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' Northern California, in general, has a richer history than Southern California. This is due to the fact that California first became popular to Americans bacause of the Gold, wich was in Northern California. Southern California started its industrial period in 1928 at the earliest. Mexican, or better said Spanish history in Northern California is practically as old, and equally as important as that of Southern California.

' The first Spanish settlement North of the present day North/SOuth boundary was in Monterey, were they set up a Presidio. The government headquarters of California has always been in the North.

' Californias first major city was San Francisco, wich was a full fledged city 80 years befor LA had running water. It was a comercial center for the gold miners, wich housed all the banks and financial institutions needed to run the gold rush. It was also a major port for imprting goods and people to work the mines.

' The revolution wich freed California of Mexico and passed it into American hands, too, had its start up North. The famous Bear Flag revolt occured in the city of Sonoma, and led to the abolishment of Mexican rule. Vallejo, who was the leader of the Mexican army, sympathized with the revolution, and was elected Californias first governer. The treaties and laws he tried to set up for the native Californian people were iradicated however. The new Calfornia owners were against the Mexicans and any one else who wasnt white.

' California was invaded by thousands of American, who were for the most part non- christian, iliterate, and unwanted in their native states. They squated and overan previously prosperous ranchos, wich the Mexicans had previously established. The law was on their side, and they later made the Mexicans appear to be the ignorant barbarians. This is an image wich I have personally encountered from many Anglos. Since the only 2 Mexicans they have seen in their life were busboys, they assume the entire Hispanic race is a group of ignorant monkeys. In the begining it was quite the opposite, and it is actually recorded in California laws who was really the ignorant monkeys. They made laws wich made all Mexicans non-citizens. They also, conveniantly, made laws wich made it illegal for non-citizens to speak in court. This is clearly anti-constitutional, but they let it ride.

' The Mexicans who owned the large prosperous ranchos were expropriated. They made laws wich required them to get new land titles, wich was impossible due to the fact that they werent citizens anymore, clearly breaching the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo. Thats nothing new in US history though. They have been breaching treaties since two days after they started writing them. Clearly the Americans wich set up modern California had no concept of the word 'honor'.

' One of the first cholos, in my opinion, was from Northern California. His name was Joaquim Murrieta. He was a bandido who robbed stage coaches, jumped claims, and killed white people at will. He has never been popularized in California due to anglos fearing him as an anti-white, wich he was. The story that was shown in the movie Zorro, although showing him as a hero, didnt show him in his full context. Joaquim Murrieta, who was half native american, had his moms family slaghtered by the American Army. They did not leave one member of her tribe alive. His brother was killed by the American army for presumably being a bandido. His brothers wife they hung for no reason. The era he lived in was very anti-everyone but white, after all he wouldnt even be alowed to speak in court. He had a very hard life full of hardship, and mainly hate. He started robbing stage coaches and killing all the guards that came with them. He also jumped claims, and over all lived up to the whole bandido image. A ransom was placed on his head, making one of Americas Most Wanted. He was chased by the American army throughout the San Joaquim valley. He was finally caught and beheaded. His head was allegedly preseved in whiskey and supposedly is still around, owned by a private party in San Francisco. It is clear that he was a criminal, but he was driven to it by injustice, wich is Californias state motto. There is a song in Spanish about Joaquim Murrieta sung by Vicente Fernandez, and later Lorenzo de Monteclaro. It contains my favorite verse of all time:"de Mexico es California, porque dios asi lo quizo, en mi sarape cosido traigo mi fe de bautizo," wich says basically: California belongs to Mexico or else god wouldnt have made it that way, and to prove it he has his baptism certificate wich states California, Mexico, because Joaquim Murrieta was baptized in California when it was still Mexico.

' The modern day barrios of Northern California sprung up much later. It is unclear to me wich is the oldest Norteno barrio. Wether it is older than any Sureno barrio is irrelevant, for the oldest Sureno barrio is not established. It is clear that Pachucos have been in Northern California a long time. I assume the oldest barrios in the Norte are either from Oakland, San Jo, or somewhere in the Bay Area. Barrios in the Norte have been around since long before the use of the number 14, or 13 for that matter. Their is a strong rivalry between the barrios of Northern and Southern California. The reasons they dont get along make little sense, like in most rivalrys.

' The traditionally accepted story is that in the California Prison System, Surenos and Nortenos had a schism. They allegedly got along at first, even though the geographical differences were always known. The Surenos, wich were much bigger than the Nortenos, disliked them and picked on them. The reasons they disliked them was because for the most part they were agrarian people, and mainly new imigrants from Mexico who were the only ones that would take field jobs. The Surenos considered themselves to be superior to the farmeros, and didnt like the image they gave the raza. The Nortenos considered the Surenos to be conceded and white washed. These rivalries were carried to the streets.

' The facts are hard to prove or disprove, but for the general the story is there. LA conty jail used to give out blue bandanas, wich ex prisoners wore on the streets with pride as a sign of earned respect. For this reason Nortenos chos the natural opposite of blue. This is the same reason the crips, who are older than the bloods, wear blue, a color wich has nothing to do with its name. Surenos apparently chose the number 13 because it was used by Maravillas, surenos associated with Mexicans however. Nortenos then chose 14 because N is the fourteenth letter. Now it seems that the Maravillas no longer get along with Surenos. The reason they still use the 13 is because it originally stood for Maravilla.

' The evolution of both has been ironic. In the sur, barrios wich are not predominantly Mexican, or not Mexican at all, associate the 13 with Sur. Examples are Chapines Trece, Armenian Power, Judas 13, Pinoy Real and various other Pinoy barrios. Mara Salvatrucha, conveniantly, claims the 13 for Mara, and is still sureno. The 14 is more universal because it could stand for North, abilitating every single gang in Norther California to use it.

' One of the largest and oldest Nort barrio is East Side Fresno Bulldogs. Aparently they no longer claim Norte but Bulldog Nation, still using the 14 for Nation. Either way they are in the Norte. They got their name off of the University in their barrio, whose mascot was the Bulldog, and whose color is conveniently maroon. I have heard from veteranos from San Fer that they are the traditional rivals, and have been since before the 14 and 13 started. I have also heard of vatos from Florencia rolling all the way to Fresno, because they claim the same initial:F14/F13. I have also heard the story vice versa, but few choose to remember this. Fresno is divide into sides, with the East and North Sides being Norteno, and the South Side being Sureno. The West Side is probably Norteno aswell.These boudaries are rarely observed, with everybody claiming on all sides. The traditional boundary for North and South is Bakersfield, although it is rarely observed. The only definite boundary is the LA county line, with every thing south bieng only south. North of that it all varies.

' Nortenos have probably been in Nevada longer than Surenos have, with barrios in Reno and Sparx. Surenos have probably been in Reno longer than they have been in Las Vegas or at least a long time, with Montello Street dating back to at least the early 80s. It is unclear how long Nortenos have been in Washington or oregon, but presumably a long time.

' One of the most celebrated Norteno barrios is San Fran Mission, wich now carries 24th street as part of its name, but it is unclear if it always did. Contrary to popular belief, they are far from being the largest Norteno barrio, and are actually smaller than most small town Norteno barrios. South San Fran is much bigger. It is, in my opinion, the Norteno barrio that closest resembles LA barrios, however. Oakland, San Jo, and the Bay Area in general resemble LA barrios more and more every day. Nortenos have traditionally been more united than Surenos, but lately are dividing more and more. This even in the face of a common adversary.

' The densest and maybe oldest Norteno region is by far San Jo. The oldest barrio in San JO is probably the oldest. It is divided into myriad cliques, wich may and may not be independant of each other.The barrios wich I have been informed about in San Jo are as follows: EL HOYO PALMA, TROPICANA VARRIO LOCOS, CAPITOL VARRIO LOCOS, BARRIO LOMAS, PACHUCOTOWN, HORSESHOE, BUENA SUERTE, TORTILLA FLATS, SMALL EAST SIDE, Aparently one of the largest barrios in the history of San Jo 14 has been Horseshoe wich was in East Side San Jo, wich reached its height in the late 70s and early 80s. One of the oldest barrios in San Jo and one of the deadliest has been El Hoyo Palma. Aparently Pachucotown has always claimed 13 but it is unclear whether that was for SUR. It is also the Norteno barrio wich has held out to the Sureno, or LA invasion. Contrary to Norteno belief, LA is not just invading the Norte, it is invading the Sur as well. In many other Sureno regions LA is considered a rival and causes them to unite against LA. IE and OC are just two examples. Oakland is also dense in barrios, and apparently has alot of seperate regions or sides with in itself. One common thing in Norteno barrios is there Geographic names, with few names being made up. Even if they have a made up name they still claim allegiance to their city first. In the Sur claiming the same city is the greatest reason for not geting along. I have heard of few Norteno barrios that pledge allegiance to thier name before their city. Example: NS 18ST is worst enemies with North Hollywood Boyz. It is hard to even find sureno barrios that get along with other barrios in the same gegraphic area.

' I know for a fact that there have been barrios in LA wich claimed 14, during a small period when 14 was not asociated with Norte yet, or maybe it was associated with Norte. I wonder if ther has ever been a barrio in the Norte wich claimed 13 and later went to Norte. If any barrio I believe San Fran and Oakland would have had reason too. They are more similar in background to LA, than Modesto or Stockton. They are far from being farmers, and most likely were always predominantly Chicanos. I could see San Fran having a rivalry with LA, but on the same token they have a rivalry with Oakland. As far as I know San Fran Mission and ES Oakland have always claimed Norte and 14. They may have been the first to use this number. Has there ever been a Norteno barrio wich claimed trece in the past??? Did San Fran always claim 14???Did Oakland and San JO??? I saw in Teen Angels #35 on the very last page a placazo that said ' Villa Boys Pasa 14,''catorce, une four, uno cuatro.' This means Villa Boys claimed 14, but it never said Norte, though this is now implied with14. In this style did any barrio in the Norte ever choose to align itself with the 13, wich in no point implies sur, it just stands for Mexican. It could be Villa Boys just used the 14 because they did not get along with any other barrio in Pasadena, so chose to use the 14 as opposed to 13. I have heard of this happening recently, with Culver City, wich at one point allegedly had Boys, Locos, and a barrio that didnt get along with either that chose to use 14, and wear red. It must not have got popular, and probably just switched to 13 but chose a different city to claim. San Fran and Oakland never aligned themselves with LA, wich would shaw that the Sur and Norte rivalry go back farther than is assumed. Why didnt small town Surenos wich resemble small town Nortenos not align with each other??? And why did LA align itself with small town Surenos, who in many cases were farmers and new imigrants as well???

' The modern day Sureno and Norteno have flipped rolls. If you take a Sureno up North from today 30 years ago, he would be a Norteno up North. If you take a sureno from LA 30 years ago to the Norte today he would be a Norteno. If you bring a Norteno from 30 years ago to the Norte, he would be a Sureno today. If you take a Norteno from today to LA 30 years ago he would be a Sureno. Any combination with Sur, Norte and 30 years would work. Except even without the thirty year variable it would still work. A small town Norteno today and a small town sureno today are the same. A big city Norteno today and a big city Sureno today are the same thing. Back in the day most Surenos were one way and most Nortenos were one way. Now they are all all ways. English as first language, illegal aliens, small town, big city, out of state, big barrio, small barrio. Most of the Norte is still small towns, but thats were Surenos are invading the most. So if Surenos like the big city, why do they start so much in small towns. If Nortenos are all small towns, they should be able to take over various parts of the sur, and especially Texas.

' This is my explanation. There are various reasons and various means by wich Surenos are spreading. One reason is that Surenos have been getting deported and in large numbers for a long time. The deportees go to there pueblos, wich are mainly in Mexico, El Salvador, and Guatemala. There they start satellite cliques of thier Sureno barrios. These cliques sometimes take over the entire youth population of the pueblo. Then people from this pueblo come to the US, and in MS' case all over the world, and start satellite cliques off of satillite cliques. These cliques then may take over the whole town they move too, ot join with other Surenos to create anew barrio. This phenomena has cuased Mexico, El Salvador, and Guatemala to become de facto Surenos, with new independent barrios that start also claiming Sur. Another reason is because many new imigrants move around alot before finding a place they feel comfortable in. They first live in Southern California and later move to Northern California, or otherwise. With their kids claiming Sur, they transplant Sur two one or more places, anywhere in the US, and in MS' case other countries. Another reason is that sometimes, families wich have been in the US along time, and maybe many generations, have kids that are very deep into their barrio, and therefor choose to move out of the ghetto, inadvertently moving to another ghetto in Northern California or otherwise. Their kids, wich are cutting edge gangsters, well skilled in the art of recruiting, start satellite cliques wherever they move. Another reason, and contrary to popular belief, the least popular reason, is to move to another city with the purpose of starting a satellite clique. Within LA this may be more popular, but for someone to move in to definitively enemy territory for the purpose of recruiting or slanging is highly unorthodox. The only way this would happen is if by coincidence someone moved onto a neighborhood wich was supposedly enemy, but finds it to have a huge void spot or a target group wich doesnt like the barrio already there. This would be a prime target for expansion. If the local barrio is really disliked by a certain group of people already there, this certain group of people would go out of its way to join an enemy barrio. This doesnt always mean that in the Norte they would automatically become Surenos, but since most Nortenos are united, and would consider any one who does not like one Norteno group to also be enemies of their group, it is the only solution. In LA this isnt a problem because if a group does not like the barrio they are in, they would find dozens of Surenos wich would take them. Some Surenos would join up a clique by this method and become new rivals with the local barrio than pass up that many new members. They would do this sometimes even they are close friends with the local barrio. For these reasons, or a combination thereof, Surenos will likely spread anywhere. If they are in downtown San Fran and East Oakland, where couldnt they start. Up Norte the Surenos are usually united, as opposed to in the South.

' It is possible for Nortenos to start one clique in LA, but it is impossible to start one coherent clique in two places. I am not saying this because I am a Sureno, but the Sur is to vicious and harsh for Nortenos to ever get deep there. In the Sur even people wich are not in barrios have at least one relative who is, or are close friends with someone. These people may not always join barrios, but they have an unpledged allegiance to the Sur. Taging crews, even though they may not get along with most barrios, still have some kind of respect for the Sureno institution. Im sure there are alot of people in the Norte that you can say the same thing about. Surenos just had fate on thier side. Being closer to Mexico is probably there greatest advantage.

' One thing I dont understand is this. If Nortenos were traditionally the migrant farm workers, then im sure many of them had to get deported. When they did why did they fail so greatly to start satellite cliques in Mexico or anywhere else. I know Guatemalans and Salvadorans have been illegal aliens up North and even in Canada as long, and many times longer than in the South. So why did they never start cliques in Latin America??? It would seem that if anybody they could start cliwues in Mexico. The region of Mexico wich most Surenos come from is called El Norte, because it is in the North of Mexico. The most popular Mexican bands carry the word Norte in their name, like Los Tigres del Norte, los Hurracanes del Norte, and dozens of others. It seems almost improbable that any body from this region of Mexico would even think about claiming Sur or Surenos. They have a sort of rivalry with the Sur region of Mexico themselves. Bit still they are Surenos by gang, Nortenos by birth. In Mexico a popular phrase in coridos or assumption in corridos says,"sabian que eran valientes, porque eran del mero Norte." This means they are from the extreme Northern regions of Mexico, like Reynosa, Laredo, Tijuana, and loosley Monterey Nuevo Leon. In Mexican myth, men from these regions are the bravest and posses the most heart. With all of this I havent even heard of one Norteno barrio in Mexico. Im sure there is individual Nortenos, but no succesful clique. That might change, but Surenos are so deeply rooted in Mexico and El Salvador, that it would be unlikely.

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