christ.

Indeed, if we see the consummation as complete, we are no longer bound by the traditional understanding of the scriptures. However, if and when we see new truth, I trust that this does not mean that we have to scratch old things out of the Bible. We can bring out of our treasure things new and old.

Hopefully, as you say, we won’t “have to scratch that part out of my bible”, as we begin to see more and more from a divine perspective. We will, however, be freed from the requirements to try to recreate the past, and liberated to move forward into whatever God might bring us into.  Also, we will be less likely to impose scripture on our brethren.

I understand your concern. This in unchartered territory and we don’t know where it will take us. I hesitated to post this article for this very reason.

But I sense that it might also be helpful. I am considering making some adjustments to the article to recognize your concerns.

The tension between the old and new seems ever present.

Personally, I see all things new.
If any man is in Christ there is a new creation and all things are made new.

The old creation is gone. The new is come. 2Corinthians 5:17 
All things are made new.

The Old Jerusalem was destroyed, and there is a New Jerusalem that is the mother of us all. We are born from above. Galatians 4:26

All things are made new.
Even the old (corporate) man Adam is crucified with Christ. Christ is all.  
We can put off the old and put on the new man because of this reality.


The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Corinthians 15:26
And yet even now, for those who see it, this
end of death “is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” 2 Timothy 1:10 

For such, who can see death as abolished, the consummation is just a step away, and all of human history can be seen from a new perspective. This is not much different than those who from the standpoint of the Cross can look back at the temple sacrifices of the Old Testament.  Personally, we look back in history at the cross. However, some looked into the future (to and through the cross), but its effect is the same,
Hebrews 11:13 . They did not have to throw out the old, and neither do we. However, we will see the purpose of old revelations in a new light.

Nor does the fulfillment invalidate or destroy the old. But we no longer see the need to impose it on one another, as each of us, every man in his own order, begins to walk in this newness of life.  Nor do we need to discount the journey of another who is on a path of discovery, which is not yet walking in the same insight. Just as we love the Jewish faith, despite its inability to satisfy us, we recognize its place in the lives of others. So also, as new light comes, the current Christianity will seem old and obsolete. 

Truly we are complete in Christ. And so the “hope of the Overcomer is (not) dashed, but answered and can be fulfilled. Grace to me is also the realization that there is nothing that I need to do, for it is already done in Christ. I just come line upon line, revelation upon revelation, into the realization of it. And so we are empowered to live.  Hebrews 11:1

Admittedly, we don’t always see, and speak exactly the same thing,
At least from a human perspective, 

But we are on the same team,

URfriend, Dean Johnson

PS Every member of the body of Christ has a useful place.
I just wanted to let you know that I recognize your voice.





Hello Dean;

Very nice to hear from you and your loyalty is so wonderful to see.

There is one thing I see prophetically that may help in this issue. Then there is a second statement I will make after that. Both apply to your response, which to me was wonderful.  

First of all, the darkness you speak of Dean, this is part and parcel of God's plan for mankind through the working of the mysteries of God, the one in this part being the mystery of Iniquity (self will). The earth in its rotation goes from light to dark continually, so does our spiritual walk. And so does the time element of the purposes of God. The Lord has ordained that all His mysteries, all 16 of them, be fulfilled, including the mystery of Iniquity which has to be completed. For this to happen the blackboard must become very black. This is part of the purpose of God.  

Now for my statement.

This type of thought you have is to me most dangerous. Why? Because it leads to the malady we wrestle with now in the son company of a doctrine we call "the fatherhood of God". This doctrine has brought some serious error into the camp of the Overcomers which has caused some of our brethren to go off into delusions. The fatherhood of God doctrine basically teaches God as being the Father of all men, women and children. That God (or Christ if you will) is now in everybody right now. Also, this doctrine lends credence to a walk which leads to lukewarm results. The end of the matter is a lack-luster walk in lukewarmness because it is all done and there is nothing left 'to do'.

 That is why I am so strong against that kind of thought you had there Dean. I do indeed see this as the final outcome, but in our present hour this outcome is not in play as YET. God will indeed become All in All, but to say He is now is an affront to the premise of scripture and to the fact that no one can come into the things of the Lord without being born again. If Christ is in everybody as some Kingdom preachers are saying, then everyone is now already born of the Spirit of God as Jesus taught and therefore the work of restoring man into salvation is no more. Really Dean, you should state this to those who are in denominations for they are so busy building up kingdoms and trying to save man from the flames of eternal torment that if they knew what you were saying they might have some hope!  

For those who Overcome Dean, it is a different matter. For the man or woman who comes to God desiring to obey the Lord and walk through their lives in totality with victory as conquerors in Christ will know that the first they do is to put down antichrist in themselves. They first see that the real battle is with their own carnality, their own flesh nature. If the Overcomer Dean views themselves as having a flesh nature, then how does your scenario fit? For when one comes honestly to God to be victorious in what Christ accomplished for them in His death and resurrection they will see that they are in need of cleansing. This is a PROGRESSIVE THING. A working of "lutros", which is the Greek for this cleansing I speak of which is as waves slowly deteriorating a shoreline.  

It is a done deal in the fact that God WILL include mankind in totality in His salvation, but it is even more true that there are only but a very few who have found this straight and narrow path which leads to righteousness. We are not in this totality AT THIS POINT that you speak of. And each one IN DUE ORDER will enter their time of processing into perfection in Christ. The scriptures do not teach otherwise.

 And I say that with respect both to what you wrote and how you answered me.

Bless you.

Kenneth B Visscher





 

Ken,

The things that are believed affect the way we live.  Truth sets us free. For example, the doctrine of the grace of God can liberate us from the power of sin. However, the doctrine of grace, as beautiful as it is, has also been used as an excuse and a license for loose living. Those with ill intensions or even lukewarm hearts have turned the grace of God into lasciviousness. Some even opposed Paul’s doctrine of grace for this very reason. Paul had to respond: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” Roman 6:1-2. Sometimes, it is wiser to address the inappropriate response to a teaching than to completely write off the message itself.

You expressed a concern about a popular doctrine: The Universal Fatherhood of God.  “The fatherhood of God doctrine basically teaches God as being the Father of all men, women and children. That God (or Christ if you will) is now in everybody right now.  Also, this doctrine lends credence to a walk, which leads to lukewarm results. The end of the matter is a lack-luster walk in lukewarmness because it is all done and there is nothing left 'to do'.

There are many similar truths that can bring out the best or the worst in us.

In the early church there was even a discussion whether the “restitution of all things” should be preached to the masses because of this very concern.

The idea that “Christ is all and in all” is another such truth. It can bring out the best in us in our dealings with humankind, OR it can leave us convinced that there is no need for personal conversion. NEVERTHELESS improper application of a truth does not nullify the power of the message.

Christ is all in all.” Colossians 3:11. This is true. A proper response might be to acknowledge this truth and accept and embrace the Christ within. And for those of us who already believe, a proper response might be to acknowledge that of God within everyone, recognizing that what we do to the least of our brethren we do to Christ. This is an attitude of love, based in truth.

In contrast, a lukewarm response to the “Christ in all” on the part of believers might be to oppose the benefits of conversion, or even to see no need to nurture the seed of Christ within. For the masses an apathetic response might be to devalue the spiritual reality of Christ in all, or the benefits of relationship with God. “

The Grace of God was not intended as an excuse. The universal incarnation of Christ in all was not so we could ignore our need to respond, but so that we could see the relationship we must respond to.

I have learned that many truths, and many teachings can be beneficial, or perverted depending on the state of our hearts.

As to whether Christ is in all, there are some scriptures that are relevant. All things were created and exist in Christ. Christ came that he might fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10). We are all so interconnected in the One Body that it is a stretch to suggest otherwise.

“For it was IN HIM that all things were CREATED, in
heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether
thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; ALL THINGS
were created AND EXIST THROUGH HIM [by His service,
intervention] AND IN and FOR HIM."
(Colossians 1:16 Amplified)

Even now, All things EXIST, and consist, cohere and are held together
IN CHRIST.

"And He Himself existed before all things, and IN
HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST (cohere, are held together)."
(Colossians 1:17 Amplified)

And All things find their consummation and fulfillment in
"Christ"

"[He planned] for the maturity of the
times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head
them up and consummate them IN CHRIST, [both]
things in heaven and things on the earth."
(Ephesians 1:10 Amplified)

Not only is all in Christ, but Christ FILLS everything with
himself.

"Which is His body, the fullness of Him Who FILLS ALL
IN ALL [for in that body lives the full measure of
Him Who makes everything complete, and WHO FILLS EVERYTHING
EVERYWHERE WITH HIMSELF]."
(Ephesians 1:23 Amplified)

"He Who descended is the [very] same
as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that
He [HIS PRESENCE] MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS (the
WHOLE UNIVERSE, from the lowest to the highest)."
(Ephesians 4:10 Amplified)

This is not just in the future. Christ is all and IN ALL. (Colossian 3:11)

When I think of Christ filling all things with Himself,
I am reminded of His own words.

"Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not
for their sake only that I make this request], but
also for all those who will ever come to believe in (trust
in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching,
That they all may be one, [just] as You, FATHER
ARE IN ME , AND I IN YOU, that they also may be ONE IN US, so THAT
THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE and be convinced that You have sent
Me.
I have given to them the glory and honor which You have given
Me, that they may be one [even] as We are one:
I IN THEM and You in Me, in order THAT THEY MAY BECOME ONE AND
PERFECTLY UNITED, that the world may know
and [definitely]
recognize that You sent Me and that You have loved them [even]
as You have loved Me.
Father, I desire that they also whom You have entrusted
to Me [as Your gift to Me] may be with Me where
I am, so that they may see My glory, which You have given Me
[Your love gift to Me]; for You loved Me before
the foundation of the world."
(John 17:20-24 Amplified)

God's purpose from before the foundation of the world
was to UNITE ALL IN CHRIST.

All was created in Him. All exists in Him. All finds its consummation
in Him.

Paul explains this.
" For FROM HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are ALL THINGS.
[For all things originate with Him and come from
Him; all things live through Him, and all things center
in and tend to consummate and to end in Him.] To Him
be glory forever! Amen (so be it)."
(Romans 11: 36 Amplified)

Some see this exclusively as a yet future event. This may not be the whole truth.

Many still see the division between believer and non-believer. This is acceptable, but not the whole truth, and needs to be balanced with another truth.

All humanity is even now united in one in Christ. Jews and Gentiles are united in one body in Christ. Making “in himself of twain (of two groups) ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross. Ephesians 2:15-16.

I have especially enjoyed Ephesians because it moves salvation into the present tense much more than most of the New Testament.

Christ died and rose. All humankind and creation participated in this event.

There has been a new creation. A new birth. A new man. And everyone is included. What is done, will be manifested every man in his own order. It just needs to be revealed. This is a PROGRESSIVE THING. A progressive revelation.

It is finished. It is being worked out. And it will be completed. All are true. Each viewpoint complements the other. I often have the feeling that much of what is opposed and fought about in the religious circles is based on holding to a limited perspective, and an incomplete revelation. We need the whole body, and each other to see the whole picture.

Things that appear to be in opposition to one another, are really already reconciled together in one. (And being reconciled). Even opposing ideas, doctrines, and works are reconciled together, and complementary in Christ. Even the darkness, which was created for a purpose, has its place. Everything is reconciled in One under the One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Ephesians 4:6 

Reasonably, as your concern suggests, such talk of the Universal Fatherhood of God is sometimes troubling. Perhaps for good reason. It can be misapplied. Some are even called children of the devil, but there is still one God and Father of all, who is above all. There are two sides to every coin, and there is a bigger picture.

If you do share your concerns, I will probably be able to agree with you, and recognize the validity of your position. However, this darkness and these apparent divisions have a place in the working out of the ultimate plan, within the one body. For this reason, they are not so troubling, for he has made both one, and he is our peace.

All things are from Him, through him and to Him.   

Working the powers of the age to come into the present,

URfriend, Dean Johnson






Hello Dean;

First of all, this will be extremely short, not at all nicely laid out as you did with your email above, I am limited for time today and want to keep this as brief as I can with the hope that Ross may wish to say more.

You are most right about being my friend Dean. I love you so much brother, you are in my heart every day and I want you to know that.

Dean, I will only say about the verses you shared above that there are also many other verses, which say opposite. Verses, which exemplify very clearly the fact that no one can come to Jesus for salvation except that Father draws that person. Verses that one MUST be born again. Verses which reveal our enmity and war against God prior to knowing He loves us. I have just as many verses that prove that God or Christ is NOT in every man at this time! The bible is my source for these.

Now that is not to say that I do not know that HE WILL BE ALL IN ALL. But He is NOT YET ALL IN ALL, for there are some who go out from us because they are not of us! Not only so, but EACH MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER.

Also Dean, there was one line I will take time to comment on. I quote you below.

 QUOTE:  "Christ died and rose. All humankind and creation participated in this event."  END QUOTE.

Dean, positionally this is true, but it is NOT TRUE in the daily working out of salvation which comes by enduring trials, tribulations, fires and testings, the bearing of a personal cross to cancel out our own way etc, etc, etc. And not all men are participating in what Christ did POSITIONALLY for them for they know not yet the light of salvation.

Dean, to say, "Jesus is inside of you, find Him there" is very very dangerous, UNSCRIPTURAL and LUKEWARM. Simple as that. Other than the verses and arguments noted above in your email, for a man to say Christ is in another IF HE WAS NOT would be a gross area of pride and deception. (Paragraph edited)

 Not just that but if you have been reading my writings on the Ephod you will see I shared about the son of perdition. This is the religious nature of the fallen part of our nature which IMITATES God. And this nature LIVES IN YOUR MIRROR. This entity of darkness imitates perfectly the Lord in every single respect. If you read this at my writings you'd see what I mean for I have experienced this first hand. When you tell someone that Jesus is in you, then they look and 'think' they see Him there, when in fact it can be this iniquity looking just like Jesus, talking like Jesus, acting like Jesus, glorious like Jesus - but ISN'T JESUS, then you have deceived the person. This is very real and it is very very serious.

The reason we now have broken the Lord's law of unity that Christ prayed for in John 17  and ended up with some 65000 christian divided denominations is because men look in and see this false Jesus thinking it's the real Jesus. Simple as that.

So when you tell me He is in everyone, you better balance it out with the rest of the Word of God that says very clearly He is not in everyone! You can't just have it one way Dean.

 Your Friend in Christ,





Ken

Dean; Am Cc'ng this email to Ross McKay,





 

Hello Dean,

We were in prayer together and we know that this is new age, this Jesus in
everybody doctrine, just as it is in the DNA doctrine. You've lifted the
scripture out of context and error is the result. Read what Ross McKay wrote
below and then take heed brother.

Blessings.
Kenneth B Visscher




Now the response from Ross McKay. 

Further as to how I see this question.

In order for one to be "a son", one must of course first have a father. It
may be surprising to some that the Bible reveals that all men are not "sons
of God", and consequently God cannot be their Father, at least not yet.  In
fact, the New Testament (KJV) uses the phrase "son of God" only once and
speaks of the untainted "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.  All other
references to "the Son of God" are capitalized and refer to Jesus.  Of
course there are many scriptures that use the singular word "son" which
relate to "the sons of men" (Mark 3:28; Ephesians 3:5) of which there are only two
references in the New Testament and twenty one in the Old Testament...

...Paul the Apostle had the true revelation of "God the Father."  He refers
to God as the Father thirteen times in the New Testament, all within the
context only of Christ or His church."  When Paul said, "There is one God
and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in you all
(Ephesians 4:6), he was in no way saying God was the Father of all men and God was
in all men.  The "you all" here in its proper context with both the
proceeding and following scriptures, is limited in reference to "every one
of us.... given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
(vs.7).

Again, "The Father of all" who "is in you all" clearly refers only to those
of the Christian church to whom Paul was speaking at the time...those ones
whom were being exhorted to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are
called." Eph.4:1.  We see it referring only to those who have being called
into "one body and one spirit" (vs.4), which is the spiritual body of Christ.
Truly, He is not only the Creator but also the only life implanting Father
of all these ones through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. [end quote].

Ken, Again, it is clearly stated that Paul is writing here to the church at
Ephesus & is speaking of them, not anyone else!  "Paul, an apostle of Jesus
Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and TO THE
FAITHFUL IN CHRIST JESUS: Grace be to you, and peace, from GOD OUR
FATHER....Eph.1:1,2.

Gbug






Ken,

I think I understand your concern.

There is a good reason why the scriptures separate and divide the sheep from the goats. Indeed, there are those who believe in Christ, and those who do not. And you have a pastoral concern that is valid. From a practical standpoint it can be useful to recognize this distinction. We see this throughout the scriptures.

Regarding your email about the interpretation of the Ephesian scriptures. It is partially correct. However, many of the scriptures in Ephesians are deliberately worded in such a way that more than one interpretation is possible. This is done on purpose throughout Ephesians so that the scope and the extent of the message will be read differently depending on the insight and perspective of the reader. In this way, not only the believers in Ephesus are chosen, but also if we are able to perceive it, all creation is called in “The Son” into the image of God in the Universal Christ. It is a little like a parable that hides the full extent of the message until we are able to see it.

For example in chapter 1:23  “Fullness” can refer to Christ or the church, and the filler can be God or Christ, so in this way "the fullness of him who fills all in all" seems to be deliberately worded in such a way that several meanings are appropriate. As well, in Ephesians the lines between church, Christ and God are deliberately fuzzy. Therefore, the church is both that which is filled and completed by Christ, and that which fills and completes Christ. As well, the word “all” is used repeatedly, and can refer to the church, or to all creation (1:10,11,15,21,22). Saints or “holy ones” can refer to believers and even to angelic beings. (3:8-10, Daniel 4:17) The typical rule of exegesis that says there is one right interpretation does not apply. The author intended several meaning to been seen, as we were able

I will attempt to express why I see the need to share the things I have written about the eternal perspective. I believe they are necessary if we are to move ahead.

When Christ came, the Old Testament, though still valid at the time, was passing away. And though it was still valid, those who lived in that old paradigm of separation, and alienation, and temple sacrifices, became stuck in the past, often trying to control or impose upon those who could see to a new day dawning. 

There is a story about the Pharisees who knew the scriptures, but they could not see past the scriptural precepts of their day to the Eternal God who gave them. Mired in their own scriptural interpretation of their own experience, they could not see God’s eternal perspective.

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him.
And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? Mark 10:3
And they said,

Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
And Jesus answered and said unto them,

For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. Mark 10:5
But from the beginning
of the creation God made them male and female. Mark 10:6
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.  Mark 10:8, 9

The scriptures were written for the hardness of our hearts.

Our need to separate and divide is not benefitial.

From the beginning, it was not so. Matthew 19:8

In this passage and through marriage, God is trying to teach us that we are all one. Paul built on this when he tried to express the great mystery. Ephesians 5:32 The church, which is the body of Christ, includes all things. There is only one body. Ephesians 4:4 Christ is all there is. We sometimes fail to see this one body, because we are still focusing on the old realm of Adam, which was alienated from the life of God through ignorance, because of blindness. (Ephesians 4:18, 21, 22)

I tend to think this was the challenge that the Apostles faced in all their writings: Having a revelation to give, and yet being unable to deliver it because of the hardness of people’s hearts.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.  

1Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

They had to speak using the manner and worldview of mere men because of the infirmity of the audience. Romans 6:19. When they wrote to the Jews, who embraced the law and its consequences, they spake as a Jew. When they wrote to a Gentile, they became as Gentiles.

Some religious folk become so accustomed to this paradigm of separation and alienation, which shows us our need for Christ, that they think it is normal and proper to perpetuate that paradigm of alienation. And they quote the scriptures, and the apostles who wrote to them because of the hardness of their hearts, to back their position.

They may speak of and even embrace divorce, or that some should be put out of the Church, or other divisions. But these are temporary measures to bring us to Christ. It was not so from the beginning.

In the beginning, God was the Father of all. And in the end, God shall be the Father of all. And there shall be no separation or division. We were all one. And we shall be all one. Many things are written even in the scriptures that seem contrary to this. These things are written for our learning that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. When these things pass away then the perfect is come.

Today, most still see a division between believer and unbeliever. But Christ justifies the ungodly. What God joined together before the foundation of the earth, let not man put asunder. In Christ, we are all one. Jews and Greeks, male and female, bond and free, there is no difference. “What God hath cleansed”, we do not have to call unclean Acts 10:15. Little by little we begin to see through the religious paradigms that taught us in the past. This is why I wrote about seeing our world from the standpoint of the consummation. 

Many things have been written to us because of the hardness of our hearts and our inability to see, but that does not change what exists from the beginning. Perhaps our journey is to get past our own limited temporal insight, and to see things as they were in the beginning, and how they will be in the end, and to live and teach appropriately, from that perspective.

I remember George Hawtin once writing that as the end of the age approaches those paradigms that are held sacred will begin to pass away. If I remember correctly, he wrote these things about church meetings. The scriptural teachings and practices of this age will pass, and those that live and teach according to the powers of the age to come, will be misunderstood.  This is true. But I also understand that today many still feel the need for these things. Many things are written in the scriptures, and are still allowed if only for the weakness of our flesh, and the hardness of our heart. Granted, we still use the human language of separation, alienation, and division. We still have believers and unbelievers, sheep and goats, and not all are called the children of God. But it was not so from the beginning, neither will it be in the end.

We also must take heed lest our knowledge become a stumbling block. And conversely, we must also take heed lest we become as the Pharisees and the Sadducees quoting the scriptures to divide, alienate and separate. This is not how the scriptures were intended. Division and separation is a paradigm of a bygone and passing age. Christ is all and in all. This is the present day foretaste of the end when God will become all in all. In our day-to-day living we must take care not to minimize such grandeur.

There is one God and Father of all. It was so from the beginning and so shall it be in the end. Let’s not judge those who have faith to see beyond this evil day, and who want to live accordingly. Rather let us have wisdom to acknowledge divine insight, but then to direct it appropriately, so that it does not lead to error.

Christ is all there is, Colossians 3:11

In the light that lightens every man that cometh into the world, John 1:9

URfriend, Dean Johnson

PS It is in embracing the eternal realities now, that we appropriate them in the present. 

Christ has done this for us in the incarnation. As his body, we also have the same privilege. As a man thinks in his heart so is he. As a man thinks in his heart so he becomes. Proverbs 23:7

We are all one.





http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/one.html

At this point, I believe Ken might have become busy writing his blog, and relating this and similar discussions with others in the body of Christ. The next email was just a forwarded message originally intended for other recipients, and a message directing me to his blog, but these too are relevant, and related to this discussion.

***** and *****,
I can't believe you'd fall for this stuff. Not only is it reprehensible
doctrine, it is downright deception. I pray you would take this before the
Lord so you can be cleansed of the iniquity of following false doctrines
such as the dna one….

This is NOT being taught as a metaphor by these ministries. It is being
taught as bible truth and it is in fact NOT bible truth but it is "new age"
spirit truth, which is false. A metaphor means "type" or "shadow" or a
story that implies something by using an example. This dna teaching does not
do this.

The Lord revealed to us here that Gideon's army of 300 is being formed and
that the first two groups who "were" part of this army are being whittled
off, not thousands, not a few thousand or hundred, but 300, that is the
final number.

Those Kingdom Ministries that are going off in these tangents and false new
age doctrines such as Christ in everybody NOW and this dna and several
others I can mention are whittled off of Gideon's 300.
Let that be a warning to you in the Love of God. Don't mess with this stuff
that is unscriptural and UN true.
Yes, Christ does change us in our inner man, but there is nothing about this
that has originated from the Lord or His word and to say it does sets you in
the camp of those who won't go forth into the final stage of glorification
and overcoming to set creation free.
If you think I am deceiving you then think again. Take my words to the Lord.
The truth will set you free.

Kenneth B Visscher





Dean

This one’s important.

The next writing has been posted at The Visscher Family Homepage www.kbv.ca
It is titled ~ The New Jerusalem ~ The Tabernacle Of God - Part Two
This writing is one of the most fearsome writings ever written on our site
and it is to be weighed carefully in prayer. May the Lord grant grace for
this rebuke to work effectively in your life as you seek Him for His perfect
will to be done…

The Blog itself is at:
http://greater-emmanuel.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-jerusalem-tabernacle-of-god-part_10.html

May the Lord direct us into His perfect will.

If you would like to be included in emailed prophecy, discussions on
righteous living or answers to spiritual questions please send us your email
address. Thank you.

If you know of anyone else who would be edified by these studies please
forward them this email and if they wish they can contact us. Thank you.

God Bless.
In Christ.
Kenneth B Visscher




Visit us at The Visscher Family Homepage
http://www.kbv.ca
ken@kbv.ca





Thanks Ken,

I appreciated this post.
I think I mentioned that I had intended to make some adjustments to my blog
article to bring the balance we spoke of. Perhaps, I might edit our email
discussion to remove the "more personal" references, and add it onto the
blog, and then post a link to this rather passionate article.
http://kbv.ca/blog_New_Jerusalem/The_New_Jerusalem_The_Tabernacle_Of_God_02.htm
Perhaps, and hopefully, that will help encourage the seeking and discovery
that we desire.
Any comments or concerns?

URfriend, Dean Johnson





All I can say Dean is that you are the most precious brother I have ever
met, really. It is your SPIRIT I love brother. I LOVE YOU. And always will.
I am so glad that my responses have not turned you away from me. These
things are hard I know, but we will work it out.
Anyways, I will need again the link to the blog so I can see the changes. We
will find the will of God for sure.
Ken

PS. While corresponding with Ken, others got involved in the discussion. 

A quote was pointed out from my site that I think may relate to this discussion. 

“We believe that there is that of God in every man. Jesus is the light that lightens every person. Jesus is the life that is breathed into every person. He is the word and the seed that is planted into the hearts of people everywhere. That seed will grow, and every person made alive will fully manifest the life and glory of God. We don't look on the outward man, but we see Jesus, the image of God, in everyone.”

Taken from “Who Are We?”  http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/qintro.html

What do you think?  Let the body Speak.

In Love, Share Your Thoughts for the Edification of the Body. 

Post a Comment

Or Visit Ken's Blog

 

Contact Dean Johnson

Dean Johnson Ministries

 

 

 

































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