Dear Mr. Skerbinc,
As I've received two e-mails with the same subject recently, I will anwer to both of them, adressing my answers to both senders.
----- Original Message -----
From: Anton Skerbinc
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:51 AM
Dear Mr. Jagodzinski,
I read at Gary Gorsha's website your Guest Book posting on the subject of Veneti, and I decided to briefly respond. Your manner of writing surprises me, you perhaps don't realize it, but you write like as if you were a 19th century German historian.
I cannot see anything surprising. Maybe you are convinced to the "theory" of Bor and Co. but I am standing on the ground of science and not fantasy and that is why it is impossible for me to accept Bor's opinions. Please read details in the other e-mail why I do think so.
You are attacking Slovenes, a Slavic people, as if they did not have the right to Veneti research.
Please read my comments again. I am not attacking any nation, and I wish all the best to all Slavic brothers, including the Slovenes. I am attacking the views of the authors of the book which is not based on facts but on fiction. You can read examples from my other mail.
Bor and co. have tumped up that Polish researchers stated that the Adriatic Venets were Slavs.
They have trumped up that there are West Slavic features in the Slovene language.
They have trumped up that only Slovene, Lusatian and Sanscrit have preserved dual number.
They have even trumped up that Venetic texts were not deciphered before they "deciphered" them.
They have trumped up that the texts cannot be understand with the help of Latin and other non-Slavic languages.
And finally, they have trumped up that the texts can be deciphered with Slovene (double error: generally ancient texts cannot be deciphered with modern languages / dialects).
If you are of another opinion, please decipher the Venetic text I quoted (in the other e-mail) with Slovene!!! Or any other of Venetic inscriptions published on the Internet.
You forget that there is a historical connection between Slovenes and the West Slavic Veneti.
There is not such a connection at all. To the contrary, there is a gap of 600 years between the youngest Venets (100 BC) and the more ancient Slavs (500 AD).
Slovenes have always been called by Germans either Vinedi or Windische. The names Veneti, Venedi, Vinidi, Wenden, Wendische, Windische, Vendek mean the same people, they apply to the same West Slavic people at different times and in different geographic locations.
And the Slavs themselves also knew a nation called Veneti who were not Slavs! They took their name as the name of Vętiči (Old Russian Vjatiči), one of their tribes which was obviously made of people of another non-Slavic origin who were Slavized. The Slavs took that name as a common adjective vętj- 'larger, bigger'. In the same way they took the name of another non-Slavic nation, the Avars (cf. Czech obři 'giants', the same Polish olbrzymi (Old polish obrzymi), Old Russian obre), several hundreds of years later.
Notice also that the Slavs did NOT call themselves Venets! It is the name what was dubbed for them by the Germans. The Germans called their Eastern neighbours "Veneti" (in their native forms Wendische, Windische etc.) without difference what nation they were from. In the same way Poles called their North-Eastern neighbours "Prusy" and the name meant originally one of Baltic peoples, but next – the Germans. History knows many similar instances (Turkish Bulgars and Slavic Bulgarians, ancient Venets and modern Venetians = inhabitants of Venetia province in Italy, Franks and French, Americans = Indians and Americans = English-spoken colonists from the Old World, Indians = inhabitants of India and Indians = inhabitants of America (Polish differentiates both names: Hindusi - Indianie, but English does not), ancient Egyptians and modern Egyptians (Arabs), ancients Assyrians and modern Assyrians (speaking Aramaic, not Assyrian) , the Jewish language = Hebrew from the Semitic family, and the Jewish language = Jiddisch from the Germanic group, and even ancient Volci (a Celtic tribe which once lived in Southern France) and modern Welsh (whose English name comes from Volci through an Old Germanic *wolhi) (in Polish also Włosi = Italians, and Wołosi = Romanians), who have nothing to do with Volci or generally with the Celts.
So, even if "Slovenes have always been called by Germans either Vinedi or Windische", exactly nothing appears from this fact.
As you know, the dominant power for many centuries in central Europe has been Germany, and all areas of research were effectively monopolized by it, with the result that every department of study, be it history or archaeology or linguistics was subverted to serve Germany's expansionist and anti-Slavic ideas.
Please do not mix newer history and older times. And do not mix politics and science! Yes, I know, it would be very fine for the Slovenes if the views of Bor and co. appear to be true. That is why you must be very attentve when analyzing such views (I do not write "theory" because it is not a theory!). But science based on somebody's wishes is not science but fantasy.
Slavs were sub-human and they had no history, and they contributed nothing to European civilization, Germany was the only nation that contributed.
As a Pole I know it excellently. My nation suffered enough from the Germans during the history, beginning from the 10th century until the 2nd World War. But yet it is not a reason for supporting lies!
However, things are changing, and Slovenes now have the freedom to do their own research, which does not mean Germans will accept the findings of a small Slavic nation, just as they did not accept the findings of Polish scientists in the last century,
It was not the Germans who rejected the theory that the Polish nation is the oldest among the Slavs and that all the Slavs come from Poland. It was Poles themselves. Older ideas were rejected some years ago not because of their political incorrectness but because of newer discoveries (e.g. those from Ukraine which suggest that there were the Slavic homeland).
however, there are some world-class researchers who are in agreement with the so-called Veneti theory as presented by Slovenes Savli, Bor, and Tomazic, in the book Veneti: First Builders of European Community.
Šavli, Bor and Tomažič are world-class researchers??? Who has heard about them? They are completely unknown - together with their fantasies not basing on facts - except in Slovenia, maybe.
The Italian historical linguist Mario Alinei from the University of Utrecht, Holland, who attended the international conference on Ancient Peoples of Europe in Slovenia, 2003, stated that Slavs were in central Europe since Stone Age, they did not come from Pripet Swamps in the 6th century A.D., as German historians would have us believe.
It may be another lie of Bor and co. which you are believing. Godłowski was not a German but a Polish archeologist, as you can see from his name. It was he who formed that conception of "Pripet Swamps", not German scientists.
He stated that Slovenes were in the Po River Valley since Stone Age.
And I have heard that he made it basing himself on anthropological data, not on the language. Anthropological or genetical facts have nothing to do with languages!
That is of course why we even now find Slovenian place-names and toponyms all over northern Italy, and the Alps.
Please count them if you can, together with their etymology. I do not know such names.
Lord Colin Renfrew of Cambridge University, read the book, and recomended it to others.
Renfrew wrote a book "Archeology and the language" (I am translating its Polish title back, so I may not be exact). This is NOT a scientific book. It is full of errors, also of logical errors. None of serious researchers treats Renfrew's views seriously. His theory that Indo-European people came into Europe as early as at the beginning of the 6th millennium is unbelievable at all.
I wrote an abundant critique article on this book (in Polish, http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwpl/renfrew.html). Another Polish author, a famous archeologist Maciej Popko wrote me an e-mail with congratulations: he can also see that that renfrew's book is not a serious work. And he wrote a similar article. None of us knew about the article of the other. But our deductions were very similar.
Renfrew is known from his theory of spreading people... but all the rest is even not in scientific style. He cannot imagine mechanisms of spreading people other than he proposed - it is not too scientific in fact. And because he cannot imagine such mechanisms, he thinks that people did not migrate at all... Nonsense not worth even time to read. If you can speak Polish, you are welcome on my page to learn how erroraneous Renfrew is. Maybe one day I will translate this article into English.
If you are interested in the above book, where you can find a great deal of information on the subject of Veneti from the Baltic to the Adriatic and beyond, I would be glad to send you a complimentary copy. All you need to do is send me your postal address. It is an attractive book, hard covers, 150 illustrations, index, 533 pages.
United Europe has brought hunger, unemployment and homelessness to Poland. Ca. 4 millions of Polish people have not a job. Ca. 200 people die of the cold each winter. Also me personally, I am living in more and more poverty. So, if you can afford to make me a present of this book, I will really appreciate it. I cannot promise that I will change my opinion, but I will read the book carefully for sure if only I have it in my hands. All I can do now is to search it in public libraries. But there nobody has heard of this book.
If you want my address, here you are:
Grzegorz Jagodziński [n acute]
ul. 9 Maja 3/87
32-590 Libiąż [a ogonek - z dot]
With many cordial regards,
Page Created: February 1, 2004
Last Updated: February 16, 2004
©Copyright 2004 Gary L. Gorsha
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††慶⁷‽ⰰ栠㴠〠業楮畭呭牨獥潨摬㴠㌠〰††晩⠠潴⁰㴽猠汥⥦笠 †††爠瑥牵牴敵†† †椠琨灹潥⡦楷摮睯椮湮牥楗瑤⥨㴠‽渧浵敢❲⤠笠 †††眠㴠眠湩潤湩敮坲摩桴††††‽楷摮睯椮湮牥效杩瑨††††汥敳椠搨捯浵湥潤畣敭瑮汅浥湥⁴☦⠠潤畣敭瑮搮捯浵湥䕴敬敭瑮挮楬湥坴摩桴簠⁼潤畣敭瑮搮捯浵湥䕴敬敭瑮挮楬湥䡴楥桧⥴ ††††⁷‽潤畣敭瑮搮捯浵湥䕴敬敭瑮挮楬湥坴摩桴††††‽潤畣敭瑮搮捯浵湥䕴敬敭瑮挮楬湥䡴楥桧㭴 †素 †攠獬晩⠠潤畣敭瑮戮摯⁹☦⠠潤畣敭瑮戮摯汣敩瑮楗瑤籼搠捯浵湥潢祤挮楬湥䡴楥桧⥴ ††††⁷‽潤畣敭瑮戮摯汣敩瑮楗瑤㭨 †††栠㴠搠捯浵湥潢祤挮楬湥䡴楥桧㭴 †素ਊ††敲畴湲⠠眨㸠洠湩浩浵桔敲桳汯⥤☠…栨㸠洠湩浩浵桔敲桳汯⥤㬩紊⤨⤩㬩ਊਊ楷摮睯漮汮慯‽畦据楴湯⤨笠 †瘠牡映㴠搠捯浵湥敧䕴敬敭瑮祂摉∨祬潣䙳潯整䅲≤㬩 †瘠牡戠㴠搠捯浵湥敧䕴敬敭瑮䉳呹条慎敭∨潢祤⤢せ㭝 †戠愮灰湥䍤楨摬昨㬩 †映献祴敬搮獩汰祡㴠∠汢捯≫††潤畣敭瑮朮瑥汅浥湥䉴䥹⡤氧捹獯潆瑯牥摁䙩慲敭⤧献捲㴠✠愯浤愯⽤潦瑯牥摁椮牦浡瑨汭㬧ਊ††⼯匠楬敤湉敪瑣潩੮††昨湵瑣潩⡮ ††††慶‽潤畣敭瑮挮敲瑡䕥敬敭瑮✨晩慲敭⤧††††瑳汹潢摲牥㴠✠✰††††瑳汹慭杲湩㴠〠††††瑳汹楤灳慬⁹‽戧潬正㬧 †††攠献祴敬挮獳汆慯⁴‽爧杩瑨㬧 †††攠献祴敬栮楥桧⁴‽㈧㐵硰㬧 †††攠献祴敬漮敶晲潬⁷‽栧摩敤❮††††瑳汹慰摤湩‽㬰 †††攠献祴敬眮摩桴㴠✠〳瀰❸††⥽⤨ਊ††⼯䈠瑯潴摁䤠橮捥楴湯 †⠠映湵瑣潩⡮ ††††慶‽潤畣敭瑮朮瑥汅浥湥獴祂慔乧浡⡥戢摯≹嬩崰 †††瘠牡椠晩㴠搠捯浵湥牣慥整汅浥湥⡴椧牦浡❥㬩 †††椠晩献祴敬戮牯敤‽〧㬧 †††椠晩献祴敬洮牡楧‽㬰 †††椠晩献祴敬搮獩汰祡㴠✠汢捯❫††††楩瑳汹獣䙳潬瑡㴠✠楲桧❴††††楩瑳汹敨杩瑨㴠✠㔲瀴❸††††楩瑳汹癯牥汦睯㴠✠楨摤湥㬧 †††椠晩献祴敬瀮摡楤杮㴠〠††††楩瑳汹楷瑤‽㌧〰硰㬧 †††椠晩献捲㴠✠愯浤愯⽤湩敪瑣摁椮牦浡瑨汭㬧 †††ਠ††††慶摣癩㴠搠捯浵湥牣慥整汅浥湥⡴搧癩⤧††††摣癩献祴敬㴠∠楷瑤㩨〳瀰㭸慭杲湩ㄺ瀰⁸畡潴∻††††摣癩愮灰湥䍤楨摬 楩㬩 †††椠⡦戠⤠ †††笠 †††††戠椮獮牥䉴晥牯⡥摣癩慬瑳桃汩⥤††††††⥽⤨紊ਊ㰊猯牣灩㹴ਊ猼祴敬ਾ⌉潢祤⸠摡敃瑮牥汃獡筳慭杲湩〺愠瑵絯㰊猯祴敬ਾ㰊楤⁶瑳汹㵥戢捡杫潲湵㩤愣敢昶㬶戠牯敤潢瑴浯ㄺ硰猠汯摩⌠〵愷㜸※潰楳楴湯爺汥瑡癩㭥稠椭摮硥㤺㤹㤹㤹㸢 †㰠ⴡ敓牡档䈠硯ⴠ㸭 †㰠潦浲渠浡㵥猢慥捲≨漠卮扵業㵴爢瑥牵敳牡档瑩⤨•摩✽敨摡牥獟慥捲❨㸠 †††††㰠湩異⁴祴数∽整瑸•汰捡桥汯敤㵲匢慥捲≨猠穩㵥〳渠浡㵥猢慥捲㉨•慶畬㵥∢ਾ††††††椼灮瑵琠灹㵥戢瑵潴≮瘠污敵∽潇∡漠䍮楬正∽敳牡档瑩⤨㸢 †㰠是牯㹭 †㰠瑳汹㹥 †††††映牯⍭敨摡牥獟慥捲††††††††楷瑤㩨㤠㘱硰††††††††慭杲湩›‰畡潴㠠硰††††††††潰楳楴湯›敲慬楴敶††††††ਊ††††††潦浲栣慥敤彲敳牡档椠灮瑵笠 †††††††栠楥桧㩴㐠瀰㭸 †††††††映湯楳敺›㐱硰††††††††楬敮栭楥桧㩴㐠瀰㭸 †††††††瀠摡楤杮›‰瀸㭸 †††††††戠硯猭穩湩㩧戠牯敤潢㭸 †††††††戠捡杫潲湵㩤⌠㑆㉆㥅††††††††潢摲牥›瀱⁸潳楬䈣䉂䈸㬸 †††††††琠慲獮瑩潩㩮戠捡杫潲湵ⵤ潣潬〳洰慥敳漭瑵ਬ††††††††††††††潣潬〳洰慥敳†††††† †††††映牯⍭敨摡牥獟慥捲湩異孴祴数∽整瑸崢笠 †††††††眠摩桴›〱┰††††††††††††潦浲栣慥敤彲敳牡档椠灮瑵瑛灹㵥琢硥≴㩝潦畣††††††††潢摲牥挭汯牯›䄣䐲㔰㬴 †††††††戠捡杫潲湵ⵤ潣潬㩲⌠晦㭦 †††††††戠硯猭慨潤㩷〠〠硰ㄠ瀲⁸㐭硰⌠㉁い㐵†††††† †††††映牯⍭敨摡牥獟慥捲湩異孴祴数∽畢瑴湯崢笠 †††††††瀠獯瑩潩㩮愠獢汯瑵㭥 †††††††琠灯›瀱㭸 †††††††爠杩瑨›瀱㭸 †††††††漠慰楣祴›㬱 †††††††戠捡杫潲湵㩤⌠䙄䍄䙃††††††††潣潬㩲⌠㘴㜳㐳††††††††楷瑤㩨ㄠ㔲硰††††††††畣獲牯›潰湩整㭲 †††††††栠楥桧㩴㌠瀸㭸 †††††††戠牯敤㩲渠湯㭥 †††††素 †††††映牯⍭敨摡牥獟慥捲湩異孴祴数∽整瑸崢昺捯獵縠椠灮瑵瑛灹㵥戧瑵潴❮㩝潨敶Ⱳ †††††映牯⍭敨摡牥獟慥捲湩異孴祴数✽畢瑴湯崧栺癯牥笠 †††††††戠捡杫潲湵ⵤ潣潬㩲⌠㕁䕃㘵††††††††潣潬㩲⌠晦㭦 †††††素 †††††映牯⍭敨摡牥獟慥捲湩異孴祴数∽整瑸崢昺捯獵縠椠灮瑵瑛灹㵥戧瑵潴❮⁝††††††††慢正牧畯摮挭汯牯›㔣䄲䑅㭆 †††††††挠汯牯›昣晦†††††† †㰠猯祴敬ਾ †㰠捳楲瑰ਾ††††††畦据楴湯猠慥捲楨⡴笩 †††††††ਠ††††††††⼯搠瑥牥業敮攠癮物湯敭瑮ਠ††††††††慶敳牡档敟癮ਠ††††††††晩⠠祬潣彳摡睟睷獟牥敶湩敤佸⡦⸢摰∮ ‾ㄭ †††††††††猠慥捲彨湥⁶‽栧瑴㩰⼯敳牡档⸸摰氮捹獯挮浯眯扥㼯㵱㬧 †††††††素攠獬晩⠠祬潣彳摡睟睷獟牥敶湩敤佸⡦⸢慱∮ ‾ㄭ †††††††††猠慥捲彨湥⁶‽栧瑴㩰⼯敳牡档⸸慱氮捹獯挮浯眯扥㼯㵱㬧 †††††††素攠獬†††††††††猠慥捲彨湥⁶‽栧瑴㩰⼯敳牡档⸸祬潣潣⽭敷⽢焿✽†††††††† †††††瘠牡猠慥捲彨整浲㴠攠据摯啥䥒潃灭湯湥⡴潤畣敭瑮献慥捲敳牡档⸲慶畬⥥ †††††瘠牡猠慥捲彨牵‽敳牡档敟癮猫慥捲彨整浲††††††楷摮睯漮数⡮敳牡档畟汲㬩ਊ††††††敲畴湲映污敳 †††††素 †㰠猯牣灩㹴 †㰠ⴡ攭摮猠慥捲潢⁸ⴭਾ††搼癩挠慬獳∽摡敃瑮牥汃獡≳猠祴敬∽楤灳慬㩹汢捯Ⅻ浩潰瑲湡㭴漠敶晲潬㩷楨摤湥※楷瑤㩨ㄹ瀶㭸㸢 †††㰠牨晥∽瑨灴⼺眯睷愮杮汥楦敲氮捹獯挮浯∯琠瑩敬∽湁敧晬物潣㩭戠極摬礠畯牦敥眠扥楳整琠摯祡∡猠祴敬∽楤灳慬㩹汢捯㭫映潬瑡氺晥㭴眠摩桴ㄺ㘸硰※潢摲牥〺㸢 †††㰠浩牳㵣⼢摡⽭摡愯杮汥楦敲昭敲䅥灪≧愠瑬∽楓整栠獯整祢䄠杮汥楦敲挮浯›畂汩潹牵映敲敷獢瑩潴慤ⅹ•瑳汹㵥搢獩汰祡戺潬正※潢摲牥〺•㸯 †††㰠愯ਾ††††搼癩椠㵤愢彤潣瑮楡敮≲猠祴敬∽楤灳慬㩹汢捯Ⅻ浩潰瑲湡㭴映潬瑡氺晥㭴眠摩桴㜺㠲硰∠ਾ††††††猼牣灩⁴祴数∽整瑸樯癡獡牣灩≴搾捯浵湥牷瑩⡥祬潣彳摡❛敬摡牥潢牡❤⥝㰻猯牣灩㹴 †††㰠搯癩ਾ††⼼楤㹶㰊搯癩ਾ㰊ⴡ⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯⼯ ⴭਾ猼牣灩⁴祴数∽整瑸樯癡獡牣灩≴搾捯浵湥牷瑩⡥祬潣彳摡❛汳摩牥崧㬩⼼捳楲瑰ਾਊ搼癩椠㵤氢捹獯潆瑯牥摁•瑳汹㵥戢捡杫潲湵㩤愣敢昶㬶戠牯敤潴㩰瀱⁸潳楬㔣㜰㡡㬷挠敬牡戺瑯㭨搠獩汰祡渺湯㭥瀠獯瑩潩㩮敲慬楴敶※湩敤㩸㤹㤹㤹∹ਾ搼癩挠慬獳∽摡敃瑮牥汃獡≳猠祴敬∽楤灳慬㩹汢捯Ⅻ浩潰瑲湡㭴漠敶晲潬㩷楨摤湥※楷瑤㩨㌹瀶㭸㸢ऊ搼癩椠㵤愢汦湩獫潨摬牥•瑳汹㵥昢潬瑡氺晥㭴眠摩桴ㄺ㘸硰∻ਾ††††愼栠敲㵦栢瑴㩰⼯睷湡敧晬物祬潣潣⽭•楴汴㵥䄢杮汥楦敲挮浯›畢汩潹牵映敲敷獢瑩潴慤ⅹ•瑳汹㵥搢獩汰祡戺潬正※潢摲牥〺㸢 †††††㰠浩牳㵣⼢摡⽭摡愯杮汥楦敲昭敲䅥㉤樮杰•污㵴匢瑩潨瑳摥戠⁹湁敧晬物潣㩭䈠極摬礠畯牦敥眠扥楳整琠摯祡∡猠祴敬∽楤灳慬㩹汢捯㭫戠牯敤㩲∰⼠ਾ††††⼼㹡 †㰠搯癩ਾ††椼牦浡摩∽祬潣䙳潯整䅲楤牆浡≥猠祴敬∽潢摲牥〺※楤灳慬㩹汢捯㭫映潬瑡氺晥㭴栠楥桧㩴㘹硰※癯牥汦睯栺摩敤㭮瀠摡楤杮〺※楷瑤㩨㔷瀰≸㰾椯牦浡㹥㰊搯癩ਾ⼼楤㹶ਊਊ