"Weavers Words" Vol. 1 Iss. 49 Compiled By David Collins Owned By Weavers Everywhere Date Sent September 23, 1997 Subscribers 326 Back Issues http//www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/5998/ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Re: "Weavers Words" V. 1 I. 48 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:40:46 -0500 From: "Frederick A. Kogler" Organization: All About Baskets To: davidc@iei.net References: 1 David, thanks for the time and energy you expend helping us all to share with one another. What you do is a good thing, and I appreciate it very much. This morning (5:13 AM) I am confronted with the task of setting up for our guild meeting. We meet in a school gym in West St. Paul, MN and are called "Basket Weavers Guild - Midwest" We're still new at this matter of organization, program planning and getting to know one another, but I must say that I have met some of the finest people I know in the last few months by attending our meetings and associating with the weavers who have come to be a part of BWG-M. The biggest problem I have is that my 28 hour day is not long enough to get it all done! Living life to the fullest is what it's called I guess, but whew! I am working on learning about dye at the present time. I am not a trained chemist so a can't discuss such things as pigmentation, salt content and variations with commercial dye products, but this is what I am doing so far: I have 41 samples of dye from Paul Moshimer of Cushing Perfection Direct Dye...I have prepared little pieces of reed from scrap and have the goal to see how I get the best color, color fastness and process before our little store offers it to our weaving friends. I take a small amount of water, add a small amount of table salt and bring it to a boil. Then I introduce the dye into the rolling boil solution. Then I add my reed pieces and let them boil for about five minutes. Once this is done the reed is removed to air dry completely. Once dried I try a cold water rinse to see if there is any residual coloring that would lend itself to bleeding or running while weaving! I then wipe dry with a paper towel or rag and let the reed air dry until I'm ready to use it....It works great and I have had very little or no problem with color transfer...I will spray my color reed just before using it to make it pliable, but I do not soak it. I have not had a problem with this process. I have read the materials that were called "dying tips" left by so many fine people and collected at . I think that the key to most of it is the high temperature of the water when dying organic material. It would seem that the hot water opens the grain, "porous organic material" and allows the dye pigmentation to penetrate more evenly and deeply. any thoughts on this anyone? I would be happy to hear of books or articles on this matter. I have begun to work with the black ash splints that I have by using a sanding method versus the hand splitting method. It took me a while to fine tune my sanding machine but it works pretty well now. I use a carrier board with double stick tape to sand in the thousandths of inches category...no I'm not able to offer it for sale...but if you like a few samples pieces let me know...I'll send them off to you...you would have to pay the postage :o)...and that as time allows! If your interested in our BWG-M let me know and I'll have some materials sent to you pronto! -- Frederick A. Kogler, Sr. Associate Pastor Emanuel Ev. Lutheran Church U.A.C. of St. Paul, MN 1637 Allen Ct. West St. Paul, MN 55118-3802 http://www.concentric.net/~fkogler fkogler@concentric.net frederi964@AOL.com @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: DW Basket Chat On Saturday Nights... Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:02:08 -0400 From: Craig Weber To: "Collins, David" Hello Everyone! I understand there has been some "difficulty" in finding our chat room...I don't know why as we have been meeting every Saturday night for several weeks now! In case you might have the URL wrong here is the info. again: http://www.bcwan.net/~cweber When you get to the homepage scroll down and click on "DW Baskets Chat Room". Fill in your name, or nickname if you prefer, when you get to the blue screen and just hit "connect". That's it! Why don't you bookmark the site so you have it handy each week. We usually start around 9:00PM Eastern time. Last week there were over 10 people at one time from around the world chatting about basketry and it was WONDERFUL!!! We've had people from Germany, Iraq, Korea, Japan, the UK as well as all over the US! People stop by throughout the evening so you never know who will be popping in or who you will be chatting with next! So, please stop by for a spell and we can chat about some interesting topics. We have discussed new design ideas for the fall/holiday season, quick "gift basket" type baskets, different weaving techniques and so forth. It is always fun and informative! Please remember that you do need to have a Java enabled browser. If you receive a message upon trying to connect that you do not have Java go to: http://parachat.webpage.com/faq.htm This site supports our chat room and will answer any questions you may have about connecting to the chat room, and how to download a browser that is Java enabled if you would like to do so. Also, PLEASE do not hesitate to contact me personally by e-mail. I will help you in whatever way I can. I look forward to chatting with you each Saturday night! If there is a better time during the week that is more convenient for you PLEASE either e-mail me or post a note here on W.W. and we'll work it out. Hope to chat with you all soon! Happy Weaving## Donna Weber DW Baskets cweber@cbcc.bcwan.net http://www.bcwan.net/~cweber P.S. I second the motion to change the subject from pattern writing since we cannot seem to discuss this topic in a constructive manner. Too many people are getting hurt in the process and this forum was not designed for that. Let's all just take a deep breath and start discussing something new! I do hope that the people who have already been hurt can set aside what has happened and continue participating in W.W. I know how difficult that can be, but let's all try to get past this... @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Vladimir Yarish, Russian Weaver Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:30:04 -0400 From: "Ann H. Ridgeway" Organization: AnnCrafted To: davidc@IEI.NET Greetings to all after a long hiatus on my part. I've barely scanned WW for months now as we're been working to get the studio addition done. Finished, it's not quite with still some painting to do, but moving in I am. It's been quite a lot of hard work over the summer, but I've developed muscles where there weren't any and lost 10 pounds (isn't that a shame!), but it's all worth it. The first guest to break in the studio will be Vladimir Yarish, who arrives the 28th. We have a busy schedule planned for him in Massachusetts, Long Island, NY, Michigan, and here. I hope we have the stamina! I'm still working on his patterns because that concept is foreign to him. Believe me, I'm trying my best for perfection. . . For those of you on the South Shore area (south of Boston), Vladimir will give his slide presentation in Pembroke on Friday, 10 October. He will also teach there on Saturday, and I think Friday also. He'll have baskets for sale at the Heritage Plantation's Basket Day, Sandwich, on the Cape. Dianne Stanton is coordinating the classes there. (THANK YOU, Dianne!!!) For anyone in the metro Washington, DC, area, the High Country Basketry Guild will be hosting Vladimir for a slide presentation and workshop on October 17th. This is free and open to the public at the Packard Center, Annandale Community Park, 4022 Hummer Road, Annandale, VA. This is just inside the Beltway off Route 236. He is also teaching a class on the 19th, and as of this date it isn't quite filled. I will be happy to send specific directions and/or forward names to Lorraine Wieskamp for anyone interested. After that, we run home, pack the car, and head for AMB. Ann Ridgeway, Alexandria, VA PS, has anyone received a third issue of "Interwoven NEWS"? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Re: plastic basket liners Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 10:53:25 EDT From: Devon_Branca@mlsonline.com (Devon Branca) Organization: MLS Online To: davidc@iei.net (David Collins) CC: bbaskets@forbin.com (Roberta Huisman) To Berta: You can reach Tracy Welch (and ask for a copy of her catalog which contains several different sizes of plastic basket liners) by sending her e-mail at: BASKWEV@aol.com You can see an example of these liners by going to: http://www.basketpatterns.com and looking for her name and the pattern, Round Rose Basket with Liner They look quite nice and the prices (especially the wholesale prices) seem reasonable. BTW, I have a suggestion. When we have an answer for a particular person can we all think to send a Cc (copy) to that person when we reply to WW? This way the person gets the answer quickly, and yet we all get to share the reply in WW. Kudos go to all who felt the need to defend me lately :o). It is difficult to stand up for something alone--so thanks. Hope some of you didn't feel I was out of line or being rude. I just thought that weavers, as a group, should strive to be at our best and be able to enjoy our art. Cheri Branca ***MLS Online-An Internet BBS. (www.mlsonline.com) Focus: Family, Business & Education. Voice Support: 716-454-5577 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Hmmm-m-m. Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:35:04 -0700 From: "Grace and Forrest Davis" To: "Weaver's Words" Hey Everybody. . . Sorry about the Web Page obstacles and turning you all into a test bed. . . agree there ought to some way of making the pictures easier to load. In fact, I noted another site showed pictures ~50 times less dense than those I loaded (e.g.. ~7K versus ~350K). I'll check for some way to shrink the size without sacrificing fidelity. Hmmm-m-m. As for Grace--she's there! Honest! Understand, of course, I had to gain the virtual webmeister's approval for all displays, and she's a reluctant model. So I slipped her in the bottom right corner of the Backyard Sampler image. . . with her unwitting consent! Now, without intimate knowledge of FTP Icon Connection protocols and HTML code, she's at MY MERCY! Moo-har-har. (Pretty bold, huh? I figure I can fast for 30 days before incurring permanent bodily harm.) Judy Olney: knowing you might see a less than stellar version of your Cherokee Market Basket, I meticulously built secret firewalls and other obstacles denying access to anyone named "Olney," "Ol' Nee," "Old Knee," or any variant thereof . . . (your clever reputation precedes you). Sorry. Sincerely, Forrest (PS. Actually, Judy, I'm at a loss. Would you mind trying again with a 'cut and paste' of the URL below? Thanks, Forrest) (PPS. Where is Billie Dorris these days?) (PPPS. Grace says Hi!) -- Grace and Forrest Davis 118 Mills Circle Ft Huachuca, Arizona 85613 (520) 417-9325 lamar@c2i2.com http://www.c2i2.com/~lamar/SimpleThings.html @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Weaver's Words Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:40:14 -0400 From: "Eric and Stacey Taylor" To: Hello to all you fellow weavers, I have a question, has anyone ever come across a pattern for a cornucopia basket? A friend of mine asked me if I had one or knew of where to find one and I do not know but she has spiked my interest. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I also would like to know if anyone knows of a place to get tags for our baskets that have a picture pre-made on them. Anyone can email me or just respond to Weaver's Words if they have any info pertaining to my two questions. Thanks in advance. Stacey in Maine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: organizing Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 20:59:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary319@aol.com To: davidc@iei.net I have been weaving baskets off and on for about 10 yrs, more off then on. My reed usually stays in a large rubbermaid type tote. When I need some I have to dig and then try to figure out what it is. I'm wondering how others organize their stuff. I'm hoping if I can get better organized it will inspire me to do more. It is very discouraging to want to do a basket and have to face untangling and resorting each time. Any Suggestions? Thanks Mary Mary319@aol.com @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: chat room Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 00:11:00 -0700 From: "Mandy's Hopechest" To: davidc@iei.net Hello fellow weavers! I have also gone to the chat room a few times and found I was all alone. Maybe if we picked one night it would be easier for everyone to be on at that time. Getting ready for fall sales.....back to weaving! Amanda Popelka @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Re: "Weavers Words" V. 1 I. 48 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:17:03 -0400 From: "Kim Renich" To: Hello Again, I enjoy reading the differences of opinions on this list. Not all agree with mine, not all agree with others. It is good to see ALL sides of an issue no matter what the topic. Perhaps there's a point we each have overlooked and by everyone voicing their thoughts/feelings we can better understand one another. What really saddens me are the people I know who will not write in for fear of being jumped on. This ought to tell us all something. It appears that there is a clique on this list and anyone who dares to disagree is bashed. The most recent post I am referring to is that of Marty Holihan's (although this is not the ONLY one I am referring to) Yes, Marty was harsh in her post, however, did you notice that she started her post with the fact that she couldn't take anymore! In other words, she had seen enough bashing and pettiness to get her fill. Folks, this is called provocation. I do not know Marty personally, however I am quite sure she didn't wake up one morning and decide to write that post just to cause trouble. The trouble had been started long ago, and she got her fill. Comments like "with just a little care, patterns could be drastically improved" is extremely provoking. This insinuates that most patterns are sloppy... and that most writers don't care about their work. There ARE some bad patterns out there, but this particular statement does not apply to MOST, so why make such a statement? Another very provoking statement I read was "Gosh, just proofreading the pattern would be a big help..." This statement implies that we don't even look at our patterns before they are put into print. I personally, found these statements to be insulting. Most people who put patterns into print have taken a GREAT deal of care and concern, after all, it's their name that is on the line. Nobody wants other weavers to say, "Oh... HER pattern? It was horrible, she can't even spell, and didn't give proper instructions, don't waste your money" etc... who wants to be known like that? So when you are degrading the way a FEW writers have written their patterns, you also need to keep in mind the MANY excellent patterns out there as well. Maybe I missed it, but I certainly don't recall anyone who was bashing typos and errors, make ANY positive comments on the wonderful patterns on the market. It seems as though there are a few "posters" out there who are just waiting to pounce on people. It also appears that it is ok for certain people to make negative comments and go unscathed, but others aren't even allowed to have a difference of opinion. 2+2 = 5. As to the snowflake question, I've found what works best for me is Aleene's tacky glue. (It dries pretty clear) I never tried the glue gun because I work with the reed wet... I tried woodglue, but found that when it dried, I could see small dabs of yellow glue. I also use tons of the alligator clips from Radio shack when I make the snowflakes. The most beautiful snowflakes I've ever made were woven with 1/4" maple strips. It's expensive, but they are just so much prettier. Occasionally I have sprayed them with spray glitter when they were finished. Dare I sign this.... The Headless Weaver @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Willow for sell Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:22:54 -0500 From: "Ronald E. Harrison" To: Just wanted to let all the weavers/makers know that starting in Jan. 1998- we will have English varieties of basket willow for sell. If anyone is interested, please contact us by email for strains available and prices. This willow is grown by us in KY- it is not imported. Order early!!!!!! Thanks for the great job you are doing, David. We enjoy Weavers Words! Ron and Bobbie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: taking tools along Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:28:28 -0400 From: "The Rigterinks" To: Hello everyone! I need some help and I knew right away that this was the place to get it! Michigan's convention is coming in about a month(yes yes yes) and for one of my classes I need to take with just about every tool I own. My problem is that I don't have a convenient way to do this. In the past, a majority of my convention classes provided the tools for the students. My question is, is there a basket or something that you use for this purpose? I figure that has to be something out there somewhere! As always, any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated. David, keep up the good work. Keep weaving Diane @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Re: "Weavers Words" V. 1 I. 48 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:19:07 -0500 From: Tracy Reynolds To: davidc@iei.net Thank you so much for the info. I am going to check it out. Happy Trails, Miss Lisa @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Weaver's Words Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:37:58 -0400 From: "Joy Moody" To: Hi Everyone! Darleena: Yes, I am having that cup of tea today! Maine has turned cool. Yesterday we picked 2 peach baskets full of apples. Today is the winter cinnamon applesauce project...........always a big deal, but fun to fill the house with that lushious smell. Soon I will be headed to Geneva, New York to study Nantuckets with John McGuire. This will be my first attempt at that style & I am excited! We will also stop on the way back at Sturbridge Village, Plimoth Plantation, & Shaker Village (all historical sites from different eras). Hope to see baskets in each. For those of you in New Hampshire, does anyone know if the Colby Inn in Henniker is still open? Forrest & Grace: You're web site is looking good! One of the things we've learned is that you can speed up the loading time on pictures by cutting the color on full color photos by 50%. For most pictures you can not tell the difference. If you have any questions e-mail Dan at danmoody@mint.net Speaking of web sites folks, PLEASE NOTE that Sign of the Crow's "under construction" page is FINALLY up. The site design, which is slated to be pretty extensive, is done. We are now working page by page to bring you baskets, peeks at both the house & barn studios, shopping, bulletin board etc. Since many browsers see things differently, your feedback will be appreciated! Judith Olney: Thanks for the site to check the virus library - a good thing to know about. Jacki in St. Paul: I am on your team! If you find out anything about German basketmaking please let me know. That is my ancestry. I have written to several basketmakers who went to Germany, but have not received any replys. We are all so busy. I have ONE picture of a German basket in a photo taken on my Great Great Grandparents porch. It appears to have a scalloped edge. I can not tell the materials, but I assume rye straw, among other things, was common. Lois: I agree with Jocelyn! We need more people coming forward & participating to make this digest informative & interesting. Please don't back away. I'm sure we'll banter from time to time, but we have the ability to re-focus on more productive chatter. Come on LURKERS!!!!!!!!! Come out of the woodwork & let us know what you are working on, what you've found works well & why. My latest project followed the cafe show where I hung a pail style basket with a swing handle. The cafe owner wants something similar, only with flared sides, to stand several loaves of French bread up in. I recommend, if you haven't tried it, finding a restaurant or cafe that will let you hang a display. It adds interest to the atmosphere, & all of my baskets have gotten great visibility in that "social" location. Handouts disappear like hotcakes. I have just realized how much colder my office is in the Fall! Off to grab another hot tea. Till next time............................ Joy Moody Sign of the Crow www.signofthecrow.com @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Decorations for baskets Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:55:41 -0400 From: "Carolyn Megginson" To: davidc@iei.net Hi Fellow Basketmakers. I've been pretty quiet lately. Been doing a lot of work for shows and trying to find new outlets. I have a rather large group for classes and most of these women want decorations on front of baskets. I find the cost of a lot to be rather high. Does anyone know of a source where we could purchase a quantity for a lesser price. I could paint and sand. I am looking forward to this group. We have a nice large cabin and the men will be fixing Brunswick Stew. I have shows and another class before Christmas. I can't find anything around here in December. Everything is filled up. Oh, well I guess we can all take a month or two off. David I am so sorry to hear of your illness. I can't imagine the effort that you give all the weavers. We owe you a debt that can never be repaid. You have to be a very special person. Thank You. Now lets forget all the pettiness of late and get in the true spirit of basketmaking or weaving. Thanks Again, Carolyn Megginson Suffolk, Va. carolynm@hearts.tez.net @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Walnut Hint Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:01:05 -0500 From: monast@iquest.net To: davidc@iei.net Just a quickie for those who make walnut dye from scratch - particularly in large amounts. Instead of panty hose or cheese cloth, I have found mesh nylon bags at the paint stores that are great. They come in 1 gallon and 5 gallon sizes (I use 5gallon) They have an elastic edge. The bag itself does not stretch to kingdom come and rinses beautifully for repeated uses. I insert one inside an empty plant/tree bucket with the holes in the bottom - (for support). I then ladle or use a pitcher to pour my heated walnuts into the bucket. Beautiful clean walnut dye drains out the bottom. Another version is to fill the bag with the walnuts and place in a big kettle of water and simmer for awhile. Swish like you would a big tea bag every once in awhile. An all day rain has settled in and I'm rejoicing. Must go prepare a large egg basket. Have a demonstration coming up and find this to be a good take and make it basket. Rainy in Yorktown IN Kristin @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Weavers Words Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:22:22 -0400 From: Richard Calvert Organization: Calvert's Wholesale, Inc. To: davidc@iei.net Hi everyone--I have a quick question. I am trying to find Roberta Huisman of Parkersburg, Iowa. She has written some patterns that I would like to purchase for my basketry supply business. Roberta, are you out there? If you are, or if anyone knows how I can contact her, please email me privately. There is no address or phone # on her patterns. Thanks! Kathi Calvert KMC Baskets & Folkart rcal@concentric.net @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: National Geographic Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:59:31 -0400 From: "Kim Renich" To: Hi Everyone, I found an interesting article in the September 97 National Geographic magazine. There is a sepia photograph of 2 men wearing baskets upside down on their heads with a thick fabric cushion tucked inside. The article says that wicker baskets and seat cushions doubled as crash helmets! The article was referring to ballooning of course, back around 1931. This article was called Basket Cases. Kim Goldsboro, NC @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Subject: Denise Smallidge - Issue 48 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:03:22 -0400 From: David Morningstar To: David Collins Hi Denise I'm writing in answer to your question regarding carving handles. I'm new to the Weaver's Words. A friend, Marty, turned me onto it. I've found it quite interesting. Thanks Marty! I've gone to McColley's Basketry School for the past ten years. (I told my husband I hadn't graduated yet and he believed me). Anyway, carving handles is easiest to work when the wood is green. You can keep it for several days after cutting it in a shady area, just hose it down lightly and put a tarp over it until you're ready to work it. It's necessary to have a good carving knife, small chisel, a small saw, a draw knife and a shave horse. I don't know how much you know about carving, and I don't want to talk down to you, so I'll just give you information. A shave horse holds the wood in a stationery position and allows you to work half of the handle at a time. When you've roughed out one side, you turn it around and rough out the other. Before you rough out the handle, you have to start with a billet. That's a pie wedge shape from the log. You remove the bark and get a squarish shape of wood the length you want for the handle tip to tip. You do this with a draw knife and a shave horse. I've found the best way, and the way Tom McColley teaches you, is to use a piece of scrap reed and take a pencil to measure how far down you want the handle in your basket, mark the rim area around to the other side, marking the rim area and down into your basket again. This does let you decide how high of a handle you want. Take your piece of straight wood and pencil your markings on it. You use the saw to cut the notches sawing on the top and bottom of your notch. Then make several saw marks into the wood inbetween those marks. You then turn the handle on it's side and using the chisel, remove the notch. Gosh, this is so much easier to show than to explain. I then use my carving knife to get rid of unwanted wood. Then sand. I use rough paper then switch to finer and finer. It's imperative to work the wood green and finish your handle within a few hours of your start. You have to bend that handle and if the wood dries out too quickly, you will have a hard time bending it into shape and you'll hear an awful crack! That usually means you have to trash that handle and start all over. YUCK! A tip: When bending the handle, work a very small area at a time. Don't take both ends and bend. Do it very gently across the handle in small movements. AGAIN, it's so much easier to show than to explain. I hope this helps you. If anyone is interested, Connie and Tom McColley's Basketry School, which is located in Chloe, W. VA. is worth every penny you'll spend there. It's not only a great basket school, but they are wonderful people that share their knowledge with you not to mention their home and the food is GREAT! Ruthanne Morningstar Dryden, Michigan David Morningstar Mstar@mich.com 76247.2753@CompuServe.com @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If for any you would ever like to cancel your subscription, simply send me a message with "unsubscribe" as your subject.